Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Putins Open Letter To America  
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3818 times:

He makes some very pertinent points.

I especially like this quote....

"It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal. "

What are your thoughts ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/op...-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11765 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3813 times:

Someone expressed an opinion and people are freaking out about it. So what? I don't get what the big deal is. He is saying what he sees from his point of view. People can be free to agree or disagree with him to any degree. I don't get the whole "I'm offended he says anything" stance. He is human. He has an opinion.


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't get the whole "I'm offended he says anything" stance. He is human. He has an opinion.

  

Quite. And, he also happens to lead a very powerful country, whether we like that or not, or whether we choose to admit that or not.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
He is human. He has an opinion.

He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country. That may be why people are upset about it. It's fair enough to speak about peace and tolerance, but if you as a President are responsible for a lot of violence (Chechnya, Syria), and at the same time repress any domestic debate, it may not exactly be appropriate to preach about it in the free media of other countries.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country. That may be why people are upset about it. It's fair enough to speak about peace and tolerance, but if you as a President are responsible for a lot of violence (Chechnya, Syria), and at the same time repress any domestic debate, it may not exactly be appropriate to preach about it in the free media of other countries.

Well said. Mr. Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

[Edited 2013-09-12 19:43:00]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country.

No leader is perfect or impervious to rebuke.

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
it may not exactly be appropriate to preach about it in the free media of other countries.

Maybe, but its a good way to get the message across. And If that message can potentially stop further conflict, then I'm all for it

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

No one is perfect. And Im sure as hell, there are many thing the US has done, that could be construed hypocrisy.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 5):
No one is perfect. And Im sure as hell, there are many thing the US has done, that could be construed hypocrisy.

As you say, not everyone is perfect. A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3692 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
but if you as a President are responsible for a lot of violence (Chechnya, Syria)

To be fair, while it might not have been pretty, Chechnya is more peaceful now than it has been probably at any time since the breakdown of the USSR. There are still problems of course, and much of the violence has been displaced to other neighbouring regions. However, the point still stands. I know we associate Chechnya with war and violence, but most of that wasn't sown during Putin's reign, and the fact is that the republic has developed considerably in recent years.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11765 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3682 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country

And there is debate based on facts in the United States? Or is the debate in the United States based on "facts" based on a slant and agenda?

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
That may be why people are upset about it.

People talk about nation building and spreading democracy around the world like we have in the United States but voting rights are being taken away and the sick just die and the hungry just die in the United States. How does that make the United States any better?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Mr. Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

Kinda like the United States? yep.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3312 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3680 times:

I have to say that I was speechless when I finished reading it. He makes some very good points and that last quote was really a good closing argument.

I realize that Putin is far from the perfect leader, but I think it's not a bad idea for the US to get a wake up call in general, even if from a leader that oppresses domestic opposition.

Let's not forget that at the end of the day, the US is also rather two-faced in many issues. We talk about being created equal but we all know that we don't all get equal treatment. We talk about freedoms like free speech or religion, and yet we see authorities infringing on them. We talk about the oppression of certain people yet turn a blind eye to Israel's treatment of Palestinians or the Saudi's persecution of those who do not adhere to Islamic principles.

So having a two-faced leader tell a two-faced nation how to behave, while ironic, is simply an eye opener.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

Well, I disagree.

I reckon that award falls a little closer to home (your home) than you might think.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
How does that make the United States any better?

Your right, It doesn't one bit, in fact it makes the world a whole lot more dangerous.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
So having a two-faced leader tell a two-faced nation how to behave, while ironic, is simply an eye opener.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 10):
I reckon that award falls a little closer to home (your home) than you might think.

Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years. Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc. I will look for all their good deeds tomorrow night. I know you guys must have plenty on your lists. They are so well known for their good deeds. Just ask Eastern Europe how well they made out under the old Dictators of old and the new one named Putin. Yes sir, the KGB was well known. It was not for being humanitarian. I suspect the new organization is not either. Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3645 times:

Putin's letter was very crafty. He really threw Obama under the bus. LOL. Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
As you say, not everyone is perfect. A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

LOL the US who started a false war against Iraq because of George W. Bush's nonsense about regime change. The reasons changed as everyone realized it was initially BS. The world woke up.

People like you blame Putin for playing Cold War politics, yet you do the same thing.

[Edited 2013-09-12 21:03:21]


oh boy!!!
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11765 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3628 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

Syria and Russia are allies. Putin has more control over Syria than the United States does.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
They are so well known for their good deeds.

They must be.....

Contributions to UN
Peacekeeping:

US$400 million

http://www.globalhumanitarianassistance.org/countryprofile/russia

Not an insignificant amount by any means.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.

Its little wonder the US has the reputation it currently has, with attitudes like that.   

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
LOL the US who started a false war against Iraq because of George W. Bush's nonsense about regime change.

Spot on.
That's one for the history books, and as for regime change, what regime are we looking at now. Complete turmoil....
Thanks America !



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts ?

Well, when he says:

We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos. The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.

I wonder if he'd apply the same logic to taking military action against Georgia. Actually, he didn't.

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country.

The joke I've seen going around the internets is that he's placed himself in mortal danger by becoming a Russian journalist.   

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
That may be why people are upset about it.

No need to get upset about it - if he wants to put his opinion out there, I'm happy to let him do it. And I'm just as happy to ignore it if I don't believe it has merit.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Putin's letter was very crafty. He really threw Obama under the bus. LOL. Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

Isn't it a good thing that Obama isn't in charge of the Syria situation? Isn't that what you want?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3580 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Syria and Russia are allies. Putin has more control over Syria than the United States does.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

I don't believe Putin has any control over al-Assad. Putin only offered Assad an exit. Assad doesn't want to give up his chemical weapons...only guess what...by giving them up...Assad is ensuring his staying in power. Why? There can't be any easy regime change in a country with chemical weapons that ensures their safety and non-proliferation.

Under the Russian plan, Assad has to remain in power to ensure the security of the chemical weapons while they are being destroyed. I bet on the destruction process taking in excess of 15-20 years. Putin wants to retain some influence in the Middle East re. Tartus et. al. So it is a win-win situation for Putin and Assad.

If Assad goes, the safety of the chemical weapons cannot be ensured, and it is game over.

Israel, the US, Russia, the Arab League, and everyone else have a lot to worry about if Assad falls.

Personally, I do not believe Basher al-Assad himself ordered these chemical strikes. It seems to me more the work of a rogue general, or as some reports suggest, his brother Maher.

This Arab Spring notion, of the entrenched leaders being ruthless dictators, and the rebels being innocent saviors has gotten old. These rebels are often worse than the dictators...many of whom the US and EU supported over decades. Please, the holier than thou, "we're doing this in the interest of human rights," nonsense got old a decade ago with Iraq.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3579 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal. "

Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
Isn't it a good thing that Obama isn't in charge of the Syria situation? Isn't that what you want?

Yes it is. And yes it is what I want. I have been a hardcore Obama supporter, he has disappointed me terribly with regards to the NSA, prosecuting whistle-blowers, WikiLeaks, and now Syria. I am still a moderate liberal and a registered Democrat...more of my opinion is in my post below yours.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia

Good example

I am one affected by this too EA CO AS, and I'm not particularly happy about it. As I said earlier, very little in life is perfect, especially people, Putin include.

Hopefully Russia will learn to grow, and realize that the current attitude/treatment of gays/lesbians is not the right path to go down. And I think, given time, they will eventually wake up to this.

But I do think he makes some good points about the Syria situation, in the letter regardless.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3557 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia

I get tired of this too. As long as the United States treated gays like 2nd class citizens, now because of this horrible Russian law, people come out of the woodwork to lambaste them. It's a little bit of cherry-picking richness.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 20):
It's a little bit of cherry-picking richness.

Yeah....   

Lots of countries appear to have issues with sexual equality, all over the world, including parts of Australian society.

Israel, Egypt one of Americas biggest donors recipients in the ME, grapples with this, as do many countries in Africa, yet the US is strangely silent over their plight?

If its so important to the US, then why wouldn't they make it a requirement of receiving ANY financial assistance ??

Hypocritical perhaps ???....

Just a bit !

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality

[Edited 2013-09-12 23:16:18]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3814 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
we must not forget that God created us equal.

