Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party  
User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 782 posts, RR: 1
Posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

After John Boehner has continued to defy his constituents along with many other Republicans in regards to most peoples wishes for our Congressmen and Senators to do everything within their power to stop/defund Obamacare along with not going along with Obama on Syria it seems more and more relevant that there is a real need for a third political party in the U.S..

Could it be that the Tea Party could or should break off from the Republican Party to form a true third party? The Republican Party has parted ways with Reagan in its belief of the Constitution and fiscal responsibility and is trying to be the "me too" party comparing its deeds with the Democratic Party.

So, is it time for a third party or is the Republican Party salvageable?


GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
148 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4323 times:

Neither one of the established parties represents "We the People".

I have believed for years that we do need a true third-party choice.
The sad thing is the established parties have so much muscle and money they snuff-out any attempt to establish another party.
A good example is the "Tea Party" movement.

Just because there is a core group of American's with a different opinion of how things should be---the established parties AND the so-called "mainstream media" used smear campaigns to de-legitimize them. They were made to look like some kind of freaks. Crazy people who had the audacity to stand-up for "We the People".

I would and will support a party who truly represents the average American.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4306 times:

There is... http://www.lp.or/

Gary Johnson seemed a very sensible, level headed and intelligent chap. Unfortunately the voting system in many countries always results in a 2 party system because people are more concerned about the other party not getting in.


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2170 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

As long as the U.S. keeps its majoritarian voting system, a Tea Party splitoff will mean that the Democratic Party will win every future election. Hardly the desired outcome for the far right.

In the unlikely event that a proportional voting system is introduced, there will probably a number of new parties. There may be room for a libertarian party, a social-democrat party, a far-right populist party (like the Tea Party), and possibly a green party alongside the GOP and the Democrats.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineAesma From Reunion, joined Nov 2009, 6959 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

You already have two right-wing parties, what you lack is a left-wing one !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
After John Boehner has continued to defy his constituents along with many other Republicans in regards to most peoples wishes for our Congressmen and Senators to do everything within their power to stop/defund Obamacare along with not going along with Obama on Syria

                 

If it makes you feel any better, hardcore liberals are just as unhappy, but they don't have their own Fox/Rush outlets to vent. Gitmo's still open, the NSA's on the rampage, we're still using our brawn instead of our brains, etc.

However the Congress still requires super majorities to get anything through the Senate and 2/3rds to get anything past a veto, so the odds of anyone wanting to splinter their party just don't exist.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 1):
I have believed for years that we do need a true third-party choice.
The sad thing is the established parties have so much muscle and money they snuff-out any attempt to establish another party.
A good example is the "Tea Party" movement.

Or them self-destruct like the Reform Party. The party started to split in 1996 because Perot decided to run for President again since he was the only Reform Party candidate that would be able to get Federal matching funds due to his 1992 independent run. A small faction split off in 1997 and is still around as a Tea Party-type group. The Reform Party failed to build on their first electoral success when Jesse Ventura was elected Governor of Minnesota and the party also garnered more votes than all of the other third parties combined in the mid-term elections. In the 2000 presidential campaign, the party moved well to the right (even further than the GOP) by nominating Pat Buchanan as their presidential candidate, which caused a major rift in the party and left it in tatters. The party supported Ralph Nader in 2004, but only had ballot access in 7 states at that time. In 2008 and in 2012, the Reform Party USA fielded candidates for President and Vice President, but were only on the ballot in Mississippi in 2008 and only on the ballot in Florida in 2012 (and had write-in status in less than a quarter of the states, but not enough to be elected).


User currently offlineArmitageShanks From UK - England, joined Dec 2003, 3646 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4205 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Gary Johnson seemed a very sensible, level headed and intelligent chap.

The Libertarian party has the biggest chance of becoming a legitimate party. I've voted for them in the last three presidential elections because they more closely match my political ideals.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1939 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
After John Boehner has continued to defy his constituents along with many other Republicans in regards to most peoples wishes for our Congressmen and Senators to do everything within their power to stop/defund Obamacare along with not going along with Obama on Syria it seems more and more relevant that there is a real need for a third political party in the U.S..

So because the leader of the opposition is actually not fighting the President tooth-and-nail on something for once, that means you need a third party? I think you may want to reconsider your line of thinking on that one...



Flying refined.
User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 782 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
So because the leader of the opposition is actually not fighting the President tooth-and-nail on something for once, that means you need a third party? I think you may want to reconsider your line of thinking on that one...

