Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Libyan Blunders Keep On Giving  
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4539 times:

Just seems like no end to the bad new for this administration.
Here's todays good news:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...s-equipment-stolen-in-libya-raids/

Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

On the upside the administration is working wonders for Putin.
From today's WSJ:

wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324094704579066774128762480.html?mod=hp_opinion

[Edited 2013-09-11 17:56:49]


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4524 times:

That article can't be real. Is it an Onion piece?

Terrorists can't get a hold of carbines: If I knew how to copy and paste I'd show you pictures of Libyans with AK 47s dating back to 1958.

Terrorists can't get a hold of night vision goggles: I can get some from the internet...does Libya have an internet? (maybe they stole one from the Special Internet Forces)

Terrorists can't a hold of laser pointers: uuuhhh, I can't even bring myself to repeat the above.

Is there anyone with a brain left at Fox News or do they just pander to people who would actually re-port their drivel as if it contained any kind of factual insight? I guess I'll have to go with "no" and "yes" on this final double Geopardee question.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 1):

Terrorists can't get a hold of carbines: If I knew how to copy and paste I'd show you pictures of Libyans with AK 47s dating back to 1958.

Terrorists can't get a hold of night vision goggles: I can get some from the internet...does Libya have an internet? (maybe they stole one from the Special Internet Forces)

Terrorists can't a hold of laser pointers: uuuhhh, I can't even bring myself to repeat the above.

Is there anyone with a brain left at Fox News or do they just pander to people who would actually re-port their drivel as if it contained any kind of factual insight? I guess I'll have to go with "no" and "yes" on this final double Geopardee question.

Fox News seems to be quoting somebody. Are you hurt that they reported this at all? And I'd bet good money that those stolen weapons represent a nice step up in capability from what the average Libyan militia member is currently using.

In other news from Libya, a large bomb exploded outside the former US Embassy in Benghazi, now housing the foriegn ministry. AlQueda has opened up smuggling routes from the sout to fund itself. The police, army and government have made no presence and chaos is growing. You don't even have to go to Fox News to read all that in today's news.

Libya was a blunder.

[Edited 2013-09-11 18:43:35]

User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 3014 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Fox News seems to be quoting somebody.

Yeah.... who ?????

A "source".... well... who ????

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
And I'd bet good money that those stolen weapons represent a nice step up in capability from what the average Libyan militia member is currently using.

Just like the "militia" in Syria, getting hold of weapons given to them by the US   

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...s-usa-rebels-idUSBRE9891EZ20130910

Quote from said article.

"The United States is providing lethal assistance "because they are sure that the mechanisms that the SMC has established are well tested and they will be sure that the weapons are not falling into the wrong hands," Saleh said."

I wouldn't be so sure at the end of the day, that they don't turn out to be the "wrong hands" though. Like its happened before.

But you guys have been involved in some many ME conflicts, its hardly surprising captured/seized weaponry has fallen into the wrong hands during this time.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Libya was a blunder.

And it wont be the last blunder either. There is another one just about to go off !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinepowerslide From Canada, joined Oct 2010, 571 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4479 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Libya was a blunder.

It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.


User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1125 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):
It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.

I don't think in the west there is a understanding that places like Afghanistan and Libya are basically living 200 years in the past if not more. It will take 2-3 generations with a solid public education system before you see real change. Many of these places didn't really hit the industrial revolution until about WWII.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

*facepalm* Not this sh*t again....

Rebels in Syria have Western weapons, therefore, Obama needs to be impeached!

That is the line of thinking among those in the "news" room at FOX. They just can't stand that Obama did something without invading and "nation building" like their hero.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

We still don't know crap about what happened in Benghazi last year.

And this year another huge bombing took place....where's your news coverage of THAT, CNN? ?????????



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4384 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):
It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.

Shows your lack of understanding of how things work in the area and that rather idiotic and misguided notion that "democracy" works for everybody.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 5):

Is this opinion of Libya based on having traveled to or lived in the country?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):

You may find that the situation is a bit more complex than cowards running away in the face of the bogeyman al Qaeda.

The current unrest is less about wanting to install any kind of Islamic emirate and more a reflection of clashes between different interest groups. At stake are matters like who will have access to political influence, resources, profitable contracts and jobs. Some groups may use the language of Islam if it suits them. Others argue over whether Libya should have a more centralised structure or should there be greater regional autonomy. The recent disruption to oil exports is an illustration of this.

In between, there are the mass of Libyans who just want to go about living their lives and who have no desire to live in another century, however much people in the West comfort themselves with that notion.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1357 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Libya was a blunder.

Whilst the transition of Libya's government isn't going as smoothly as we would like, I would say that the removal of a murderous autocrat in a manner that minimized civilian (and western military) deaths was reasonably successful. I'm sure the families of UTA 772 and Pan Am 103 victims are happy to see the end of Gaddafi.

Not everything is good, but there is progress.
http://www.libyaherald.com/2013/01/2...dom-success-stories/#axzz2eeZjH6OQ
http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2012/09/libya

Quote:
The most striking outcome of the congressional election in July was the relative failure of the Islamists, whose main party, Justice and Construction, allied to the Muslim Brotherhood, got only 17 out of the 80 seats elected by proportional representation on party lists, whereas a coalition of secularists, liberals and milder Islamists won 39
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
And this year another huge bombing took place....where's your news coverage of THAT, CNN? ?????????

Um here?
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/11/wo...ca/libya-benghazi-blast/index.html

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Just seems like no end to the bad new for this administration.

Especially when you use fox news as a source.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
That is the line of thinking among those in the "news" room at FOX. They just can't stand that Obama did something without invading and "nation building" like their hero.

But if he did do nation building they would crucify him for A) the cost and B) any american lives lost. You can't win with them and I hope Obama isn't wasting his time trying....and I'm not even a liberal.

As ever, just my 2c.  Smile

[Edited 2013-09-11 22:46:03]


First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Shows your lack of understanding of how things work in the area and that rather idiotic and misguided notion that "democracy" works for everybody.

Indeed, democracy certainly does not work in Northern African and Middle Eastern Muslim countries, we have seen that very many times already.

Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4323 times:

zkojq

That assumes that that Libya did it.

My money has always been on a different theory.

Shortly before PanAm103, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iran Air A300.

I also note that when Gadaffi fell, there were expectations that the new leadership would "prove" that Gadaffi did it.

However, the issue just went quiet.


User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):

Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16's?  


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12885 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4224 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting T prop (Reply 13):
So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16's?

Well, everything else is his fault, isn't it?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14139 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4178 times:

So far I have seen in the haqnds of Libyan militionaries:

AK-47 and AK-74 rifles, FN FAL rifles, G3 rifles and G36 rifles. The AK-74 and the G36 are current issue in their respective home countries (e.g. the G36 is the current standard rifle of the German Bundeswehr. Ghaddafi´s son, while "studying" in Bavaria, bought bunches of them from Heckler & Koch to equip his personal militia with them. An attempted prosecution by German prosecutors for illegal arms exports was stopped by the German government of this time (pre-revolution) due to national interests). The AK-74 is the current russian army issue. So a few M16s won´t make a difference.

Btw., in neighbouring Tunisia (where the Arab spring started) people are getting increasingly fed up with the Islamist (Muslim brothers style) government, which won the first elections after thevrevolution, and are calling for a secular government and state.

For comparison to Christians: The Muslim Brothers are the Sunni equivalent of ultraconservative Catholics, while the Wahabis, Salafists and AQ are the equivalent of the rabid bible thumping evangelists, with the bible in one hand and a rifle in the other.

Due to having been banned in the Arab countries since decades, the Muslim Brothers developed a conspirative hierarchical system and were well organised. Additionally funding from Saudi Arabia and Qatar allowed them to be free with handouts, this way they captured the votes of the uneducated poor. The secular part of the rebels were mostly small ad hoc groups, prone to infighting and arguments about how to run the country and mostly organised by idealistic political amateurs.

The Wahabi and Salafist groups were always militant and had a strict military hierarchy. Unlike the political amateurs of the secular groups they are willing to use force and to sacrifice themselves and others to reach their goals. For them death doesn´t matter because they will be rewarded in heaven anyway.

Jan


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 4144 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Just seems like no end to the bad new for this administration.
Here's todays good news:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...s-equipment-stolen-in-libya-raids/

Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

Really, at the end of the day you blame Obama? This article was obviously written by an idiot.

They don't question .
1. Why would US troops leave VITAL equipment at a Foreign compound without US oversight? Was the equipment even the US's anymore?
2. If at the end of the day we pulled out because the Libyan Military was not cooperating with the investigations?

There is no hard hitting journalistic credibility to any of this articles data, and it just proves further the point that Fake news is not much of the latter, but a lot of the former.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
There is no hard hitting journalistic credibility to any of this articles data, and it just proves further the point that Fake news is not much of the latter, but a lot of the former.

I searched but I found NO other sources reporting this, even though they have State Department statements. In fact, I did not even know we had special forces in Libya until now. I'm not a fan of Fox News but I highly appreciate hearing ALL the news. Having 1200 Special Forces chased out of Libya is indeed interesting news.

When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News. They are usually more interested in suppressing information.

Are you hurt that they reported this?


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
I searched but I found NO other sources reporting this

1st clue.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
In fact, I did not even know we had special forces in Libya until now.

2nd clue

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
In fact, I did not even know we had special forces in Libya

3rd clue

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News. They are usually more interested in suppressing information.

Are you the writer of the article mentioned? to turn around a clearly politically motivated and purely ignorant article into an attack on me, seems a bit off post unless you arte the author of such a piece of crap article.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4083 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News.

Here is what I see: They run a story and bring on "experts" who then tell everyone that Obama and Democrats are to blame. That is what is sold as news. At the same time, they bill themselves as "fair and balanced" but how can they be "fair and balanced" when all they do is blame Obama and the Democrats? No, MSNBC is no better, but at least they don't claim they are "fair and balanced".

