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Shooting At Washington Navy Yard  
User currently offlinehomer71 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2241 posts, RR: 15
Posted (10 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

They are reporting multiple fatalities, possibly more than one shooter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...d1-7153ad47b549_story.html?hpid=z1



Prayers to all affected


"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
140 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3669 times:

12 dead apparently, pretty bad !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 3629 times:

One shooter is confirmed and is among the confirmed dead. There were two additional persons of interest and one of them has been cleared and one is still being sought. U.S. Capitol Police are out in force and have stepped up security at the Capitol and the Senate was scheduled to be in session today, but Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called off the session and the Capitol is now under lock down. Considering the building in question is a controlled access building, this means the shooter (or shooters) is likely someone that perhaps worked at that particular building. Now if they were members of the military or civilian contractors (possibly wearing military-style uniforms) is yet to be determined.

[Edited 2013-09-16 11:54:52]

User currently offlinejohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2575 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

Shooter (at least one) identified at Aaron Alexis, 34-year-old "military contractor" from Texas, per CNN.


Sounds kinda vague, what exactly would a military contractor be, to those more knowledgeable in these matters?


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7107 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Shooter identified. No word on the other possible subject. My guess is witnesses and security cameras showing another possible shooter or someone involved. Authorities are probably trying to find that person and confirm he isn't a subject. Will be interesting to see what happens with that the next few hours.

As for military contractor that can be anything from a computer specialist to the people working on construction of the buildings in Navy Yard. News is saying he had a military civilian ID. In all likely hood with an ID this guy never had his bags checked or any metal detectors. At least that's how it works at the facilities I have worked out. Of course to get that ID you need to have a fairly extensive background check. More than just a criminal history check.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5414 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting johnboy (Reply 3):
Sounds kinda vague, what exactly would a military contractor be, to those more knowledgeable in these matters?

A civilian employee, employed under contract to work on a government/military job.

Probably the best know example of this is Blackwater (now defunct and operating under a new name), it was a private company that employed civilians to do jobs for the government under contract.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently onlinethomil13FRA From Ireland, joined Jul 2010, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3485 times:
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Not again! Haven't there been enough such incidents in the US recently? Can't that country get a break for a change?
My thoughts are with the victims and their families. I hope they get all the support they need, and, more importantly, that no more people get shot today.      

Quoting johnboy (Reply 3):
Sounds kinda vague, what exactly would a military contractor be, to those more knowledgeable in these matters?

That can be all kinds of things, from janitors to accountants and even project managers or security personnel. The latter was my job from 2005 to 2006, when I worked at the US Army garrison in Hanau. Our job would basically be to check IDs and vehicles, make sure that nothing and nobody who was unwanted comes onto the base. In that function, we would carry firearms, which could, if those guys worked in security, explain where they got their weapons without causing suspicions. That could also explain the uniforms, though that can be brought onto the facility pretty easily.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7798 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3466 times:

Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 6):
In that function, we would carry firearms, which could, if those guys worked in security, explain where they got their weapons without causing suspicions. That could also explain the uniforms, though that can be brought onto the facility pretty easily.

In most of the bases I've been to it would be extremely easy to throw a bunch of stuff in the trunk. RIP to the victims and I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases... it's already a pain to get through during peak hours



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases... it's already a pain to get through during peak hours

Well then keep you fingers crossed, cause I reckon you can expect things to get a whole lot slower because of this, and so they should.

With some of the attitudes Ive seen discussed here, about guns and the US culture, these sorts of things a re going to continue to happen. So its probably fair to say, things are not going to be made easier now, especially at bases

Why is this occurring (as often as it does) in such an affluent country as America, and nobody seems to be able to do anything about it

RIP to the victims



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3389 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
With some of the attitudes Ive seen discussed here, about guns and the US culture, these sorts of things a re going to continue to happen. So its probably fair to say, things are not going to be made easier now, especially at bases

It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

RIP to all of those killed at the base and may the injured recover swift. It's a shame when these things happen. Hopefully they can find out what they missed and fix it so nothing like this ever happens again.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Why is this occurring (as often as it does) in such an affluent country as America, and nobody seems to be able to do anything about it

Because any attempts to strengthen gun laws tends to not change things too much, as new bans and new regulations don't necessarily take weapons off of the streets as in most cases, they are grandfathered in . Guns are readily available here via legal and illegal channels. Certain weapon types can be legally bought without any sort of background check in certain circumstances, like a private sale (unless state law requires one). Right now, I can call a relative of mine and say that I'm looking for a certain type of gun, in most cases, if he doesn't have one to sell to me, he knows someone that does.