Not quite. I will never reconsider my thinking on this issue. Boehner is nothing more than a left wing yes man that does not and will not listen to the average folks in his district or the American people in general. Him going along with Obama on a strike against Syria when 95% of Americans do not want a conflict with Syria is impeachable in my book. I know that my views on most items are far to the right of middle without any doubt but to not listen to the people is tantamount of treason and worth finding an alternative.

I believe in the Constitution not the government. The Constitution has been altered and trampled and the leaders in Washington continue to defy Americans views on most items, they give themselves and their cohorts exemptions from Obamacare or if they don't get it they get subsidized to pay for it. Washington has become a group of elitists on both sides of the fence, their is no difference in Asses or Pachyderms in that regard. I don't mind saying it but I have never once voted for a Democrat or a even a Libertarian for that matter. I was a Young Republican in college, I have walked door to door for candidates but the Republican establishment continues to bend its views to popular view and some even support Obama on Obamacare which is administered by the IRS! Who in their right mind wants their healthcare administered by the IRS? I have supported the Republican Party on every Federal, State and local election since 1984 when I first voted. I am at the point that if my views and more importantly the views of our founding fathers and Reagan are ignored, tainted or perverted then it is time to look elsewhere. I live in Athens, GA, home of the University of Georgia and most likely the most liberal city in Georgia. I have friends who are avid liberals that share the same frustration on their side of the fence as well and I respect their opinions and their views but I just believe from a Constitutional view we have strayed from our beginnings and original intentions so much so to the point of needing a fresh set of faces and ideas based upon the Constitution and ideas of the original writers.

I posted this thread not to bash the left or right for that matter but to gauge peoples feelings for the need to look elsewhere for representation which is something that is sorely lacking at the moment and has been for a while.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
You already have two right-wing parties, what you lack is a left-wing one !

Just the opposite my friend, just the opposite.

Last word for tonight - read Mark Levin's new book, The Liberty Amendments. Great Read.



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1525 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
So, is it time for a third party or is the Republican Party salvageable?

It would be great to see a third party, but of course it can't possibly be a far-right movement like the Tea Party because as has been mentioned, that will simply split the right-wing vote and ensure the Democrats win every election for the foreseeable future.

There is most definitely space in the middle of the two parties though, particularly for a fiscally conservative but socially liberal party. Note this is not the same as libertarian- the libertarian party tends to attract free-market ideologues who will never gain any significant traction with the electorate.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11806 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
I believe in the Constitution not the government. The Constitution has been altered and trampled and the leaders in Washington continue to defy Americans views on most items

This is what it comes down to: Show me where in the Constitution it says political parties MUST posses insane amounts of money to even be considered for candidacy?

IMHO, the only reason Republicans and Democrats are continually elected is brand recognition. They have the money to back up their product.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2845 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4097 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

As a republican conservative I wish the tea party would just disappear. This is getting ridiculous. Obamacare isn't going anywhere. Vote libertarian if you don't like the republicans. The Tea Party is one of the biggest issues in the republican party right now IMO. Even if you go out and prove it is a grass roots movement, they have been demonized by the media to the point that no moderate will vote for a tea party candidate. I won't even vote for a tea party candidate. I wish it was as easy as the republicans saying "We don't want you." but they know that they would lose election after election without them. Which is silly because these tea partiers probably would never vote democrat in the first place...

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
Boehner is nothing more than a left wing yes man that does not and will not listen to the average folks in his district or the American people in general. Him going along with Obama on a strike against Syria when 95% of Americans do not want a conflict with Syria is impeachable in my book.

Huh? Boehner won his district with 66% of the vote in 2010 and was reelected in 2012 after going unopposed by the democrats. His district must really hate him... When it comes to Syria, do you know something we don't know? Because frankly these guys aren't rushing to a decision. They are carefully weighing what they are going to do. I may not agree with going into Syria, but it doesn't mean there aren't justifiable reasons for going in.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
I am at the point that if my views and more importantly the views of our founding fathers and Reagan are ignored, tainted or perverted then it is time to look elsewhere.

What does Reagan have to do with current political views? Don't get me wrong, I like Reagan. But to say his views have any bearing on the current political process is absurd. It's a different world now. His enemy was a well known megastate. We fight people in streets. Reagan's intel gathering were aircraft. We have satellites and electronic surveillance. You can't bring Reagan into this without making the right look like some dude stuck in the 80s. I think the constitution has absolutely been stomped on. But having an extreme edge of the party break off to make their own party which will fade away quickly isn't how you get things done. You are only hurting the already slight chance of something being done.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 10):
There is most definitely space in the middle of the two parties though, particularly for a fiscally conservative but socially liberal party.

