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No, You Shut Down The Goverment.  
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Posted (7 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 7873 times:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/19/no-shut-down-government/



Who will hold the bag for shutting down the government with the American People? I feel the Republicans will, and I think the polls show it right now. A Pyrrhic Victory maybe for the Republicans?


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
308 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5266 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7813 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Who will hold the bag for shutting down the government with the American People? I feel the Republicans will, and I think the polls show it right now. A Pyrrhic Victory maybe for the Republicans?

Hey man, no compromise!

That's how you get things done!

Remember the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, 9-11, Obamacare, whatever.... never retreat!

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7794 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Hey man, no compromise!

Yup, that's what President Obama said.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I feel the Republicans will

Of course they will. The media will make sure they do.

Let's look at this, because, we have forgotten the process:

House passes a bill. In this case, CR that funds government without funding Obamacare.

The Senate passes a bill. Their version of a CR that funds the government including Obamacare.

What is supposed to happen next:

a)The President runs to the camera (with his teleprompter) and whines about the Republicans being inflexible

b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible

c)Speaker of the House Boehner (R-OH) runs to the media and says his work is done and he is waiting on The Senate

d)Both bills go to a conference committee where differences are worked out. The new bill is kicked back for consideration and then on to the presidential pen for a yea or a nay or it dies.

What happens if the actual constitutional process is followed and bill sits on the President's desk that de-funds Obamacare, yet funds the government...or God forbid, actually yields a budget? Who is to blame then?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5266 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7774 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
Yup, that's what President Obama said.

Actually, no. He has tried many times, but the entire focus is solely on attempt to get rid of the ACA. At what point does it stop? You can claim it because it has been pushed to this point over time but the compromises up to this point have been many.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7732 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Actually, no

"What I haven’t been willing to negotiate, and I will not negotiate, is on the debt ceiling."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...erview-with-george-stephanopoulos/

Well, I guess you're right...he didn't use the word compromise.. But, he's unwilling to negotiate. He wants a blank check...again.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13271 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7731 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):Yup, that's what President Obama said.
Actually, no

Actually, yes.

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
but the entire focus is solely on attempt to get rid of the ACA. At what point does it stop?

When it's gone, or de-funded.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8711 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (7 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7726 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Actually, no. He has tried many times

And every time he has "tried", it was basically on the condition that the GOP gives him everything he wants. I have no interest in a president who says he is willing to compromise to the teleprompter, but stonewalls when it's time to sit down and hammer out an agreement

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
but the entire focus is solely on attempt to get rid of the ACA.

Face it, the American people don't want Obamacare. In spite of hundreds of millions of (borderline-illegal) dollars that have been spent trying to hype it up, close to 60% of the population want Obamacare repealed completely or at least partially (even I'll admit there are a few good paragraphs in there). It's time to give it up.

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
You can claim it because it has been pushed to this point over time but the compromises up to this point have been many.

The only compromises involved with Obamacare was between the radical left-wing and the more moderate democrats. Obamacare was passed without a single GOP vote.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5266 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7680 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The only compromises involved with Obamacare was between the radical left-wing and the more moderate democrats. Obamacare was passed without a single GOP vote.

Correct and that is entirely on the GOP's head because no Republican could or would support or even work to negotiate on it. Anyone that did (and a brave few did try) were castigated and demonized by the conservative talk show hosts and others in their party. It was truly sad and drove the whole process to the left and it should not have been needed. The Republican and their media supporters caused the left movement.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6122 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7669 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
What happens if the actual constitutional process is followed and bill sits on the President's desk that de-funds Obamacare, yet funds the government...or God forbid, actually yields a budget? Who is to blame then?

It's still on the Republicans, or alternatively on the constitution they so love that allows a president from one party and a house from another party to be elected at the same time.

Obama was elected with Obamacare as a cornerstone of his platform, he passed it, and was reelected after that. Trying to get rid of it is not what the people want, obviously.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7644 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
It's still on the Republicans, or alternatively on the constitution they so love that allows a president from one party and a house from another party to be elected at the same time.

And, I would have expected no answer other than that from the left...even if a bipartisan bill was put in front of him. Even though, now that we've read it and passed it, the majority of Americans hate it.

The man is a petulant child.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineKBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 153 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (7 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 7624 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
Obama was elected with Obamacare as a cornerstone of his platform, he passed it, and was reelected after that. Trying to get rid of it is not what the people want, obviously.