User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

The Navy Yard's largely an administrative location. It's got the history buffs, the law buffs, the music buffs, and a lot of other HQ-type stuff. It's not like there are SEALs running around the place doing live-fire exercises. It's literally across the street from an active nightlife district and it's 4 blocks from a Major League Baseball stadium. The DOT is right there, too.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around.

I Understand that.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
Yes it was a contractor,

Working at a naval base. He also had, its now been discovered, a criminal ....

"The dead gunman at the scene has been identified as 34-year-old civilian contractor Aaron Alexis, originally from Fort Worth, Texas.

He was identified by photographic ID found on his body.

He is believed to have a criminal record there and to be a holder of a concealed carry weapon permit."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/washingt...-20130916-2tvij.html#ixzz2f5pho31C

So its probably not going to be out of the question that stronger/tighter measures will now have to happen. I presume this will generally effect most people on these types of facilities. No ?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 10):
Certain weapon types can be legally bought without any sort of background check in certain circumstances, like a private sale (unless state law requires one).

I don't really know what to say to that ?

This guy as it turns out, had a conceal to carry, even though he had a criminal record !

[Edited 2013-09-16 14:29:56]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Back duting the old cold war days the US and the British military in West b erlin used German civilian security personnel to do the boring tasks of guarding the installations (the French and Russians had conscripts to do the job).
As for the German security guards employed by the US Army (I grew up 500 metres away from a US Army barracks), they wore the 1970s style olive drab US Army uniforms, with a black MP style steel helmet and were armed with standard US military service weapons (e.g. at this time the M1911 Colt Government pistol or the M16A1 rifle). They were under the command of the military police and had their own rank structure up to sergeant.
The British army in West berlin had a similar system.

I remember an incident from the 1980s, when two German guards on night duty in the American elementary school in West Berlin fought out some personal conflict using their service weapons, leaving one of them dead (I think the conflict was about a woman). No children or other people were in the vicinity, since it happened in the middle of the night.

In the German military in the garrisons back home all weapons are locked away in the armoury unless the soldiers gets an order to draw them for duty. The only exception is in Afghanistan, where the soldiers have to carry at least a pistol all the time to defend themselves in case of Aghan soldiers or police officers on base turning renegade.

Jan


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7798 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

Um, have you ever been to a military base before?

I don't get why people think that there are people walking around with machine guns everywhere on military bases. Most bases only have base police or MPs which are like any other police department. Guns are very heavily regulated on military bases, and even on Army bases that have ranges, weapons are carefully monitored and ammo is only distributed on ranges. They are unloaded afterwards and a lot of times the weapons get checked back in. (Yes it's possible to smuggle out ammo but it's a far cry from soldiers strutting around locked and loaded ready to blast work place shooters away)

Edit: sorry if that sounded mean but it's a very incorrect view of a military base. I'm not sure what you were trying to say, are you saying that it's a military base so he could easily obtain an M-16 or whatever he used? Again, you must have never seen an arms room and how much of a pain it can be to check out a weapon when you actually need it. I'm 90% sure this was a personal weapon, I think they are saying it was an AR-15 style rife and although the Navy has those, not even the MAs use them that much. You aren't gonna find them laying around, and IDK how a contractor would get them

[Edited 2013-09-16 16:24:56]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5330 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3242 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases...


I just drove passed the local Air National Gaurd gate and it was backed up about 6 or 7 cars. Don't see that too often.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around.


Federal facilties tend to be gun free zones by statute. As I understand it, whether or not personnel are allowed to carry/keep on a military facility is up to the base commander. Generally, any faciity I've been to (and I haven't been to any in the last 10 years), the only folks allowed to be armed were the security folks.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 12):
This guy as it turns out, had a conceal to carry, even though he had a criminal record !


A criminal record does not disqualify someone from purchasing a firearm. A felony record does. Certain misdemeanors (those related to domestic violence) also disqualify a person from owning a firearm.

