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Lost Unions, Lost Ground, Lost Wages.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Posted (7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2856 times:

http://www.providencejournal.com/opi...-unions-lost-ground-lost-wages.ece


A viewpoint on what has affected the American workers, all workers because of the decline of unions in the US. It also touch's on the racial aspect, and the social aspect, and also the economic result of this on our wages and it's affect on the economic well being of our country. What were the latest figures? 1% control 20% of the wealth, and 20% control 48% of the wealth now. The highest since 1928 was it?

[Edited 2013-09-12 18:43:27]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Wow, that was not a biased pro-union article was it?!?!?!


GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 1):
Wow, that was not a biased pro-union article was it?!?!?!

Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently? Show me how it was not truthful.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinemmedford From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 561 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently? Show me how it was not truthful.

+1 Sir...i'd like to see evidence proving that article wrong...



ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

Quoting mmedford (Reply 3):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently? Show me how it was not truthful.



+1 Sir...i'd like to see evidence proving that article wrong...

We now number two people, you and I who would like to see that article proven untrue.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2607 times:
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In 2013, most labor unions are a pathetic joke, particularly those that represent workers that do jobs that any random individual off the street could do. Back in the day, when employers would scrimp on safety issues and such, unions had a place to protect their members. They are an anachronism now.

When you enter the labor market, you are essentially doing nothing more than selling your labor. It is the responsibility of the individual to enhance the value of their labor through training and education, because, as in all business arrangements, the customers (in this case, employers) determine the value of that labor by their willingness to pay a certain price for it (a wage.) For example, physicians do not have labor unions: Their labor is sufficiently valuable, because of their skills and training, that they can command a high income without organizing a corrupt, self-serving union. If one needs a union to ensure a particular wage/benefit structure, it is because they are demanding a wage/benefit structure that is in excess of the marginal product of their labor. If their labor was that valuable, the employer would have no choice but to pay what was demanded.

My father was unionized in Western PA steel mills in the late 70's. He saw how they protected slackers and sub-standard workers while he busted his butt for essentially the same wage, and decided he could no longer be a part of it. He got out just before the steel industry collapsed. The United Steel Workers didn't cause that collapse, but they didn't help, either.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2597 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
In 2013, most labor unions are a pathetic joke, particularly those that represent workers that do jobs that any random individual off the street could do. Back in the day, when employers would scrimp on safety issues and such, unions had a place to protect their members. They are an anachronism now.

We are not looking for a rant, we are looking for someone to prove the article on which this thread is based on to be false. We are all aware of the hatred by many of unions on here. A reply accused the writers of being pro-union, I agree, but what they wrote is pro-union and the truth. Please prove this article false, if you can.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2593 times:
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I note that the article in question is based largely on what is referred to by the authors as "our research" that is not substantiated. I also note that the article in question conveniently sidesteps the issue of the increased local unemployment that would result from companies who cannot afford to pay the wages demanded by the unions, and relocate their operations either overseas or to "right-to-work" states. Not to mention the higher prices for goods produced by workers earning wages that are artificially inflated by unionization.

Weak Sauce.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2585 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 7):
I note that the article in question is based largely on what is referred to by the authors as "our research" that is not substantiated. I also note that the article in question conveniently sidesteps the issue of the increased local unemployment that would result from companies who cannot afford to pay the wages demanded by the unions, and relocate their operations either overseas or to "right-to-work" states. Not to mention the higher prices for goods produced by workers earning wages that are artificially inflated by unionization.

Weak Sauce.

They did the research, they are educated people as far as I remember. They published what they researched, They say it is true. I agree. Anyone who does not believe that the loss of union membership in this country, has been negative for the workers in this country is either very naïve, not able to accept reality, or believes that the exploitation of workers is just fine and dandy. I know we have many who do believe in exploitation, I do not. Prove them wrong.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2582 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Please prove this article false, if you can.

OK, WarRI1, that's a fair point. I can't necessarily prove the assertions of the article false, in fact they are probably largely, technically, correct. But I think there are so many other issues surrounding the subject matter involved that are SO MUCH more important than the rather narrowly-focused thrust of the article that it is worth mentioning that, at the end of the day, the fundamental assertions of the article are only marginally relevant at this point. I guess my point is: "OK, you may be correct, but who cares?"

Fair enough?


User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 2566 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Anyone who does not believe that the loss of union membership in this country, has been negative for the workers in this country is either very naïve, not able to accept reality, or believes that the exploitation of workers is just fine and dandy.

I have a relatively well-paid, white-collar job....but insofar as I am exhausted at the end of the day, I do kind of feel like I "work" for a living and am therefore a "worker." The idea that people who do manual labor are "workers" and those who work with their brains are not "workers" is highly offensive to me. I am not represented by a union. I do not consider myself particularly naive, nor unaccepting of reality. I will throw you an olive branch in that I will agree with you that the reduction in union membership has not been great for *unskilled* workers. But in this day and age, if one is of working age and has no marketable skills, whose fault is that? I busted my a$$ in my early 20s working a crappy full-time job and going to an inexpensive public university at night to get my degree. It took me 8 miserable years, that SUCKED, but I did it. Now I have a good job. I consider myself a compassionate individual, but pardon me if I don't shed a tear for someone who chose to spend their early 20s partying and getting high, while I was doing schoolwork, for not being able to find a job making as much as I do, with little to no marketable skills.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 9):

OK, WarRI1, that's a fair point. I can't necessarily prove the assertions of the article false, in fact they are probably largely, technically, correct. But I think there are so many other issues surrounding the subject matter involved that are SO MUCH more important than the rather narrowly-focused thrust of the article that it is worth mentioning that, at the end of the day, the fundamental assertions of the article are only marginally relevant at this point. I guess my point is: "OK, you may be correct, but who cares?"

Fair enough?

At what point? I care. I think the workers are being screwed over more now than in the last 50 years. It is a direct result of the loss of union jobs which were a counterpoint to low wages. They provided an escape from exploitation. They were an implicit threat, pay us, or we will go union. All gone now, and we see the result. Low wages, no job security, no benefits. People are numbers, to be shuffled around like they were years ago, but now we have the global shuffle, and there hangs a tale. Maybe when people have had enough, we will again hear the word union. Even among white collar workers. Make no mistake, no economy can exist without jobs, and if they think it can be done, we will have a welfare economy. A few supporting the many. We are on the way to that now.

[Edited 2013-09-13 20:25:37]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 10):
I have a relatively well-paid, white-collar job....but insofar as I am exhausted at the end of the day, I do kind of feel like I "work" for a living and am therefore a "worker." The idea that people who do manual labor are "workers" and those who work with their brains are not "workers" is highly offensive to me

I am happy for you, I admire your get up and go. I do not consider you a non-worker, nor would any one else I know. We in the union world worked with highly educated co- workers, engineers and such everyday. There was respect on both sides, for a job well done. This unreasoning hatred on here for unions is absurd, plus elsewhere. The system is broken now. You know the saying, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Truer words were never spoken, in all situations, even in labor relations.


The power has shifted too much to the corporations side. We are, and even you maybe suffering because of it. Overworked perhaps, who knows. One thing is clear, people who work now are much less happy than they were 30 years ago. I loved my job, hated to retire. I was union. My wife, management, ended up hating her job and retired early because of the pressure, the overwork, watching people shoved out the door, while younger people earning less money stayed. That is why they stayed, to cut expenses. time and loyalty meant nothing. I wish you luck.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2631 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 2550 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
Back in the day, when employers would scrimp on safety issues and such, unions had a place to protect their members. They are an anachronism now.

