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Lost Unions, Lost Ground, Lost Wages.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Posted (1 year 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2939 times:

http://www.providencejournal.com/opi...-unions-lost-ground-lost-wages.ece


A viewpoint on what has affected the American workers, all workers because of the decline of unions in the US. It also touch's on the racial aspect, and the social aspect, and also the economic result of this on our wages and it's affect on the economic well being of our country. What were the latest figures? 1% control 20% of the wealth, and 20% control 48% of the wealth now. The highest since 1928 was it?

[Edited 2013-09-12 18:43:27]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

Wow, that was not a biased pro-union article was it?!?!?!


GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 1):
Wow, that was not a biased pro-union article was it?!?!?!

Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently? Show me how it was not truthful.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently? Show me how it was not truthful.

+1 Sir...i'd like to see evidence proving that article wrong...



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 3):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently? Show me how it was not truthful.



+1 Sir...i'd like to see evidence proving that article wrong...

We now number two people, you and I who would like to see that article proven untrue.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2690 times:
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In 2013, most labor unions are a pathetic joke, particularly those that represent workers that do jobs that any random individual off the street could do. Back in the day, when employers would scrimp on safety issues and such, unions had a place to protect their members. They are an anachronism now.

When you enter the labor market, you are essentially doing nothing more than selling your labor. It is the responsibility of the individual to enhance the value of their labor through training and education, because, as in all business arrangements, the customers (in this case, employers) determine the value of that labor by their willingness to pay a certain price for it (a wage.) For example, physicians do not have labor unions: Their labor is sufficiently valuable, because of their skills and training, that they can command a high income without organizing a corrupt, self-serving union. If one needs a union to ensure a particular wage/benefit structure, it is because they are demanding a wage/benefit structure that is in excess of the marginal product of their labor. If their labor was that valuable, the employer would have no choice but to pay what was demanded.

My father was unionized in Western PA steel mills in the late 70's. He saw how they protected slackers and sub-standard workers while he busted his butt for essentially the same wage, and decided he could no longer be a part of it. He got out just before the steel industry collapsed. The United Steel Workers didn't cause that collapse, but they didn't help, either.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (1 year 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
In 2013, most labor unions are a pathetic joke, particularly those that represent workers that do jobs that any random individual off the street could do. Back in the day, when employers would scrimp on safety issues and such, unions had a place to protect their members. They are an anachronism now.

We are not looking for a rant, we are looking for someone to prove the article on which this thread is based on to be false. We are all aware of the hatred by many of unions on here. A reply accused the writers of being pro-union, I agree, but what they wrote is pro-union and the truth. Please prove this article false, if you can.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2676 times:
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I note that the article in question is based largely on what is referred to by the authors as "our research" that is not substantiated. I also note that the article in question conveniently sidesteps the issue of the increased local unemployment that would result from companies who cannot afford to pay the wages demanded by the unions, and relocate their operations either overseas or to "right-to-work" states. Not to mention the higher prices for goods produced by workers earning wages that are artificially inflated by unionization.

Weak Sauce.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (1 year 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 7):
I note that the article in question is based largely on what is referred to by the authors as "our research" that is not substantiated. I also note that the article in question conveniently sidesteps the issue of the increased local unemployment that would result from companies who cannot afford to pay the wages demanded by the unions, and relocate their operations either overseas or to "right-to-work" states. Not to mention the higher prices for goods produced by workers earning wages that are artificially inflated by unionization.

Weak Sauce.

They did the research, they are educated people as far as I remember. They published what they researched, They say it is true. I agree. Anyone who does not believe that the loss of union membership in this country, has been negative for the workers in this country is either very naïve, not able to accept reality, or believes that the exploitation of workers is just fine and dandy. I know we have many who do believe in exploitation, I do not. Prove them wrong.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2665 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Please prove this article false, if you can.

OK, WarRI1, that's a fair point. I can't necessarily prove the assertions of the article false, in fact they are probably largely, technically, correct. But I think there are so many other issues surrounding the subject matter involved that are SO MUCH more important than the rather narrowly-focused thrust of the article that it is worth mentioning that, at the end of the day, the fundamental assertions of the article are only marginally relevant at this point. I guess my point is: "OK, you may be correct, but who cares?"

Fair enough?


User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2649 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Anyone who does not believe that the loss of union membership in this country, has been negative for the workers in this country is either very naïve, not able to accept reality, or believes that the exploitation of workers is just fine and dandy.