As for a CCW: states vary as to their requirements, but I suspect that most will follow the federal guidelines for firearms ownership. I assume this guy had a CCW from TX. They are more restrictive than federal government ownership guidelines.

[Edited 2013-09-16 16:44:56]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinezanl188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3497 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3224 times:
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Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons.

I've been on US military bases for the last 30 years. - only folks routinely carrying loaded weapons around are Security Forces. Only exception I'm aware of is for those handling or transporting large quantities of weapons - they'll be armed.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 15):
Federal facilties tend to be gun free zones by statute. As I understand it, whether or not personnel are allowed to carry/keep on a military facility is up to the base commander. Generally, any faciity I've been to (and I haven't been to any in the last 10 years), the only folks allowed to be armed were the security folks.

It's a PITA to have a personal weapon on base. You can transport it from the gate to the Security Forces armory for storage, and then back to the gate. That's it.



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User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3208 times:

So there are more guns and they're easier to get in the street that in a military base. Makes sense.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7798 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 15):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases...


I just drove passed the local Air National Gaurd gate and it was backed up about 6 or 7 cars. Don't see that too often.

Went through the gates on my base today twice, nothing different. I just hope we don't have to have our cars searched, go through metal detectors, etc



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2716 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3180 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
One shooter is confirmed and is among the confirmed dead.

Apparently, he rescued Sept 11 victims, and suffered from PTS

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 15):
A criminal record does not disqualify someone from purchasing a firearm. A felony record does. Certain misdemeanors (those related to domestic violence) also disqualify a person from owning a firearm.

Quote from the article.......

"The Seattle Police Department confirmed Alexis had been arrested in 2004 after shooting out the tyres of another man's vehicle in what Alexis had described to police was an anger-fuelled “blackout”. He said he had been present during "the tragic events of September 11, 2001" and described "how those events had disturbed him", according to the police report."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/washingt...-20130917-2tvsm.html#ixzz2f6a1NU00


And despite this record, he is still entitled to own and carry a gun      

What are you guys doing over there ?????



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13967 posts, RR: 63
Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3174 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
So there are more guns and they're easier to get in the street that in a military base. Makes sense.

We have fairly strict gun laws in Germany. It is in fact easier (and cheaper) to get an illegal black market gun (even those, which you would never get legally as a civilian, like fully automatic ones) than to jump through all the hoops and legalities of getting a gun permit. Police estimates that there are at least the same number of illegal guns in Germany as legal, registered ones.

The military are (except in a combat zone, where the soldiers might be attacked at any time and have to be ready to defend themselves on a moment´s notice) very strict about their weapons, ammunition, explosives and e.g. vehicles.
You will have your own, personal rifle, but it will be stored in the barracks armoury and you can only check it out for duty purposes with a written order by a superior of a certain level (it most likely has to be an officer, not just a corporal).

We didn´t have guns in the technical branch of the civil defense, where I served, but we used explosives for demolitions. Every cartridge (stick) of explosive and every package had a serial number, which was registered right from the factory. Every blasting cap and every cartridge had to be accounted for in a logbook. We kept our explosives in a bunker (actually two separate bunkers, one for the explosives and one for the detonators) under guard by the police. To draw explosives you needed a written order for which type and the amount you were to pick up, and this was only given for a certain demolition project.

Jan


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
And despite this record, he is still entitled to own and carry a gun

What are you guys doing over there ?????

The best I can tell he has only be involved with misdemeanors.
You can get in more trouble over a citation for "reckless driving"

It would take a felony to keep you from getting a CW permit.
Even a felony for that matter really does not indicate a propensity for violence. You can get a felony conviction for a lot of things other than a violent crime.

I thought right now is that he apparently had made some type of plans for this act. I am not really sure that he woke up this morning and decided to go shoot up the military base.
Hopefully they will find something he has written or left behind that will give some indication of what he was thinking.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Went through the gates on my base today twice, nothing different. I just hope we don't have to have our cars searched, go through metal detectors, etc

Drove by the gates at the military base that I have privileges and there was a line so they are apparently doing some additional checks and asking questions. However, there was not a line like after some other major events with metal detectors and dogs. They have had some events on base over the years when they have locked down the base, I got trapped on base when one of those happened. Had to wait about 4 hours for them to open the gates again to leave.