I absolutely agree. I would vote for that party and never look back.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
IMHO, the only reason Republicans and Democrats are continually elected is brand recognition. They have the money to back up their product.

Well they do have the money to back it up, but they also have time on their side. I grew up in a world dominated by R's and D's, my parents grew up in a world dominated by R's and D's, and my grandparents grew up in a world dominated by R's and D's. The tea party has been around for what, 4 years? In that time they have been tagged as a racist group(which I firmly disagree with, even if I don't like them), but they have also been tagged as group financed by the rich. We have enough of that with our current parties. We don't need a third party with extreme ideas financed by the same people who already finance the other parties.
Pat



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4391 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4094 times:

The presidency of Ronald Reagan has become so hopelessly misconstrued as the epitome of your brand of virtue, it's hard to even comprehend. Let me spell it out for you. Yes, Reagan was Republican and leaves good lingering sound bytes and messages to the conservative movement. However, were he to be around today, he would be perilously out of his element and quickly marginalized as a flagrant RINO based on his record, or be like Schwarzenegger, the aww, look, this Hollywood celebrity is calling himself a Republican, isn't that cute?

You talk about Reagan in vague and misty eyed adoration like "belief of the Constitution". Ok, Reagan's stances on gun rights and support of the AWB would leave him absolutely lambasted by the NRA and there are very few places he would be able to be nominated as a Republican. Similarly his work with missile treaties and other diplomacy with USSR etc would marginalize him as weak and unprincipled by the far right.

The list goes on. Not to even mention lackluster records on tax cuts, deficit increases, and federal government size. With all this, it's hard to even imagine how he could be so adored by the extreme right. The answer is simple why this is: it's all superficial. Listen to a speeches and sound-bytes, and let your imagination do the rest. You don't know better and you don't care to know better. If you really have interest and idolize Ronald Reagan, why not invest the time to gain more knowledge and understanding of his career. Learning is good. And it might help you avoid similar unfortunate scenarios with your hand in the proverbial Tea Party cookie jar. But you won't, because history and ideology is not simple enough for you to want to understand. No doubt you could, but complexities and shades of gray in such matters have no place in your world view. It's pathetic, and i pity the lack of any semblance of intellectual curiosity.

No doubt you've gone to the retort of last resort: you're older than me. Wow. Than how come I am the one sounding informed and mature, while you wallow in this thread demonstrating the rudimentary understanding of the political system and extreme naivety and idealism.

You can do better.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11806 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 13):
In that time they have been tagged as a racist group(which I firmly disagree with, even if I don't like them), but they have also been tagged as group financed by the rich

And so could Occupy.

We need money out of politics. Period. I don't care what party or where on the political spectrum a person stands, money has no business being in politics.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21876 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
So, is it time for a third party or is the Republican Party salvageable?

If the Tea Party separated from the GOP, then the GOP might actually be a viable, sensible choice.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 15):
The presidency of Ronald Reagan has become so hopelessly misconstrued as the epitome of your brand of virtue, it's hard to even comprehend.

I don't think people who like to invoke the name of Reagan really know what Reagan did. It's ironically similar to a religion, in which you find some way to invoke the deity no matter what you're trying to do. And it makes people look ridiculous.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

This guy nailed it:

Five Steps to restoring Constitutional Government

1) No bill is to exceed 10 pages.
2) All bills are to have the constitutional article attached giving the bill its authority.
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.
4) All bills are to written in laymen's terms and posted on line for seven days before being introduced on the floor.
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

http://richardlynch4congress.blogspo...s-to-restoring-constitutional.html



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1939 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
Not quite. I will never reconsider my thinking on this issue. Boehner is nothing more than a left wing yes man that does not and will not listen to the average folks in his district or the American people in general. Him going along with Obama on a strike against Syria when 95% of Americans do not want a conflict with Syria is impeachable in my book. I know that my views on most items are far to the right of middle without any doubt but to not listen to the people is tantamount of treason and worth finding an alternative.

Although I agree with you that the US desperately needs a third party, your opening post suggests you want it for all the wrong reasons. The purpose of a third party is to break the stalemate that is pretty much a certainty in a two-party parliamentary system. Seeing Boehner agree with Obama on something is particularly refreshing in my opinion (though I disagree with both of them on this specific issue...). The motivation for you starting this thread is simply rooted in your anti-left mindset it would appear. Anyone that agrees with a Democrat is mud on your boots. Which makes it all the more hilarious that you said:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
I posted this thread not to bash the left

.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
You already have two right-wing parties, what you lack is a left-wing one !