If you truly like hearing news from all sides, why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 905 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 5):
I don't think in the west there is a understanding that places like Afghanistan and Libya are basically living 200 years in the past if not more.

Afghanistan isn't much like Libya at all. There are only 6 million Libyans living in the 4th largest country in Africa (maybe 3rd now Sudan is divided in two). They have a lot of oil, free education, healthcare, fairly decent infrastructure, and now, they have freedom. Whilst it is far from perfect, most Libyans including 100% of the ones I know, have zero desire to turn Libya into Iran Part 2.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.

After 40 years, I'm going to give the Libyans a chance of something better. I'm guessing you've never lived in fear, or lived somewhere where anyone opposing the regime simply disappeared; think USSR, GDR etc at their very worst.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
My money has always been on a different theory.

  

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 9):
Is this opinion of Libya based on having traveled to or lived in the country?

I base mine on my time there between 82 and 89... and keeping in touch with friends. (I did suggest that the Mods update your flag 18 months ago; they're not exactly quick to respond....)



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

Not sure what the big deal is. So they came away with a few dozen specialized M-4's and night vision goggles. We are not the only country that produces these items and I'm sure militants have already purchased/stolen this equipment many times in the past.

Al Qaeda has acquired this equipment (including US issued military uniforms) many times in Afghanistan that was stripped off service members who were KIA.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a good thing by any stretch, but seems to be more of a political attack than anything else...



Cha brro
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.

You keep saying this and I fail to see your logic. If a dictatorship was so great, than why is there unrest in Libya, Egypt, Syria, et al in the first place? There is no chaos because the dictator kills anyone who utters a negative word about them.

Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?" Pretty sure you are in the minority here...



Cha brro
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 22):
You keep saying this and I fail to see your logic. If a dictatorship was so great, than why is there unrest in Libya, Egypt, Syria, et al in the first place? There is no chaos because the dictator kills anyone who utters a negative word about them.

Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?" Pretty sure you are in the minority here...

I never said living in a dictatorship is nice, however it still beats what's happening in Iraq, people dying all the time because of bomb attacks committed by different religious extremist groups. As bad as Saddam was he at least kept those groups in order and by doing that probably saved quite a lot of civilian lives. (and yes, probably by gassing Kurdish people he killed even more but that's irrelevant as most of these dictators haven't been even half as bad as him)

I fear what's happening in Iraq might be the future in Syria too if Assad loses, while Libya and Egypt don't look as bad there's still fear that actual extremists might eventually gain too much power.

Lack of education and religious extremism, those are the reasons why it's extremely hard to create a proper lasting democracy in any of these countries. If you give people the right to vote whoever they wish eventually a lot of the uneducated are going to vote based on who their religious leaders tell them to, not who would actually do something good for their country. Just look at what happened in Egypt before military intervened, they were falling under new dictatorship, this time very religious one which makes it way worse than the one before.

To make democracy work majority of voters should be educated enough to actually form their own fact based opinion about things instead of just listening what some Islamists tell them.


If I have to choose living in a state with failed democracy, constantly having to fear for my life VS living in a secular dictatorship with safety as long as I don't speak against the government sure I would choose the latter one. It's not like you could openly criticize things related to religion in a fake democracy ruled by islamists and expect not to get killed anyway.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 1):
Is there anyone with a brain left at Fox News or do they just pander to people who would actually re-port their drivel as if it contained any kind of factual insight? I guess I'll have to go with "no" and "yes" on this final double Geopardee question

Typical far left reaction. You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech". Anybody that dissagrees with your train of thought must be brain dead----right?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
We still don't know crap about what happened in Benghazi last year.

Exactly. Swept under the rug because Hillary says says it doesn't matter any more.
A stinking coverup and they all have AMERICAN blood on their hands which is why they don't want the tawdry truth to get out.

And this year another huge bombing took place....where's your news coverage of THAT, CNN? ?????????


Oh yeah, I say thank the Heavens for news agencies who report the stories the "mainstream press" neglects to inform us of. What they DON'T tell us is worse than misinformation sometimes.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 10):
Especially when you use fox news as a source.

Another one who doesn't agree with the idea of "freedom of speech".

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.

That is pretty much how I see it as well.

Quoting T prop (Reply 13):
So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16

Obama is the PRESIDENT. He DAMNED WELL BETTER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON! He is proving that both he and his cabinet are reaching new heights of incompetency.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
I'm not a fan of Fox News but I highly appreciate hearing ALL the news. Having 1200 Special Forces chased out of Libya is indeed interesting news.

YES! That's my point over the news source argument. We might not like what some agencies have to say, yet we had better listen to it all to make a reasonable decision about where we stand.
Thank Heavens for "Freedom of Speech"!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News. They are usually more interested in suppressing information.
Are you hurt that they reported this?

Exactly. They want to supress news contrary to their beliefs. They don't want anyone to hear the other side. Ever!
So they try to illegitimize those with other opinions.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?

Oh yeah. Now, those agencies are known for being "fair and balanced".  
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 22):
Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?

No. Who would want that? It's just that I get his point. because-------

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
As bad as Saddam was he at least kept those groups in order and by doing that probably saved quite a lot of

Why do so many Islamic countries have swords on their national flags? Because they KNOW THEIR ELEMENT. If they don't rule by the sword they know the people will run amok.
They also have very low rates of theft and murder.
Yeah, the dictators are still bad guys. The alternative appears to be anarchy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
a lot of the uneducated are going to vote based on who their religious leaders tell them to, not who would actually do something good for their country.

(Wow, sounds like the Evangelicals here in the US!) I would agree with you on that.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
If I have to choose living in a state with failed democracy, constantly having to fear for my life VS living in a secular dictatorship with safety as long as I don't speak against the government sure I would choose the latter one. It's not like you could openly criticize things related to religion in a fake democracy ruled by islamists and expect not to get killed anyway.

I think that is as good an opinion as any.   



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21865 posts, RR: 55
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

Seems like the military just took bad care of their weapons. Not sure how you can pin that on the Administration. That stuff is several levels down the food chain.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Typical far left reaction. You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech".

Are you quite sure you know what "freedom of speech" means? Hint: it's not that everyone's viewpoint has to have the same degree of validity.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
Are you quite sure you know what "freedom of speech" means? Hint: it's not that everyone's viewpoint has to have the same degree of validity.

Especially if you feel the need to illegitimize the opinions of those who dissagree with yours.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
If you truly like hearing news from all sides, why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?

Since the demise of the newspaper, I read whatever pops up on Google News. Occasionally that is Fox News. Is that OK? If not for this thread, I would not have been to their site in months.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 18):
Are you the writer of the article mentioned? to turn around a clearly politically motivated and purely ignorant article into an attack on me, seems a bit off post unless you arte the author of such a piece of crap article.

I find that those who instantly attack Fox, the messenger, instead of the information, are knee-jerks. Period.

Getting back to the subject, the blunder that is Libya, our headlines today include Libya Faces Looming Crisis As Oil Output Slows To Trickle source; NPR.org


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Exactly. They want to supress news contrary to their beliefs. They don't want anyone to hear the other side. Ever!
So they try to illegitimize those with other opinions.

As opposed to the Fake news network?

I still haven't seen a reputable source reporting this in any other mainstream or leftstream network. Whatever your preference.

This article has no facts to back it up, and absolutely no hard hitting journalistic integrity backing it up .
This article is nothing but Political BS made up for Entertainment value.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
I find that those who instantly attack Fox, the messenger, instead of the information, are knee-jerks. Period

I attacked all of it, the information included, am I a knee jerk for pointing out that the Fake news network lacks integrity from omitting such things as VERIFIABLE FACTS from their reporting?
If I am a knee jerk for such things, too bad. I value facts over stupidity any day of the week.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 20):
After 40 years, I'm going to give the Libyans a chance of something better. I'm guessing you've never lived in fear, or lived somewhere where anyone opposing the regime simply disappeared; think USSR, GDR etc at their very worst.
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 22):
You keep saying this and I fail to see your logic. If a dictatorship was so great, than why is there unrest in Libya, Egypt, Syria, et al in the first place? There is no chaos because the dictator kills anyone who utters a negative word about them.

Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?" Pretty sure you are in the minority here...

Because now living under the rule of group nutjobs who won't only disappear you but actually behead, stone you or hang you for being of the wrong branch of Islam is a total improvement  

Living in lala land must be awesome.


User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
I never said living in a dictatorship is nice, however it still beats what's happening in Iraq, people dying all the time because of bomb attacks committed by different religious extremist groups. As bad as Saddam was he at least kept those groups in order and by doing that probably saved quite a lot of civilian lives.

You are making massive assumptions with absolutely no evidence to back them. If you were in Saddam, Assad, or Gaddafi's inner circle, life was grand. Otherwise, you better toe the line, never speak up, or you are dead. Sounds real safe to me...

I guess we should've left Saddam alone and we never should've waged war against Hitler. There certainly wasn't any chaos during their reign. :sarcasm:

I completely respect the participants of the Arab spring who truly want Democracy and with that comes violence and chaos as you describe, but these are necessary evils for change. Unfortunately, history, religion, and as you pointed out, lack of education is fully stacked against them and their efforts. I think their attempts will be futile without outside intervention (and I'm not talking about military means).

FYI, bombings and assassinations have been going on for decades in the Middle East, even in countries that are/were ruled by dictators. This is nothing new or exclusive to the Arab Spring...



Cha brro
User currently offlineGatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3992 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
Because now living under the rule of group nutjobs who won't only disappear you but actually behead, stone you or hang you for being of the wrong branch of Islam is a total improvement  

Living in lala land must be awesome.

What? Stonings, beheadings and hangings have been a means of punishment in the Middle East for thousands of years, particularly under the current and most recent dictators spoken about in this thread. Not sure what you are getting at



Cha brro
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Typical far left reaction. You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech". Anybody that dissagrees with your train of thought must be brain dead----right?