You have to be joking if you think that safety issues today are resolved and that it can be left up to the employer to do the right thing and protect their workers. There were 4,693 fatal work injuries in 2011 and 4,383 fatal work injuries recorded in the United States in 2012, according to results from the Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) conducted by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Unions work not only at the employer/employee level thru Health and Safety Committees to keep workers safe, but also unions work at the legislative level to see that laws and regulations that govern safety are put and kept in place.

Unions as an anachronism? Hardly!!!!


User currently offlinekric777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 2547 times:
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Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
That is why they stayed, to cut expenses. time and loyalty meant nothing. I wish you luck.

Not gonna argue anymore, my friend. We clearly have a fundamental disagreement with respect to unions, but at the end of the day, I feel like if we sat down over a round of beers, we would probably find that we agree on much more then we disagree. You're a working man, I'm a working man. Best wishes to you  


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (7 months 6 days ago) and read 2539 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 14):
Not gonna argue anymore, my friend. We clearly have a fundamental disagreement with respect to unions, but at the end of the day, I feel like if we sat down over a round of beers, we would probably find that we agree on much more then we disagree. You're a working man, I'm a working man. Best wishes to you

I could not agree more. I do it everyday when we go to the coffee shop, retired union, management guys, wealthy guys, we all sit down and shoot the shit. We solve all the worlds problems, and the next day start over again. We now realize we are basically all the same, just trying to survive. Age does that.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6995 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

Oh Unions. I think the airline industry has showed us how great they are for business. And in the public spectrum they help keep lazy, unqualified workers, and people who are just bad at their job at work. Google some of the police officers who have been fired, suspended or even arrested in Florida who continue to get their jobs back because of the unions.

When I was working at a corporate counsel office of a large company we had an union come into one of our facilities and spend over $800K in services for the heads of the union of only the regional chapter. $800k in luxury services, nothing was essential or towards business and it was for the heads of the union only, i. the region we are in. $800,000. Those guys represented workers who mostly made minimum wage. It was good business for us but wow were they screwing over the people they supposedly were put to help and protect. Why not give the $800,000 for something useful for them.

If unions actually took care of the good workers, if the union bosses were not in it for the money, then maybe they would be a good thing. Maybe.

Ask Chrysler and General Motors how great those unions are for them.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2471 times:

I love reading articles like this one that show how unions really are...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...-plans-drop-dead/?partner=yahootix

In it for the little guy...HA!



hit it and quit it
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1776 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
Of course it was, also the truth. Would one like to prove differently?

Have you paid JSTOR the $14 it costs to download a PDF of the study to confirm whether it holds water or not? Just because the study is published, it doesn't make it credible.

If in fact neither of us have actually read the study, I can disprove the findings so much as you can prove them.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
This unreasoning hatred on here for unions is absurd

Don't throw stones in glass houses, WarRI1. If I cared to dedicate a few minutes to it, I could easily pull up some of your more recent threads on the issue and pull out many, many comments you have made that hate on some (like myself) who are critical of unions.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
The power has shifted too much to the corporations side.

Corporations are about as self-aware as the bottle of Żywiec sitting next to my laptop right now. People make decisions under the name of a corporations, so "the power has shifted" to different people. Union workers have as much opportunity to be those people if they're willing to work for it. The obvious problem being that unions cover the asses of the people not willing to work for it, while the smaller segment of hardworking union guys are largely unrecognized because of the collective environment in which they operate.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
One thing is clear, people who work now are much less happy than they were 30 years ago. I loved my job, hated to retire. I was union. My wife, management, ended up hating her job and retired early because of the pressure, the overwork, watching people shoved out the door, while younger people earning less money stayed. That is why they stayed, to cut expenses. time and loyalty meant nothing. I wish you luck.

Your ability to paint everybody with same brush based on very narrow experiences is uncanny.

Anyway, for what it's worth, I've worked for 4 different companies in 4 different industries in 4 different functional areas of the business (all of which were "white collar") and only one was an unpleasant experience**. If I'm batting .750 in happiness at corporate jobs, the state of affairs these days can't be all that bad.

**I was working as an analyst for a major wealth management firm. I believe you said your wife worked for a bank. So there's a clear correlation there which seems to limit negative experience to the financial sector versus corporations as whole, hence my comment about you making sweeping statements.

Quoting flymia (Reply 16):
When I was working at a corporate counsel office of a large company we had an union come into one of our facilities and spend over $800K in services for the heads of the union of only the regional chapter. $800k in luxury services, nothing was essential or towards business and it was for the heads of the union only, i. the region we are in. $800,000. Those guys represented workers who mostly made minimum wage. It was good business for us but wow were they screwing over the people they supposedly were put to help and protect. Why not give the $800,000 for something useful for them.

I've tried telling the union crowd that the unions that represent them are corporations in themselves, often with similar levels of corruption, but they're willfully blind to that fact because the unions usually get them slight bumps in their pay. The whole "fighting for the little guy" thing is simply a means (read: opportunity) to an end (read: a paycheck) for union heads.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2631 posts, RR: 18
Reply 19, posted (7 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

The reality is that it's not the union's fault that American health care is so screwed up. It's the politicos who simply can't understand that a Universal Single-Pay system of healthcare works best, and is easiest to administer. You know, like 95% of 1st-World Countries have in place.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (7 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Why do unions fear right to work so much? Right to work doesn't ban unions, it just says they cannot force people to join. But, if unions are as important and beneficial as they believe themselves to be, it should be no issue for them since workers should be clamoring to join unions or unionize their workplaces, and businesses should be happy to have them since union workers are just better and worth more money. Nobody seems quite sure how, but that's what I'm told by pro-union people anyway.

If unions are worried about declining membership, they should focus on training and stop extorting uneconomical wages for their workers. Have a product to sell and sell it at a reasonable price, just like any other business.

Which brings me to my next point: maybe the type of unskilled labor commonly represented by unions is simply just worth less these days. There is far more competition for jobs these days, overseas or otherwise. If you look at almost any product, you'll see huge leaps in capability and huge drops in cost. Even in the 1980s, a TV with a 25 or so inch screen would cost over $500. A larger, modern LED TV costs considerably less than that even before accounting for inflation and is better at literally everything. So what about the worker? In what way is the high school educated (don't confuse "uneducated" with "unskilled," it is not the same thing), blue collar, American worker improved over his counterpart from sixty or eighty years ago? So you have a situation where there is more competition but not more suitability on the part of one of the competitors. It's no wonder wages have been stagnant or dropping, but it's not a conspiracy, it's economics.

And of course nobody seems to be able to talk about unions without mentioning "equality." Unions seem very interested in equality, which sounds like a good idea until you realize that not all workers are equal.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
What were the latest figures? 1% control 20% of the wealth, and 20% control 48% of the wealth now.

They made money, invested it, and made more money. That's not something to be resisted, that's something to be emulated.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
watching people shoved out the door, while younger people earning less money stayed.

Perhaps unions could learn a thing or two from this very dynamic.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 19):
It's the politicos who simply can't understand that a Universal Single-Pay system of healthcare works best, and is easiest to administer.

Yeah, nothing solves problems like a monopoly. Especially one run by the government.  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2384 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 16):
$800K in services for the heads of the union of only the regional chapter

Might I ask, where you got that info? Was it in wages? In benefits? Cars? travel? How many people are involved in those numbers? Did the union send you a copy? Anyone can throw a figure out there.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (7 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2376 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Have you paid JSTOR the $14 it costs to download a PDF of the study to confirm whether it holds water or not? Just because the study is published, it doesn't make it credible.

Anyone with their two feet firmly planted on the ground, and reads, watch's the news, stays informed when reports are made and then can deny that the worker is getting screwed over more every year and that the loss of unions in the private sector has not contributed greatly to this is naïve. Just look at what union representation has done for government workers. I rest my case.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
If in fact neither of us have actually read the study, I can disprove the findings so much as you can prove them.