Okie


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5330 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3135 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
And despite this record, he is still entitled to own and carry a gun

Record means nothing when it comes to the law. Was he charged? Convicted of a felony? Felony, among a few other things, is the disqualifier.

His mental state is concerning, but had he ever been treated? Is there a record of treatment? Was he ever adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution?

It appears that he entered the Navy Reserves after the incident in Seattle. Did he exhibit any symptoms while in the service?

Apparently he held a recent security clearance. That means his background was investigated.

Alexis had a security clearance that was updated in July and was approved by military security service personnel, according to the Washington Post.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/washingt...30917-2tvsm.html#ixzz2f6mDcdfU



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 21):
The best I can tell he has only be involved with misdemeanors.
You can get in more trouble over a citation for "reckless driving"

Don't understand how someone who have shoot out other peoples tyres can be seen fit to carry.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
Don't understand how someone who have shoot out other peoples tyres can be seen fit to carry

IF incident did happen then apparently he was not convicted, we do not know if someone was in the car or if he was shooting at an unattended parked vehicle.
I am guessing the later, which would not be a felony necessarily and it could be just someone hyping up an incident.
I think right now we are getting a lot of media hype, those accusations could be someone jumping on the media hype wagon.

What ever the incident if it did indeed happen was it was not too serious or he would have not gotten security clearance or a CW permit.