I'm not making my comments based on my political beliefs, I'm making my comments because I deplore stupidity. The article posted by the OP was written by a moron and quoted a source that has zero knowledge of terrorist weaponry or access to it. Furthermore, if the article was factual in any way I would question the intelligence of the Special Forces unit that lost its weapons cache. In fact, I would almost argue that they should be court martialed for negligence. Can you imagine a Seal team or Delta Force unit that would leave its weapons behind in one location to go sleep at night at another location and then have those weapons stolen...TWICE??!!

Those guys must be from Platoon Dumb Dumb.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):
It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.

Al Qaeda doesn't run any country, not even Somalia. That's the precise reason why there are bombings and other terrorist attacks, because they don't control anything.

As for Libya precisely, many countries (including mine) gave weapons (often air dropped) to those people you call cowards and they did the job on the ground. Most are not islamists.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):
If you were in Saddam, Assad, or Gaddafi's inner circle, life was grand. Otherwise, you better toe the line, never speak up, or you are dead.

And if such circles want to rape or kill you for fun, tough luck !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1723 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 32):
What? Stonings, beheadings and hangings have been a means of punishment in the Middle East for thousands of years, particularly under the current and most recent dictators spoken about in this thread.

Only if you went against the current rulers. Your islamist buddies will do that just for being born anything but sunni.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
And if such circles want to rape or kill you for fun, tough luck !

As if the French have ever cared about that judging by the conditions of some of their former colonies.

A few of you are in such a hurry to buy into the "humanitarian" and "lets save them poor souls" bullshit that you completely miss the big picture and the practical implications of supporting either side.

Made worse by that silly notion that the western conception of democracy and human rights can work in such a society.


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 35):
A few of you are in such a hurry to buy into the "humanitarian" and "lets save them poor souls" bullshit that you completely miss the big picture and the practical implications of supporting either side.

Made worse by that silly notion that the western conception of democracy and human rights can work in such a society.

There is no way that Democracy will come to this Middle East anytime soon, but do I think it may in occur in some ME countries 10, 20 years from now? I sure do...

There is no such thing as a "world away" anymore. Everything is hyper connected and Arabs living in these oppressed countries, whether illiterate, uneducated, or both, can watch a video of how people live in the US, Europe, et al and realize how God awful they have it. I just think it's ludicrous that some members on this board are advocating status quo and that the participants of the Arab Spring should welcome back a dictatorship or military rule so there won't be chaos. :sarcasm:

If a group of people, who have actually been oppressed by a dictatorship for their entire lives, are revolting for something better, who are you to tell them how to behave when you live in a free society???



Cha brro
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Why do so many Islamic countries have swords on their national flags?

The flags of majority Muslim countries are far more likely to display a star or crescent - the five pointed star representing the five pillars of Islam. Off the top of my head I can only think of Saudi Arabia and Oman featuring a sword. There are a number of US state flags that feature weapons of some kind. What does that tell us about those states?

A general comment. Many people believe that organisations that claim to base their policies on Islam gain support because the population of a country is uneducated or illiterate. In Libya this is not the case. I recognise that education and literacy are not identical but according to the CIA World Fact Book, overall literacy in Libya is 89.2%, male literacy is 95.6% and female literacy is 82.7% with the difference being attributable to older Libyans. Among younger Libyans the figures are much closer and similar to those in Europe. These figures are much higher than in neighbouring Egypt. So any support for parties that draw on Islam is generally not a result of ignorance or a lack of education but because these parties have attempted to address very real issues like corruption, jobs, cost of living.

The term "Islamist" is a word invented by ideologues that masks more than it explains. It assumes that there is a fixed notion of what a Muslim society looks like or should be and it assumes a particular type of state with repressive laws. Yet gather a group of Muslims together and ask them what they think about a particular issue and you will get various responses, just as you would if you asked a group of Christians or Jews. In Libya there are many who disagree with the perspectives of this or that party or group, but by and large they still consider themselves to be Muslim. Are people generally aware that some 70 parties stood during the elections?

[Edited 2013-09-12 20:25:15]

User currently offlineT prop From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1029 posts, RR: 1
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):

Obama is the PRESIDENT. He DAMNED WELL BETTER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON! He is proving that both he and his cabinet are reaching new heights of incompetency.




...


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1357 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

What happened to 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
For comparison to Christians: The Muslim Brothers are the Sunni equivalent of ultraconservative Catholics, while the Wahabis, Salafists and AQ are the equivalent of the rabid bible thumping evangelists, with the bible in one hand and a rifle in the other.

That's a pretty good description.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
That assumes that that Libya did it.
My money has always been on a different theory.

Shortly before PanAm103, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iran Air A300.

I'd rather not go down this route as it is a whole different kettle of fish and is for a different thread. However, whether Gadaffi is responsible for the bombing of a DC10 and a 747 or 'just' the DC10, I'm equally pleased to be rid of him.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
I also note that when Gadaffi fell, there were expectations that the new leadership would "prove" that Gadaffi did it.
However, the issue just went quiet.

It probably didn't help that the building housing Libya's External Security Agency was hit by a NATO bomb. Some paperwork (which could have exonerated or implicated the Libyans) was destroyed, some was viewed by Human Rights Watch and some was supposedly taken by western intelligence agencies. Also, the Qataris got Moussa Koussa (smart move actually as I'm sure he is full of valuable intelligence) who is now working for them and seems to have his lips sealed. It would be interesting if more evidence came to light, but for the moment I think the Libyans have bigger fish to fry.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 20):
After 40 years, I'm going to give the Libyans a chance of something better.

Agreed. But for some it is clearly much easier to draw a metaphoric box around the MENA region and say 'democracy not possible' or whatever. It will take time but, particularly as Libyans are generally more westernised than many other countries affected by the Arab Spring, I'm sure it can be done (even if it may take five or ten years to do so).

No perfect democracy pops up overnight - particularly in an unstable region. And of course it takes time to clean up after a civil war which doesn't help.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Another one who doesn't agree with the idea of "freedom of speech".

You don't get it do you. You have every right to read (and share) whatever news sources you like, however if you post such rubbish pieces of journalism, the rest of us will give you about as much respect as if it was from The Onion. If no other sources are reporting on the story then that is probably a good sign of its [lack of] quality. It has been discussed here a multitude of times that to get an accurate perspective, one should use several news sources.



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3246 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 39):
You don't get it do you. You have every right to read (and share) whatever news sources you like, however if you post such rubbish pieces of journalism, the rest of us will give you about as much respect as if it was from The Onion. If no other sources are reporting on the story then that is probably a good sign of its [lack of] quality. It has been discussed here a multitude of times that to get an accurate perspective, one should use several news sources.

Like it or not, Fox News has produced exclusive stories in the past that the others apparently did not want to touch. I do not watch them and don't even like their style but iirc, they were at the forefront of the recent IRS scandal. That they have a different political philosophy than yours does not make their news/investigative reporting less newsworthy. That they are looking in corners others don't want to see also should not discredit them. Don't forget, Watergate was an "exclusive" as well.

Back to Libya. They are not letting go of this story, maybe people should pay attention and look beyond the Fox 'style'.. In today's headlines...

Theft of US weapons in Libya involved hundreds of guns, sources say.

According to State Department and military sources, dozens of highly armored vehicles called GMV's, provided by the United States, are now missing. The vehicles feature GPS navigation as well as various sets of weapon mounts and can be outfitted with smoke-grenade launchers. U.S. Special Forces undergo significant training to operate these vehicles. Fox News is told the vehicles provided to the Libyans are now gone.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...nvolved-hundreds-guns-sources-say/


User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Holy shit, I hadn't realized the true extent of the debacle. If this is true that terrorists now have access to 4WD vehicles with internal combustion engines that would be a first for Islam. And on top of that to know that they included weapon mounts...weapon mounts!? It's the stuff of science fiction! And...then...the coup de grace...pistols. This is truly devastating and I don't see how anyone could argue the danger that the Sixth Fleet is now in. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine a line of 40-50 Humvees lining the coast of Libya and launching a coordinated smoke screen against the USS Gerald Ford. With their new GPS, which is unprecedented technology transfer for Africa, they could literally find the beach and make sure their vehicles were all pointed towards the water...AT THE SAME TIME!

I hope the Gerald Ford can navigate through smoke. One thing is for sure, I'm going to write Briez and give him the coordinates to Tripoli for his Navy's next nuclear missile test. These Grand Theft Auto gangs must be stopped before they take over America! Phuck Yeah!


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

So, I don't get it:

United States gives weapons and vehicles to the Libyan rebels. Those items are in complete control of Libyans. Now, they are not.

Let me put this in perspective:

I give you my sweater that I paid for. You are getting it to keep forever and ever. You turn around and give/sell (your choice, because it is no longer mine) that sweater. I should not be offended but I should be shamed?

I wish I could find the exchange by one Democrat who found out Stevens went to Benghazi on his own with little security detail on his own and that stand down orders never came from anywhere and, according to military experts, it would have taken at least eight hours to get to Benghazi, not the 20 seconds some people claim.

This whole Libya story is just another right-wing dog whistle.

To quote a sign from the 1990s: It's the economy, stupid!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
I find that those who instantly attack Fox, the messenger, instead of the information, are knee-jerks. Period.

Yup. That's pretty much the case. They think if Anderson Cooper or Rachel Maddow say it then it must be "from the lips of G-D".  
Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
I value facts

Well, whatever "facts" you happen to agree with.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):
I completely respect the participants of the Arab spring who truly want Democracy and with that comes violence and chaos as you describe, but these are necessary evils for change.

Yes, freedom in the US did not come without violence for sure!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 40):
Like it or not, Fox News has produced exclusive stories in the past that the others apparently did not want to touch. I do not watch them and don't even like their style but iirc, they were at the forefront of the recent IRS scandal. That they have a different political philosophy than yours does not make their news/investigative reporting less newsworthy. That they are looking in corners others don't want to see also should not discredit them. Don't forget, Watergate was an "exclusive" as well.