'Unless you want to challenge my political dominion. Then God have mercy on you'...
  



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6957 posts, RR: 76
Reply 23, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

So I guess the nobel peace prize to Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat should be revoked too then if we go by your logic...   

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc.

There is a lot of Russian aid that goes without a nice massive stamp of the Russian flag on the bag, unlike the US. Humanitarian deeds for marketing is simply, PR... it's not charity. A lot of US humanitarian help also goes without the nice "FROM THE USA" symbology... but then, once we go to that level, there's no one to believe who gives out what.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
LOL the US who started a false war against Iraq because of George W. Bush's nonsense about regime change. The reasons changed as everyone realized it was initially BS. The world woke up.

The US needs to learn that at times, the US is used by the US' own enemies to make the US overthrow a regime, and then use the US' preach of democracy to install an anti-US faction... These guys no longer have to take airplanes and fly into buildings in the US, all they need to do is fabricate attacks or go on a social media campaign to make a regime look bad, get the mainstream media along, and before you know it, millions of Americans are duped, and these guys end up not only ending up with US attention, but receiving US help to get into power... and then... one day, the US gets a massive wake up call... (eg: Egypt, Libya, etc)... and then the reaction, plays into these guys... by then it's so much easier to play the "US is occupying" or "US is supporting tyrannical regimes" or "US don't like Middle Eastern democracy" card...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
If Assad goes, the safety of the chemical weapons cannot be ensured, and it is game over.

Israel, the US, Russia, the Arab League, and everyone else have a lot to worry about if Assad falls.

Personally, I do not believe Basher al-Assad himself ordered these chemical strikes. It seems to me more the work of a rogue general, or as some reports suggest, his brother Maher.

Isn't it perfect timing for Assad's rivals within his regime to start going 'rather wild' ?
I seriously think if the US takes action, then the US has been successfully duped.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
This Arab Spring notion, of the entrenched leaders being ruthless dictators, and the rebels being innocent saviors has gotten old. These rebels are often worse than the dictators...many of whom the US and EU supported over decades. Please, the holier than thou, "we're doing this in the interest of human rights," nonsense got old a decade ago with Iraq.

LOL! Nicely put.
Just look at Egypt... 12 years ago this date, who would have thought that the US would endorse the Muslim brotherhood? Iraq aside, the US got duped big time with Egypt this time... the "enemy" has gotten a lot smarter in the last 12 years... I guess the US has forgotten learnt from the Tet offensive... and the numerous ways the media spin can turn...

If the US gets duped with Syria, then the enemy have won!
I see this open letter as a reminder to the US... "remember, the world depends on us understanding what needs to be done in our spheres of influence..."



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4121 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3447 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Well said. Mr. Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

He may be the epitome of hypocrisy, but when we move to deny someone the right to express their opinion on a technicality, it doesn't say much for our supposed faith in free speech.

Either ignore him or address his criticism. Attacking him personally will win you no argument, and will certainly do nothing to enhance the freedom agenda you claim for the US.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3526 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years. Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc. I will look for all their good deeds tomorrow night. I know you guys must have plenty on your lists. They are so well known for their good deeds. Just ask Eastern Europe how well they made out under the old Dictators of old and the new one named Putin. Yes sir, the KGB was well known. It was not for being humanitarian. I suspect the new organization is not either. Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.

You know, the reason why US government has been and still is the number one hypocrite on this planet is all the BS about "defending freedom and democracy" when in fact you are just fighting against people who disagree with your political and/or economic views.

During the cold war you supported countless of right wing dictatorships and guerrilla groups fighting against legitimate democratic governments, dictatorships and groups that massacred loads of civilians. As long as the dictator or a guerrilla group was pro US and anti Soviet Union it didn't matter how much bad they did. Many countries in Latin America are still full of problems thanks to corrupt right wing dictatorships your government supported.

And yet at the same time you portrayed yourself as a defender of freedom, heh.

Since war on terror started US government has now played a role as a force that protects world from terrorism (which your own actions in the Middle East largely fueled anyway when it comes to terrorism against west).

Still even today United States keeps protecting a terrorist responsible for bombing down Cuban civilian airliner, Cubana flight 455.. Luis Posada Carriles still lives as a free man in Miami although it's perfectly well known he's responsible for that bombing and several other smaller terrorist attacks.

Apparently terrorism is okay as long as it's towards civilians from a country you don't like.

Yeah, it's clear who's the biggest hypocrite here.

[Edited 2013-09-13 01:29:31]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinePhilBy From France, joined Aug 2013, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

I would challenge that there was anything hypocritical about the KGB. They didn't exactly deny what they were all about.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Yes sir, the KGB was well known.

Indeed.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 24):
He may be the epitome of hypocrisy, but when we move to deny someone the right to express their opinion on a technicality, it doesn't say much for our supposed faith in free speech.

Either ignore him or address his criticism. Attacking him personally will win you no argument, and will certainly do nothing to enhance the freedom agenda you claim for the US.

Agreed. Once you go ad hominem you've lost the argument.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
You know, the reason why US government has been and still is the number one hypocrite on this planet is all the BS about "defending freedom and democracy" when in fact you are just fighting against people who disagree with your political and/or economic views.

During the cold war you supported countless of right wing dictatorships and guerrilla groups fighting against legitimate democratic governments, dictatorships and groups that massacred loads of civilians. As long as the dictator or a guerrilla group was pro US and anti Soviet Union it didn't matter how much bad they did. Many countries in Latin America are still full of problems thanks to corrupt right wing dictatorships your government supported.

And yet at the same time you portrayed yourself as a defender of freedom, heh.

Since war on terror started US government has now played a role as a force that protects world from terrorism (which your own actions in the Middle East largely fueled anyway when it comes to terrorism against west).

Still even today United States keeps protecting a terrorist responsible for bombing down Cuban civilian airliner, Cubana flight 455.. Luis Posada Carriles still lives as a free man in Miami although it's perfectly well known he's responsible for that bombing and several other smaller terrorist attacks.

Apparently terrorism is okay as long as it's towards civilians from a country you don't like.

Yeah, it's clear who's the biggest hypocrite here.

This is a pretty accurate argument, but I find its tone a bit high handed when you consider the open question of whether a Finnish government would have behaved any differently if they were in the US government's shoes. Finland collaborated with the Third Reich when they perceived no better choice...ironically due to the same threat that the US faced (the USSR). Fear makes people do a lot of crazy things. The bigger you are the bigger the crazy.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12565 posts, RR: 35
Reply 28, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3451 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Putin's letter was very crafty. He really threw Obama under the bus. LOL. Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

I think Pellegrine has hit the nail on the head here; what has happened has been a master class in Machiavellian politics; he set a very clever trap; Kerry walked right into it and that was it; there is no longer a threat of military action over Syria; I have no doubt that Assad was strongly advised by the Russians to sign up to the chemical weapons treaty and get rid the stockpile he has. He's safe now; the Russians want Assad to stay; they won. No one can say that the Americans looked anything other than inept and weak - principled, yes, but still inept. They Russians don't give a fiddler's curse about chemical weapons; they are focused on a strategy and nothing will get in the way of that and given the example of Iraq, a mad psychotic dictator is better than a rag tag bunch of hardline terrorists engaged in civil war.

Lesson: principles don't really work in international politics/diplomacy. I'm not saying Obama was wrong in what he said and the line he took; he was very right. Unfortunately, he was up against an opponent who had no interest in this kind of nonsense, saw his opponent was fatally exposed and cut the feet from under him.

There's a reason why the world's top chess players are Russian ...


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 29, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 28):
I think Pellegrine has hit the nail on the head here; what has happened has been a master class in Machiavellian politics; he set a very clever trap; Kerry walked right into it and that was it; there is no longer a threat of military action over Syria; I have no doubt that Assad was strongly advised by the Russians to sign up to the chemical weapons treaty and get rid the stockpile he has. He's safe now; the Russians want Assad to stay; they won. No one can say that the Americans looked anything other than inept and weak - principled, yes, but still inept. They Russians don't give a fiddler's curse about chemical weapons; they are focused on a strategy and nothing will get in the way of that and given the example of Iraq, a mad psychotic dictator is better than a rag tag bunch of hardline terrorists engaged in civil war.