I have a relatively well-paid, white-collar job....but insofar as I am exhausted at the end of the day, I do kind of feel like I "work" for a living and am therefore a "worker." The idea that people who do manual labor are "workers" and those who work with their brains are not "workers" is highly offensive to me. I am not represented by a union. I do not consider myself particularly naive, nor unaccepting of reality. I will throw you an olive branch in that I will agree with you that the reduction in union membership has not been great for *unskilled* workers. But in this day and age, if one is of working age and has no marketable skills, whose fault is that? I busted my a$$ in my early 20s working a crappy full-time job and going to an inexpensive public university at night to get my degree. It took me 8 miserable years, that SUCKED, but I did it. Now I have a good job. I consider myself a compassionate individual, but pardon me if I don't shed a tear for someone who chose to spend their early 20s partying and getting high, while I was doing schoolwork, for not being able to find a job making as much as I do, with little to no marketable skills.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (1 year 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2648 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 9):

OK, WarRI1, that's a fair point. I can't necessarily prove the assertions of the article false, in fact they are probably largely, technically, correct. But I think there are so many other issues surrounding the subject matter involved that are SO MUCH more important than the rather narrowly-focused thrust of the article that it is worth mentioning that, at the end of the day, the fundamental assertions of the article are only marginally relevant at this point. I guess my point is: "OK, you may be correct, but who cares?"

Fair enough?

At what point? I care. I think the workers are being screwed over more now than in the last 50 years. It is a direct result of the loss of union jobs which were a counterpoint to low wages. They provided an escape from exploitation. They were an implicit threat, pay us, or we will go union. All gone now, and we see the result. Low wages, no job security, no benefits. People are numbers, to be shuffled around like they were years ago, but now we have the global shuffle, and there hangs a tale. Maybe when people have had enough, we will again hear the word union. Even among white collar workers. Make no mistake, no economy can exist without jobs, and if they think it can be done, we will have a welfare economy. A few supporting the many. We are on the way to that now.

[Edited 2013-09-13 20:25:37]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (1 year 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2640 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 10):
I have a relatively well-paid, white-collar job....but insofar as I am exhausted at the end of the day, I do kind of feel like I "work" for a living and am therefore a "worker." The idea that people who do manual labor are "workers" and those who work with their brains are not "workers" is highly offensive to me

I am happy for you, I admire your get up and go. I do not consider you a non-worker, nor would any one else I know. We in the union world worked with highly educated co- workers, engineers and such everyday. There was respect on both sides, for a job well done. This unreasoning hatred on here for unions is absurd, plus elsewhere. The system is broken now. You know the saying, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Truer words were never spoken, in all situations, even in labor relations.


The power has shifted too much to the corporations side. We are, and even you maybe suffering because of it. Overworked perhaps, who knows. One thing is clear, people who work now are much less happy than they were 30 years ago. I loved my job, hated to retire. I was union. My wife, management, ended up hating her job and retired early because of the pressure, the overwork, watching people shoved out the door, while younger people earning less money stayed. That is why they stayed, to cut expenses. time and loyalty meant nothing. I wish you luck.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2741 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (1 year 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2633 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
Back in the day, when employers would scrimp on safety issues and such, unions had a place to protect their members. They are an anachronism now.

You have to be joking if you think that safety issues today are resolved and that it can be left up to the employer to do the right thing and protect their workers. There were 4,693 fatal work injuries in 2011 and 4,383 fatal work injuries recorded in the United States in 2012, according to results from the Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) conducted by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Unions work not only at the employer/employee level thru Health and Safety Committees to keep workers safe, but also unions work at the legislative level to see that laws and regulations that govern safety are put and kept in place.

Unions as an anachronism? Hardly!!!!


User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2630 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
That is why they stayed, to cut expenses. time and loyalty meant nothing. I wish you luck.

Not gonna argue anymore, my friend. We clearly have a fundamental disagreement with respect to unions, but at the end of the day, I feel like if we sat down over a round of beers, we would probably find that we agree on much more then we disagree. You're a working man, I'm a working man. Best wishes to you  


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (1 year 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 14):
Not gonna argue anymore, my friend. We clearly have a fundamental disagreement with respect to unions, but at the end of the day, I feel like if we sat down over a round of beers, we would probably find that we agree on much more then we disagree. You're a working man, I'm a working man. Best wishes to you

I could not agree more. I do it everyday when we go to the coffee shop, retired union, management guys, wealthy guys, we all sit down and shoot the shit. We solve all the worlds problems, and the next day start over again. We now realize we are basically all the same, just trying to survive. Age does that.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (1 year 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Oh Unions. I think the airline industry has showed us how great they are for business. And in the public spectrum they help keep lazy, unqualified workers, and people who are just bad at their job at work. Google some of the police officers who have been fired, suspended or even arrested in Florida who continue to get their jobs back because of the unions.