  
Exactly right! If we didn't have Fox to inform us of some of this stuff we would never know it. The left-wing "mainstream media" likes to spoon-feed the sheeple with all kinds of nonsense. And what they don't say is as bad as what they do say sometimes. Why don't they just give us all the news there is and let us decide what we think about it!?



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):
Holy shit, I hadn't realized the true extent of the debacle.

While your hyperbole is commendable, your reasoning and desire to hide the news that Libya is in dissarray is not.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
United States gives weapons and vehicles to the Libyan rebels. Those items are in complete control of Libyans. Now, they are not.

The US did not give these weapons away, they were stolen. And the administration has known and worried about our aid going to the wrong places for quite some time. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/wo...ist-hands.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
I wish I could find the exchange by one Democrat who found out Stevens went to Benghazi on his own with little security detail on his own and that stand down orders never came from anywhere and, according to military experts, it would have taken at least eight hours to get to Benghazi, not the 20 seconds some people claim.

If nobody reports it, is it more credible than if only Fox News reports it?


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8768 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3080 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):
Holy shit, I hadn't realized the true extent of the debacle. If this is true that terrorists now have access to 4WD vehicles with internal combustion engines that would be a first for Islam. And on top of that to know that they included weapon mounts...weapon mounts!? It's the stuff of science fiction! And...then...the coup de grace...pistols. This is truly devastating and I don't see how anyone could argue the danger that the Sixth Fleet is now in.

This is very funny.

Another thing that drives these people nuts. Obama is black!

Now for other issues, he is there for criticism, but Bengazi is a code word. I am convinced it is about Africa, and how Obama is just another terrorist, like Saddam. Plus he is black.

Criticizing a president is fully legal and ok, but Bengazi is becoming an "event" for the same neocon characters that started the race wars of the early 2000s (Iraq). Bengazi is dog-whistling to bring out today's KKK-wannabe losers. Just look, they are all present.


User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
We still don't know crap about what happened in Benghazi last year.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
Criticizing a president is fully legal and ok, but Bengazi is becoming an "event" for the same neocon characters that started the race wars of the early 2000s (Iraq). Bengazi is dog-whistling to bring out today's KKK-wannabe losers. Just look, they are all present.
13 Benghazis Happened Under President Bush and Fox News Said Nothing

http://www.policymic.com/articles/40...ent-bush-and-fox-news-said-nothing

Just a quick review of history shows you how right you are...'Benghazi' is indeed a dog whistle term for a certain type of mentality. Just look at the similarities of the cast who continues to toss it out with no real concern for the event itself.

BN747

[Edited 2013-09-25 15:20:46]


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8960 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 28):
As opposed to the Fake news network?

I still haven't seen a reputable source reporting this in any other mainstream or leftstream network. Whatever your preference.

This article has no facts to back it up, and absolutely no hard hitting journalistic integrity backing it up .
This article is nothing but Political BS made up for Entertainment value.

A 2 minute search results in the same story (written separately) in Fox, Washington Post, Huff Post, The Daily Mail and the Telegraph in the UK, and the English language Libya Herald.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...says-whistle-blowers-attorney.html
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...-libya-militia-leader-libya-shield
http://www.libyaherald.com/2013/09/1...training-withdrawal/#axzz2fwhh21yy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-Libyan-weapons-from-al-Qaeda.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/libya-weapons_n_1031468.html

Would you care to apologize now, or simply acknowledge that the US mainstream networks indeed seem to have an agenda to not avoid stuff that is embarrassing to the Obama administration?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
13 Benghazis Happened Under President Bush and Fox News Said Nothing

Please come back with some indication that these attacks happened after specific warnings were received, where the ambassador asked for security assistance and was turned down by Washington, and then a cover-up in Washington.

THAT's the scandal here. Embassies and consulates will sometimes get attacked, unfortunately. They are a highly visible target. There were recent attacks (during Obama's administration) in Pakistan and Afghanistan on US consulates, but Fox did not make a big scandal - because there was no evidence of incompetence and ignored warnings. In Benghazi there is. Hence the scandal.

[Edited 2013-09-25 22:02:17 by wilco737]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3023 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
13 Benghazis Happened Under President Bush and Fox News Said Nothing

Please come back with some indication that these attacks happened after specific warnings were received, where the ambassador asked for security assistance and was turned down by Washington, and then a cover-up in Washington.

Nice try to mask what truly upsets you.

Embassies dating back to 'forever'... have always made requests for security assistance, enhancements, added security , measures - and told to wait. it's coming, delayed and denied. Any American familiar with foreign service knows this.

You have no standing..and no mask.

We all know what you 'Benghazites' are all about...it was elaborately expressed above.

But please, by all means keep putting up that front like you're deeply concerned... sadly for you, too many of us know better.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3004 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
I give you my sweater that I paid for. You are getting it to keep forever and ever. You turn around and give/sell (your choice, because it is no longer mine) that sweater. I should not be offended but I should be shamed?

Would you be ashamed if you sold me a gun and I went and sold it to a felon? Why would you care, you sold it to me legitimately. We aren't talking about sweaters, we are talking about deadly weapons. Weapons that can be used against us or innocent people. We should be pretty careful safeguarding our weapons and not letting the ones we give away get into the wrong hands

I'm not saying "it's Obama's fault" or that the GOP is 100% accurate or even 20%, but you seem to, again, see it black and white and instantly take the side of the left/against the right. You can independently investigate yourself and be critical of the side you're on without endorsing all the claims of the other side



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3377 posts, RR: 8
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Quoting T prop (Reply 13):
So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16

Obama is the PRESIDENT. He DAMNED WELL BETTER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON! He is proving that both he and his cabinet are reaching new heights of incompetency.

I thought the whole purpose of having different departments was to have more people responsible for its activities.

By your logic, if the local McDonald's is robbed, it's the CEOs fault for not making it more secured. I'll be in on the lookout for the next fast-food robbery. I'll post it here and see if you agree with me (though by every thread I've seen, somehow this will be Obama's fault, like everything always is).



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Both of you have this whole thing out of control.

of course Benghazi's happened under Bush. AND CLINTON. AND REAGAN. Hell, Lockerbie happened.

But each time we immediately got to the bottom of this. And plus, those incidents occurred under Gaddafi.

The issue here is we had 4 people killed, including the Ambassador to the NEWLY reformed Libyan state. Obama and the Departments of State and Defense were too slow to act. Someone told the Armed forces to stand down.

Who in god's name would do such a thing? There's your scandal.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
But each time we immediately got to the bottom of this

No we didn't!

The 400+ Marines killed in the Embassy Barracks Bombing (Reagan era) are still partying it up in East Beirut somewhere.

I doubt if any of the Bush Benghazis haven't scored as even.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
he issue here is we had 4 people killed, including the Ambassador to the NEWLY reformed Libyan state. Obama and the Departments of State and Defense were too slow to act

Too slow, what handbook or precedent setting guideline are you using to measure reasonable response times?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):
Someone told the Armed forces to stand down.

Someone needs a few years in the military to see how these things work.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 52):

Who in god's name would do such a thing? There's your scandal.

Pat Tillman....there's your scandal.

Benghazi = racist dog whistle by the Right.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8960 posts, RR: 24
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Benghazi = racist dog whistle by the Right.

And here comes the hand grenade in the room, meant to shut everyone up by calling them racist if they say anything negative about Obama.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 54):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Benghazi = racist dog whistle by the Right.

And here comes the hand grenade in the room, meant to shut everyone up by calling them racist if they say anything negative about Obama.

Not meant to do anything...by all means 'keep speaking your mind', just don't expect the people who know better to 'pretend they can't see what you're really selling.

Only Racist don't like being called 'racist'... those who are not, strangely enough.. never employ thinly veiled racist tactics like Benghazi.

It is (exactly) what it is.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
you seem to, again, see it black and white and instantly take the side of the left/against the right.

Because, from the first second this tragedy occurred, the right was screaming how Obama let them die. Don't tell me I am making this partisan. It started long before I said anything.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Benghazi = racist dog whistle by the Right.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 55):
Only Racist don't like being called 'racist'... those who are not, strangely enough.. never employ thinly veiled racist tactics like Benghazi.

How is Benghazi racist? Granted, there are those in the right-wing who hate Obama just for the color of his skin. Most hate him because he is a Democrat and they just want to see a far-right winger in power. Benghazi has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with power. The far right is not in the White House anymore and they just want that power back. Not to do anything in particular, mind you. They are just more comfortable seeing a far-right winger in power. Those far-right wingers who hate Obama based on skin color would still even hold their nose and vote for Herman Cain or "Ted" Cruz or "Bobby" Jindal because they are far right.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 55):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 53):
Benghazi = racist dog whistle by the Right.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 55):
Only Racist don't like being called 'racist'... those who are not, strangely enough.. never employ thinly veiled racist tactics like Benghazi.

How is Benghazi racist?

It really helps to read ALL posts in a thread..

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
but Bengazi is a code word.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
but Bengazi is becoming an "event" for the same neocon characters that started the race wars of the early 2000s (Iraq). Bengazi is dog-whistling to bring out today's KKK-wannabe losers. Just look, they are all present.

It's not a complicated tactic or ploy by any means.

I guess they haven't gotten to point of teaching college students about the modern day hidden meanings...heaven forbid if one is left to 'figure it out on their own'...

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2860 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 56):
It really helps to read ALL posts in a thread..

ummmm.... not always.

I am a racist. I know I am. I accept that. I do not like Koreans, my sisters-in-law, not withstanding. However, as I said in my previous post, this is not completely and totally about Obama's skin color. It makes my skin crawl when the ultra right wing screams about Obama being a Muslim at the same time they scream about their flavor of Christianity being under attack and we all need to be free to worship as we please.

However, Benghazi is not about race, skin color, or heritage. It is about misinformation that keeps being repeated among the right.

EDIT:

This may be a sign of the apocalypse: Dreadnought and I are on the same side of an issue. Mark your calendars. This may never happen again!