Lesson: principles don't really work in international politics/diplomacy. I'm not saying Obama was wrong in what he said and the line he took; he was very right. Unfortunately, he was up against an opponent who had no interest in this kind of nonsense, saw his opponent was fatally exposed and cut the feet from under him.

There's a reason why the world's top chess players are Russian ...

Indeed, and I think he (the President) also got set up by his political opponents who goaded him into proclamations of action and then did not support him when he asked the legislature for a mandate to act. For domestic reasons that have nothing to do with Syria.

I think the US is long overdue to make the statement that people should just expect us to do what the Russians, Chinese and every other major power on earth have done...what helps us the most. In reality that is what we have been doing, but ineptly due to the self-imposed baggage of trying to dress it up as something nobler than that.


User currently offlinegatorman96 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3430 times:

Putin is one hell of a politician. He has let the Obama administration "run the show" on the Syria situation, but he has always been in control. The most recent "chemical weapons to international ownership" move was nothing short of brilliant. Not only did it delay US military action, but it allowed Assad to disperse his chem weapons throughout the country to protect them from missile attacks.

I don't typically rip on any administration or world leader because it is a near impossible job (and all leaders of guilty of some type of atrocity), but the OA looks ridiculously foolish in this situation. From their redline comment, to no one, even our closest ally, agreeing to military intervention, to Putin's latest moves, the Obama admin has been completely schooled...



Cha brro
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 31, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):

Who have we freed from tyranny in the last 100 years? Well...for start, lets say the whole world with our participation in World War 2, or atleast all of Europe.

I find it pathetic how many people and people on this forum immediately jump to highly uneducated shortsighted cold war era statements about Russia.

It does show a glimmer of hope that more and more people worldwide are actually taking a balanced view on international affairs and not blindly believing what is said by others...
As for the others - what does it matter if he is the President of the Russian Federation? Did you take the time to read his words? Or do you want to blindly believe people like John McCain without analysing any of the actuall information? Or have you found WMD's in Iraq without anyone's knowledge?

In Russia we have uneducated individuals laughing about "those Americans are stuipid", in America you have these people apparently...
But then again, reading President Putin's statement, it is clearly aimed towards more educated Americans that must already be leaning against the idea of military intervention in Syria. I am kind of sure that those screaming about him being a KGB agent and the likes have no clue where Mali is on a map or they probably don't even know what the League of Nations was or what it did either...

[Edited 2013-09-13 17:07:41]


I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 32, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3229 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.



Its little wonder the US has the reputation it currently has, with attitudes like that.

Oh my! Australia, a country I have always admired, what has happened? Australia, the land of tough hard drinking men, the land of hard fighting soldiers who are our Allies, who fought by our side so many times in war. I wonder if many Australians feel that Russia is now the new leader of the Free world, defender of human rights, Democratic principles, provider of aid to the downtrodden. Defender of free speech, religious freedom, open government, equality for all. I did not think that I misspoke, nor made any false claims when I said, we will keep you free, we always have. We spend billions doing so. We are friends to most Australians, not all it seems, but I claim most of them.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 33, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

I happen to agree with a lot he says. He of course has his own agenda though, and it's a pretty questionable character himself.

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 34, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3204 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Who have we freed from tyranny in the last 100 years? Well...for start, lets say the whole world with our participation in World War 2, or atleast all of Europe.

A big claim there, the whole world. Not hardly, a contributor for sure, after the failure of the pact with Hitler forced the issue. I might remind some of the enslavement of Eastern Europe after the war. I might remind some of the massacre of the Polish Officers at Katyn Forest 14 K dead. Finland. I might remind some of the Berlin Wall, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and the Gulag, Stalin, the KGB and the shot behind the ear. Mass burials. Beria, and many more. Lest I forget, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Such a sterling record for some to admire.

We now have that humanitarian Putin, not really ex-KGB. It is alive and well by another name. We now have the old switcheroo to keep him in power. We now have a hero riding shirtless, hunting, flying, fishing, riding motorcycles at night, karate. Seems like old times in the Soviet Union, which was all an illusion.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 35, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 33):
I happen to agree with a lot he says. He of course has his own agenda though, and it's a pretty questionable character himself.

As we all do, and I certainly do not think he qualifies to preach to us. One has to wonder what did it take to become head of the KGB? I think he is a big actor.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 36, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
You know, the reason why US government has been and still is the number one hypocrite on this planet is all the BS about "defending freedom and democracy" when in fact you are just fighting against people who disagree with your political and/or economic views



We would all like to be loved, but that is impossible as we can see, the youngers should all read more history to see who has been their real friends in the past, and now. Alas, it seems that some do not know history, or understand what countries have killed their fellow countrymen, and under what conditions. In this matter, the US in above reproach, when it comes to Europe, or even Finland. Not so for our friend Putin and his predecessors.

[Edited 2013-09-13 18:30:49]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13170 posts, RR: 15
Reply 37, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Putin has plenty of motivation to do a deal.
He (like the USA and even Israel) would rather have the Assad family in control rather than a potentially anti-western and Russian, radical Islamic leadership or a fractured, family states. A radical Islamic state would likely hurt Israel but more importantly for Russia, could lead to more support of Islamic anti-Russian groups in the areas of the Russian Federation adjacent to Syria.
He gets to look like the 'good guy' as well as strengthen his position in the world and over Pres. Obama.
It make him look like a 'statesman' to most of the world, especially with the Winter Olympics coming soon.
He keeps a client for arms, various goods, closer involvement with their small oil and natural gas revenues for Russia vs. the USA and EC countries. It brings back and expands Russia's 'sphere of influence' and power in the world lost in the collapse of the USSR.
It offsets his crackdown on dissent and on GLTB's and it's protests from other countries.
It also helps give the USA an out of any military action.

Of course, Putin's ideas have ticked off the Left and Right here in the USA, as both hate Putin for their reasons. As much as I despise him, I would accept this proposed deal as it prevent killing more innocents and more hate toward the USA and Israel.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 38, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Did you take the time to read his words? Or do you want to blindly believe people like John McCain without analysing

When one has been shot down, imprisoned and tortured for seven years at the hands of the agents of the then USSR, he has a unique perspective that we do not. He is going to write an article for Pravda in response to Putin. He may not have much love for his captors and their Allies.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
Seems like old times in the Soviet Union, which was all an illusion.

Oh, its no illusion.

If it was, do you really think the US would even bother to respond ?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years. Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc.

Well here it is again for you .......

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
http://www.globalhumanitarianassistance.org/countryprofile/russia


[Edited 2013-09-13 19:38:45]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 40, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 39):
Oh, its no illusion.

I did say the USSR, it was most certainly an illusion, held together by brute force, the secret police, and ruthlessness. the USSR is no more, destroyed by those same illusions. Cold War, West won, freedom is alive and well here. We now have the Russian Federation, trying to make a comeback. So far, does not look good for the people, not much freedom, not much democracy, same old KGB, New name, suppressed freedom of speech, press, recycled leaders, old guard still there. Illusion is alive and well. An actor for a leader.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 41, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3131 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia
Good example

I am one affected by this too EA CO AS, and I'm not particularly happy about it. As I said earlier, very little in life is perfect, especially people, Putin include.

Hopefully Russia will learn to grow, and realize that the current attitude/treatment of gays/lesbians is not the right path to go down. And I think, given time, they will eventually wake up to this.

I'm not affected by it, however I strongly dislike hypocrites and for Putin to take this holier-than-thou attitude and espousing equality while simultaneously cracking down on a percentage of his own people based on their sexuality and/or gender identity is appalling.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11765 posts, RR: 15
Reply 42, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

First you say:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
if he wants to put his opinion out there, I'm happy to let him do it

Then you say:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I'm just as happy to ignore it if I don't believe it has merit.

Make up your mind. Can he have an opinion or not?

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
Putin wants to retain some influence in the Middle East re. Tartus et. al. So it is a win-win situation for Putin and Assad.

And for United States and Israel. Let's not forget that if United States had bombed key targets in Syria, Assad would have struck Israel.

Now, can gas prices go back down? Oh, wait... they can't. And oil companies showing record profits just happens to be a coincidence.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3114 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I did say the USSR, it was most certainly an illusion, held together by brute force, the secret police, and ruthlessness.

You asked for a list

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
He is going to write an article for Pravda in response to Putin.