Okie


25 Fr8mech : I would tend to agree. Did Seattle decide not to charge? Is the law for weapon's discharge in Seattle sufficient? Was he convicted of anything? Exact
26 Post contains images cmf : If you shoot at other peoples property* then you have demonstrated you do not possess the sound judgement required to carry loaded weapons in public.
27 Dreadnought : Actually I believe the Washington Navy Yard is a "gun free zone".
28 Fr8mech : The distinction is that one is probably a misdemeanor and the other a felony. One disqualifies someone from owning, much less carrying, a firearm the
29 TheCommodore : But surely he cant be regarded as competent to hold a gun license after shooting at someones tyres I would have thought that shooting at tyres is ser
30 Fr8mech : You're correct. It's my opinion that he probably should have been denied a clearance based on just the arrest (if he was arrested). Information and f
31 cmf : Just more examples of our laws being crazy.
32 Fr8mech : The laws are at odds with each other. 18USC922 says that someone who has been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to an institution can not o
33 flymia : Agreed. Hope there is not a knee jerk reaction to this requiring cleared personnel to go through security searches. Maybe we will know. It is still t
34 jetblueguy22 : Do they have MPs? Well the guy was also a former Naval reservist. He's been on bases for a while. Whether he should have been one in the first place
35 cmf : Pretty crazy if they don't, or?
36 Fr8mech : You'd be surprised. Access to firearms on a military installation is restricted. Add, that The Navy Yard is sits inside the city limits of a city tha
37 DeltaMD90 : The thing is, it almost wouldn't be a knee jerk reaction. They didn't do anything after the Ft Hood shooting, now this happens. I hope they don't sta
38 Bongodog1964 : Here we go again, as President Obama said in his speech, another US gun massacre. As he doesn't have the opprtunity to seek re election can he not sta
39 soon7x7 : It is not about guns...never is...It is about the emotional disposition of a nation. For too many reasons this country has been operating at the Lunat
40 Post contains links Slider : http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...on-alexis-navy-yard-shooter-567432 So ONCE again, we have a mentally deranged individual, with a prior record,
41 Post contains links IADCA : As far as I know, the only MPs or security personnel of any sort are the gate guards, perhaps plus a very few scattered around. I could be wrong - ha
42 flymia : The problem here is these stories are the only ones that get national and world wide attention. Thousands of people die from murder by guns every yea
43 cmf : Actually it is a lot about guns, especially attitude to guns. How can you address misuse of guns if you pretend guns isn't part of the issue? To fix
44 MD11Engineer : From what I´ve read on another site, the guy used another worker´s ID to get access to the facility (the other worker had recently been terminated,
45 MaverickM11 : It's never about guns. It's always about mental health, or video games, or not enough guns, or rap music, or video games (wait, did we use that one a
46 cmf : At least that is what NRA and CO. want us to believe.
47 Post contains links cmf : For those questioning the tyre shooting, http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2013/0...seattle-for-anger-fueled-shooting/ How can anyone defend that someone
48 Post contains images tugger : Correct, I agree that the government needs to do better. Like you I agree that we need better controls imposed via the government to ensure that only
49 flymia : Agreed. I think anyone who wants a gun should be able to have one and even carry one. But I do think that their should be some more checks before pur
50 soon7x7 : I would go as far to say that it is the failure of the American people to allow the government and its ridiculous policies to run amuck. When Mr. Put
51 AllegiantFlyer : I wonder how Republicans will get around it this time considering he passed a background check.... Its honestly really sad that children had to be kil
52 DeltaMD90 : I think they're saying that he shouldn't have passed the background check, which politics aside, I think we all can agree on
53 Post contains images TheCommodore : What is it about then ? What was the "thing" used for these killings ? And if you can't guarantee a persons mental health, then why on earth let them
54 windy95 : Correct. From what has been out there he should not of legally been sold a weapon. From shooting out tires to being treated by the military for menta
55 ER757 : These are contradictory statements - you say anyone who wants to own a gun should be able to have one, then say there should be more checks - what if
56 MaverickM11 : Oh yeah I forgot about that one, the "sick society" that's universal enough that everyone can shake their heads in agreement but it's nebulous enough
57 Fr8mech : Was he convicted of a felony? Really, I don't know, can someone point to a source that says he was convicted of a felony? What about being adjudicate
58 cmf : Let's put the blame where it belongs, the gun lobby with NRA at the front. It is they who have managed to prevent government from doing what needs to
59 TheCommodore : I was talking in the context of the latest killer, supposedly he was suffering from PTS, but yet still managed to have a licence ?
60 flymia : I guess the statement is confusing. What I mean is anyone should be able to have the oppertunity to purchase and even carry a gun, the same way anyon
61 Post contains links Dreadnought : That's the bugger in this case. Anti-gun nuts want stricter controls - i.e. let government decide who gets to have a gun or not, when they have clear
62 cmf : And the pro gun nuts keep insisting everything is hunky dory with the system as it is today. Yet the government failed..... Took a long time for the
63 windy95 : Or that pesky 2nd amendment. keeping the government from doing what needs to be done is a very scary statement. Yes he was allowed to purchase a Joe
64 flymia : Problem is D.C. is a gun free zone. You can't carry a weapon except in your home and even that is fairly new. There are many responsible government e