[Edited 2013-09-26 00:19:10]

[Edited 2013-09-26 00:19:36]


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2804 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 59):
I guess you need them also to TELL YOU or give your some sort of hint when 'it's a skin color' thing.

wow... I don't think anyone on this board would ever have guessed that I was to the right of anyone!

With your proclaimed dislike of Koreans, you've just scored major points with many righties on that score alone.
They won't come forward publicly, but you are certainly on their radar. And 'YES'..you are indeed on the right of millions with mindset. Now the Korean A.net members see where you stand as well as myself and sad to say that puts your in with a pretty dubious cast of characters.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
There was an air of racism when it came to Trayvon and Egypt. But, like I said before, Benghazi is all about power. Just like Syria and Iran. It is about power. The far right talking heads are livid that Obama did not bomb. The far right talking heads love war for wars' sake. Because he chose the path of peace, they hate him. They started off in 2008 hating him because they didn't win.

If being all over the map ever needed a description....you just gave it one.

an 'air of racism'? I guess Matthew Shepherd was tainted with a tad of homophobia as well. You have an opinion about racism and it is as jacked up as your explanation of Obama and the Far Right.

In the 6 years of the Obama Administration, the Far Right has gone after him like the Rabid Racist went after Jackie Robinson over 60years ago, just as they went after Jack Johnson 100 years ago - from minute One, on Day ONE. Simply for being the first Black President. They even left a paper trail, a digital trail and recorded (video) trail of words and actions to back it all up. And Benghazi is just another ticket after 100s to bring the hate and mask it as a conflict of policy - when history says 'no such conflict truly exist.'

Power? What Power? What power anywhere is to be found regarding Benghazi - zilch! The closest anyone can get is a volley toss of political power of the lowest magnitude of measure. That's the first I've heard of anyone trying make that stretch...and it is indeed as ridiculous as it sounds.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
Again: There is that small group of right-wingers who look at Obama and hate him simply for his skin color

A small group... I think the Bible Belt of states consist more like 10s of millions, But you're on a streak with these wayward descriptions..so I won't stand in your way..

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
But, Benghazi is not about that for the majority of right-wingers. Benghazi is about taking power back from what they believe is a socialist/communist/Marxist/maoist movement.

Like I said any issue with the name Obama attached to it qualifies as a hate entry ticket with that crowd...and his skin color was the issue long before ' socialist/communist/Marxist/maoist' was made the official scapegoat label. If he were half Korean..it'd be that much clearer to you.

BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 58):
an 'air of racism'? I guess Matthew Shepherd was tainted with a tad of homophobia as well. You have an opinion about racism and it is as jacked up as your explanation of Obama and the Far Right.

I said "air of racism" because many the far right loud mouths are not stupid enough to come right out and say what they want to say. They used code words when it came to Tryavon and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I get that. But, not all on the right feel that way.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 58):
Now the Korean A.net members see where you stand as well as myself and sad to say that puts your in with a pretty dubious cast of characters.

Here's why I don't like Koreans, since you want to hammer away at that: They are very rude. That is what I have noticed when they interact with me. They look down their nose at others. Other races are cautious about strangers from other cultures, but are willing to interact. Koreans, I have noticed, do not.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 58):
They even left a paper trail, a digital trail and recorded (video) trail of words and actions to back it all up. And Benghazi is just another ticket after 100s to bring the hate and mask it as a conflict of policy - when history says 'no such conflict truly exist.'

Again: there are right-wing loud mouths who are willing to say, publicly or privately, they hate Obama for his skin color. I get that. They start all their talking points off from "since he is black, I hate him, so I have to find a way to appeal my opinion to the masses." They know they can not ever say "hate him because he is black." So, they have to come up with creative (read: stupid) ways of getting their base to hate Obama. Like Benghazi, like the Beer Summit, like commenting on race relation, like his Muslim father.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 58):
If he were half Korean..it'd be that much clearer to you.

Well, no. Obama seems like a gracious host. As I said before, I have not seen that out of the Korean people.

Besides, you can not lump my dislike of Koreans in with the far right loud mouths. They hate based on skin color or religion and will go out of their way to not deal with people different than them. I will deal with Koreans, but I understand I see them as rude. I don't care about their skin color or religion like those you accuse me of being.

Another example is Ann Coulter. She is a far right wing loud mouth. She is not a racist. She simply hates Obama because he is a Democrat and she is following Mitch McConnell's directive to do anything to get Obama out. How do I know this? Early in the presidential campaign, she was behind Herman Cain. A black man. Ann Coulter said of him "Our blacks are so much better than their blacks." She is about the only right wing loud mouth who does not come off as racist.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBN747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5620 posts, RR: 51
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):

Here's why I don't like Koreans, since you want to hammer away at that: They are very rude.

I don't care why you don't like them..at this point, I pegged you as a much smarter person.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
Besides, you can not lump my dislike of Koreans in with the far right loud mouths.

Sure I can, and am...at this point you can make up anything, write in any excuse..no one knows what to beieve after you proud proclamation.

If anything, it's more than likely 'you' that's the problem..not them. Someone can easily supplant your 'excuse' with any group or ethnicity ..and there you have ignorance ruling the day again.

Like I said earlier, I figured you to be much more enlightened and man am I discovering how how wrong I was on that point. The only that would change my mind about your racist perspective at this point would be to find out you're 11 or 12..but you left that demos years ago.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
They used code words when it came to Tryavon and Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I get that. But, not all on the right feel that way.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
hey know they can not ever say "hate him because he is black." So, they have to come up with creative (read: stupid) ways of getting their base to hate Obama. Like Benghazi, like the Beer Summit, like commenting on race relation, like his Muslim father.

What the hell do you think 'dog whistle racism' is??? It's exactly what you're saying there - TWICE! .. so you started this entire attack on my argument only to say the very same thing. It's beginning to look like nosing up to Dreadnoght was your only true aim. Mission Accomplished!

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
Another example is Ann Coulter. She is a far right wing loud mouth. She is not a racist. ..., she was behind Herman Cain. A black man.

And with that I couldn't be more convinced you haven't slightest clue how to spot a racist other than the Korean hating types like yourself.

Every 'black hating racist' has 'favorite black' they like, people like Coulter, Rush, Beck, O'Reilly to George Wallace all the way back to Jefferson Davis has a favorite Uncle Tom. 'Our blacks' who on earth do you think she's talking about? . I'd heed you to dare speak in depth face to face with anyone in public under the pretense you know anything about racism (with fair disclosure of your anti-Korean mentality)..because it'd be a lost cause. But on the other hand a public embarrassment (should you be the type to engage and vocalize your point) would be well deserved and well served since no classroom nor personal experience has taught you a thing about it.



BN747



"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2731 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech".

??

What I'm against is bad journalism practices - calling an unsupported opinion piece a news story. If anyone turned in that article in a journalism course - they would be given an F grade.

It is a fair personal opinion - it is not journalism or reporting news stories.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
I say thank the Heavens for news agencies who report the stories the "mainstream press" neglects

Fox News is 'mainstream press'. The right wing press is the most powerful, most frequently viewed, listened to in the United States.

The very idea that Fox is not part of the mainstream media is a poor joke.

Fox News mission is to make money. If abandoning the concepts of honest journalism makes more money - they will do it. Fox News is the successor to yellow journalism of Hearst and Pulitizer.

----------------------------------------------

Second topic

US military equipment, including some very sensitive and secret systems, has disappeared from bases and such in foreign countries throughout history. It is unfortunate - ranging from simple negligence to outright criminal theft.

And it has happened during every US foreign military deployment.

Nothing in the OP linked article describes anything which countless US military veterans have not seen happen on their bases before.

[Edited 2013-09-26 12:53:00]

User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2337 posts, RR: 5
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2702 times:

This thread should probably die soon, not sure how it veered off into such a tangent. My closing remarks on it, in all seriousness, will be to echo what Rfields just said, There may be a story here but the fact is that this is a piss poor attempt at journalism. This writer is rehashing a first poor attempt at igniting a news story a few weeks ago by simply adding to the number and types of weapons stolen, still none of which would represent any greater danger to Americans or to our interests than already exist.

Let's be clear: Al Qaeda and its affiliates have vehicles, they have guns, they surely have weapons mounts (I think I've seen at least 62,000 photographs documenting their mastery of this kind of advanced war materiel). I've never seen Al Zawahiri playing with a TomTom, but I'll wager Al Qaeda has GPS too. And if they have access to the internet they can order night vision goggles...or buy them at the Sunday bazaar in any major town in N. Africa or the Middle East.

It's hard to resist making fun of this story because the story itself has no point. I agree with Rfields, this effort would yield an F in any half-assed journo program. I thought it might've been The Onion but I did check Fox yesterday and the the article was the leading exclusive on their website. Now Dreadnought also cited four additional news stories meant to convey the relevance of this "exclusive" and yet there is virtually no linkage between what Fox carried and the much more serious reports from other organizations about even larger and more sophisticated weapons caches being stolen in the chaos of Qadafi's fall from power (primarily the theft of shoulder launched surface to air missiles).

In my opinion, any writer or editor with any amount of self-respect, would've dug a bit deeper into possible linkages number one, and then even tried to secure more source intel about how exactly they got stolen, or why our special forces abandoned the weapons in the first place, why were they there really?, and what happened that caused them to commit dereliction of duty, should they be prosecuted for their actions, did Obama orchestrate the weapons transfer? But instead this dimwit and his equally dim-witted editor authorized a follow up article that was completely devoid of any journalistic value, just like the first article. It's essential theme, twice in a row, was to claim that terrorists were able to steal advanced technology from the United States that is not readily available to their kind. Is there anyone on this forum that believes that Al Qaeda doesn't have GPS, or possibly night vision goggles, or 4X4 Pick Up Trucks?

Come on guys, this is a real shit piece and the fact that we've let this thread get so long tells me that the writer and his editor accomplished what they were really after, and that was to wind up the hounds into a full rage of anti-Left and anti-Right vitriol. Mission accomplished.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 35):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
And if such circles want to rape or kill you for fun, tough luck !