Well, that will be balanced and fair.......

McCain is a warmonger, one who falls asleep at congressional hearings, as his peers talk about how they will best kill Syrians.

Onya Johnny.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
I'm not affected by it, however I strongly dislike hypocrites

Can you please tell me, one world leader, anywhere, who has NOT been hypocritical at some point in time.

Good read below...

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...also-hypocrisy-versus-honesty.html

[Edited 2013-09-13 20:42:01]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 44, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 43):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):He is going to write an article for Pravda in response to Putin.
Well, that will be balanced and fair.......

Freedom of the press will be alive and well for a little while, and that is a good thing in Russia and elsewhere.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11765 posts, RR: 15
Reply 45, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
Freedom of the press will be alive and well for a little while, and that is a good thing in Russia and elsewhere.

Is McCain really the best person to write a response? The leader of Russia writes his opinion in NYT and the best United States can do is McCain? I have some respect for McCain but, really, McCain?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 46, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
Make up your mind. Can he have an opinion or not?

Where did I say he couldn't have an opinion?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBraybuddy From India, joined Aug 2004, 5794 posts, RR: 32
Reply 47, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3060 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts ?

A very well-crafted PR piece, nothing more.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 28):
what has happened has been a master class in Machiavellian politics; he set a very clever trap; Kerry walked right into it

Totally agree. Putin has added to the number of hoops western democracies tend to jump through. He himself operates a minimal-hoop policy, while Assad doesn't require any at all. He's taking the West for fools.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 48, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3062 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):

Yeah, thats called war. May I remind you that some of his countrymen simply massacered North Vietnamese and McCain was afterall bombing their country. In a state of war. What would you have liked them to do when they shot him down? Put him in a 5 star hotel? He recieved better treatment than many North Vietnamese in American hands. He should send a postcard or something.
So he has some bad blood with Russia based on that...allright. But why you would elect such a lunatic into Senate is beyond me. Not saying we are any better, we have Vladimir Zhirinovsky who is on the same level of crazy, but our lunatic seems to want to bomb other nations for PR reasons. Yours actually lobbies hard to have that happen.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 49, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

I think some people are being a bit hard on Putin. In my view he has done Obama an enormous favour by getting the President off the hook with regard to the absurd 'short sharp raid' he foolishly proposed. And Putin has 'followed up' by joining the US in setting up negotiations:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24089510



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3018 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 36):
We would all like to be loved, but that is impossible as we can see, the youngers should all read more history to see who has been their real friends in the past, and now. Alas, it seems that some do not know history, or understand what countries have killed their fellow countrymen, and under what conditions. In this matter, the US in above reproach, when it comes to Europe, or even Finland. Not so for our friend Putin and his predecessors.

When we fought with the Soviets United States was actually aiding them with supplies to help them fight against Germans, obviously some of those supplies ended up being used against us too. After the war and death of Stalin over the time we actually developed quite good relations to the Soviet Union.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I did say the USSR, it was most certainly an illusion, held together by brute force, the secret police, and ruthlessness. the USSR is no more, destroyed by those same illusions. Cold War, West won, freedom is alive and well here.

Freedom is dying in western world, western governments, especially the US one are becoming more and more like those of Eastern Europe in soviet times, spying on their own citizen all the time, brainwashing their people through media by spreading misinformation.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5741 posts, RR: 19
Reply 51, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Who have we freed from tyranny in the last 100 years? Well...for start, lets say the whole world with our participation in World War 2, or atleast all of Europe.

LOL! You should read up a little bit what the so called "liberation" was really all about ... but that means reading from other books than those they gave you at the last Nashi camp.


User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 52, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2999 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 37):
A radical Islamic state would likely hurt Israel but more importantly for Russia, could lead to more support of Islamic anti-Russian groups in the areas of the Russian Federation adjacent to Syria.

Adjacent?? The closest parts of Russia to Syria are still a few countries away, but I guess the point is still relevant. It's not exactly right on the doorstep though.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 35):
As we all do, and I certainly do not think he qualifies to preach to us. One has to wonder what did it take to become head of the KGB? I think he is a big actor.

Well, if he's just a big actor then he's done astonishingly well to keep control for as long as he has. Like him or not, there's clearly more to him than just words.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
Putin, not really ex-KGB. It is alive and well by another name.

Pretty much all countries have security services, both internal and external.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 51):
but that means reading from other books than those they gave you at the last Nashi camp.

There's no need for that. Just because someone sees things differently from you, doesn't mean that they're automatically aligned with ultra-racist, nationalist hardliners.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1698 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (1 year 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2959 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years.

I'm always amused to read people who are ignorant of their own history such as yourself. The US were no better than the USSR when it came to messing with other countries, and the history of Central and South America is there for all to see no matter how much people like you like to deny it.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2865 times:

Deleted

Deleted

Deleted

[Edited 2013-09-14 15:19:49]

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 55, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2831 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 52):
Well, if he's just a big actor then he's done astonishingly well to keep control for as long as he has. Like him or not, there's clearly more to him than just words.

He has done well, no question, so has every other Dictator in history, for a while. There is more to him than just words, and that is what got him the top post in the KGB. I asked earlier, what is the criteria for getting that job. We all know what it was in the not too distant past.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 52):
Pretty much all countries have security services, both internal and external.

Of course they do, but not all have the reputation for mystery, mayhem and murder the KGB has internally and externally.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 56, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

[quote=Acheron,reply=53]I'm always amused to read people who are ignorant of their own history such as yourself. The US were no better than the USSR when it came to messing with other countries, and the history of Central and South America is there for all to see no matter how much people like you like to deny it.[/quote



We have a free press here, freedom of speech, trust me, your accusations of myself not knowing our history is ridiculous and somewhat hysterical. We know all about our meddling in other countries affairs, some of which I supported, and some of which I did not, along with many millions more who knew, or still know. Look at any country, try reading your own countries history, and see what has always happened, and will continue to happen. Both world wars were not started over here my friend, they started over there.


The casualty count from our side pales in comparison to the count from your side of the pond. We are mere children in the death count business, even with the use of the Atom Bomb, of course which was used to end a war, not started by us. Let us see now, how many did Stalin kill of his own? It makes our Civil War look like child's play in comparison.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7714 posts, RR: 21
Reply 57, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 55):
Of course they do, but not all have the reputation for mystery, mayhem and murder the KGB has internally and externally.

Sure, but then many do - like the CIA for example. I get what you're saying, but that 'reputation' is largely one of the past.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 58, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2816 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 57):
Sure, but then many do - like the CIA for example. I get what you're saying, but that 'reputation' is largely one of the past.

How can one tell, if it is all in the past? Do you think Putin does not have blood on his hands, even today with what is going on in Russia? I am not trying to put all the blame on Putin, I just do not like the people who agree with people like Putin, acting like he is a reformer, a wise man, a diplomat, a Patriot.

The system he represents is repugnant to me. With all its failures, give me Democracy, freedom of the press, representative government, the vote by which we can change government, every time. The CIA is not innocent for sure, nor is our government at times. We can change the government, to change its leaders. Putin has sidestepped that. He does not want to give up power, and we all know what that is called if successful. a Dictatorship.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 59, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):

Sorry you think that. In reality (not on paper) you have less freedoms than I. But if thinking otherwise makes you feel better, then let it be.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 60, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 59):
Sorry you think that. In reality (not on paper) you have less freedoms than I. But if thinking otherwise makes you feel better, then let it be.

If you support your country, I salute you. I know I support mine. All I will say in defense of our system is that we do not fear our government. When we vote someone out, they are out, until next they run. We have term limits for our President. Two terms, eight years. We do not topple our governments, except in elections.

We do not fear saying things in the press. We can make fun of our government officials in public, without retaliation. We do not have a press controlled by the government. We are nuts, irreverent, corrupt, somewhat lawless, have a mighty military, pay a high price for freedom, but we are free from fear of our own government. We are a nation of laws, many of them. We still have millions waiting to get in here.