When I was working at a corporate counsel office of a large company we had an union come into one of our facilities and spend over $800K in services for the heads of the union of only the regional chapter. $800k in luxury services, nothing was essential or towards business and it was for the heads of the union only, i. the region we are in. $800,000. Those guys represented workers who mostly made minimum wage. It was good business for us but wow were they screwing over the people they supposedly were put to help and protect. Why not give the $800,000 for something useful for them.

If unions actually took care of the good workers, if the union bosses were not in it for the money, then maybe they would be a good thing. Maybe.

Ask Chrysler and General Motors how great those unions are for them.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3640 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

I love reading articles like this one that show how unions really are...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...-plans-drop-dead/?partner=yahootix

In it for the little guy...HA!



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2541 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently?

Have you paid JSTOR the $14 it costs to download a PDF of the study to confirm whether it holds water or not? Just because the study is published, it doesn't make it credible.

If in fact neither of us have actually read the study, I can disprove the findings so much as you can prove them.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
This unreasoning hatred on here for unions is absurd

Don't throw stones in glass houses, WarRI1. If I cared to dedicate a few minutes to it, I could easily pull up some of your more recent threads on the issue and pull out many, many comments you have made that hate on some (like myself) who are critical of unions.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
The power has shifted too much to the corporations side.

Corporations are about as self-aware as the bottle of Żywiec sitting next to my laptop right now. People make decisions under the name of a corporations, so "the power has shifted" to different people. Union workers have as much opportunity to be those people if they're willing to work for it. The obvious problem being that unions cover the asses of the people not willing to work for it, while the smaller segment of hardworking union guys are largely unrecognized because of the collective environment in which they operate.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
One thing is clear, people who work now are much less happy than they were 30 years ago. I loved my job, hated to retire. I was union. My wife, management, ended up hating her job and retired early because of the pressure, the overwork, watching people shoved out the door, while younger people earning less money stayed. That is why they stayed, to cut expenses. time and loyalty meant nothing. I wish you luck.

Your ability to paint everybody with same brush based on very narrow experiences is uncanny.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I've worked for 4 different companies in 4 different industries in 4 different functional areas of the business (all of which were "white collar") and only one was an unpleasant experience**. If I'm batting .750 in happiness at corporate jobs, the state of affairs these days can't be all that bad.

**I was working as an analyst for a major wealth management firm. I believe you said your wife worked for a bank. So there's a clear correlation there which seems to limit negative experience to the financial sector versus corporations as whole, hence my comment about you making sweeping statements.

Quoting flymia (Reply 16):
When I was working at a corporate counsel office of a large company we had an union come into one of our facilities and spend over $800K in services for the heads of the union of only the regional chapter. $800k in luxury services, nothing was essential or towards business and it was for the heads of the union only, i. the region we are in. $800,000. Those guys represented workers who mostly made minimum wage. It was good business for us but wow were they screwing over the people they supposedly were put to help and protect. Why not give the $800,000 for something useful for them.

I've tried telling the union crowd that the unions that represent them are corporations in themselves, often with similar levels of corruption, but they're willfully blind to that fact because the unions usually get them slight bumps in their pay. The whole "fighting for the little guy" thing is simply a means (read: opportunity) to an end (read: a paycheck) for union heads.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2741 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2541 times:

The reality is that it's not the union's fault that American health care is so screwed up. It's the politicos who simply can't understand that a Universal Single-Pay system of healthcare works best, and is easiest to administer. You know, like 95% of 1st-World Countries have in place.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15744 posts, RR: 27
Reply 20, posted (1 year 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2500 times:

Why do unions fear right to work so much? Right to work doesn't ban unions, it just says they cannot force people to join. But, if unions are as important and beneficial as they believe themselves to be, it should be no issue for them since workers should be clamoring to join unions or unionize their workplaces, and businesses should be happy to have them since union workers are just better and worth more money. Nobody seems quite sure how, but that's what I'm told by pro-union people anyway.

If unions are worried about declining membership, they should focus on training and stop extorting uneconomical wages for their workers. Have a product to sell and sell it at a reasonable price, just like any other business.