Just the opposite my friend, just the opposite.

You need to travel a bit, or maybe just do some high-level reading, because the US is quite significantly to the right when viewed on a global scale.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 10):
There is most definitely space in the middle of the two parties though, particularly for a fiscally conservative but socially liberal party.

Or how about a party that simply doesn't stick its nose in so many social issues?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
We need money out of politics. Period. I don't care what party or where on the political spectrum a person stands, money has no business being in politics.

So long as government continues to try and put a collar on the free market, there will be organizations and individuals with a business interest in who the successful candidate is.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
If the Tea Party separated from the GOP, then the GOP might actually be a viable, sensible choice.

But they would still be as fiscally irresponsible as always. The Tea Party really isn't functionally doing any harm to the GOP, they only provide terrible optics, but functionally the GOP do enough to screw themselves over.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
1) No bill is to exceed 10 pages.

That's far too vague. I can easily create a bill in 10 pages that has smaller font and no indentation, essentially a page of pure text. It would be more sensible to limit the number of sections/clauses contained within the document (within reason).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

Seems like a no-brainer   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

The language of this point suggests that all bills have a predetermined shelf life, or am I reading incorrectly?



Flying refined.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
in regards to most peoples wishes

I hate to disappoint you - but "most people" do not wish to see Obamacare stopped / defunded / repealed.

And certainly without the Republican Party offering an alternative program to go into effect to provide quality health insurance available to all Americans.

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
is the Republican Party salvageable?

Yes - if they throw out all the Tea Party extremists who want to destroy the United States.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21876 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3883 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):

1) No bill is to exceed 10 pages.

So he's obviously never written legislation before, and has no idea how it works. Bills should be as long as they need to be - no more, no less.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
2) All bills are to have the constitutional article attached giving the bill its authority.

Do we really need to have Article 1, Section 8 written on every bill? Not that it would mean anything anyway.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

Reasonable enough, though I wonder how closely this would actually be followed in practice.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
4) All bills are to written in laymen's terms and posted on line for seven days before being introduced on the floor.

Being posted on-line is fine, but requiring everything to be in layman's terms (which is a good idea) is going to run up against the 10 page limit. Might just be a better idea for people to learn to read and understand English.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

I don't really have a problem with that.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
But they would still be as fiscally irresponsible as always.

I'm not so sure about that. What I do know is that they could actually govern. The Tea Party cannot - they've shown themselves to be incapable of doing it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10349 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 1):
I would and will support a party who truly represents the average American.

This is a nice sound byte, but the "average American" is not very average, so to speak. Meaning, one "average American" can be vastly different from another "average American". If you actually averaged all the different views of the "average American", you'd probably end up with something that not many people would particularly want or agree with.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
IMHO, the only reason Republicans and Democrats are continually elected is brand recognition. They have the money to back up their product.

Very true.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
This guy nailed it:

Five Steps to restoring Constitutional Government

If he was going for "Five Very Generic and Unspecific Steps that Create Hundreds of Loopholes and Arguments", then I'd say you're right.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1525 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

I would love for this to be the case, but those ridiculous clauses are there for a reason- to get things passed by essentially bribing their opponents. Given how deadlocked Congress is right now I fear this would lead to greater inaction.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 782 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
I hate to disappoint you - but "most people" do not wish to see Obamacare stopped / defunded / repealed.

And certainly without the Republican Party offering an alternative program to go into effect to provide quality health insurance available to all Americans.

Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

As far as an alternative, there was already an alternative. It is called private health insurance, pick up the phone book and look for Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Cigna, etc. You also might want to check with your employer. If you are unemployed I am sorry but then that is more reason to blame Obamacare as it is the single biggest factor slowing hiring in the US today. Some may be unemployed but they have health insurance. They cant buy food, pay their mortgage or car payment but they have a free phone and health insurance.

I am sorry, I didn't go to college, work my rear end off with my compnay, put my name on the dotted line to build my poultry houses, put my kids through college, save for my retirement just so I can help pay for someone else's health insurance. That is exactly what is happening, just like the 51% of Americans that actually pay taxes those same folks are footing the bill for the rest. Last time I looked there was no article or amendment for that matter in the Constitution that said health insurance was a right. There is a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If having health insurance is a pursuit of yours then by all means go after it you have that right.


I know many will say I am an uncaring right wing nutjob but they are entitled to their opinion. I know my priority is my children, my wife and the people that work for me and my wife. I want to see everyone do well and prosper but under the current environment of deafening regulations, taxation and oversight it has become all too hard for many on the ends to do so.