Read my statement above.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Don't throw stones in glass houses, WarRI1. If I cared to dedicate a few minutes to it, I could easily pull up some of your more recent threads on the issue and pull out many, many comments you have made that hate on some (like myself) who are critical of unions.

I wish you would. Was I polite? Was I crude? Was I insulting to the point of being deleted? Did I lie? did I distort? did I spew hatred? Did I use personal attacks. Did I Use generalities, so as not to make personal attacks?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Your ability to paint everybody with same brush based on very narrow experiences is uncanny.

Over 40 years union, 30 of them a union official. Now how do I paint everyone with the same brush? I know that some on here support me, I know that many more do not. I have to accept that the charge of painting people is caused by unreasonable dislike of unions on here by a large number of people, many because of age most certainly have narrow, or no experience. What is yours if I maybe so bold? I have told you all what my reason is for liking unions, let us hear about all the experiences the union haters have.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (7 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Don't throw stones in glass houses, WarRI1. If I cared to dedicate a few minutes to it, I could easily pull up some of your more recent threads on the issue and pull out many, many comments you have made that hate on some (like myself) who are critical of unions.

I only made a quick search back. I do not see any comments in which I used any way out there comments to you, or others. I have been rather calm in fact as far as I can see. If anyone out there can find any, let me know. I try my best to avoid the dreaded deletion. I have bitten my lip many times.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8200 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2337 times:

It's a two way street. One the one hand, you have globalization. US factory workers don't have any bargaining power globally (or even against competing states). Nor do their employers.

The only workers who really have the power to get "rent" are govt workers. They are connected to government, and wield the power to tax their neighbors, and frankly take their homes away unless they get paid.

You can see what side of the debate I take. Organizing is a right, but not an exclusive one.

[Edited 2013-09-14 19:27:03]

User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6995 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (7 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2336 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
Might I ask, where you got that info? Was it in wages? In benefits? Cars? travel? How many people are involved in those numbers? Did the union send you a copy? Anyone can throw a figure out there

The union regional chapter spent $800k in services, this had nothing to do with wages, travel etc.. it was checks made out to the company I worked for. I would estimate around 50-70 people were involved in these expenses.
The reason is was privy to all that information was because this union also decided not to pay our company a fairly significant about of money that was due. Working in the general counsel office I was given the task to figure out exactly how much they owed, start negotiations to try to settle, and prepare the accounting staff involved for settlement negotiations with the union's general counsel. So I had just about all the information there was on what this regional chapter used and purchased. It was almost exclusively luxury items. I first thought it was for the national union which would make a bit more sense, still extravagent and for a very long time period but somewhat understandable. When I figured out it was only for the regional office. Wow, what a fraud IMO.

That's really all I can say about it because it was settled and never went to court. Beleive me or not, this is the exact thing I think about when I see unions now days. I'm sure not all are like this, but I am sure there are plenty which are too. I wish I could say more, and tell you exactly what union it was. But that would be unethical on my part.

[Edited 2013-09-14 22:37:14]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21085 posts, RR: 56
Reply 26, posted (7 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
For example, physicians do not have labor unions: Their labor is sufficiently valuable, because of their skills and training, that they can command a high income without organizing a corrupt, self-serving union.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Medical_Association

Technically not a union, but it does a lot of the things a union would do. Their lobbying efforts are extensive, and they're all designed at helping their members.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2690 posts, RR: 8
Reply 27, posted (7 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2306 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
A viewpoint on what has affected the American workers, all workers because of the decline of unions in the US.

How about blaming the unions for supporting Obamacare and illegal alien amnesty. Unions have a large part in the destruction of unions and the pay scale.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
My father was unionized in Western PA steel mills in the late 70's. He saw how they protected slackers and sub-standard workers while he busted his butt for essentially the same wage, and decided he could no longer be a part of it

It sucks having that protection and seniority for the slackers.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
It is a direct result of the loss of union jobs which were a counterpoint to low wages.

No the unions asking to be paid more than the market can hold caused that.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
They provided an escape from exploitation

By exploiting the people they supposedly saved from exploitation.

Quoting flymia (Reply 16):
. And in the public spectrum they help keep lazy, unqualified workers, and people who are just bad at their job at work.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
I've tried telling the union crowd that the unions that represent them are corporations in themselves, often with similar levels of corruption, but they're willfully blind to that fact because the unions usually get them slight bumps in their pay. The whole "fighting for the little guy" thing is simply a means (read: opportunity) to an end (read: a paycheck) for union heads

The truth...We work for two masters...the company and the union. One pays us and the other is like a leech....



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3115 posts, RR: 8
Reply 28, posted (7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
Just look at what union representation has done for government workers.

For me, a Federal employee from 1978 to 2008? Little to NOTHING!!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
I have told you all what my reason is for liking unions, let us hear about all the experiences the union haters have.

All around me...transit workers...teachers...sanitation...private sector.....ALL got bigger percentage increases than did my union. The only time we saw union officials was election time. They really only cared about reelection.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2631 posts, RR: 18
Reply 29, posted (7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 28):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
Just look at what union representation has done for government workers.

For me, a Federal employee from 1978 to 2008? Little to NOTHING!!
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 28):
All around me...transit workers...teachers...sanitation...private sector.....ALL got bigger percentage increases than did my union. The only time we saw union officials was election time. They really only cared about reelection.

So in 30 years, what did YOU do about it? Did you attend union meetings and voice your opinion? Did you run for elected union office yourself so that all of YOUR ideas could be put into play? OR..... Did you just sit back and let the union do what it wanted to do without your input, them moan and bitch about YOUR union? Remember, if you're not part of the solution, then you are (were) part of the problem.

I've worked all four sides of the employment situation..... Non-union employee, Unionized employee, Manager of Non-Unionized employees and Manager of Unionized employees. I'm presently working as a Manager of a unionized shop and have to administer a Collective Agreement of 550 pages. Let me tell you, it's not easy and from my perspective, sure there are clauses that I wonder how ANY sane person would put into that contract, never mind they were agreed to by both the company and the union. But like it or not, that's the give and take of the negotiating process.

There are good unions, bad unions, strong unions and weak unions.... just as there are strong companies and weak companies. Some companies choose to work WITH their union to achieve a great work environment, and some seem designed to be confrontational from the outset. But do I blame unionism for that, or blame an obstinate company? Frankly, it's both. Takes two to tango you know.

I've got Shop-Stewards who are an honest pleasure to work with, because they understand that while they have to represent their members rights under the contract, they also understand the business environment. And likewise, there are some Shop-Stewards that are confrontational from the outset, and long term all they do is harden any type of resolution to a problem into a win/lose situation, with no middle ground.

I've also got Supervisors that are completely inflexible or practical and try to enforce every single little nuance of the contract, often without any sort of fairness to those involved. They cause an untold number of grievances and cost to the company. But the real joy is the Supervisors that work WITH the employees, Shop-Stewards, and fairly and equitably administer the contract and make the place work. That's called LEADERSHIP, on both the Union and Management sides.

So all this union bashing just because they're union is really only a sop to someone who's life likely is/was pretty drab and took the easy way, coasting thru their career. Because a truly functional workplace takes lots of hard work, on both sides and from all parties.

'nuff said.


User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2561 posts, RR: 7
Reply 30, posted (7 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
For example, physicians do not have labor unions: Their labor is sufficiently valuable, because of their skills and training, that they can command a high income without organizing a corrupt, self-serving union.