Which brings me to my next point: maybe the type of unskilled labor commonly represented by unions is simply just worth less these days. There is far more competition for jobs these days, overseas or otherwise. If you look at almost any product, you'll see huge leaps in capability and huge drops in cost. Even in the 1980s, a TV with a 25 or so inch screen would cost over $500. A larger, modern LED TV costs considerably less than that even before accounting for inflation and is better at literally everything. So what about the worker? In what way is the high school educated (don't confuse "uneducated" with "unskilled," it is not the same thing), blue collar, American worker improved over his counterpart from sixty or eighty years ago? So you have a situation where there is more competition but not more suitability on the part of one of the competitors. It's no wonder wages have been stagnant or dropping, but it's not a conspiracy, it's economics.

And of course nobody seems to be able to talk about unions without mentioning "equality." Unions seem very interested in equality, which sounds like a good idea until you realize that not all workers are equal.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
What were the latest figures? 1% control 20% of the wealth, and 20% control 48% of the wealth now.

They made money, invested it, and made more money. That's not something to be resisted, that's something to be emulated.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
watching people shoved out the door, while younger people earning less money stayed.

Perhaps unions could learn a thing or two from this very dynamic.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 19):
It's the politicos who simply can't understand that a Universal Single-Pay system of healthcare works best, and is easiest to administer.

Yeah, nothing solves problems like a monopoly. Especially one run by the government.  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 16):
$800K in services for the heads of the union of only the regional chapter

Might I ask, where you got that info? Was it in wages? In benefits? Cars? travel? How many people are involved in those numbers? Did the union send you a copy? Anyone can throw a figure out there.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2459 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Have you paid JSTOR the $14 it costs to download a PDF of the study to confirm whether it holds water or not? Just because the study is published, it doesn't make it credible.

Anyone with their two feet firmly planted on the ground, and reads, watch's the news, stays informed when reports are made and then can deny that the worker is getting screwed over more every year and that the loss of unions in the private sector has not contributed greatly to this is naïve. Just look at what union representation has done for government workers. I rest my case.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
If in fact neither of us have actually read the study, I can disprove the findings so much as you can prove them.

Read my statement above.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Don't throw stones in glass houses, WarRI1. If I cared to dedicate a few minutes to it, I could easily pull up some of your more recent threads on the issue and pull out many, many comments you have made that hate on some (like myself) who are critical of unions.

I wish you would. Was I polite? Was I crude? Was I insulting to the point of being deleted? Did I lie? did I distort? did I spew hatred? Did I use personal attacks. Did I Use generalities, so as not to make personal attacks?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Your ability to paint everybody with same brush based on very narrow experiences is uncanny.

Over 40 years union, 30 of them a union official. Now how do I paint everyone with the same brush? I know that some on here support me, I know that many more do not. I have to accept that the charge of painting people is caused by unreasonable dislike of unions on here by a large number of people, many because of age most certainly have narrow, or no experience. What is yours if I maybe so bold? I have told you all what my reason is for liking unions, let us hear about all the experiences the union haters have.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8908 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2444 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Don't throw stones in glass houses, WarRI1. If I cared to dedicate a few minutes to it, I could easily pull up some of your more recent threads on the issue and pull out many, many comments you have made that hate on some (like myself) who are critical of unions.

I only made a quick search back. I do not see any comments in which I used any way out there comments to you, or others. I have been rather calm in fact as far as I can see. If anyone out there can find any, let me know. I try my best to avoid the dreaded deletion. I have bitten my lip many times.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

It's a two way street. One the one hand, you have globalization. US factory workers don't have any bargaining power globally (or even against competing states). Nor do their employers.

The only workers who really have the power to get "rent" are govt workers. They are connected to government, and wield the power to tax their neighbors, and frankly take their homes away unless they get paid.

You can see what side of the debate I take. Organizing is a right, but not an exclusive one.