[Edited 2013-09-14 19:02:22]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 61, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):

You know what? I salute you too.
It just seems that we can't understand each other's positon and I respect that.
I do not fear my government. I voted for Vladimir Putin last year and I don't see anyone I know bowing down in fear either.
We are just on two different sides I guess.
You see your government's position as the correct course of action and I see that the course of action taken by my government as the correct one. We both have access to information other than what we are shown on our TV's and news sources (for you by reading Russia Today or reading Fox News for me, for example) and we have come to different conclusions.
I would enjoy having a debate with you over a beer some day in person.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 62, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2758 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 61):
I would enjoy having a debate with you over a beer some day in person.

I agree, we are different politically, but we are fellow travelers on this earth. I hope for the best for the Russian People and country as well as our own here. I try to remember that we are all human and have families, and hopes for them. You should vote for those who you think will do right for your family and friends and country. Maybe you did. I hope so for all of us.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 63, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2719 times:

The problem with this debate, IMO, is there really isn't any country, political party, or politician that is "clean." Anyone making a criticism can just be called a hypocrite because their political party, country, or past view creates a double standard.

I do like seeing a Russian perspective from this board. For all I know, you guys could be totally wrong, but it at least gives another viewpoint to consider. Just listening to the media over here, not gonna lie, you Russians are pretty shady, but honestly, I'm sure there is a bit of truth in it but also a lot of misunderstanding and flat out bias.

Hope to see some cooperation in the future. Maybe Putin would have told the West to blow smoke, but perhaps if we came to Putin and respected him and not treat him like a shady criminal and politely asked them to police Assad more, maybe he would have done so. I think it would have boosted his ego coming to him and acknowledging the Russian-Syria relationship instead of trying to just bypass him



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1698 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 56):
We have a free press here, freedom of speech, trust me, your accusations of myself not knowing our history is ridiculous and somewhat hysterical. We know all about our meddling in other countries affairs, some of which I supported, and some of which I did not, along with many millions more who knew, or still know. Look at any country, try reading your own countries history, and see what has always happened, and will continue to happen. Both world wars were not started over here my friend, they started over there.


The casualty count from our side pales in comparison to the count from your side of the pond. We are mere children in the death count business, even with the use of the Atom Bomb, of course which was used to end a war, not started by us. Let us see now, how many did Stalin kill of his own? It makes our Civil War look like child's play in comparison.

I see you are part of the "America! Fuck yeah!" group of delued people. You see, is not a matter of bodycounts but if you want numbers, the US has been involved in the death of around +10.000.000 people since the end of WW2, but the thing is that unlike the US, Russia doesn't go all over the world trying to pontificate other countries about "democracy" or "human rights" while supporting dictatorships, murderers and assorted maniacs in other places or sporting places like GITMO or Abu Ghraib.

Everybody knows Russia can be a ruthless country and they don't try to disguise it.

Thats what makes the US Government quite a bigger hypocrite than Mr Putin here. Putin barely tries to paint himself as a nice guy, heck, everybody is quite well aware he must be quite a bastard and he doesn't make any attempt at hiding that. Unlike the Nobel Peace guy in the Oval Office.

From a geopolitical point of view, his letter is quite spot on. Trying to see it from any other point of view or trying to dismiss it, is just being stupid and dense for the sake of it since Putin seems to be quite a pragmatic(and quite machiavellian) guy, not too bothered by large scale ideological idiocy.

Thats why I have slightly more respect for Putin than for the US Government: they are jerks, they can fuck you up if you fuck up with them but at least they don't try to whitewash it with speeches of democracy, freedom and other bullshit except to mock the US.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
but we are free from fear of our own government.

No wonder the NSA is pretty much raping the lot of you.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):
the vote by which we can change government, every time.

Because there is so much difference between the Repubs and the Democrats noawadays, lol.

Like I said, you are delusional. Good luck


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 65, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

This journalist, (not known for being a cheerleader for the US), neatly summarises that letter;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...adimir-putin-americans-syria-means


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6471 posts, RR: 32
Reply 66, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2561 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
Lest I forget, the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Which the US brought it upon themselves by placing those missiles in Turkey. Just thought I would refresh your memory.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 55):
Of course they do, but not all have the reputation for mystery, mayhem and murder the KGB has internally and externally.

Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973 might have a different perspective on that. I won´t provide more concrete examples because it´s been done repeatedly, but you may wish to look into them.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 67, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 66):
Which the US brought it upon themselves by placing those missiles in Turkey. Just thought I would refresh your memory.

So did the USSR, with all their bluster about 'turning out rockets like sausages'.
With long range ones able to hit the US, it was BS - like just about everything the USSR ever said.

This spooked the US until the first generation of spy satellites, by then to counter the threat that the Soviet BS had indicated, those Jupiter Missiles were there in Turkey.
But by the time of the crisis in Cuba, they had already been slated for retirement.

So the USSR had to compensate for their BS being exposed, they were not short of medium range missiles hence the installation on Cuba.

So while in 1962 the US had a 17 to 1 advantage in weapons that could hit the USSR compared to the Soviet's ability to hit the US, the driving force behind getting them out of Cuba was their very short flight time to target as well as the very idea of them putting nukes in the Western hemisphere.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6471 posts, RR: 32
Reply 68, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2493 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting GDB (Reply 67):
the Soviet BS had indicated, those Jupiter Missiles were there in Turkey.
Quoting GDB (Reply 67):
But by the time of the crisis in Cuba, they had already been slated for retirement.

So? Thanks for helping me make my point.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2748 posts, RR: 8
Reply 69, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
All I will say in defense of our system is that we do not fear our government.

We do not fear our government? Who is we?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
We do not topple our governments, except in elections.

Which is why we have the crap running our country that we have now.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
We do not fear saying things in the press

Yes we do. Everything has to be cleared by the PC police. And try being a employee of the government and say what you want about it.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
We can make fun of our government officials in public, without retaliation

No because if it is anti Obama then you are painted a racist.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
We do not have a press controlled by the government.

Wow this one is really a whopper. Our press and governmetn are in the same bed together.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
but we are free from fear of our own government

Really. Wait till the sick the NSA and IRS on you.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 60):
We are a nation of laws,

We stopped being that a long time ago. Our constitution has been trampled over and is used by the Politicos in DC ro wipe their ass with.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):
but the thing is that unlike the US, Russia doesn't go all over the world trying to pontificate other countries about "democracy" or "human rights" while supporting dictatorships, murderers and assorted maniacs in other places

Do not think that I have ever agreed with you before. Cheers.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):
Everybody knows Russia can be a ruthless country and they don't try to disguise it

Exactly. I atually admire them for still protecting and loving their country.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):
From a geopolitical point of view, his letter is quite spot on

Yes it is.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):
Thats why I have slightly more respect for Putin than for the US Government:

I have a little respect for him and zero for ours including the Republicans.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 70, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2427 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 68):
So? Thanks for helping me make my point.

So?
It wasn't only, as you seemed to indicate, a case of the US bringing the Cuba crisis 'on themselves'.
While the Soviets felt threatened by the (obselete) US missiles in Turkey, they were stationed in a NATO member country so therefore none of the USSR's business.
They in turn had MRBM's in East Germany.

Cuba was not part of the Warsaw Pact, was on another continent.

Remember too, the 1961 Berlin crisis was fresh in the memories of the JFK administration, another attempt to subjugate West Berlin by them, which when it became clear NATO would not bend under their will, the USSR proxy government in East Berlin put up that wall. To keep people in their paradise on pain of death by marksman or minefield.

While the US did many questionable to bad things during the Cold War, moral relativism between the US/NATO and the USSR/Warsaw Pact does not stand up so well when you consider how France could throw US forces out of it's territory in 1966, become largely disengaged from NATO, with no retaliation, of any kind at all, from the US.
(When the French President called LBJ and told him to get his forces out, LBJ replied 'including the ones buried there?')
Now compare with Hungary 1956, the 'Prague Spring' in 1968 and the threats to go into Poland in 1981.

Though it helped that France in 1966 was really all about President CDG's rampant Anglophobia than France as a whole.
Something that caused Churchill all manner of grief 20 years before.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 71, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 61):
I would enjoy havin
[quote=Acheron,reply=64]No wonder the NSA is pretty much raping the lot of you.

Dream on.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):the vote by which we can change government, every time.
Because there is so much difference between the Repubs and the Democrats noawadays, lol.