65 ltbewr : Once again a terrible mix of issues and circumstances, well discussed across the media as factors, led to a mass shooting with many dead in a place in
66 PhilBy : Not wishing to comment on the control part of this but how (outside the miltary) do you define having a real need for a firearm? Few people need to h
67 MD11Engineer : This is the big problrm. I don´t know if it is the same in the US as over here, but in Germany several infectious diseases have to be reported by th
68 Post contains images cmf : What about it? Seems you have forgotten how it starts and what the Supreme Court said about it. Only you guys are doing that. Why is it that you guys
69 soon7x7 : Yes, it most certainly is. I would believe with this event their exists much more behind the scenes than the general public is led to believe. Curren
70 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Weird, that's exactly the same amount of time it took the NRA and its gun manufacturing backers to turn Newton into a commercial to buy more guns! Wh
71 Fr8mech : Examples? And, he managed to get a security clearance after his actions in Seattle and Fort Worth. Again, I'm also interested in knowing which state
72 Post contains links cmf : A few things according to NRA, http://www.nrapublications.org/index.php/14593/presidents-column-32/ Are you unaware what is hiding behind those 30,00
73 Fr8mech : You will have to help me because what I got from that was pride in bringing the ownership of firearms out from under the rock that the left has been
74 ER757 : OK, that makes perfect sense and I am in agreement with you on the matter. Now, how do we make it happen? Any legislation aimed at controlling who ge
75 stealthz : Did he have(or need ) one? from my understanding his weapon was a shotgun until he took a handgun from the fallen officer. If he had one was it even
76 Fr8mech : I would like to add: that is exactly what The Left would have us believe; that with proper training and proper precautions, we can fornicate all we w
77 cmf : What does political left or right have to do with common sense? I guess that common sense disappear when left or right politics become how people loo
78 Fr8mech : Fair enough. How about this: Common sense says that criminals seek out the weak. Common sense says that criminals will do their damnedest not to enda
79 DeltaMD90 : Based off what I have heard, I'm actually leaning towards the cliche "it isn't a gun problem." Pardon my ignorance, but in most European countries, is
80 Fr8mech : Unless your form of gun control is no guns at all...or no loaded guns outside the home...as is DC's policy.
81 Slider : Exactly right. And in the case of this one as well as Ft Hood, it's the absolute NEGLIGENCE of government to weed out those who are known risks. This
82 Post contains links Fr8mech : See, this is what I want to know. This is why I want to know which agency issued the permit? This is why I want to know what Seattle PD did? What For
83 cmf : Hmm, how do you see this play out in the Washington Navy Yard shooting? He picked a place that is easily locked up so his options to get out were ver
84 Post contains images MD11Engineer : I own a replica American Civil War Sharps carbine in .54. This shootable weapon is a copy of one of the first practical breechloaders, but since it u
85 KBOS : You and me both.....I could have been escorting this guy around last month......
86 Fr8mech : He also picked a place where he knew there was a high probability that the only people armed were guards. We can also make the assumption that he kne
87 Post contains links cmf : Your common sense state he would pick a place without armed guards. Your common sense also stated he would not pick a place where he would be locked
88 Fr8mech : Unless that's where he wanted to make his point. Unless he didn't want to live after making his point. Yup. He picked this place for a reason. And, y
89 DeltaMD90 : As it should be... it says a well regulated militia after all. I think, at the very least, simple things like requiring firearms instruction, safe st
90 MD11Engineer : He picked a place where he knew that with killing an unsuspecting guard he would get access to a semi-auto handgun puls at least one magazine full of
91 Fr8mech : Yes, but The Supreme Court has found that the prefatory clause in no way influences the operative clause. That, in essence throws the regulation of a
92 tugger : From what I have read, he chose the gun because it was he could get immediately. He had wanted an AR-15 (if I remember correctly) but it would have t
93 Post contains images Fr8mech : You can get just about any shotgun immediately. If he chose a 2 shot, he did it for a reason. The reason could be as simple as price...though that re
94 Post contains images cmf : So you kicked out your points and used mine You're forgetting there were armed guards. But the answer is because there are less events this way. Then
95 Fr8mech : No, I didn't. He chose his location. Near as I can tell he picked a specific location. Did he do this because there was only one guard there or becau
96 Post contains links cmf : Correct, he didn't use your "common sense" rules. One killed. From where do you have he was alone? Yet you keep claiming they cause victims. Where is
97 Fr8mech : I make the assumption that there was only one guard in the area because: a)no other guard was killed n)he was not immediately killed by the other gua
98 MD11Engineer : According to the "International Herald Tribune" (a cooperation of the Washington Post and the New York Times sold outside the US), Alexis used a Remin
99 cmf : You expect them to have guards standing shoulder to shoulder? Of course it is in aggregate for an area. How can you expect anything else? You're chan
100 seb146 : So, it is not a "gun free zone" is it? By that logic, there are no weapons on a military base. Also, people only tell their health care provider what
101 MD11Engineer : According to the "International Herald Tribune" (a cooperation of the Washington Post and the New York Times sold outside the US), Alexis used a Remin
102 PhilBy : In the UK it's not difficult to get a shotgun license; Background checks, proficiency, check that you have an approved gun safe. After that getting a