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4796 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):

Nah, I just hope you get your way so this country can move beyond the self centered utopia that the Tea Party worships.

The 15-20% that the Tea Party would hopefully enchant would be more than enough to destroy the current GOP.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):

Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

Oh really?

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch...least-popular-option-for-obamacare

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...an-to-defund-obamacare-poll-finds/


25 Post contains links zckls04 : But rfields is correct in that most people do not want to defund it: http://americablog.com/2013/08/poll-...obamacare-hate-defunding-even.html The pr
26 Post contains images jetblueguy22 : I don't think Occupy really has the tag of being financed by the rich. I think it is believed to be more sloppy than it is financially sound. I agree
27 Mir : And it wasn't working. The whole reason we had health care reform was because the system was incredibly broken. Going back to that is not a viable op
28 kric777 : While I agree with the Tea Party on fiscal issues, I have no use for their social agenda. Where is there room for someone like myself who believes in
29 caliatenza : Thats why the President will have Bill Clinton out there explaining what exactly Obamacare is going to do. Personally, i am waiting for October as we
30 ltbewr : In the past, national 'third parties' have faced several obstacles to becoming viable ones in the USA. - They become too radical, narrow, absolute and
31 Aesma : Without changes in your political system it won't happen. There needs to be a simpler system to get on ballots, in a presidential system, only the pre
32 seb146 : Like telling businesses they can not pollute water? Or put nails in teddy bears? Things like that? Or not selling mortgages to people banks know they
33 DocLightning : That's because the behavior of the Tea Party became so absurd (beyond "extreme" in many ways) that they didn't need to be portrayed as "freaks" by an
34 Superfly : Third parties are only spoilers as long as we have a winner-take-all system. True. They have MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, New York Times, Washington Post, Bo
35 B777LRF : I have always found it incomprehensible how a nation of almost 300 million people and an unparalleled diversity of culture, race and religion, can be
36 Mir : Not only that, but you're also paying for the people who don't have insurance but end up in the emergency room anyway because that's their only optio
37 Post contains images Superfly : That is incorrect. There are dozens of parties in the US but due to the winner-take-all system, people choose to vote for 1 of the 2 major parties. I
38 RomeoBravo : No you're not. You're paying for a commodity, that commodity is health coverage, and is only applicable to you.
39 Akiestar : Which is not necessarily caused by winner-take-all/FPTP (first-past-the-post). The UK has three parties in the House of Commons and it uses FPTP. Sam
40 rfields5421 : Since most of the bills that actually run the government today are Continuing Resolutions - that requirement is fulfilled for the really important bi
41 Superfly : One of those other factors being a winner-take-all system. People have the choice to vote for who ever they want or any party. I don't like the two p
42 CXfirst : If you don't have private health insurance (you simply cannot afford it), and get diagnosed with a life-threatening, but treatable (expensive) diseas
43 seb146 : True, but CNN, CBS, ABC are more middle-of-the-road and the newspapers you cite are being bought by Koch Industries. That leaves MSNBC. Compared to t
44 Superfly : Where are you getting that? Especially since I gave an example of a left-wing 3rd party that made a difference.
45 seb146 : So you think there can be center or center left or extreme left, they just can't have any media attention, otherwise they are radicals who control al
46 Revelation : Yes. For instance, the Patriot Act used the word 'collect' without defining it to the Nth degree. The NSA decided that the restrictions implied by th
47 seb146 : "Just to name a few" because that's all there is. Even if one counts CNN, CBS, and ABC as "liberal". What I don't understand is the ongoing thought o
48 Aesma : But the UK and Canada have parliamentary political systems. The US has a presidential system. The presidential election is the most important one, an
49 GDB : ....And Ross Perot likely helped Clinton win in 1992. Wasn't there also a pro Segregationist party in '68 as well, with Wallace? Our own Liberal Demo
50 Post contains images Revelation : Guess you do need to get working on that third party: However your problem is that the document you love so much, the Constitution, sets up a system
51 DeltaMD90 : Actually, I completely agree. The left and right wing have their preferred outlets, but both messages have an easy way to get out to a wide audience.
52 Superfly : Ross Perot helped Clinton but not enough to change the election outcome. Poll after poll showed Clinton beating Papa Bush in a head-to-head match up.
53 seb146 : And, conversely, there is conservative control of conservative media. Again, hardly a shocker. Another interesting point: There are hard core liberal