American Politics, we thrive on it. Fook around too much with us, and you will see why we have been free for so long, and have saved so many millions from themselves and Tyranny. Count them bodies, and they were alive later, and still are. We leave our enemies alive after the conflict. We have done alright with our system.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):
Like I said, you are delusional. Good luck

I and about 300 million, and many more trying to come in.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 72, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 69):
Which is why we have the crap running our country that we have now.

I have to say, that is amusing and sad at the same time. Your guy lost, deal with it. Obama was elected fairly and by popular vote. I am surprised the election was not called rigged by you desperate people who cannot stand defeat. Who is that big mouth from Kentuck? Mitch somebody? He said something, he failed. I just read the rest of your reply  yuck 

[Edited 2013-09-15 18:54:00]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 73, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 70):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 68):So? Thanks for helping me make my point.
So?
It wasn't only, as you seemed to indicate, a case of the US bringing the Cuba crisis 'on themselves'.
While the Soviets felt threatened by the (obselete) US missiles in Turkey, they were stationed in a NATO member country so therefore none of the USSR's business.
They in turn had MRBM's in East Germany.

Cuba was not part of the Warsaw Pact, was on another continent.

Remember too, the 1961 Berlin crisis was fresh in the memories of the JFK administration, another attempt to subjugate West Berlin by them, which when it became clear NATO would not bend under their will, the USSR proxy government in East Berlin put up that wall. To keep people in their paradise on pain of death by marksman or minefield.

While the US did many questionable to bad things during the Cold War, moral relativism between the US/NATO and the USSR/Warsaw Pact does not stand up so well when you consider how France could throw US forces out of it's territory in 1966, become largely disengaged from NATO, with no retaliation, of any kind at all, from the US.
(When the French President called LBJ and told him to get his forces out, LBJ replied 'including the ones buried there?')
Now compare with Hungary 1956, the 'Prague Spring' in 1968 and the threats to go into Poland in 1981.

Though it helped that France in 1966 was really all about President CDG's rampant Anglophobia than France as a whole.
Something that caused Churchill all manner of grief 20 years before.

I must commend you on a truthful, factual on the money post. Rarely have I seen a better one. Two thumbs up, make it three.         



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

I thought it was well written but when I read it, I wasn't really focused on who it came from. I found it odd that every American afterward seemed very focused on every contradictory act Putin had done himself. We rarely call our politicians out on that kind of hypocrisy. Even Jim Cramer on MadMoney, yes I watch that, said "Putin should go back to killing his own people". When you have a Harvard educated Americans thinking like that and basically ignoring what Putin was saying, it makes it hard to reform anything domestically or partner with them internationally.

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 75, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 69):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 64):From a geopolitical point of view, his letter is quite spot on
Yes it is.

I saw your agreement, I re-read the letter from Putin, you should be ashamed of yourself. Agreeing with Putin is bad enough, but to agree with Putin simply because of your politics, and your intense dis-like of our President is almost beyond the pale.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 76, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 66):
Salvador Allende in Chile in 1973 might have a different perspective on that. I won´t provide more concrete examples because it´s been done repeatedly, but you may wish to look into them.

He shot himself during the uprising. I would assume he did not want to go on trial. Another casualty of the Cold War, of which there were many. The Communists were trying to establish another beachhead in Chile, some, including me, did not like it. The US did not like it as a whole either. Blame Allende and Russia, Cuba, the Communist Party. Blame the Army who overthrew him.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 76):
He shot himself during the uprising. I would assume he did not want to go on trial. Another casualty of the Cold War, of which there were many. The Communists were trying to establish another beachhead in Chile, some, including me, did not like it. The US did not like it as a whole either. Blame Allende and Russia, Cuba, the Communist Party. Blame the Army who overthrew him.

No, blame United States for supporting the illegal military coup and a dictatorship that killed thousands of its own people.

Had United States not intervened and supported many right wing savage groups around Latin America there's a possibility that many more of them could actually be respectable well developed countries today, such as Cuba where everyone has access to high quality education and healthcare while in Haiti half of the people can't even read.

The reality is you Americans weren't any better than your Soviet enemies. At least nowadays Russia doesn't even portray itself as a defender of freedom and democracy like your hypocritical government still does when it attacks someone.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineBrick From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1589 posts, RR: 7
Reply 78, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2321 times:

You all know that Putin didn't write this letter, right?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/putinletter.asp



A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 79, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 77):
No, blame United States for supporting the illegal military coup and a dictatorship that killed thousands of its own people.

Had United States not intervened and supported many right wing savage groups around Latin America there's a possibility that many more of them could actually be respectable well developed countries today, such as Cuba where everyone has access to high quality education and healthcare while in Haiti half of the people can't even read.

The reality is you Americans weren't any better than your Soviet enemies. At least nowadays Russia doesn't even portray itself as a defender of freedom and democracy like your hypocritical government still does when it attacks someone.

Since you ignored it the last time I posted it, I will say this again:

"This is a pretty accurate argument, but I find its tone a bit high handed when you consider the open question of whether a Finnish government would have behaved any differently if they were in the US government's shoes. Finland collaborated with the Third Reich when they perceived no better choice...ironically due to the same threat that the US faced (the USSR). Fear makes people do a lot of crazy things. The bigger you are the bigger the crazy."

To which I will add, when Finland (or Spain, or Argentina or other countries whose members have been poking the US in the eye in this thread) find themselves having to deal with situations even remotely approaching the level of consequence as confronting the post-WW2 Soviet Union then I'll be more than happy to hear your assessment of our performance. All of you are speaking now with the benefit of hindsight, and for Finland and Spain particularly with the luxury of facing no threat of Soviet expansion thanks in part to all the shitty things that the US did during the Cold War. How quickly people forget.

Either way, if you've got it all figured out I suggest Finland step up and do something on the world stage apart from get in bed with whatever country they need to in order to preserve their way of life (ironically a version of the same charge you are levelling at the US).

[Edited 2013-09-16 04:18:28]

User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2480 posts, RR: 8
Reply 80, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting Brick (Reply 78):

Lol most politicians do not write their own speeches. You know that right? They have speechwriters, it is a job profession in political capitals.

I've written a few myself...



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 79):

Finland did what was needed to be done to survive and keep our independence.

The fight United States started against Soviet Union and really any revolutionary organization and governments that fought against extreme social injustice in many countries, especially around Latin America wasn't necessary for the survival and independence of United States and its way of life. There's a difference between fighting to protect interests of exploiting American corporations abroad and fighting for the very survival of a nation, to stay independent like Finland did.

It shouldn't have been America's business what kind of government people abroad elect or if some weak government falls to a revolutionary group and new the new one happens to be socialist.



"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2315 posts, RR: 5
Reply 82, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2170 times:

To see Western Europeans compare the United States to the Soviet Union is truly remarkable. To see a Spaniard compare what his country did to Central and South America to what was done to the region by the United Staes, well that's a bit of pure comedic genius.

I'm the first to admit the many, many faults of the United States throughout its history. But to compare what this country to did for Europe to what the Soviets did to Eastern Europe and Central Asia? I guess Americans aren't the only ones to lack in historical knowledge.

And Spain in Latin America? If it looks like ethnic cleansing, and smells like religious persecution, and sounds like wholesale theft of natural resources...then we must be talking about 250+ years of Spanish benevolence in the New World. The US has done some nasty things in Latin America but NOTHING comes close to the legendary brutality of the Conquistadors. Those guys could go mano a mano with Heydrich any day of the week. Lovely gents!

Putin may make some valid points but how could anyone take the guy seriously. He's the one that sold Assad the Sarin!


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 83, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

[

Quoting pvjin (Reply 81):
Finland did what was needed to be done to survive and keep our independence.

Another big difference is the fact that Finland as you say "did what was needed to be done" to survive, where as the US/West seems to think, it has to up hold democracy or "instill" democracy, in countries where they do not yet have it.

Quoting wingman (Reply 82):
Putin may make some valid points but how could anyone take the guy seriously. He's the one that sold Assad the Sarin!

Are you 100% sure about that ......??????
'
Think you will find they obtained supply's through various sources !

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...red-Sarin-agent-Syrian-regime.html



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinewingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2315 posts, RR: 5
Reply 84, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2115 times:

I think you understand my argument though. Putin is complicit in aiding and abetting what is likely to be classified as a crime against humanity. That's some serious shit right there. And Russia and China actively and openly support the proliferation of nuclear weapons infrastructure to highly unstable regimes (e.g. North Korea and Iran).