Obama was elected because the opposing party's candidate ran a terrible campaign. He pandered to the right-wingers while abandoning his own moderate leanings. The 47% video didn't help either.



Samsonite, I was way off!
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7570 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Hey man, no compromise!


Absolutely, we will not compromise.



That's how you get things done!


Absolutely, we will get it done, help for the common man.




Remember the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, 9-11, Obamacare, whatever.... never retreat!

Absolutely, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Okinawa. Do we need to send in the Marines? Army and Navy?




You may have noticed, I never do on what is good for the people. Never surrender, take no prisoners. Oh my god, I sound like the Tea Party, shoot me, shoot me.   

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:04:30]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6950 posts, RR: 18
Reply 12, posted (7 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7565 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
Yup, that's what President Obama said.

THIS:

Obama is the one who wont budge. The Reps have always thrown around different ideas which Obama will not agree to.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
House passes a bill. In this case, CR that funds government without funding Obamacare.

The Senate passes a bill. Their version of a CR that funds the government including Obamacare.

Yes, that is exactly what will happen.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible

c)Speaker of the House Boehner (R-OH) runs to the media and says his work is done and he is waiting on The Senate

You are correct so far.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
What happens if the actual constitutional process is followed and bill sits on the President's desk that de-funds Obamacare, yet funds the government...or God forbid, actually yields a budget? Who is to blame then?

It will not happen, nor should it. Blame the Republicans, the party of NO.

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:19:59]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7542 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
You are correct so far

So, what you're telling me is that you'd be happy if Senate Majority Leader Reid (D-AZ) ignores the constitutional process and just sits on his hands.

Who is saying no then?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18712 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7536 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Obama is the one who wont budge.

When you try to "negotiate" by asking someone for something that you know they will not accept, whose fault is it?

The individual mandate is already going into effect. The exchanges are running. Healthcare providers and insurance companies have already started to implement new policies and procedures and even systems. It would be HORRIBLY damaging to the industry to delay it a year. It would cost an enormous amount in resources that would best be used on patient care to suddenly not just stop, but actually reverse course.

They are asking for something unrealistic and unacceptable and even the top GOP leaders have said so. And Mr. Cruz even said so today. When you ask for something unrealistic and unacceptable, it is not your opponent who is at fault.

I will point out one other thing: Mr. Obama has vowed not to negotiate, but he doesn't have to. It is clear that the Senate Democrats will not negotiate on this, either, because they know it's absurd. As one GOP aide said, the GOP can only defund ObamaCare if it passes in the Senate. If there is no plan to get it the defund passed in the Senate, and there isn't, then all the GOP has is a plan to shut down the government.

So it is not Mr. Obama who is being intransigent at all. It is the GOP who have informed the DNC that unless their demands are met, they will shut down the government. And they themselves have said so...explicitly.

So go ahead and defend them, because they agree with me.

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:45:44]

User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7528 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
When you try to "negotiate" by asking someone for something that you know they will not accept, whose fault is it?

The individual mandate is already going into effect. The exchanges are running. Healthcare providers and insurance companies have already started to implement new policies and procedures and even systems. It would be HORRIBLY damaging to the industry to delay it a year. It would cost an enormous amount in resources that would best be used on patient care to suddenly not just stop, but actually reverse course.

They are asking for something unrealistic and unacceptable and even the top GOP leaders have said so. When you ask for something unrealistic and unacceptable, it is not your opponent who is at fault.

I accept your Expert Opinion on this matter, who should know better? Not I. I agree 100%



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5099 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (7 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is clear that the Senate Democrats will not negotiate on this, either, because they know it's absurd.

Then, when, and if the House, passes a CR defunding Obamacare, let's see if Senator Reid and gang pass their own CR and let it go to conference.

Let's see what the conference committee kicks out. My guess is that Senator Reid won't let it get that far because it will force vulnerable Democratic Senators to reaffirm their vote for legislation that a growing number of Americans hate.

But, it's a lose/lose for the Republicans, because the lap-dog media will provide cover for the Obama/Reid cabal.

So many people have already been booted off their insurance...with so many more to come. What was it that President Obama said back when he was pushing this monstrosity?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away. Never leave your cave without your club.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2689 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7503 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 17):
because the lap-dog media will provide cover for the Obama/Reid cabal.