Actually at the hospital I recently worked at, there WAS a physicians' union.
Best not to generalize, Sparky.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 31, posted (7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2191 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 25):
That's really all I can say about it because it was settled and never went to court. Beleive me or not, this is the exact thing I think about when I see unions now days. I'm sure not all are like this, but I am sure there are plenty which are too. I wish I could say more, and tell you exactly what union it was. But that would be unethical on my part.

I am not doubting your word. I am amazed that such a thing could happen these days. It sure sounds like everyone involved lived high off the hog. Was it because they thought the company was paying, and they squandered the money intentionally? I do not need an answer, if it is unethical. Just supposing, an intentional get back by the union. It is always easy to spend someone's money, especially while on expense's. Not very ethical, in my opinion.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 32, posted (7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
How about blaming the unions for supporting Obamacare and illegal alien amnesty. Unions have a large part in the destruction of unions and the pay scale.

I support the ACA. I do not support illegals, no way, no how. I do not agree, everything worked just fine until the Global Economy came along, we had jobs up the ass. Now everywhere but here.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
It sucks having that protection and seniority for the slackers.

Give me a break, slackers everywhere high, low down. I am sure you never goofed off, baloney if you deny.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
No the unions asking to be paid more than the market can hold caused that.

A ridiculous statement, contrary to the facts. CHEAP LABOR, exploitation of foreign workers. Easier than paying your fellow citizens a living wage. So much more enriching also.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
By exploiting the people they supposedly saved from exploitation.

If you are referring to me and millions of others, ridiculous. It did not hurt my family, my friends, my fellow union members, nor my net worth.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
The truth...We work for two masters...the company and the union. One pays us and the other is like a leech....

Such an statement can not be taken seriously.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 28):
For me, a Federal employee from 1978 to 2008? Little to NOTHING!!


It is certainly not the case here in R.I. All doing very well.


Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):I have told you all what my reason is for liking unions, let us hear about all the experiences the union haters have.



All around me...transit workers...teachers...sanitation...private sector.....ALL got bigger percentage increases than did my union. The only time we saw union officials was election time. They really only cared about reelection.

Those are the unions I was referring to. I did not know the Federal employee did so poorly. I was under the impression to hear the union bashers that Federal Employees were raking it in. I guess I watched Fox News too much  



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 34, posted (7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Quoting photopilot (Reply 29):
So all this union bashing just because they're union is really only a sop to someone who's life likely is/was pretty drab and took the easy way, coasting thru their career. Because a truly functional workplace takes lots of hard work, on both sides and from all parties.

'nuff said.

Amen Brother. I worked my ass off earning my money. I worked with construction crews on the job, they worked their asses off also. 15 minutes for coffee, and I mean 15 minutes. Back they went, same for lunch. Toe the line, or back to the union hall. The big outfits here, want union help. They want professional people. Too bad they moved all the manufacturing out of here, to go over there. There would be a ton of jobs, union and non-union.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 35, posted (7 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2174 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 30):
Actually at the hospital I recently worked at, there WAS a physicians' union.

I am so glad to see you point that out. Score one for honesty and reality.   



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2631 posts, RR: 18
Reply 36, posted (7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2160 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
Quoting kric777 (Reply 5):
My father was unionized in Western PA steel mills in the late 70's. He saw how they protected slackers and sub-standard workers while he busted his butt for essentially the same wage, and decided he could no longer be a part of it

It sucks having that protection and seniority for the slackers.

I've personally seen slackers and dead weight in BOTH union and non-union shops. There are people in all walks of life that do just the minimum necessary to keep off the boss's shit list, and not much more than that. And I've also seen bloody dedicated workers, both unionized and non-unionized who take pride in what they do, work to the best of their ability and give value for money to their employer.
Sure, in a non-unionized shop it's easier to fire someone, but under labour laws in most jurisdictions, you still need a valid reason besides you don't like them.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 37, posted (7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2160 times:

Quoting photopilot (Reply 36):
I've personally seen slackers and dead weight in BOTH union and non-union shops.

Nobody is saying there are not non-union slackers, because there are. The issue is that the union will always defend them at all costs and make it as difficult as possible for the employer to do anything about it.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 36):
And I've also seen bloody dedicated workers, both unionized and non-unionized who take pride in what they do, work to the best of their ability and give value for money to their employer.

Similarly, unions are governed largely by seniority so a worker who is dedicated and exceptionally skilled will still be held up behind those with more experience even if they are disinterested clock punchers when it comes time to determine raises and promotions.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 38, posted (7 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2152 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Nobody is saying there are not non-union slackers, because there are. The issue is that the union will always defend them at all costs and make it as difficult as possible for the employer to do anything about it.

I should know better, but when I read something so ridiculous, I cannot help myself. The Union takes your dues, the union is your agent, they cannot pick and choose who to protect, nor do they want to. It is a Union, a joining together. What damn part of that do you folks who have no job experience not understand? This BS from people who have no basis in reality by virtue of no work experience is ridiculous.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2631 posts, RR: 18
Reply 39, posted (7 months 4 days ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Nobody is saying there are not non-union slackers, because there are. The issue is that the union will always defend them at all costs and make it as difficult as possible for the employer to do anything about it.

No really.... I work in management in a unionized shop and I do discipline employees as necessary, though usually only as a last resort when coaching and mentoring fail to achieve the desired outcome. I see discipline as a failure to communicate and the last option, not the first. All a union contract really does is see to it that I follow the required steps of the process step-by-step, but as long as I do, I can exercise discipline up to and including dismissal from the company.

As to your spurious claim that a union will defend them at all costs, well that's true... but ONLY to an minimal extent. The union will see that I've followed the correct steps, and at any formal interview of an employee they have the right to have a Shop-Steward present. But that really doesn't worry me... because before I'll proceed with a major misconduct case, it does make me see that all MY facts and evidence is iron-clad. It actually makes me do a better job as a Manager because it forces me to keep emotion out of the equation. The days of the boss screaming "You're Fired" for the slightest reason simply aren't there. And in a large corporation that has been unionized for many years, there is all sorts of past precedence and arbitrator's decisions that form a base level of what can and cannot be done. So we have no need to re-argue stuff that has been adjudicated many times before.


User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (7 months 4 days ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
They did the research, they are educated people as far as I remember.

In the same vein as your asking folks to prove the article untrue, prove that the people are educated.

I am coming back into this thread late as I was away but I will accept the article at face value and believe that by in large it is true. However, one cannot deny that it was undeniably biased. My wife went to UGA Journalism School, home of the Peabody Award, and I know two journalism professors at the school and we have had discussions over the partisan biased nature of journalism that exists today. My point is that it is no longer unbiased news reporting, it is unabashed, one sided, proliferation of personal views, mostly of left leaning policies and viewpoints. That was the point of my post.

This part is more along the lines of the posts following my post. The unions decline, I personally believe, is that it has become out of touch with the common worker. It is seen as a mostly corrupt hierarchy that looks after the top brass only and continuing their power and paychecks. As Kric777 points out, the only winners from unions are unskilled, low information, less educated folks. If one has a skill that is in need or has spent the time to learn a skill that is valuable to an employer or consumer then that person can set his/her pay practically. Welders do not require massive amounts of education but do require skill to meet the welding standards of inspectors and regulations. The better a welder is and the more types of metal he can work with the more valuable his service is. If, and only if, unions stopped taking hefty dues and got out of politics would they garner the average workers respect again.



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 41, posted (7 months 4 days ago) and read 2132 times:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 40):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):They did the research, they are educated people as far as I remember.
In the same vein as your asking folks to prove the article untrue, prove that the people are educated.

They are Professors of Sociology at the University of Maryland and Washington. I have to think they are educated. Not as educated as some on here for sure, but educated non-the- less. Do you need a sworn document?