[Edited 2013-09-14 19:27:03]

25 flymia : The union regional chapter spent $800k in services, this had nothing to do with wages, travel etc.. it was checks made out to the company I worked fo
26 Post contains links Mir : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association Technically not a union, but it does a lot of the things a union would do. Their lobbying ef
27 windy95 : How about blaming the unions for supporting Obamacare and illegal alien amnesty. Unions have a large part in the destruction of unions and the pay sc
28 rwy04lga : For me, a Federal employee from 1978 to 2008? Little to NOTHING!! All around me...transit workers...teachers...sanitation...private sector.....ALL go
29 photopilot : So in 30 years, what did YOU do about it? Did you attend union meetings and voice your opinion? Did you run for elected union office yourself so that
30 johnboy : Actually at the hospital I recently worked at, there WAS a physicians' union. Best not to generalize, Sparky.
31 WarRI1 : I am not doubting your word. I am amazed that such a thing could happen these days. It sure sounds like everyone involved lived high off the hog. Was
32 WarRI1 : I support the ACA. I do not support illegals, no way, no how. I do not agree, everything worked just fine until the Global Economy came along, we had
33 Post contains images WarRI1 : Those are the unions I was referring to. I did not know the Federal employee did so poorly. I was under the impression to hear the union bashers that
34 WarRI1 : Amen Brother. I worked my ass off earning my money. I worked with construction crews on the job, they worked their asses off also. 15 minutes for cof
35 Post contains images WarRI1 : I am so glad to see you point that out. Score one for honesty and reality.
36 photopilot : I've personally seen slackers and dead weight in BOTH union and non-union shops. There are people in all walks of life that do just the minimum neces
37 BMI727 : Nobody is saying there are not non-union slackers, because there are. The issue is that the union will always defend them at all costs and make it as
38 WarRI1 : I should know better, but when I read something so ridiculous, I cannot help myself. The Union takes your dues, the union is your agent, they cannot
39 photopilot : No really.... I work in management in a unionized shop and I do discipline employees as necessary, though usually only as a last resort when coaching
40 deltadawg : In the same vein as your asking folks to prove the article untrue, prove that the people are educated. I am coming back into this thread late as I wa
41 WarRI1 : They are Professors of Sociology at the University of Maryland and Washington. I have to think they are educated. Not as educated as some on here for
42 L410Turbolet : I usually do not agree with BMI's one-dimensional world of textbook capitalism but he's spot on in this regard. Work experince or lack thererof has n
43 Post contains links BMI727 : Well, that's just it: they don't choose whom to protect. They are missing an "if," as in "The union is your agent as long as you uphold our standards
44 Post contains images deltadawg : It would be nice to see the diplomas!
45 MaverickM11 : I know it's nice to think that union membership is the silver bullet to all that ills the economy, but it misses as much context as the unions-are-all
46 KBJCpilot : I am in sales and have 3 local unions as clients. Occasionally, I will attend their board meetings when my company's contract is up for renewal or whe
47 johns624 : There must be a reason that most airline pilots are union. They are all well educated and have a very marketable skill...
48 windy95 : Which is anti union. But slackers are more prevelant in union society. Protection really slows people down. Another country having a lower cost of li
49 Post contains images WarRI1 : Rant on. I am sure they are on the record. It would be stupid to claim falsely with the knowledge that the union haters are on the track, like hungry
50 BMI727 : The lack of any relevant answer or coherent rebuttal speaks volumes. "We're coming to save you! All you need to do is give us some money and let us b
51 WarRI1 : Let us see now, I and millions have worked 30,40,50, years. We have raised families, supported families. We have served in the military, many have di
52 airportugal310 : My parents raised 3 kids who are all out of the house, working good jobs, and they own various rental properties on a combined income of roughly 50-6
53 BMI727 : So? Point... Point... We're looking for a point... ...not here... ...ooh, this might be the point... ...or not, never mind... ...well that's a lot to
54 MaverickM11 : Right, and it's not working, and mostly because techonology is killing them, and technology can have a hugely disproportionate effect on blue collar
55 windy95 : Can you please give a coherent answer instead of just the usual leftist union talking point's And your answers are not worthy of a response. Continue
56 rwy04lga : And, boy, you sound like what comes out after a fart.
57 FlyingSicilian : Why?- for cogent arguments and rebuttals to feckless union banter? Billions of people have done what WarRI listed without having been in, nor needing
58 sccutler : again, with the union discussion. Whenever this topic, or one like it, arises, we have the usual litany of discussions, at all points of the compass,
59 MaverickM11 : With the bankruptcies, pay cuts, layoffs, and mergers, has it really made much of a difference?