I grant you there are numerous instances of hypocrisy in US history, but to isolate those moments and use them to say that the US record as a superpower is no better than that of the Soviet Union's is utterly laughable. Stalin has more blood on his hands than Hitler, Hirohito, Franco, and Mussolini combined. The man was a stone cold killer that terrorized hundreds of millions of people. Clearly we were allied with the man and his country out of pure necessity, but even Churchill knew the man to be evil from the get go. And remember the difference in numbers between those shot jumping West over the Berlin Wall vs. those jumping East.

By the same token I find very distasteful that the US has a cozy and tight relationship with Saudi Arabia, or that we had one with Pinochet, or Franco...but in some cases you have to make a choice when none of the answers is the one you really want, and you hope that choosing what you think is the least bad turns out for the best. Make no mistake though, guys like Putin are different, they wouldn't bat an eye if Syria gassed a million children, and nor would the Chinese. You say that that makes them less hypocritical than the US, but that's a sorry ass world to be living in.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 85, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Quoting pvjin (Reply 77):
No, blame United States for supporting the illegal military coup and a dictatorship that killed thousands of its own people.

Had United States not intervened and supported many right wing savage groups around Latin America there's a possibility that many more of them could actually be respectable well developed countries today, such as Cuba where everyone has access to high quality education and healthcare while in Haiti half of the people can't even read.

The reality is you Americans weren't any better than your Soviet enemies. At least nowadays Russia doesn't even portray itself as a defender of freedom and democracy like your hypocritical government still does when it attacks someone.

Keep up the hopes that people will not see or understand your own countries behavior. I refer you to the replies below yours. They have said it far better than I could. Hypocrisy is alive and well all over the globe. Finland had to do what it did to survive. I rest my case.

[Edited 2013-09-16 18:57:23]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1698 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 82):
The US has done some nasty things in Latin America but NOTHING comes close to the legendary brutality of the Conquistadors. Those guys could go mano a mano with Heydrich any day of the week. Lovely gents!

Hmmm, what was that american invention of the 19th Century called that had a few clues from the manual of the Conquistadores?.

Oh yeah, "Manifest Destiny".

Quoting GDB (Reply 70):
While the US did many questionable to bad things during the Cold War, moral relativism between the US/NATO and the USSR/Warsaw Pact does not stand up so well when you consider how France could throw US forces out of it's territory in 1966, become largely disengaged from NATO, with no retaliation, of any kind at all, from the US.
(When the French President called LBJ and told him to get his forces out, LBJ replied 'including the ones buried there?')
Now compare with Hungary 1956, the 'Prague Spring' in 1968 and the threats to go into Poland in 1981.

Well, duh, it would have been counter productive to invade France. They might have "left" NATO but they were still an asset against the USSR. Had they turned towards communism...

Too bad any coutry in Latin America who tried to leave the fold of the US(and capitalism) received a similar "lesson" to that of the Prague Spring, Poland and the likes. So no, it wasn't any different.

And before WW2, lets not forget that any country "threatening" American companies or getting too close to European Empires would have received the visit of the United States Marine Corps.
Just take a good look at Nicaragua's history: 1850, 1853, 1854, 1857, 1910, 1912, 1926, etc.
Plus similar adventures in the Dominican Republic, Panama, Cuba, El Salvador, Honduras, etc.

How was it called?. Oh yeah, the Monroe Doctrine and Roosevelt Corollary to the Doctrine

See, it is obvious you dislike anything Russian and you might try to whitewash things as much as you want, but the US wasn't any different when it came to supressing "dissent" in "it's backyard", the only difference is that they suceed at disguising and hiding things at the time. As usual, the Russians didn't care much about PR or being PC.

Quoting wingman (Reply 84):
Putin is complicit in aiding and abetting what is likely to be classified as a crime against humanity. That's some serious shit right there.

Last time I checked, the US didn't seem to have much of an issue sparing and granting immunity to members of Japan's Unit 731, you know, those guy who made Mengele look like an amateur.

Or the thousands of people who died at the hands of the US supported governments of Videla, Pinochet, Stroessner, Mohammed Reza, Somoza, Papa Doc and Baby Doc, Mobutu Sese Zeko, Suharto(East Timor rings a bell?.), and a few others.

Quoting wingman (Reply 84):
I grant you there are numerous instances of hypocrisy in US history, but to isolate those moments and use them to say that the US record as a superpower is no better than that of the Soviet Union's is utterly laughable. Stalin has more blood on his hands than Hitler, Hirohito, Franco, and Mussolini combined. The man was a stone cold killer that terrorized hundreds of millions of people. Clearly we were allied with the man and his country out of pure necessity, but even Churchill knew the man to be evil from the get go. And remember the difference in numbers between those shot jumping West over the Berlin Wall vs. those jumping East.

Still with the silly "bodycount" argument. Like I said, deaths caused by US involvements sits comfortably between Hitler's and Stalin at +10.000.000 since 1940's, if you really want to keep being silly.

You see, everybody knew Stalin was an evil asshole but WW2 would have ended the way it did if it wasn't because of his assholery and douchiness?. Your lot on the other hand, still pretend to be the good guys of the movie and lecture other countries on "human rights" and "democracy", and when you can't, send in the Marines.

Quoting wingman (Reply 84):
Make no mistake though, guys like Putin are different, they wouldn't bat an eye if Syria gassed a million children, and nor would the Chinese.

The US didn't bat an eye when Saddam gassed the Iranians and the Kurds in 80's, either

Quoting wingman (Reply 84):
By the same token I find very distasteful that the US has a cozy and tight relationship with Saudi Arabia, or that we had one with Pinochet, or Franco...but in some cases you have to make a choice when none of the answers is the one you really want, and you hope that choosing what you think is the least bad turns out for the best.

LOL. That ranks up there with the "I was just following orders" in the bullshit meter, on the fact that many of the ousted governments weren't really Commies but just made the "mistake" of touching the money of US Companies.

Quoting wingman (Reply 84):
You say that that makes them less hypocritical than the US, but that's a sorry ass world to be living in.

Not only makes them less hypocritical but also easier to deal with, as what you see is what you get and you know if you do this or that, you will get a certain reaction from them.
The US, on the other hand, will shake your hand while at the same time it funnels money and resources to your enemies in case you dare to do anything that is deemed against "US interests"(whatever that vague term means at the time) then they will use organizations like HRW(or local ones in some cases) to start talking shit to the press about you( in cases where giving them weapons would be too obvious), so the members "Americuuhhh! FUCK YEAH!" crowd like yourself will support any action the US Government decides to take.

That's how the world works, and beats living in some imaginary and anachronistic lala land of "good guys"(us) vs "bad guys"(them) filled with ideological idiocy of some non-existant moral superiority...

Quoting windy95 (Reply 69):
Do not think that I have ever agreed with you before. Cheers.

Hell must be freezing over  Big grin

[Edited 2013-09-17 08:09:42]

User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2748 posts, RR: 8
Reply 87, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1972 times:

Quoting wingman (Reply 82):
And Spain in Latin America? If it looks like ethnic cleansing, and smells like religious persecution, and sounds like wholesale theft of natural resources...then we must be talking about 250+ years of Spanish benevolence in the New World. The US has done some nasty things in Latin America but NOTHING comes close to the legendary brutality of the Conquistadors. Those guys could go mano a mano with Heydrich any day of the week. Lovely gents!




It should be argued more along the lines of what Europe as a whole did to the Americas. They all had their hand in the pot when it came to the exploitation and slaughter of the indigenous population. I still cannot believe that they still sell the whole Columbus discovered America crap. And that he was this great explorer. Europe and by extension the countries they created here are all guilty of what had happened.

I believe Acherons argument is more of a modern one. And it is a good question?Since say the Spanish American war which really started the modern era for the US military how many people have we killed in the name of Democracy? The Phillipines, The Banana wars, Vietnam, Iraq and all of the Dictators and thug governmetns that we supported or destroyed. Then toss in our involvement in WWI and WWII and we have some dirty hands. Most of these places we had no business in excpet to keep Bu$ine$$ going.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 88, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 87):
It should be argued more along the lines of what Europe as a whole did to the Americas. They all had their hand in the pot when it came to the exploitation and slaughter of the indigenous population. I still cannot believe that they still sell the whole Columbus discovered America crap. And that he was this great explorer. Europe and by extension the countries they created here are all guilty of what had happened.