I will not even comment on the rest of the statement, the usual corporate, business, union hating rant.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5597 posts, RR: 19
Reply 42, posted (7 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
I should know better, but when I read something so ridiculous, I cannot help myself. The Union takes your dues, the union is your agent, they cannot pick and choose who to protect, nor do they want to. It is a Union, a joining together. What damn part of that do you folks who have no job experience not understand?

I usually do not agree with BMI's one-dimensional world of textbook capitalism but he's spot on in this regard. Work experince or lack thererof has nothing to do with it.
If the unions act this way and protect by default even those who deserve not to be protected and defend indefensible cases of poor job performance only because the slackers are fellow gang, err I mean union members defying any notion of fairness, decency ad common sense then do not be surprised there is so much dislike for the unions.
I am (not) surprised that for all the union kool-aid you are no longer able to see there is something wrong with such approach.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 41):
They are Professors of Sociology at the University of Maryland and Washington. I have to think they are educated.

Being educated does not prevent bias. Especially in a soft science like sociology where they can "prove" basically anything they want just by asking (or not asking) certain questions and interpreting them in a certain way... as opposed to hard sciences where Newton's law of gravitation will apply regardless of one's political preferences.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 43, posted (7 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2103 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
The Union takes your dues, the union is your agent, they cannot pick and choose who to protect, nor do they want to.

Well, that's just it: they don't choose whom to protect. They are missing an "if," as in "The union is your agent as long as you uphold our standards."

If unions want credibility they should not be protecting the slackers, they should be punishing the slackers before the employer can and doing everything they can to keep such people from getting in. That would keep stories like this from happening:
http://jalopnik.com/5967123/chrysler...caught-getting-stoned-during-lunch



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedeltadawg From United States of America, joined May 2006, 742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 44, posted (7 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 41):
Do you need a sworn document?

It would be nice to see the diplomas!   



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16934 posts, RR: 48
Reply 45, posted (7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

I know it's nice to think that union membership is the silver bullet to all that ills the economy, but it misses as much context as the unions-are-all- evil on the other side. The reality is that most of the union jobs have been lost to technology, and unions have yet to find a way to deal with the churn due to tech. How would unions undo the effects of the internet that have eviscerated travel agents and airport staff? Are unions prepared to handle the explosion in 3D printing with respect to manufacturing? What about the growing sharing economy, or things like Uber that are disruptive to well entrenched taxis? Until unions figure out how to leverage technology and grow with the churn rather than just trying ot stop it, they'll be left behind.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 150 posts, RR: 6
Reply 46, posted (7 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

I am in sales and have 3 local unions as clients. Occasionally, I will attend their board meetings when my company's contract is up for renewal or when I see an item on their upcoming agenda that I find interesting. What has become apparent to me over the past 10 years is that the survival of the union takes a priority to everything else. The salaries and benefits of the admin and leadership come first. A such, the larger union worker base they can create then the more $$ they are paid in bonuses or salary.

Their concern for the worker comes second, or third, or fourth depending on the goals of leadership.

This is why we are seeing unions attempting to start locals in McDonald's, Wal-Mart, Burger King, etc. The unions aren't really concerned with those minimum wage earners, they are concerned with growing the union membership and the dues associated with the growth.

Unions are a necessary evil in specific instances but for the most part they are a blood-sucking parasite relying upon the host for nourishment.

Flame away.



Samsonite, I was way off!
User currently offlinejohns624 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 865 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

There must be a reason that most airline pilots are union. They are all well educated and have a very marketable skill...

User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2690 posts, RR: 8
Reply 48, posted (7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
I support the ACA.

Which is anti union.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
Give me a break, slackers everywhere high, low down. I am sure you never goofed off, baloney if you deny

But slackers are more prevelant in union society. Protection really slows people down.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
A ridiculous statement, contrary to the facts. CHEAP LABOR, exploitation of foreign workers

Another country having a lower cost of living than us and paying their workers less is not exploitation.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
Easier than paying your fellow citizens a living wage. So much more enriching also.

What is a living wage? You keep raising the pay and you keep raising the cost of living which then makes you non-competitive to foreign labor.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
By exploiting the people they supposedly saved from exploitation.

If you are referring to me and millions of others, ridiculous

There are over 150 people working in the Teamsters management that make over 150K a year. It is a scam and we are the suckers.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 36):
I've personally seen slackers and dead weight in BOTH union and non-union shops.

In aviation maintenace in all my years there have been no slackers in the non union shops that kept their job.. But tons in the union ones. A far greater ratio.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
, the union is your agent, they cannot pick and choose who to protect,

When they protect slackers at the expense of the workers or those that follow the rules they are doing an injustice. When the union signs a contract they are stating that their workers will do X,Y and Z for work for the money being paid. They should not defend or protect workers who do not do their part.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 47):
There must be a reason that most airline pilots are union. They are all well educated and have a very marketable skill...

Pilots have a way different position compared to many other unions.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 49, posted (7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1947 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 42):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):

Rant on.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 44):

I am sure they are on the record. It would be stupid to claim falsely with the knowledge that the union haters are on the track, like hungry Wolves.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):

That has been the aim for 100 years, or more to unionize workers anywhere they could. To save them from exploitation so prevalent once again. No different than the mine workers and millions more.

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 46):

I never knew that, thanks for telling me.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 47):

Very good, they are in the union to protect themselves from the greedy airlines management, who would and has tried to screw them over, just like they try to screw anyone. It does not matter how skilled, how smart, how tons of them have served in our military to protect their greedy ass's.
  

Quoting windy95 (Reply 48):

Sometimes one can learn from someone's name. I will not go further, I dare not go further. I will once again bite my lip   

[Edited 2013-09-16 18:23:38]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 50, posted (7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1943 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 49):
Rant on.

The lack of any relevant answer or coherent rebuttal speaks volumes.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 49):
That has been the aim for 100 years, or more to unionize workers anywhere the could. To save them from exploitation so prevalent once again.

"We're coming to save you! All you need to do is give us some money and let us be in charge!"



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 51, posted (7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1929 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
The lack of any relevant answer or coherent rebuttal speaks volumes.

Let us see now, I and millions have worked 30,40,50, years. We have raised families, supported families. We have served in the military, many have died and been torn apart. We have suffered health problems, watched our families pass away from age and disease. We have given our time and money for many years to charities. We have fed the hungry, supported the handicapped, been on strikes to better our ourselves and our fellow citizens lives. We have run business's. We have worked on farms, in coal mines and every shit job there is.


We have paid taxes all our lives, worked hard until retirement, of which many cannot afford to do at any age. I must be careful with my words here. I share the experience of life long lived, so you can excuse me when I say. Come back in 40 years, if you survive, and them some of us still alive will listen to you. You will have earned it then. Sarcasm is not good for longevity, negativity can shorten ones life. I am happy with mine, I have been blessed. I worked and lived in a different age, a golden age in the US.


If some words are not answered, they may not be worthy of an answer. Think about it.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineairportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (7 months 3 days ago) and read 1908 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):

My parents raised 3 kids who are all out of the house, working good jobs, and they own various rental properties on a combined income of roughly 50-60K a year working in factories. And they did that for at least the last 35+ years that I know of without a union to cover them.

Your wishy washy story about working "shit jobs", paying taxes, BASICALLY LIVING LIFE, does not really move me. One iota.

So try again



hit it and quit it
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 53, posted (7 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
Let us see now, I and millions have worked 30,40,50, years.

So?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
We have raised families, supported families.

Point... Point... We're looking for a point...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
We have suffered health problems, watched our families pass away from age and disease.

...not here...

...ooh, this might be the point...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
We have given our time and money for many years to charities.