103 Fr8mech : The 870 can be disassembled into 3 parts (stock, barrel and magazine cap) in about 30 seconds and reassembled in the same amount of time. The longest
104 cmf : You make really strange assumptions. Where did I say it shouldn't be enforced? It isn't as if the guards were there only to ask people to read signs.
105 Fr8mech : I don't make the assumption. Gun free zones are not enforced. Do you get searched when you enter a school? Was this person searched when he entered T
106 cmf : Yes you do make assumptions. You think that just because there isn't 100% search they are not enforced. But I agree there should be more enforcement.
107 flymia : Every school and university I have ever attended is a gun free zone. You know how many metal detectors or officers I have seen search people with for
108 cmf : Prove it.
109 TheCommodore : Wouldn't it be nice if you weren't searched..... I mean your just going to school ? Or your just going to,the Post Office ? Or your just going to the
110 Post contains links and images flymia : It is hard to prove something like that. It is obvious it is not enforced and if you don't believe me or if you don't see that yourself well I don't
111 Flighty : Haven't you heard? People believe statistics do not apply to them. So they things like, "I need a gun for my protection." Statistically, guns do not
112 cmf : Yet you guys keep insisting it is the absolute truth. You claim it is obvious but the logic you apply fail at both ends. 1) The only certain way to r
113 DeltaMD90 : I think the "gun free zone debate" is the wrong angle to look at it. You can't take this issue in a vacuum. There are a ton of things that affect gun
114 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Are guns no longer portable? I was under the impression they were small easily, carried and concealed items. Gun supporters loooooove to go right for
115 DeltaMD90 : I agree, but again, just the "number of guns" alone doesn't always give the whole picture. I'm sure there are countries with less guns than Switzerla
116 Fr8mech : But, doesn't the high rate of gun violence in Chicago and NY and Washington DC, all of which restrict the law-abiding citizen's access to firearms, a
117 cmf : No. If that was true then there would be a clear correlation between low gun ownership and high crime but that isn't the case. The only way you can m
118 Post contains links Mir : Good question. Why isn't the violence-related gun death rate of Louisville (8.7 per 100k) or Memphis (18.4) or Ft. Worth (5.4) as low as New York's (
119 Fr8mech : I said gun violence (and death), not just gun death. But, I tend to include all violent crime, including forcible rape...which Chicago, by the way, d
120 Mir : Not true. The Manchin bill that was voted down excluded not only transfers between family members (which I don't think should be excluded - family me
121 Post contains links Fr8mech : No: true. While the bill excluded transfers between spouse, parents and children, siblings and grandparents, it did not exclude uncles, aunts nor cou
122 Post contains links Mir : No, definitely true. Among the list of the exclusions: "(C) [transfers] between spouses, between parents or spouses of parents and their children or
123 D L X : Meanwhile, while you guys were bickering, this thing hit home for me. A close friend who I've known since she was a little girl, was at the Navy Yard
124 MaverickM11 : Soooo we should do nothing about anything that doesn't personally affect us? I'm not sure what you're proposing here other than some sort of meta han
125 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I'm sorry to hear that. It does seem like we often forget those who suffer when we get politics involved. Unfortunately, this seems like a pretty eas
126 Fr8mech : So, because I have no direct involvement, I can't speak to it? I grew up in the shadow of The World Trade Center; does that make me anymore qualified
127 D L X : I have no idea where that terrible leap of logic comes from. I really don't want to single out the people whose posts offended me, which also means I
128 cmf : With events like this happening multiple times per year that is natural. Sure details are different but the basic parts are not much different. That
129 Mir : I don't know how to prove you wrong, but I will say that while your first point is accurate - I have never been personally affected by gun violence (
130 Fr8mech : Yup, ATF Form 4473 , along with the records kept by FFL's function as a pseudo-database. It's a record of sale and it's a gun record, whenever a gun
131 Mir : You should be able to do that through the FFL forms. It would be better if it were, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. If the law were passed tod
132 Fr8mech : So, you're comfortable saying that after the NSA scandal? After the IRS scandal targeting specific political groups? After TSA, or was it HHS decided
133 Mir : Indeed I am. Property rights are pretty damn solid in this country. That, when combined with the 2nd Amendment and the strong defense of it that exis
134 Fr8mech : You have a lot more faith in this government than I do. What if Feinstein gets her way and gets an "assault weapons" (scary looking gun) ban? How is
135 cmf : No, registration is a step in holding gun owners responsible for their weapons. Considering how many weapons are lost and stolen each year it is clea
136 Mir : Let's say that does happen, and let's say it passes Supreme Court muster (which I doubt given the current court, but let's assume). Are you suggestin
137 Fr8mech : I'm suggesting that a registration would not pass constitutional muster. So, why waste the time, the money and the effort? I'll tell you why; because
138 cmf : Bull, it tells where the guns used in a crime came from. It means gun owners can't escape their responsibility when guns they failed to handle proper
139 Mir : It definitely would. A requirement to register does not in any way infringe on the right to possess. A treaty that relates only to cross-border trans
140 cmf : If he hadn't used "just" I would agree. That just ignores all the benefits and thus it means night and day.
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