I think it is silly to criticize a modern country for the actions in the 1500s or so. There were terrible atrocities that no one can or does defend and society was different. Not condoning anything, but slavery and exploitation were just what everyone did... what Spain did is what France did is what the Indians would have done if they were strong and what many African/black slavers did. We can forgive, never forget, but not judge the current people for the actions of the far past. I mean really, we're really gonna accuse Spanish people for what their distant ancestors did centuries ago? The Russians? The Americans?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2748 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 88):
I think it is silly to criticize a modern country for the actions in the 1500s or so. There were terrible atrocities that no one can or does defend and society was different. Not condoning anything, but slavery and exploitation were just what everyone did... what Spain did is what France did is what the Indians would have done if they were strong and what many African/black slavers did. We can forgive, never forget, but not judge the current people for the actions of the far past. I mean really, we're really gonna accuse Spanish people for what their distant ancestors did centuries ago? The Russians? The Americans?

Correct it is silly. I was just answering to the comparing of what happened in North Vs South America during that time. It was all bad and was done by Europeans or people of European descent.

But we can judge the countries for the modern era of the last 100 years for which the United States would be hypocritical to call out Russia for it's behavior in other countries or even within it's own borders.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 90, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 89):
But we can judge the countries for the modern era of the last 100 years for which the United States would be hypocritical to call out Russia for it's behavior in other countries or even within it's own borders.

I agree, and I wasn't calling you out. I was just tacking onto the overall discussion. Today's actions and near history is fair game IMO. What I hate is when someone says "you can't attack my country's policy because you're country does ____" as if I agree with that action... in addition, no matter what I supposedly support, it doesn't make the other country's actions any less right or wrong



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1698 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 87):
It should be argued more along the lines of what Europe as a whole did to the Americas. They all had their hand in the pot when it came to the exploitation and slaughter of the indigenous population.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 88):
I think it is silly to criticize a modern country for the actions in the 1500s or so. There were terrible atrocities that no one can or does defend and society was different. Not condoning anything, but slavery and exploitation were just what everyone did...

Well, it is true that European powers are guilty of pillaging, plundering, massive genocides and general asshatery during the colonial stints, not only in the Americas but around the world to the point that the consecuences of such actions are still felt and seen today or Stalin's reign of horror is undeniably true, but in my opinion there is one key element that currently makes a difference

That key element is the fact that the Spanish Empire, the USSR and others stopped existing years ago(save some copy cat attempts in certain areas) whereas the Monroe Doctrine, the Manifest Destiny and other related policies are pretty much still in use today in some shape or form.

If anything, history seems to argue against colonialism in any way, be it actual colonialism, political colonialism or economic colonialism.

But alas, human beings love to colonize others, be it their country or their minds.

[Edited 2013-09-17 16:43:46]

User currently offlinePhilBy From France, joined Aug 2013, 669 posts, RR: 1
Reply 92, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 89):
It was all bad and was done by Europeans or people of European descent.

Don't forget that the asians and people of asian descent were just as good at it back in the good ole centuries. 

For some reason I find it very difficult to blame the USA for things that happened 250+ years ago.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13241 posts, RR: 77
Reply 93, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Quoting Acheron (Reply 86):
See, it is obvious you dislike anything Russian and you might try to whitewash things as much as you want, but the US wasn't any different when it came to supressing "dissent" in "it's backyard", the only difference is that they suceed at disguising and hiding things at the time. As usual, the Russians didn't care much about PR or being PC.

There you go again, such assumptions based on what?

I think it's one of the great missed opportunities of modern times that Russia, under Putin, has reverted back to many of the habits of the USSR.
And still the fundamental problems that afflicted the USSR are still here.
No real middle class, under the Czars you had a small elite and rest were little more than serfs.
In the USSR, whatever the original aims of 1917, you had the Communist elite and the rest, the great majority, still effectively serfs.
Now, you have the Oligarchs running things, of which Putin is just one of.

Therefore you have an economy based of fossil fuels and arms sales.
One is finite, when oil in large amounts began to flow from Siberia, it did not save the USSR, since around the same time the failure of Soviet agriculture meant large amounts of grain had to be imported from.....guess where?
The US and to an extent, the then Common Market in Europe.

Russia has a very proud tradition of culture, science, aside from oil and arms where is it in the Russian economy?
Why are there all those Russians working in the cutting edge of technology, including IT, for largely US companies?
Outside the glittering cities of Moscow and St Petersburg, the average life expectancy for Russian males is the same as in Sub Saharan Africa.
That's awful.

Without a vibrant middle class, business stays with the crooked Oligarchs, a moderating influence in politics is absent.
What we take for granted.

But here's the thing, we in the West have to share a bit of the blame.
It was pressure from Washington that helped to enable that extreme, overnight, fire sale of the state assets.
Had Russian moved away from Communism in a more measured, balanced, social democratic way, I really believe that 20 years on, we would be seeing a Russia with a more balanced economy, or at least headed in that direction, the likes of Putin would not be in power, there would a freer, more diverse press - independent journalism would not be the highly dangerous occupation it is now.
No radioactive poisons on London streets either.

It gets worse, after this you'd think the idea of another extreme fire sale of state assets in a foreign country would be avoided. But in Iraq in 2003, they actually went further and instantly shut down the non industrial institutions including the army, we know how that worked out in Iraq.
So no, I don't view the Russians and the US in the terms you seem to think.
I know the real world is never as simple as that.

However, having said all that, after the chaos of the Yeltsin years, Russia still might have taken a more moderate path, built on freedoms not stifled them.
What I'm saying is the policies from some in Washington in the early/mid 1990's made that far less likely to happen.
The appeal Putin had to restore a sense of order is easy to understand from the Russian people.
They've suffered enough.


User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1251 posts, RR: 17
Reply 94, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 93):

I do agree that had we not had Yeltsin and company in the 90s we would not have had Putin in 2000. Now the west's role in this. The fact alone that relations with the west were MUCH better during Yeltsin's presidency than Putin / Medvedev says a lot to ordinary Russians. People just come to a conclusion that when things were screwed up for us (Yeltsin) = better relations. Things get better (now) = relations get worse...
All in all, Most Russians would agree that things are getting progressively better.



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2931 posts, RR: 8
Reply 95, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1805 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 94):
All in all, Most Russians would agree that things are getting progressively better.

And that's exactly what I have witnessed on my travels to Russia.

Despite the media/critics/west. I think most people as you say, see things getting better. Although it sometimes can appear that its one step forward and two steps back, but after decades of communistic rule, its no wonder that it will take time.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 9202 posts, RR: 11
Reply 96, posted (1 year 2 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 94):
All in all, Most Russians would agree that things are getting progressively better.

There is no doubt that things are better for the Russians, the question is why is Putting following the old routine? I will make Russia better by Demonizing the West. It is a tried and true method, of turning the spotlight away from him and others while stifling personal freedoms by using a Bogey man, the West. One has to be careful, to keep the pressure on politically, lest you slip back into the days of the knock on the door in the middle of the night. Make no mistake, it is possible, and maybe still happening.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Open Letter To The French President … posted Sat Aug 16 2008 06:58:15 by Beaucaire
An Open Letter To Our US Members. posted Wed Oct 4 2006 20:36:17 by CHRISBA777ER
An Open Letter To George Bush posted Thu Apr 27 2006 18:11:22 by Columba
An Open Letter To Bush And Kerry posted Wed Nov 3 2004 10:34:56 by B747-437B
Osama's Letter To America. posted Wed May 19 2004 02:41:42 by Galaxy5
Open Letter To All Americans posted Wed Feb 26 2003 15:48:21 by Capt.Picard
An Open Letter To Europe posted Mon Feb 4 2002 18:02:07 by DELL_dude
An Open Letter To Terrorists posted Thu Oct 18 2001 17:37:35 by Alpha 1
An Open Letter To A Terrorist... posted Sat Sep 15 2001 23:36:10 by Airlinelover
My Letter To Unicef CEO posted Thu Aug 5 2010 15:29:09 by propilot83