54 einsteinboricua : Sure it does. Aren't corporations people? Didn't Romney himself say "Corporations are people"? Whether the Founding Fathers meant it to interpret act
55 Aesma : I find it funny that you call the left "liberal" in the US, because it loses all meaning when talking about the far left. The far left is anything bu
56 ImperialEagle : You just proved my point. Anybody who differs from the mantra of the left is smeared and made to look like goofy people. Thats the plan. Just delegit
57 Mir : No, just people who work to disrupt the political process and govern through gridlock rather than doing what elected representatives are supposed to
58 seb146 : That is the label given to the left by "conservatives" like FOX and Rush and main stream media. Anyone who dares speak out or have an opinion differe
59 DeltaMD90 : Yes, that is pretty annoying isn't it? Wish people on this forum wouldn't do the exact same thing to anything even slightly right of them... Honestly
60 seb146 : I think it is high time this country had an honest and open discussion about political agendas of news organizations. It would be great if FOX/AM rad
61 ImperialEagle : You mean like the Obama Administration. See. Again. My point is proven. Like the Tea-Party in other words.
62 Revelation : To me the difference is that the right speaks of the media as some vast conspiracy geared towards preventing the "truth" from getting out. But do you
63 deltadawg : It's headed there.
64 casinterest : Not nearly as fast as the right is moving. The center will be a giant hole, and at this point the Democratic party is sticking closest to it. There w
65 Post contains images deltadawg : Doubtful. Who is the leading Democrat candidate? Biden? Clinton? Weiner? Warner? O'Malley? The Dems are in just as predicament as the Republicans. Bi
66 Post contains links casinterest : Not really, Especially if Clinton runs . http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/politics/2016-poll-deep-dive/ " It showed 65% of Democrats and independents wh
67 seb146 : When Boehner said "we got 99% of what we wanted" then complained he didn't get everything he wanted because Obama didn't compromise? When one side ge
68 Aesma : About the free speech argument, I keep seeing this in several threads. Last time I checked news media in the US weren't closed by police, journalists
69 Revelation : What is interesting to me is that with all the Dem candidates you'd see pretty similar policy, but with Christie/Ryan/Paul/Rubio/Cruz/Santorum you'd
70 casinterest : It will be, because as this thread shows, there are really two different parties ( At Least!) present. Within the party there is such a demand for no
71 einsteinboricua : The Republicans in Congress aren't the ones who were elected to govern. If so, why didn't they take the White House? The president's agenda is subjec
72 jetblueguy22 : Just as the lies from the left wing talking heads can be found in 5 seconds. That's what talking heads do. Exaggerate everything because their audien
73 Post contains images tugger : Anytime you try to govern to an absolute (actually a spectrum of absolutes in this case) you will find that cannot govern effectively. It's even wors
74 seb146 : THANK YOU!!! Many of us who appear "liberal" and "extreme" (on both sides) want just that! But, that would put a whole lot of people out of work. Tho
75 DeltaMD90 : Well if you want to have an honest and open discussion I'd keep a more open mind than what you said in your second sentence I'm saying that it would
76 Mir : No, they've actually put out quite a few compromise plans on various subjects. If you're going to set the bar for "delegitimizing someone" at disagre
77 jetblueguy22 : It's because they don't have to. The White House is theirs. But that doesn't mean it is right for the republicans. They have to work things out. But
78 Post contains images deltadawg : If we had seven trillion dollars laying around burning a hole in our pockets to spend over the last five years then sure I would say agree with him b
79 DeltaMD90 : No arguments there. But look at healthcare. We have some of the best doctors and healthcare potential in the entire world and we are the world super
80 seb146 : The Tea Party started off with great ideas. However, they were co-opted by corporations and, like many other facets of the Republican party, are a wh
81 tugger : Actually... no. The Tea Party was co-opted by the social conservatives (possibly including the Evangelicals) of the Republican Party. They very much
82 Aesma : The rich are getting richer. Even in "socialist" Europe. The richest few are earning billions, some of them are "entrepreneurs", others aren't, that m
83 BMI727 : Considering that they could likely buy healthcare for less than 40% of their income, don't collect welfare, send their kids to private schools, and e
84 tugger : I have said it before, high taxes are not an answer but hey do need to be high enough to fund the expenses of a nation. What has to be implemented is
85 BMI727 : So when Seb asks what people get in return for their 40% tax rate, the answer is "not much." Certainly not more than people who pay far, far less, he
86 jetblueguy22 : Lets be fair here. Bush made a huge dent in the national debt. Now I'm not going to start the debate about whether or not the wars were justified. Bu