No. It will be a lose/lose for Republicans because they have made it so. If Americans truly wanted the ACA gone they would have voted in more Republicans to Congress and even elect Mitt Romney. The fact that they don't like it doesn't mean they don't want it. As a kid, when you had to take medicine for the cold, did you like the flavors? No, but it doesn't mean you don't want to feel better.

If Boehner himself has accepted the ACA as the law of the land back when it was upheld, then why is he continues to allow votes to repeal it? And I'm willing to bet that if the situation were the inverse, with Democrats threatening to shut down the government due to defense/war spending, the GOP would be up in arms calling them un-patriots.

But interesting to note how a law that's actually working should be repealed period.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12887 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7499 times:

Right now it is more like the WWE in the US Congress, phony fights for show to their bases to entertain us.
We have very deep issues and conflicts dividing citizens like the Grand Canyon.
We could have the USA government go into default on it's debt, which could trigger another Great Depression.
No one is really thinking about real cuts in the military, for wars or on tax deals for the rich and big corporations.
The Republicans are forgetting that voters like lower taxes but they hate cuts in government spending even more, especially as many more need government assistance (like with the cut SNAP programs). Remember what happened to the Republicans in the mid-1990's.
We have a health care system that is failing to help many millions and costs too much, the ACA was a giveaway to the insurance industry instead of really helping citizens.
I don't have any real answers, nor does the President and certainly all other politicians. I do expect some deal will be made to put off the needs for big changes, probably some delay in the individual mandates for Obamacare, keeps the military and Homeland (in)Security at full funding.


User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7496 times:

http://cbo.gov/publication/43090


Here is the link to the real CBO report on the ACA, not the scare tactics from the reports on Fox News. Try reading it, the real source of the information.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8558 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (7 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7488 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
But interesting to note how a law that's actually working should be repealed period.

And there in lies a story, the Republicans fear that most of all, that the ACA will work, and the credit once again for human based government will go to the Democrats. Horror of Horrors.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6122 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (7 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7412 times:

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 10):
Obama was elected because the opposing party's candidate ran a terrible campaign. He pandered to the right-wingers while abandoning his own moderate leanings. The 47% video didn't help either.

Same difference. People already don't expect much from politicians, for once one has done what he promised, why do some people expect him to go back and undo it ? I mean, I'm sure some conservative voters do think it's possible, but I'm pretty sure there aren't many GOP elected officials that believe that, they're just going along because they think it's what's needed to be reelected.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7402 times:

The right (read: the loud mouths that control the talking points) does not want compromise. Remember? Compromise? When Reagan and O'Neill compromised? Back when everyone met in the middle? That can not happen these days. That is a sign of weakness. That is a "liberal" thing to do. Only "liberals" compromise.

What I hope happens is: the far-right gets the government shut down and gets the blame for it. And, in 2014, pays the price! I want to see a center and center-left Congress elected in 2014 so we can get something done! I am sick and tired of McConnell and Boehner being the de-facto presidents of the United States.

"Obama never gets a budget in Congress!" says the far-right. Actually, he does. But, it never gets out of committee. Read the Constitution and fact check before you start in on the smear campaign.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13271 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (7 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7398 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
When you try to "negotiate" by asking someone for something that you know they will not accept, whose fault is it?

The very idea of negotiating is to start with your pie-in-the-sky wishes in hopes the other side will be willing to meet you somewhere less than that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Mr. Obama has vowed not to negotiate, but he doesn't have to.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is clear that the Senate Democrats will not negotiate on this, either

With these two statements you've proven that it's the President's fault (and his fellow Democrats) since they're drawing a line in the sand on this. (They won't say "red line" since we all know those don't mean much to this Administration anyway)