...or not, never mind...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
We have run business's. We have worked on farms, in coal mines and every shit job there is.

...well that's a lot to do and still save the world by joining a union...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
We have paid taxes all our lives, worked hard until retirement, of which many cannot afford to do at any age.

...how heroic...still not sure this is going anywhere...boy he sounds like a bitter old fart...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
I share the experience of life long lived, so you can excuse me when I say.

Oh, there it is. Clint Eastwood's an old guy too...wonder which one is less insane...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
You will have earned it then.

...wonder what other cool bonuses I get for breathing long enough?...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
I worked and lived in a different age, a golden age in the US.

...and the old man brings the hammer down...unless you look too hard at how things were...old guys don't always do well with reality...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
If some words are not answered, they may not be worthy of an answer. Think about it.

Hey, it's the point! So after all that, you don't have an answer or rebuttal. Nothing that resembles a rational thought, although it's touching that someone would use up a whole colostomy bag's worth of old man material on saying they have nothing to say.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16934 posts, RR: 48
Reply 54, posted (7 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1839 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 49):
That has been the aim for 100 years, or more to unionize workers anywhere they could.

Right, and it's not working, and mostly because techonology is killing them, and technology can have a hugely disproportionate effect on blue collar workers with limited educaiton and training. I think that, more than anything, is what has hollowed out the middle class.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2690 posts, RR: 8
Reply 55, posted (7 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1826 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 49):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 48):


Sometimes one can learn from someone's name. I will not go further, I dare not go further. I will once again bite my lip

Can you please give a coherent answer instead of just the usual leftist union talking point's

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
If some words are not answered, they may not be worthy of an answer. Think about it.

And your answers are not worthy of a response. Continue to hear the same thing from you in every thread.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
I worked and lived in a different age, a golden age in the US.

The golden age of unions fleecing large corporations and of the Democrats fleecing our social security funds. Your generation should be real proud.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3115 posts, RR: 8
Reply 56, posted (7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1818 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):
boy he sounds like a bitter old fart

And, boy, you sound like what comes out after a fart.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1806 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 56):
And, boy, you sound like what comes out after a fart.

Why?- for cogent arguments and rebuttals to feckless union banter?

Billions of people have done what WarRI listed without having been in, nor needing a union. (I didn't say unions were not always needed per se, but BMI has a point WarRI did not answer a simple direct question.)



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5392 posts, RR: 26
Reply 58, posted (7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

again, with the union discussion.

Whenever this topic, or one like it, arises, we have the usual litany of discussions, at all points of the compass, ranging from the rabid anti-union ("unions served their purpose, but their day is over"), to the virulent pro-union ("without a union, management will always screw you over"). As is so often the case, there are no absolutes, but it's a discussion worth having.

The article cited by the thread starter is certainly not one that merits meaningful attention (at least, not as it is written); it produces a series of conclusions, anchored by no facts or normalizing data. At best, the reporter is leaving out the substance of the research about which she is writing; at worst, the reporter is disregarding potentially fatal flaws in research and proof.

One need not be prounion or antiunion to agree that union membership is down over historical highs, or that some people make more money than others. The bare conclusion that, if these people were members of unions, they would make more money is certainly not supported by any presented data, and likely, with good cause; there is no rational basis to reach that conclusion in most areas of collective bargaining representation. There are, of course, exceptions.

There are, in fact, still some unions which actually try to actively support the industries in which their rank and file members work; these are painfully few in number, which is a shame, because there is much that a well – run union can do to improve business, for its members and for the people who put capital at risk, operate the business and write the paychecks. One of the greatest tragedies is that, in a number of industries, the people who own the businesses that hire the labor, themselves came up through the union system, and have traditionally been strong union supporters as business owners because of their natural affinity for the union system. The dramatic disconnect between union leadership (the guys in the ivory towers) and the people they purport to represent has arisen, in large measure, because the union leadership is more concerned about preserving their positions of power within the union and the prestige and wealth that accompany those positions of power. In this respect, I regard union leaders as being analogous to members of Congress, who may be elected with the best of intentions, but quickly become subsumed into the power-hungry, disconnected world of Washington.

It is particularly ironic that the authors apparently cite issues relating to wage disparity for minorities; those who know their union history well, know that one of the essential missions of many of the labor unions in their formative years (late 19th and early 20th centuries) was the systematic exclusion of minorities (principally, at that time, African-American) from the better-paying and higher-skilled trades, areas in which the minorities had found often-elusive success.

All that said, of course, there is much food for thought here, and for those who would contend there is no place for unions in the modern workplace I would ask this question: would you want to be an airline pilot in today's airline marketplace, without a union to protect you?

Carry on.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16934 posts, RR: 48
Reply 59, posted (7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 58):
would you want to be an airline pilot in today's airline marketplace, without a union to protect you?

With the bankruptcies, pay cuts, layoffs, and mergers, has it really made much of a difference?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5392 posts, RR: 26
Reply 60, posted (7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1769 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 59):

With the bankruptcies, pay cuts, layoffs, and mergers, has it really made much of a difference?

Good question.

My answer is, "yes," with certain qualifications.

We have seen pilots unions which have been (in my opinion) shortsighted in their approach to airline company management. It takes two to tango, of course, and I don't know that I can even then conclude that it would've made any difference in the ultimate outcome of the airline's business.

When an airline decides to charge a pilot with (for example) alcohol use, the union is there to ensure that the proper due process is afforded the pilot. They may or may not end up out - but at least someone is there as an advocate and counselor to the pilot, and pilots' unions have done much to salvage and, indeed, restore the careers of deserving pilots.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 61, posted (7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1733 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 55):
And your answers are not worthy of a response. Continue to hear the same thing from you in every thread.

But you did answer.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 56):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):boy he sounds like a bitter old fart
And, boy, you sound like what comes out after a fart.

Some are educated, some still have no class. He is obviously one of them.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 62, posted (7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1726 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 57):
Why?- for cogent arguments and rebuttals to feckless union banter?

The reply was correct, he has a problem. It was pointed out, he used a classless accusation. Obviously you have no problem with that. Guess what???



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 63, posted (7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 61):
Some are educated, some still have no class. He is obviously one of them.

It is impossible for a reasonable person to not ridicule many of the things you say and, unfortunately, appear to believe.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 64, posted (7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

Quoting sccutler (Reply 58):
It is particularly ironic that the authors apparently cite issues relating to wage disparity for minorities; those who know their union history well, know that one of the essential missions of many of the labor unions in their formative years (late 19th and early 20th centuries) was the systematic exclusion of minorities (principally, at that time, African-American) from the better-paying and higher-skilled trades, areas in which the minorities had found often-elusive success.

All that said, of course, there is much food for thought here, and for those who would contend there is no place for unions in the modern workplace I would ask this question: would you want to be an airline pilot in today's airline marketplace, without a union to protect you?

In 1935, less than 1 in 100 blacks were in a union when Roosevelt signed the Wagner Act. By the 70's, 40 % of union people were black. Also by that time, 1 in 4 black women were union, double the rate of white women. As I said before, that is what unions do. Organize exploited workers. After the era of racial prejudice, of which not only unions were guilty of, the unions reformed, much earlier than our Southern States did for sure. This article is out there. Some one prove it is not accurate. I will not even get into wage disparity.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 65, posted (7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):
It is impossible for a reasonable person to not ridicule many of the things you say and, unfortunately, appear to believe.



I taught my children to show respect also while I was raising them. You might consider a tour in our military. It will be good for you.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 66, posted (7 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

http://www.jakerosenfeld.net/index.html




http://www.popcenter.umd.edu/mprc-associates/kleykamp



Here are the home page links of the Co-writers of the article for which this thread is named. I remember some questioned their education, and qualifications. They seem qualified to me.