As if the French have ever cared about that judging by the conditions of some of their former colonies.

Are you talking about the conditions of such colonies when they were colonies, or now ?

We intervened in Mali, a former colony, in part to stop such actions. Next in line is Centrafrique.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7834 posts, RR: 5
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2612 times:

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):
I guess we should've left Saddam alone

Gulf War 1 was necessary, Gulf War 2 was a complete BS war and should never have happened, so yes you should have left him alone, he was doing no wrong and the country would have been in a much better state than it is today.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 64):
Gulf War 1 was necessary, Gulf War 2 was a complete BS war and should never have happened, so yes you should have left him alone, he was doing no wrong and the country would have been in a much better state than it is today.

Saddam, evil as he was, led a secular government. He allowed women to educate themselves. He allowed Christians to worship. Al-Qaida hated that about him and Iraq. As long as the people voted for him (or die) it was all good. Plus, he kept Iran in check. Bush was not a "big picture" guy. He just wanted to make daddy happy, IMO. He took care of what daddy didn't finish. Iran/Iraq was much better off with Saddam alive, as much as Saddam hated his people. Tell me again what Saddam and Iraq had to do with 9/11 like Bush and the far right said?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2576 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 60):
I don't care why you don't like them..at this point, I pegged you as a much smarter person.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 60):
I figured you to be much more enlightened and man am I discovering how how wrong I was on that point. The only that would change my mind about your racist perspective at this point would be to find out you're 11 or 12..but you left that demos years ago.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 60):
What the hell do you think 'dog whistle racism' is??? It's exactly what you're saying there

Wow, just who do you think think you are to speak so harshly and make such judgements towards another member of this blog? Did I miss something? Someone made you a god or something?

Everyone here pays the same amount of money to have a voice and opinion and we can all do it with personal attacks.

The topic is Libyan blunders by the inept Obama Administration.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4792 posts, RR: 3
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2559 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 66):
The topic is Libyan blunders by the inept Obama Administration.

And you have proved nothing in this thread close to it. It is just another example of dogmatic attacks.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 67):
ust another example of dogmatic attacks.


Ah, o.k. and you are entitled to you're opinion.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2551 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 65):
IMO. He took care of what daddy didn't finish

President George H. W. Bush's goal to liberate Kuwait in 1991 was completed successfully. He managed to put together a greater coalition of nations than the allies in WWII to combat a clear case of an illegal takeover of a neighboring country by Iraq.

Killing or replacing Saddam was NEVER a goal of the 1991 war. Neither was invading and taking over Iraq. The mission was not 'unfinished'.

In fact, not targeting Saddam personally was listed publicly as a requirement by several nations before they joined the coalition.

Now, I agree that the former poor governor of Texas was not a big picture guy. And he had personal motives after the Iraqi sponsored attempt to kill the former President, his father, during a visit to Kuwait.

However, I have never believed President George W. Bush committed the troops to war for personal motives. Those might have unconsciously helped him filter the intelligence data he received to be in favor of a war. But that persident, like his father, has always had a close personal connection to the people in uniform. It was not a decision he made lightly. If we want to open a new thread and talk about how his SecDef and VP manipulated the intelligence data he saw - I'll participate in that one.

That said - if anyone wants to make a big new story out of lost secret / sensitive advanced military equipment - what the Bush administration left in Iraq, lost to theft in Iraq, lost due to corrupt US servicemen and contractors selling to the enemy in Iraq - greatly exceeds all the US military equipment ever in Libya since Wheeler AFB closed.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 69):
contractors selling to the enemy

Right. Halliburton is a disgrace. The taxpayers poured so much money into that company it was like water pouring through a sieve. Ridiculous!

Quoting seb146 (Reply 57):
It is about misinformation that keeps being repeated among the right.

Oh, there's plenty of "misinformation" on both sides of the fence.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Obama and the Departments of State and Defense were too slow to act. Someone told the Armed forces to stand down.

Who in god's name would do such a thing? There's your scandal.

Exactly.   



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2521 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 65):

Not only did Saddam allow Christians to worship but his foreign minister was a Christian. So far so good. But I think it is a bit far fetched to suggest that the invasion of Iraq and eventual killing of Iran was simply a result of G minor seeking approval of G senior. Surely the GOP would not blindly support their man simply because he sought the approval of his father. Would not their support for the President and CIC require something more substantive?

Absolutely. Personal attacks are never justifiable, in any thread, no matter what the topic. The best way to deal with claims is to examine them, challenge them and where shown to be false refute them. Naming people as racist, anti semite, or whatever personal choice applies simply surrenders the argument. Attack the argument, not the person. Otherwise it simply sounds like the Pavlov's Dog Syndrome.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Someone told the Armed forces to stand down.

Your information is incorrect, or your statement is incomplete.

No one told ALL the US military forces to stand down. Just some of the units in Europe initially placed on alert were told to standdown when it became clear that those forces could not get into Libya for several hours, likely days - unless the commanders were willing to invade without local government permission.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 51):
Who in god's name would do such a thing?

It happens all the time, especially when politicians and the State Department fear the military will 'over react' to an incident.

30 years ago - the White House reviewed, modified and ensured the final rules of engagement for us in Beirut met their political goals.

The local 'White House Special Envoy' Robert McFarland personally modified the ROE to require that sentries on duty not carry magazines in their weapons. I, and about 30 others, heard McFarland say that.

When 241 Marines, sailors and soldiers were killed - it was the Col in charge of 24MAU who was hung out to dry. Not the 'White House Special Envoy', not the Sixth Fleet commander, not the Commandant of the Marine Corps (who was present in Beirut a few days before and personally reviewed those ROE changes).

Do I blame President Reagan personally for the deaths of 241 servicemen - most of which I knew (There were less than 800 of us in the USMC compound that day - over 30% died on Oct 23)

No

Such decisions never reach the level folks seem to believe happened with Bengazhi. The decisions are made by lower level staffers who 'wear their bosses stripes'.

Idiots like LtCol Oliver North.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 69):
Killing or replacing Saddam was NEVER a goal of the 1991 war. Neither was invading and taking over Iraq. The mission was not 'unfinished'.

Not according to Bush II. Or, at least those he surrounded himself with. It is documented that those in the administration were looking for any reason to go to war in Iraq. Those were the talking points during the campaign.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-01.htm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 69):
what the Bush administration left in Iraq, lost to theft in Iraq, lost due to corrupt US servicemen and contractors selling to the enemy in Iraq - greatly exceeds all the US military equipment ever in Libya since Wheeler AFB closed.

And where were the endless hearings and threats of impeachment over those losses?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 66):
The topic is Libyan blunders by the inept Obama Administration.

Which would be.......?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 54):
Only Racist don't like being called 'racist'... those who are not, strangely enough.. never employ thinly veiled racist tactics like Benghazi.
Quoting BN747 (Reply 58):
With your proclaimed dislike of Koreans, you've just scored major points with many righties on that score alone.

I'm thinking the biggest 'racist' in this thread is you.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 61):
What I'm against is bad journalism practices - calling an unsupported opinion piece a news story.

This is an interesting comment (which I tend to agree with) BUT I routinely see reporters' personal opinions in BBC reports, while the BBC is routinely held up as some paragon of journalism. As for whether it is supported, that is the editors job to determine when he allows it to print. Go back to Watergate and see how many sources were named when it broke. In fact, we didn't learn the source until he died decades later.

Libya as a whole was a blunder, never mind Benghazi. It has negatively affected countries throughout the region and would not have happened if not for European insistence and Obama wanting to be one of the guys. It is and will continue to have far reaching effects to our foreign policy for many years.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 72):

I am moved by your post as it is based on personal experience. I share the sadness at the loss of colleagues that you knew. Sadly, your post reminds us that it is ordinary people trying to do a job who are the victims of political expedience. While the politicians and professional self-satisfyers pontificate, it is ordinary working people who pay the price. That is true whether it is in Tripoli or in Washington.


User currently offlineChaosTheory From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2013, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
Additionally funding from Saudi Arabia and Qatar allowed them to be free with handouts, this way they captured the votes of the uneducated poor.

You're off base here. Saudi Arabia has never funded the "Ikhwanis" or the muslim brotherhood. In fact, if you had followed the events of the Arab Spring closely, barring the case of Syria and Libya, the Saudis have supported the pre-revolution governments.

In the case of Tunisia, Ben Ali was welcomed and granted exile in Saudi Arabia:

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/vari...st-photos-since-his-overthrow.html

In Egypt, the army, which was in de-facto power pre-revolution is still in control and is fully supported by Saudi Arabia. In fact, Egypt recently received a large aid package from Saudi amongst others following recent events:

'Egypt’s central bank has received a $2 billion deposit from Kuwait, the governor said on Thursday.

The deposit is part of $12 billion in aid that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates promised Egypt after the military deposed Islamist president Mohamed Mursi on July 3.

“Yes. The Kuwait $2 billion (has been) received,” Hisham Ramez told Reuters in a text message.

Ramez said one week ago that Egypt had returned a $2 billion deposit from Qatar, which strongly supported Mursi, after negotiations to turn it into three-year bonds had failed.


http://english.alarabiya.net/en/busi...2-billion-deposit-from-Kuwait.html

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
while the Wahabis, Salafists and AQ are the equivalent of the rabid bible thumping evangelists, with the bible in one hand and a rifle in the other.

Al Qaeda and those of a similar ilk are considered to be Khariji, ie the ones that go over-board or transgress the limits.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
The Wahabi and Salafist groups were always militant and had a strict military hierarchy. Unlike the political amateurs of the secular groups they are willing to use force and to sacrifice themselves and others to reach their goals. For them death doesn´t matter because they will be rewarded in heaven anyway.

By their very nature, Salafis can not be extremists. The actions of the Brotherhood and Islamists during recent events go against the teachings of the Salaf.

I suggest you read up on the some of the fatwas given by the highly regarded Salafi scholars such as Albani, Uthaymeen and Ibn Baz.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 74):
I routinely see reporters' personal opinions in BBC reports, while the BBC is routinely held up as some paragon of journalism.