87 Post contains images tugger : Then you are badly misunderstanding what "much" is. "Much" is a strong safe functional society and nation that provides broad benefits that create va
88 jetblueguy22 : I may get jumped on for saying this but I freaking loved the Tea Party idea when it started. I thought it was fantastic and exactly what the country
89 DeltaMD90 : I find it very hard to effectively cover everyone without some kind of universal healthcare. It varies greatly between many Western nations... I'm al
90 seb146 : Because, for the 40%, they already get good schools, health care, roads, public transportation. Go spend a year in Germany or Sweden. Then, come back
91 jetblueguy22 : I don't think this is a one step fix all. I think the ACA was a good step forward. We can take what we've learned from it's implementation and see wh
92 BMI727 : "Broad" in that everyone receives those benefits, but only a few pick up the bulk of the tab for them The Army and the police protect people who aren
93 Mir : That argument works when you're talking about the infrastructure of the country (particularly when it comes to mass transit and long-distance rail).
94 casinterest : But people pick up the tab at different stages of their lives. The problem with your line of thinking here, is that everyone is in the same situation
95 einsteinboricua : As fair as I know, despite Democrats opposing certain Republican policies, one thing I've noticed was the eagerness on bipartisanship. Even when they
96 jetblueguy22 : They have less interaction, but you're talking about different cultures throughout the nation. When I moved from the Connecticut to North Dakota I we
97 casinterest : Not the point I was trying to make. Sorry about that. The point was that most folks that are Rich, that hit the 40% bracket are not taxed at 40% on t
98 BMI727 : Many people never do. Folks go right from school, to having kids and bouncing from one dead end job to the next. So what do such people do wrong? Don
99 casinterest : And this is where you are wrong. some folks get caught up in life's events. Some are very much victims of their environment, and this is where the Go
100 BMI727 : Why should any of that be my problem? So nothing then. There's just no vested interest on the part of others, so it's hardly fair to pass the cost on
101 deltadawg : You'll get no argument from me on that point. The difference between O & W though is that W racked up the debt on one too many wars and then he w
102 seb146 : Ask that question when talking about gay "marriage". And, when their only source of news is the extreme, they are very distrusting of foreigners or,
103 BMI727 : Liberals tell me that if enough of them vote to take my money I should be willing to give it, whether it's 10% or 60%. Yet when enough people decide
104 casinterest : It's not your problem, until it's your problem. And if you live alone and are very lucky in your career, you may minimize your risk. However bad thin
105 Post contains images PhilBy : If you ban political parties altogether you might be able to make the USA into a democracy. According to my French dictionary in French a Billion (as
106 rfields5421 : From what you've stated in the past - you are getting back about $125 in government services for every $50 you pay in taxes. Only after you start mak
107 Post contains images tugger : Of the government doesn't make people wealthy (overall), but the "you didn't build it" isn't directly about government. It is about the fact that no
108 Post contains images Aesma : I met a cousin from Canada recently (well Québec, she didn't like being called Canadian ) and she said people in Paris were strangely close everywhe
109 RyanairGuru : Without beating our own drum, I support Australia's system. Medical practices are privately owned, but the government pays a proportion of your bill.
110 seb146 : That is a great idea! It would never fly in the US, but it is a great idea! So, when a right-winger says they want government out of peoples' lives t
111 RomeoBravo : Nothing wrong with that, provided you are not living at the expense of others.
112 casinterest : We all live at the expense of others. We also live to benefit from others. At different points in life we do these things.
113 RomeoBravo : I certainly don't.
114 Rara : Nice to hear you fended for yourself right after birth.
115 tugger : You don't have parents or they/people didn't raise you? You didn't attend school (that had some element of public support)? You don't use the transit
116 RomeoBravo : My parents chose to have me, not the other way around. But i'm sure my taxes will be paying off their pensions and their debt anyway.
117 tugger : Just as the next generation shall be doing for you. Tugg
118 RomeoBravo : I doubt it. I have zero debt and bleed 30k a year in income tax/NI. But we seem to be drifting from the point.[Edited 2013-09-18 11:03:50]
119 casinterest : No. You seem to be stuck on an irrelevant point about being perfectly self sufficient and indulgent. Good luck with it. you may be lucky enough to st
120 RomeoBravo : Nothing self indulgent about my lifestyle. In spite of the Bank of England's utter contempt for savers I live well within my means because i plan to