[Edited 2013-09-17 18:44:33]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 62):
The reply was correct, he has a problem. It was pointed out, he used a classless accusation. Obviously you have no problem with that. Guess what???

And this shows your complete lack of basic "debate" skill. I mean this isn't even some 6th grade L/D debate answer.

Do not suppose something I did not say. The fact is you did not answer the point nor give a counterpoint. A veiled attack at a poster (me) who actually did not even counter a point you made is sad and weak.

Just because you do not like the fact you were called on it doesn't make it any less so, and makes your skill at discussion seem more of a cut-and-paste of union talking points, or your own happy family tangents instead of the point at hand.

It was a simple set of points and questions put to you. Answer them, or bow out of the discussion.
Don't be afraid...I'm sure you can do it.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2690 posts, RR: 8
Reply 68, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1672 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 65):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 63):
It is impossible for a reasonable person to not ridicule many of the things you say and, unfortunately, appear to believe.



I taught my children to show respect also while I was raising them. You might consider a tour in our military. It will be good for you.

What would a tour in the military for him do to help you with your answers? Stating the obvious is not disrespectful.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1670 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 64):
In 1935, less than 1 in 100 blacks were in a union when Roosevelt signed the Wagner Act. By the 70's, 40 % of union people were black. Also by that time, 1 in 4 black women were union, double the rate of white women. As I said before, that is what unions do. Organize exploited workers. After the era of racial prejudice, of which not only unions were guilty of, the unions reformed, much earlier than our Southern States did for sure. This article is out there. Some one prove it is not accurate. I will not even get into wage disparity

You seem to be mixing discussions/points here. What you wrote about unions historically is mainly accurate. However what unions did two/three generations ago is different from what they are doing now, and what many posters are discussing.

Both American Political parties do similar things when discussing their history which is much different than their views today.
The history discussion is great mind you but not THAT relevant to what is happening now.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1669 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 65):
You might consider a tour in our military. It will be good for you.

I am vexed as to what that has to do with anything? Please expound upon that topic.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 71, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1668 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 67):
Just because you do not like the fact you were called on it doesn't make it any less so, and makes your skill at discussion seem more of a cut-and-paste of union talking points, or your own happy family tangents instead of the point at hand.

I could care less if someone calls me on anything. You will learn, I do not give a hoot as they say about whether I am a debater. What a laugh, now we have debate rules on here. This is not a formal debate, it is forum, look it up. Learn. You want to debate formally, go to school, college, and debate there.  



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 72, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1666 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 68):
What would a tour in the military for him do to help you with your answers? Stating the obvious is not disrespectful.

I do not need help with my answers, he might learn something in the military, such a s discipline, respect, maturity, honor. You do understand that, do you not?

[Edited 2013-09-17 19:45:23]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 73, posted (7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1662 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 70):
I am vexed as to what that has to do with anything? Please expound upon that topic.

See Reply 72. I need not explain further.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 74, posted (7 months 2 days ago) and read 1658 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 69):
You seem to be mixing discussions/points here. What you wrote about unions historically is mainly accurate. However what unions did two/three generations ago is different from what they are doing now, and what many posters are discussing.

Read reply 58. It was discussed there, about bigotry in unions way back. I pointed out bigotry did exist, but then blacks were accepted by unions. I gave the facts in the article which I most certainly believe to be accurate and on which this thread is based. One must read, not give a knee jerk reaction. I must plead guilty of that myself occasionally.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (7 months 2 days ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 71):
I could care less if someone calls me on anything. You will learn, I do not give a hoot as they say about whether I am a debater. What a laugh, now we have debate rules on here. This is not a formal debate, it is forum, look it up. Learn. You want to debate formally, go to school, college, and debate there.

Already did a couple times but thanks for the advice. It is a forum, which has its roots in sitting around debating a topic LOL
Don't be ignorant.

Stop trying to project and just answer the questions at hand, or admit you can't. Do not be a coward about it.

You are never to old to learn so I'd tell you to take your own advice.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (7 months 2 days ago) and read 1629 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 74):
Read reply 58. It was discussed there, about bigotry in unions way back. I pointed out bigotry did exist, but then blacks were accepted by unions. I gave the facts in the article which I most certainly believe to be accurate and on which this thread is based. One must read, not give a knee jerk reaction. I must plead guilty of that myself occasionally.

Who gave a knee-jerk reaction (you mean sccutler)? I might have missed it (truthfully, I'll re-read his post). (It certainly wasn't me-not saying you said it was me mind you).

Edit- Your mention of #58 and sccutler's remarks lead me to believe you are relating that back to him. Ok. but they are still two different issues, which are both fine for discussion but one should be careful not to mix the two as if past performance is any guarantee of future results. Unions being more diverse in the 60s and 70s (much like all of America was becoming mind you, though as you note the South was slow to follow) is little relevant to what union bosses are doing to help protect jobs today (just to mention a topic that was hit on above as one example).

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 72):
do not need help with my answers, he might learn something in the military, such a s discipline, respect, maturity, honor. You do understand that, do you not?

maybe, plenty of people join and leave with little knowledge of such things. I do not see how you can say he doesn't understand the concept when your own premise that one needs that is weak.


Oh And please spare me any "attacking" our military or I don't understand responses. I was an active military officer for years and still am in the reserves. While the majority of folks are great people, there are still plenty that have not picked up all the traits you describe. I even sat a courts martial for one at JB San Antonio last year. Veteran status has little to do with understanding how unions work (which I never actually commented on directly...)



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 77, posted (7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 65):
I taught my children to show respect also while I was raising them.

I cannot respect ideas that are wrong and those who cannot or will not make a case under direct questioning. The only rebuttal you seem to have is to inform everyone how classless you think I am. You are no better than a talking head on MSNBC or Fox.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 65):
You might consider a tour in our military. It will be good for you.

I disagree. Besides, since the military is nonunion or maybe just because it's the military, the pay is less than stellar. I doubt I'd even get drafted if that were ever reinstated.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 71):
You will learn, I do not give a hoot as they say about whether I am a debater.

So what the hell are you doing? You cannot or will not make an argument for any of what you believe to be true, but you still expect everyone to agree with you? And any time anyone points out how flawed your stance may be you just decide that you're too good to defend your point. If the answer is as obvious as you make it out to be you should have no problem making a solid and compelling case, but that has yet to happen.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 75):
Stop trying to project and just answer the questions at hand, or admit you can't. Do not be a coward about it.

You would expect better from someone with so much life experience, discipline, respect, maturity and honor wouldn't you?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

Christ, another Union thread.

Of course a union is just a cartel, and i thought lefties hated cartels.

I don't mind unions, provided they're voluntary and have no special privileges. The idea that you have a right to strike is preposterous though, if you don't go to work when it says you're meant to your employment contract, then the company should have the right to fire you.

Of course if the government stopped printing money all the time and giving it to the banks, the wealth gap might stop growing. But why attack the cause when you can just attack the symptoms?


User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3115 posts, RR: 8
Reply 79, posted (7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1558 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 57):
Why?- for cogent arguments and rebuttals to feckless union banter?

NO, because he made disparaging comments about someones age. As if I need to meet with your approval.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1539 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):
NO, because he made disparaging comments about someones age.

yes he did, no one disputes that and it is wrong. Several have done that on this thread.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):
As if I need to meet with your approval.

I could care less if you want my approval or not, it just makes you look weak and uninformed in your debate when you cannot put a good counter together without describing someone as feces.

As does your reply here; you seem to take too personally. Not a good way to make a point....