A reporter's personal opinion is allowed, when it is listed as opinion, not as fact. A 'news' organization that doesn't differentiate between personal opinion, personal observation and fact is not being honest in my opinion. Of course, I was trained in journalistic standards in the 60s, and much of that seems to be 'old fashioned' today.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 74):
see how many sources were named when it broke. In fact, we didn't learn the source until he died decades later.

There is a process for using anoymous sources. The books written about how the Watergate story broke, how it was released are very good tutorials in how to ensure verifiable accuracy.

While 'Deep Throat' was not named for many years, Woodard and Bernstein had to 'prove' their information was correct. They had to find another source to corrobate the information they received from Deep Throat.

Much of the information they felt was important - Bradlee refused to publish. I was lucky to attend a conference where Bradlee talked about verifying anoymous source information in 1989. He cited several examples of information the Post had, but refused to publish for lack of verification. Items which other papers published with their own standards of verification.

But the Watergate story would never have come out in detail with just the media - Judge Sirica kept bring out more and more information as people sought to avoid stiff criminal penalties in his court - especially reading McCord's letter in open court.

Bradlee said the Post and most other newspapers and broadcast networks knew about the White House taping system from the start of the Nixon administration, but it was Fred Thompson who brought it to the public when he was chief minority counsel for the Senate Watergate committee who forced Alexander Butterfield to reveal the taping system on live TV.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 72):
Do I blame President Reagan personally for the deaths of 241 servicemen - most of which I knew (There were less than 800 of us in the USMC compound that day - over 30% died on Oct 23)

No

Such decisions never reach the level folks seem to believe happened with Bengazhi. The decisions are made by lower level staffers who 'wear their bosses stripes'.

Thank you for explaining this difference. I only wish those on the extreme right would understand this when it comes to Obama and Benghazi. They are trying to find a "gotcha" moment to take down Obama when none exists.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 72):
those forces could not get into Libya for several hours, likely days - unless the commanders were willing to invade without local government permission.

Again, thank you. Some on the far right seem to think that we can just march into where ever we darn well please for any reason. There are many factors. One of which is: we don't want to piss off the wrong group.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5940 posts, RR: 5
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
If you truly like hearing news from all sides, why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Now, those agencies are known for being "fair and balanced"

Actually yes. There is no such thing as totally non-biased reporting, but if you are going to read just one news source about the Middle East (excluding Israel) then make it one of those. In terms of sheer "facts" they are unsurpassed in terms of their depth and breadth of regional coverage.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
No, MSNBC is no better, but at least they don't claim they are "fair and balanced"

  

I'm from the liberal side of politics, but I have almost as little regard for MSNBC as I do for Fox. The difference is one is quite open about the fact they have an agenda, the other pretends that it doesn't.

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):

  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2410 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 79):
I have almost as little regard for MSNBC as I do for Fox. The difference is one is quite open about the fact they have an agenda, the other pretends that it doesn't.

That is what I try to point out but people don't get.

When I watch CNN, I watch it knowing they have an agenda. But, when I watch al-Jazeera or BBC or NHK, they are dry and boring. Because they are presenting facts. Not a bias but news. The way it used to be in the United States. Dry as it is, I would rather have facts with little or no agenda.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 79):
one news source about the Middle East (excluding Israel) then make it one of those

Yes, but I do prefer the Jerusalem Post.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 80):
Not a bias but news.

Wow. So you believe the BBC and Al-Jazeera are not biased? Seriously? I find them both anti-semitic as hell! Big surprise.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 80):
The way it used to be in the United States. Dry as it is, I would rather have facts with little or no agenda.

Yes. That's the way I want the news as well. I'm afraid we will never see that again. It is a different world now.
Agenda sells.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5940 posts, RR: 5
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 81):
I do prefer the Jerusalem Post

I go for Haaretz myself  

I agree that neither could be described as a huge supporter of Israel, which is why I don't rely on them for Israeli issues (or, more accurately, read it in conjunction with Haaretz to get a balanced perspective) but for Arab countries (including North Africa) I think that they are as good as gets.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2347 times:

Quoting BN747 (Reply 52):
Someone needs a few years in the military to see how these things work.

Dude....I've done research for so many years...and one doesn't NEED to do research to know that WHEN TERRORIST are SHOOTING AT YOUR COMPOUND, you BLOW THEM TO SMITHERINES without thinking twice about it! Obama is waaaaay too damn gunshy. That's his problem.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 53):
And here comes the hand grenade in the room, meant to shut everyone up by calling them racist if they say anything negative about Obama.

Exactly. BN lost the argument here.

No one is allowed to play the race card anymore around me, and if they do, they incur ZERO credibility.

[Edited 2013-09-28 07:45:45]


Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
WHEN TERRORIST are SHOOTING AT YOUR COMPOUND, you BLOW THEM TO SMITHERINES without thinking twice about it! Obama is waaaaay too damn gunshy. That's his problem.

So, because some European commander decided it would take hours to get troops and supplies to Benghazi, it is Obama's fault? Obama is bad because he did not bomb Syria into oblivion? Obama is bad because he has chosen to use peace instead of war?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 81):
So you believe the BBC and Al-Jazeera are not biased? Seriously? I find them both anti-semitic as hell! Big surprise.

They are far less biased than any American news outlet. As far as the perceived anti-Semitism you claim, don't you think there needs to be a balance to the "back Israel at all cost" thinking of the United States? There should be an Israeli state. But, there should also be a Palestinian state. And a Kurdish state.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2311 times:

Well just over you we see that being against what Israel does equals being anti-semitic. Seems the race card cuts both ways.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 37):
There are a number of US state flags that feature weapons of some kind. What does that tell us about those states?

I looked but found no weapons on any US state flag. Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_U.S._states



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2286 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 85):
Well just over you we see that being against what Israel does equals being anti-semitic. Seems the race card cuts both ways.

Some people believe there are only black and white as answers while others understand there are a million or more shades of grey.

Some people would say that, since I believe there should be a Palestinian state that I am anti-Semitic. It is not black-and-white. That is my point. Just because one person or a news source talks about wanting a Palestinian state does not always mean they hate Israel or Jews.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3717 posts, RR: 2
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 86):

Take a quick look at the Massachusetts flag...there are actually TWO

Bow and a sword (born and raised there...never saw the sword before!)



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 86):
Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 89):

There are others. Virginia has a man holding a spear over another he has defeated, New York features a sword held by the personification of Justice. Perhaps the latter fits most closely with the point to which I responded.
Then there is North Dakota with an eagle clutching arrows...


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5940 posts, RR: 5
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2237 times:

Also Delaware and Georgia


Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 91, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2190 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 84):
So, because some European commander decided it would take hours to get troops and supplies to Benghazi, it is Obama's fault? Obama is bad because he did not bomb Syria into oblivion? Obama is bad because he has chosen to use peace instead of war?

You just proved my point 100%. We shouldn't rely on a EUROPEAN BASED commander for our own diplomatic compounds. Obama should've known this was coming a long time ago. Hell, didn't that ambassador say they got warnings?!

And where the hell did you get Syria from?! I never once suggested bombing Syria. I say stay the hell away from there, we have no business there.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 92, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

How is Europe involved?.

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 93, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
We shouldn't rely on a EUROPEAN BASED commander for our own diplomatic compounds.

We have commanders for our bases in Europe. These are American commanders on American bases controlling American troops. These bases and troops and commanders were the closest to Benghazi is why I brought it up.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
Obama should've known this was coming a long time ago. Hell, didn't that ambassador say they got warnings?!

Yes and he acted in the manner he felt was appropriate. It was the diplomat who declined extra security after Obama administration officials offered it. I can see how you would think that Obama denied the compound extra security.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
And where the hell did you get Syria from?! I never once suggested bombing Syria. I say stay the hell away from there, we have no business there.

You are the one screaming that Obama is gunshy.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 94, posted (1 year 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
We shouldn't rely on a EUROPEAN BASED commander for our own diplomatic compounds.

The United States has military forces in large numbers able to make a hostile landing in a foreign country in only a few places around the world.


For our diplomatic compounds in Central and South America - that commander is in Miami, FL.

For our diplomatic compounds in Far East Asia - that commander is in Hawaii

For our diplomatic compounds in Southwest Asia - that commander is in Tampa, FL.

For our diplomatic compounds in Europe - that commander is in Germany.

For our diplomatic compounds in Africa, except Egypt - that commander is in Stuttgart, Germany.

Basing the African command in Germany was how Donald Rumsfeld setup the command - based on the availability of logistics, support and communications capability in Suttgart which the US does not have anywhere in Africa.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 95, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

As Libya spirals further out of control...

Search; Libyan Prime Minister Is Kidnapped, Then Freed New York Times

CAIRO — Libya’s prime minister, Ali Zeidan, was kidnapped from a hotel in the capital, Tripoli, on Thursday and briefly held in an apparent act of retaliation for his presumed consent to the capture of a suspected Qaeda leader by an American commando team..........
A spokesman for the coalition, which calls itself the Operations Room of Libya’s Revolutionaries, said the prime minister’s “arrest” came after a statement by Secretary of State John Kerry that “the Libyan government was aware of the operation” that captured the suspected Qaeda leader, Reuters reported.

The prime minister’s kidnapping was the most serious blow yet to the credibility of Libya’s fragile transitional government. And it could also be a grave setback for American efforts to hunt down other terrorist suspects believed to be at large on Libyan soil,.....


This was really inexcusable of Kerry. Who is going to do business with him if he can't keep his mouth shut. And do we really need press conferences immediately announcing our commando operations?


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 96, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1711 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
didn't that ambassador say they got warnings?!

Yes. And, despite those warnings, he still went. On his own.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 91):
We shouldn't rely on a EUROPEAN BASED commander for our own diplomatic compounds.

So, you want the military micro-managed? Like in Vietnam? That worked out well, didn't it?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 97, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 96):
So, you want the military micro-managed? Like in Vietnam? That worked out well, didn't it?