60 sccutler : Good question. My answer is, "yes," with certain qualifications. We have seen pilots unions which have been (in my opinion) shortsighted in their app
61 WarRI1 : But you did answer. Some are educated, some still have no class. He is obviously one of them.
62 WarRI1 : The reply was correct, he has a problem. It was pointed out, he used a classless accusation. Obviously you have no problem with that. Guess what???
63 BMI727 : It is impossible for a reasonable person to not ridicule many of the things you say and, unfortunately, appear to believe.
64 WarRI1 : In 1935, less than 1 in 100 blacks were in a union when Roosevelt signed the Wagner Act. By the 70's, 40 % of union people were black. Also by that t
65 WarRI1 : I taught my children to show respect also while I was raising them. You might consider a tour in our military. It will be good for you.
66 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.jakerosenfeld.net/index.html http://www.popcenter.umd.edu/mprc-associates/kleykamp Here are the home page links of the Co-writers of the ar
67 FlyingSicilian : And this shows your complete lack of basic "debate" skill. I mean this isn't even some 6th grade L/D debate answer. Do not suppose something I did no
68 windy95 : What would a tour in the military for him do to help you with your answers? Stating the obvious is not disrespectful.
69 FlyingSicilian : You seem to be mixing discussions/points here. What you wrote about unions historically is mainly accurate. However what unions did two/three generat
70 FlyingSicilian : I am vexed as to what that has to do with anything? Please expound upon that topic.
71 Post contains images WarRI1 : I could care less if someone calls me on anything. You will learn, I do not give a hoot as they say about whether I am a debater. What a laugh, now w
72 WarRI1 : I do not need help with my answers, he might learn something in the military, such a s discipline, respect, maturity, honor. You do understand that,
73 WarRI1 : See Reply 72. I need not explain further.
74 WarRI1 : Read reply 58. It was discussed there, about bigotry in unions way back. I pointed out bigotry did exist, but then blacks were accepted by unions. I
75 FlyingSicilian : Already did a couple times but thanks for the advice. It is a forum, which has its roots in sitting around debating a topic LOL Don't be ignorant. St
76 FlyingSicilian : Who gave a knee-jerk reaction (you mean sccutler)? I might have missed it (truthfully, I'll re-read his post). (It certainly wasn't me-not saying you
77 BMI727 : I cannot respect ideas that are wrong and those who cannot or will not make a case under direct questioning. The only rebuttal you seem to have is to
78 RomeoBravo : Christ, another Union thread. Of course a union is just a cartel, and i thought lefties hated cartels. I don't mind unions, provided they're voluntary
79 rwy04lga : NO, because he made disparaging comments about someones age. As if I need to meet with your approval.
80 FlyingSicilian : yes he did, no one disputes that and it is wrong. Several have done that on this thread. I could care less if you want my approval or not, it just ma
81 BMI727 : You mean like this?
82 rwy04lga : Correct form is 'couldn't care less'. Flatulence...feces....same $h!t
83 WarRI1 : Baloney, debate that. You debate, I will discuss, as in a forum.
84 WarRI1 : Now I am confused reading your replies. Thanks for your service.[Edited 2013-09-18 18:41:56]
85 FlyingSicilian : So, again what gives; you can't answer a question, so you throw out words like baloney? If you don't want discussion about a topic that is fine, you
86 WarRI1 : My reference to my own age, and millions more. You are full of bull, as you tend to be.
87 WarRI1 : Absolutely correct. If one is so concerned with rules about debate, one should reprimand one who uses crudity and a lack of respect in that debate.[E
88 Post contains links WarRI1 : http://www.providencejournal.com/opi...g-wealth-beats-shielding-greed.ece Another article about the inequality of pay and greed in the US. It says tha
89 RomeoBravo : You really need to stop reading such drivel. Everyone is greedy. Everyone is primarily interested in themselves. The main difference between a rich p
90 WarRI1 : Gee, I did not know that? I guess because I am not greedy. I know some of course, everyone does. Are you one, so you judge everyone by your standard?
91 RomeoBravo : Sorry, where have i advocated this? So you have a problem with humans then? I have no problem with anyone trying to earn as much as they possibly can
92 bhill : BMI in the military...hahahahahahahahahahahaha...he could NEVER be that selfless...about the draft...hell yes they would take you, even noob capitalis
93 WarRI1 : Below, a blanket indictment of the human race. I do not agree, many are, and many are not. I am one of the are not"s.
94 BMI727 : Oh? Have you ever gone on strike? Because if you have you hurt your fellow workers, union or non-union. You hurt shareholders, who might be retired f
95 Post contains images WarRI1 : Absolutely amazing, do you think that there are not enough engineers out there now? Maybe a stint in Combat Engineers will give you valuable experien
96 WarRI1 : Your worldly experience and knowledge are amazing. Now you are setting yourself up as an expert about military people and their service. I served, in
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