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 81, posted (7 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):
NO, because he made disparaging comments about someones age

You mean like this?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
This BS from people who have no basis in reality by virtue of no work experience is ridiculous.
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 51):
Let us see now, I and millions have worked 30,40,50, years.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinerwy04lga From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3115 posts, RR: 8
Reply 82, posted (7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1496 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 80):
I could care less

Correct form is 'couldn't care less'.

Flatulence...feces....same $h!t



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 83, posted (7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 75):
Already did a couple times but thanks for the advice. It is a forum, which has its roots in sitting around debating a topic LOL
Don't be ignorant.

Stop trying to project and just answer the questions at hand, or admit you can't. Do not be a coward about it.

You are never to old to learn so I'd tell you to take your own advice.

Baloney, debate that. You debate, I will discuss, as in a forum.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 84, posted (7 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1488 times:

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 76):
Oh And please spare me any "attacking" our military or I don't understand responses. I was an active military officer for years and still am in the reserves. While the majority of folks are great people, there are still plenty that have not picked up all the traits you describe. I even sat a courts martial for one at JB San Antonio last year. Veteran status has little to do with understanding how unions work (which I never actually commented on directly...)

Now I am confused reading your replies. Thanks for your service.

[Edited 2013-09-18 18:41:56]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFlyingSicilian From Italy, joined Mar 2009, 1170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1481 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 83):
Baloney, debate that. You debate, I will discuss, as in a forum.

So, again what gives; you can't answer a question, so you throw out words like baloney? If you don't want discussion about a topic that is fine, you can have a monologue with your views. But...this is a forum, why do you seem surprised when folks call you out on certain things or at least ask you for some form of "proof". And of course you have demanded proof from others in posts above.

I never even said you were wrong about certain things but a slight burden of proof or at least source is not unheard of in such opining. it is not personal.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 82):
Correct form is 'couldn't care less'.

You are most certainly correct. The typo was my mistake and mine alone.



Ciao Windjet mi manchi
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 86, posted (7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1484 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 53):
...how heroic...still not sure this is going anywhere...boy he sounds like a bitter old fart...[/quote




Your uncouth reference to age.



[quote=BMI727,reply=81]Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):This BS from people who have no basis in reality by virtue of no
work experience is ridiculous.




My reference to your lack of job experience, no reference to age whatsoever





Quoting

WarRI1 (Reply 51):Let us see now, I and millions have worked 30,40,50, years.

My reference to my own age, and millions more. You are full of bull, as you tend to be.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 87, posted (7 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1480 times:

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 79):
NO, because he made disparaging comments about someones age

Absolutely correct.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 80):
yes he did, no one disputes that and it is wrong

If one is so concerned with rules about debate, one should reprimand one who uses crudity and a lack of respect in that debate.

[Edited 2013-09-18 19:27:49]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 88, posted (7 months 13 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

http://www.providencejournal.com/opi...g-wealth-beats-shielding-greed.ece



Another article about the inequality of pay and greed in the US. It says that what we have here is unique to the US, skyrocketing Executive pay, because of corporate governance. The Old boys club. The insiders, greed, whatever you want to call it. The workers are getting screwed.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 89, posted (7 months 10 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 88):
http://www.providencejournal.com/opi...g-wealth-beats-shielding-greed.ece

Another article about the inequality of pay and greed in the US. It says that what we have here is unique to the US, skyrocketing Executive pay, because of corporate governance. The Old boys club. The insiders, greed, whatever you want to call it. The workers are getting screwed.

You really need to stop reading such drivel.

Everyone is greedy. Everyone is primarily interested in themselves. The main difference between a rich person and a poor person is the rich person usually has the drive and skill to be rich. It's nothing to do with levels of greed.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 90, posted (7 months 9 hours ago) and read 1387 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 89):
You really need to stop reading such drivel.

Everyone is greedy. Everyone is primarily interested in themselves. The main difference between a rich person and a poor person is the rich person usually has the drive and skill to be rich. It's nothing to do with levels of greed.

Gee, I did not know that? I guess because I am not greedy. I know some of course, everyone does. Are you one, so you judge everyone by your standard? I do have a problem with greed, my Mother taught me not to be. I think she was right. Greed is an evil human trait. One cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear, as you advocate. Look up the word greed, not an admirable trait to be admired.

[Edited 2013-09-19 11:09:01]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineRomeoBravo From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2013, 1112 posts, RR: 3
Reply 91, posted (7 months 9 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 90):
One cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear, as you advocate.

Sorry, where have i advocated this?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 90):
I do have a problem with greed

So you have a problem with humans then?

I have no problem with anyone trying to earn as much as they possibly can, provided they're not stealing of course. People generating wealth is good for everyone.


User currently offlinebhill From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 924 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (7 months 9 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

BMI in the military...hahahahahahahahahahahaha...he could NEVER be that selfless...about the draft...hell yes they would take you, even noob capitalists can pull a trigger....

Question is, would you be willing to give your life in defense of others and the freedoms you so RICHLY enjoy....



Carpe Pices
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 93, posted (7 months 4 hours ago) and read 1335 times:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 91):
Sorry, where have i advocated this?

Below, a blanket indictment of the human race. I do not agree, many are, and many are not. I am one of the are not"s.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 89):
Everyone is greedy. Everyone is primarily interested in themselves



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15459 posts, RR: 26
Reply 94, posted (7 months 3 hours ago) and read 1330 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 90):
I guess because I am not greedy.

Oh? Have you ever gone on strike? Because if you have you hurt your fellow workers, union or non-union. You hurt shareholders, who might be retired folks who need dividends to help their income. And you hurt customers who want or need products. But unions and their members don't care. They're willing to do all of that for a few more bucks per hour or a little extra time off. So who's greedy now?

It is exceptionally clear that, in your world, greed just means not giving you the cut you think you deserve.

Quoting bhill (Reply 92):
about the draft...hell yes they would take you, even noob capitalists can pull a trigger....

I highly doubt it. If push came to shove the government would probably decide that I'm more valuable as a civilian, which works because being a civilian is more valuable to me.

Quoting bhill (Reply 92):
Question is, would you be willing to give your life in defense of others and the freedoms you so RICHLY enjoy....

You'll find that it's been shown that even selfless acts are at a certain level selfish. Why would you die for your country? So your country, which includes your family, friends, and you if you survived, will continue on. Even among soldiers you have been on the front lines, you hear little about freedom and democracy and a lot about getting themselves and their buddies out alive while completing the mission so they can go home.

That's not to minimize what service members do, but the lofty goals many talk about have effectively little to do with it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 95, posted (7 months 3 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
I highly doubt it. If push came to shove the government would probably decide that I'm more valuable as a civilian, which works because being a civilian is more valuable to me.

Absolutely amazing, do you think that there are not enough engineers out there now? Maybe a stint in Combat Engineers will give you valuable experience which you lack. It will give you a dose of reality also.   

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:18:27]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8507 posts, RR: 10
Reply 96, posted (7 months 3 hours ago) and read 1318 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 94):
You'll find that it's been shown that even selfless acts are at a certain level selfish. Why would you die for your country? So your country, which includes your family, friends, and you if you survived, will continue on. Even among soldiers you have been on the front lines, you hear little about freedom and democracy and a lot about getting themselves and their buddies out alive while completing the mission so they can go home.

That's not to minimize what service members do, but the lofty goals many talk about have effectively little to do with it.

Your worldly experience and knowledge are amazing. Now you are setting yourself up as an expert about military people and their service. I served, in peacetime, no combat, yet I would not even consider making such a blanket statement about the motivations of soldiers. Remember, we have a volunteer military now, no draft, they must be highly motivated to join, and yes willing to die as many have to serve us, including you. Service members may be considered to be in a Union, a real strong one. The dues are many times very steep to belong to this Union..



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
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