It's barely even managed at all right now. Look at how we handled Iraq.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7834 posts, RR: 5
Reply 98, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1664 times:

I don't see the big deal, 5 died, 10 were injured, is it really worth all the anguish and a witch hunt.

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12885 posts, RR: 46
Reply 99, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1646 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 98):
I don't see the big deal, 5 died, 10 were injured, is it really worth all the anguish and a witch hunt.

It will always be worth it for the right as long as a Democrat's in the White House.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 100, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1614 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 97):
It's barely even managed at all right now. Look at how we handled Iraq.

"You go in with the military you have, not the military you want" -Donald Rumsfeld

Besides, what does that have to do with an ambassador who decided, on his own, to go to Benghazi knowing full well Sept. 11 was coming up? And, when the fire fight was underway, it would have taken hours, if not days, for the military to do anything. How is all of that Obama's fault? Why was there not this much faux outrage over the Kenya and Tanzania bombings? Or over the dead service men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or the barracks bombing in Lebanon in the 1980s? We didn't hear anyone calling endless hearings to simply blame Reagan for that one.

It was a tragedy that our ambassador detail died. No one but no one is denying that. However, it has been proven time and again that Obama had nothing at all to do with their deaths. Why don't these right-wingers work this hard on getting the government open?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 101, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 100):
However, it has been proven time and again that Obama had nothing at all to do with their deaths. Why don't these right-wingers work this hard on getting the government open?

That is highly simplistic. We should not have been there in the first place. Obama created the chain of events that led to his death. I for one don't dwell on that and doing so is just a smokescreen covering the big picture.

The current state of affairs in Libya IS a direct result of an Obama decision. That is all.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 102, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

It is noticeable that no-one cares a bit about what is actually happening in Libya. The title of the thread could easily be changed to "The Executive Blunders..." because it is clear that Libya is merely an excuse to bash a President who is unpopular in some quarters.

Hospitals in Tripoli or Benghazi closing for lack of security: who cares? Oil distribution disrupted over royalties or security concerns:who cares? Prime Minister abducted: who cares? The real question is, how does this make Obama look bad?

Being born in Libya I can only respond, who cares? While real people die for lack of basic resources, US politicians can continue to worry about important things like who can pontificate the loudest over things they don't either comprehend or think matter beyond point scoring.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 103, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1605 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 102):
Being born in Libya I can only respond, who cares? While real people die for lack of basic resources, US politicians can continue to worry about important things like who can pontificate the loudest over things they don't either comprehend or think matter beyond point scoring.

You're right. We should not discuss Libya at all. If not for this thread that I keep dragging up from death, Libya would not be mentioned at all anywhere. We should all just forget about it. i'm sorry.


User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 104, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 103):

Discuss Libya all you want, if it is Libya that you are duscussing. But it clear from the previous responses that Libya is not the issue. Not a single person has responded to my earlier post regarding the different views in Libya itself. I suspect that there is a reason for that which goes beyond a lack of knowledge. My own earlier response indicates my failing to recognise the purpose of this thread. The issue of interest is the weakness of Obama, not the problems within Libya. Your own earlier post appeared to be more concerned with Kerry keeping his mouth shut and not the safety of an abducted Prime Minister.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 105, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

You are going to have to realize that US politics is having a direct effect on Libya, like it or not. The average Libyan might want to be concerned about that.

User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1502 posts, RR: 4
Reply 106, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 104):
Discuss Libya all you want, if it is Libya that you are duscussing. But it clear from the previous responses that Libya is not the issue.

You're right of course- Libya is being used as a political football; most of those ranting about Libya couldn't find it on a map.

I am interested in your insight since you have some connection to the place- was regime change in Libya the right thing to do? From an outsider's perspective the war in Libya was far swifter and more effective than the failures of Afghanistan and Iraq, however is it the case that the aftermath is just as disastrous, or do you see a positive future for the Libyans?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 107, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 101):
We should not have been there in the first place. Obama created the chain of events that led to his death. I for one don't dwell on that and doing so is just a smokescreen covering the big picture.

The current state of affairs in Libya IS a direct result of an Obama decision. That is all.

Like Iraq?

IIRC, people were begging for the United States to assist the new Libyan government and new Libyan forces to help get rid of the Qaddafi influences. Wouldn't that be a coalition?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 108, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1524 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 100):
"You go in with the military you have, not the military you want" -Donald Rumsfeld

To quote this guy is not such a good idea....He had no idea how to deliver warfare.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 109, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 108):
To quote this guy is not such a good idea....He had no idea how to deliver warfare.

But, that is the same thing you are being critical of with this administration. This administration was handed a hot mess made by the previous administration. Nothing started from scratch.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3723 posts, RR: 3
Reply 110, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1472 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 109):
But, that is the same thing you are being critical of with this administration. This administration was handed a hot mess made by the previous administration. Nothing started from scratch.

LOL. Blame it on Bush. Fact is, Bush had quite a bit of success taming Qaddafi.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 104):
Discuss Libya all you want, if it is Libya that you are duscussing. But it clear from the previous responses that Libya is not the issue. Not a single person has responded to my earlier post regarding the different views in Libya itself. I suspect that there is a reason for that which goes beyond a lack of knowledge. My own earlier response indicates my failing to recognise the purpose of this thread. The issue of interest is the weakness of Obama, not the problems within Libya. Your own earlier post appeared to be more concerned with Kerry keeping his mouth shut and not the safety of an abducted Prime Minister.

I thought about this some more. You are right. I for one do not care about the Libyan people. Never did, never will (I have visited Libya neighbors and know full well how my society is regarded by Arab Muslims).
What I do care about is the ability of some sand rat in southwest Libya with access to a pipeline gate valve costing me more at the fuel pump next week. It is my most fervent desire to make Libya, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, et al irrelevant in my life. I am tired of the constant drama that comes from the region, if not about Israel then its about Sunni/Shiite and it is costing my country significant blood and treasure.
It should be clear that Western interest in Libya and the rest is singularly tied to oil, Euro claims of "human rights" notwithstanding. Nothing more. Without oil, Libya would have all the relevance of Ghana, for example. Bring on the electric cars and that is the sole reason I voted for Obama, certainly not for his foreign policy blunders. Blunders that do need to be talked about, and need to kept in the news because they are causing us even more drama....and I expect more blood and treasure before anything subsides.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 111, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 108):
He had no idea how to deliver warfare.

That guy was the Republican Party "Go To" expert on the military and warfare for close to 40 years. He set the policy of civilianizing as many support functions as possible. To cut the size of the US military down to a bare minimum.

Yes, I agree the Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and Bush II expert really didn't know how to deliver warfare, but that puts you firmly into 'liberal' camp to make that statement.

But that quote is very accurate. You have to fight with the Army you have. It's just his idea of an Army to have was barely capable of long range sustained operations.

[Edited 2013-10-12 12:09:34]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 112, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 110):
Blame it on Bush. Fact is, Bush had quite a bit of success taming Qaddafi.

I am not "blaming Bush" for Libya. I am simply saying the Bush administration started wars and expanded the government. Obama simply let the people of Libya do what they wanted. Bush's first instinct would have been blow them to kingdom come. Obama kept the United States out of it until they needed help. And, when diplomatic outposts were set up in Tripoli and Benghazi, equipment was taken there, as well. When the firefight broke out in Benghazi, equipment was stolen. Not a shock. In the chaos, things get stolen. Remember all the looting and stealing that took place in Iraq? Again: Not blaming Bush but, rather, pointing out facts.

However, if Obama is going to be the only person to blame for Benghazi, then it would only be fair to blame Bush for Iraq. If Obama is going to be held accountable for Benghazi, then we also need to hold Bush accountable for Iraq.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7959 posts, RR: 19
Reply 113, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1406 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 109):
But, that is the same thing you are being critical of with this administration. This administration was handed a hot mess made by the previous administration. Nothing started from scratch.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 110):
LOL. Blame it on Bush. Fact is, Bush had quite a bit of success taming Qaddafi.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 112):
I am not "blaming Bush" for Libya.

You are blaming bush on other things, though. Obama's job was to FIX things Bush made wrong...not make them worse.

Well....he made them worse.

My job outlook is absolutely horrid because of Obama....that's why I moved to Japan.



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11798 posts, RR: 15
Reply 114, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 113):
Well....he made them worse

How? Job growth has happened. Dow is higher than ever. People are finally going to afford health care. How is all of that bad?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 113):
My job outlook is absolutely horrid because of Obama

You can't get a job in your field of study and that is his fault? That is insane. I don't have a 2013 Jetta TDI. BLAME OBAMA!! I don't have an iPhone. BLAME OBAMA!! You sound ridiculous. I am glad you are in Japan. We don't need you. At least the tin foil hat wearing FOX following crowd here has the cajones to stay and fight for what they are told to believe in.



Life in the wall is a drag.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Argentina Can't Keep The Lights On posted Wed Aug 1 2007 16:58:18 by MaverickM11
U.S. Auto Industry; Giving Up On Luxury Sedans? posted Thu Sep 14 2006 22:36:47 by Superfly
Whats Going On For T-giving? posted Mon Nov 24 2003 17:43:55 by AA61hvy
Strom Thurmond: Keep It On The Down Low posted Sat Jun 28 2003 18:57:36 by Johnboy
US Giving Up On Iraq Already? posted Fri May 2 2003 10:49:04 by Eg777er
Obama's Speech On Syria: Your Thoughts posted Tue Sep 10 2013 18:25:15 by TWA772LR
Sepp Blatter Defiant On Qatar WC posted Mon Sep 9 2013 18:29:17 by alberchico
Sir David Frost Dies Of Heart Attack On Cunards QE posted Sun Sep 1 2013 04:42:02 by OA260
Ashes 2013: England Players Urinate On The Pitch posted Wed Aug 28 2013 06:41:13 by Revelation
Der Spiegel: NSA Spying On The UN posted Sun Aug 25 2013 14:10:04 by Mortyman