121 tugger : I don't. How much do you think it costs to keep people healthy and to care for them in their old age? How much do you think you will cost 40+ years f
122 RomeoBravo : Considerably less than i'm putting into the economy now. Afterall, if i'm paying more tax than about 95%+ of the population, and i'm not covering the
123 BMI727 : Exactly, and if it is my problem then it's my problem and not anyone else's. Paying for Joe Blow on the street is a bad investment since I don't bene
124 rfields5421 : You've stated you are planning to study engineering. There is no way you are paying the full cost of your education. You are certainly getting at lea
125 BMI727 : I got a few government loans, but most of it was savings, private scholarships, and loans. And, as I've stated repeatedly before, I have no problem w
126 tugger : That is the key point: "just now". Many years ago and many years from now... you weren't... and quite possibly won't be. "Just now" is now and we pay
127 Mir : You almost certainly have at some point in your life. -Mir
128 deltadawg : You say this as if 20-30% is not a lot. I worked many years investing in dividend paying companies in order to earn a significant quarterly income th
129 rfields5421 : Which might pay 40 to 60% of the total cost of your education. The rest of the money likely comes from the government in one form or another, and end
130 BMI727 : I understand what you're saying, but it's just wrong and doesn't justify me or anyone else paying more for the same service. That's a conservative es
131 seb146 : If you make $1000 a month and take home every penny of that $1000 a month and we all do the same (no taxes, as you want) how will that make the roads
132 BMI727 : I never said I wanted no taxes. Try again. What I want is for taxes to hit everybody in roughly equal proportion, or even better, put it under indivi
133 PhilBy : Accoding to the Collins dictionary (OK, not the worlds finest) English (not US) French and German all respect the mathematical terms Million = millio
134 seb146 : And how to pay for that? If you make $1000 a month and your basic health care cost is $1500 a month, are you okay with that? Death Panels are a part
135 BMI727 : You obviously don't understand how FairTax would work. People find ways to pay for all of that, except with health care which is distorted by the fac
136 PhilBy : So, are you claiming that rights are a biological function genetically encoded into DNA? All that we currently consider rights have only been such fo
137 RomeoBravo : As stated, my parents chose to have me, not myself. So they are responsible for me until i reach adulthood. I'm not obliged to owe them anything. But
138 BMI727 : Yes. People are all born with free will and decision making skills. Those things have been in existence far longer than government has, so why would
139 PhilBy : This possibly explains many things. Clearly we have a difference in definition. My understanding of the official meanings, put simplistically: Right
140 BMI727 : That's a poor definition. Society, or rather governments, cannot state what people can do because by default people can do anything. They may only st
141 PhilBy : I agree that it's a crude simplification, but it covers the essential difference between a right and a freedom. Now if the premise had been that we a
142 Mir : That's what the ideal progressive tax structure is: it hits everyone with about the same degree of pain. A flat tax hits the poor harder than the ric
143 PhilBy : Devils advocate would say: When some people earn enought to live comfortably in a small house and drive an average car (and some not even that) it wo
144 rfields5421 : In the United States, what we currently have is pretty close to that. Nice joke. Your health care is a government cost problem. Because when you get
145 RomeoBravo : It also makes product cheaper to purchase which increases people's purchasing power - making them better off overall. I honestly think some people wo
146 seb146 : People need to stop with this fallacy. We pay some of the lowest taxes in the industrialized world and jobs are still going overseas. As far as regul
147 RomeoBravo : US government spending is 38%, which means at some point, 38% of the economy needs to be taxed. That is pretty high. Additionally there are regulatio
148 jetblueguy22 : If I were to continue removing posts due to them being referenced the thread would be gutted. Therefor the thread is being archived. Any posts made af
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Is It Time For The Return Of The Station Wagon? posted Sat Feb 4 2006 20:55:31 by Boeing Nut
Is It Time For Non-aviation To Go Away? posted Wed Apr 3 2002 20:27:26 by Auswnfan
Conservatives:: Time For Their Own Party? posted Tue Nov 3 2009 00:47:56 by Ken777
Is It Time To Think Outside Of Aviation For Me? posted Mon Nov 24 2008 05:57:18 by KLM672
It's Time For Pitchers' Helmets In MLB? posted Tue May 7 2013 23:57:00 by aaron747
SaST: When Is It Time To Fill Your Gas Tank? posted Sat Aug 28 2010 18:57:37 by 2707200X
So Once Again It's Time For Me To.... posted Thu Jun 18 2009 18:09:58 by KAUST
Is It Time To Change Car Dealership Model? posted Wed Feb 18 2009 17:27:46 by NorthstarBoy
Is It Wrong For White Men To Date Asian Women? posted Mon Nov 19 2007 10:07:47 by PROSA
When Is It Time To Replace A Vehicle? posted Sun Jul 15 2007 00:17:20 by Jhooper