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
25 seb146 : We all know Boehner is so easy to compromise with /rolls eyes Remember his comment about "We got 99% of what we wanted" then was pissed off he didn't
26 DocLightning : So an airline should approach Boeing by proposing that Boeing pay them money to fly Boeing jets, rather than the other way around? That's the kind of
27 PhilBy : Unfortunately when, for the sake of soundbites, they've both drawn lines in the sand (i.e. cancel Obamacare, not cancel Obamacare) and polarised the
28 Fr8mech : So, what you're saying is that even if there is a bad law or bad process or bad whatever, we should continue to fund it (throw good money after bad)
29 Charles79 : Yes, and rightfully so. It is frustrating to see your own government being this dysfunctional but that is what the GOP party has brought us. They mad
30 Post contains images ImperialEagle : Yes. And whenever he says something you can be sure he will do nothing or do the opposite. The Unions aren't too thrilled with the idea either. The a
31 seb146 : They keep saying "Repeal Obamacare and let's get something better in". Well, how about you show us what your "better idea" is before you take away ou
32 DocLightning : You forget the bit where Boehner, McCain, and the rest of the GOP leadership already admitted it was their fault. So my opinion is worthless next to
33 type-rated : You are the first doctor I have heard saying they like Obamacare. That's a first. Most hate it. And what gets me is that a large segment of our popula
34 Post contains links PHLBOS : Not to nitpick here but Harry Reid's a US Senator from Nevada (NV) not Arizona (AZ). If you're referring to the last Government shutdown circa 1995-1
35 Fr8mech : I know: 2 Orthopedic surgeons 1 Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Specialist (works at the VA) 1 Psychiatrist 1 Family Practitioner and a gaggle o
36 Slider : Then what will happen is: e) Boehner will fold up like a cheap suit and crater as he always has to the Dems. f) The constitutionally oriented subset
37 Post contains links Revelation : That worked out pretty well - for the Mexicans! A short history of how we got here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequester_%282013%29 ) In particula
38 IADCA : Anyone want to bet against a proposition that (1) the House passes a budget without funding for the ACA,(2) the Senate passes a budget with funding fo
39 seb146 : That's funny because jobs have been being added for months now. Not taken away. The government is us. We the people. So, when you say that, you are s
40 photopilot : Would you care to provide ANY substantiation of this wildly outlandish statement. Preferably from some type of reputabele source besides Faux News!
41 WarRI1 : Ok, so why not give it a chance to fail? Why all this hysterical fear of the ACA? 41 votes. The definition of insanity once again." Doing the same th
42 WarRI1 : I could not agree more with you, and I am also an Independent voter, having split my vote many times. Who in their right mind would vote for these cl
43 WarRI1 : When you pile the logs on the track, you cause the wreck. They will be blamed for the shutdown. John McCain said today, the Senate will not vote for
44 RyanairGuru : I'd put good money on that, I think that you are probably spot on. According to this, and by my math, the Democrats actually proposed more cuts after
45 Aesma : Well apparently they wanted to lower taxes.
46 RyanairGuru : In which case we're back to Republican intransigence. If a desire to lower taxes - as opposed to keep them constant, not raise them - got in the way
47 seb146 : You just answered your own question. If Obama is for it, the right is against it.
48 PHX787 : Guys, I don't care how you put it, but Obamacare has got to go. It's not "affordable" at all. It's an absolute disaster waiting to happen.
49 einsteinboricua : Some states would beg to differ.
50 RyanairGuru : In which case draft an alternative package which can replace it. Going back to the status quo is simply not an issue. While some elements of society
51 FlyPNS1 : But they have nothing to go on the offensive with because they have nothing to replace Obamacare with. I'll admit that Obamacare is far from perfect,
52 tugger : Exactly, The Republican's are only offering ideas that they know President Obama or Democrats won't agree too/ And they have to because they excoriat
53 Post contains images einsteinboricua : What the "Kill the ACA" proponents remind me of is this: So, because something is broken or not to their liking, they'd rather get rid of it (not eve
54 RyanairGuru : * not an option by which I mean is implemented, you've got no chance of repealing it.[Edited 2013-09-21 16:27:11]
55 WarRI1 : Exactly, they have themselves out on a limb, they have done nothing but rip, tear, and rend this ACA. They cannot go back now, they cannot compromise
56 Boeing717200 : The part your missing is she didn't need this giant bureaucracy to get coverage. The only thing that really needed to be done is deregulate the indus
57 WarRI1 : I agree, let it ride, let it stand or fall on it's own. It can be changed, modified, just as SS and Medicare were, and most other laws. This maniacal
58 Fr8mech : Since when have we been able to eliminate an entitlement after people started to recieve the entitlement? Fix it? Let's see, how can it be fixed afte
59 WarRI1 : There we have it, the great fear once again, that it will work, and people will like it, and accept it as necessary to survive, just as we do SS and
60 WarRI1 : Is not that the way of politics? When are the Republicans going to learn? They are always the takers, and that is what costs them elections. There ar
61 Post contains links seb146 : How much does SS contribute to the deficit? If we get rid of Medicare and let people die, can we please get rid of medical and retirement entitlement
62 MSPNWA : It wasn't that long ago during the gun control debate that the President and its supporters were enamored over polls that said the majority of America
63 seb146 : Have you listened to the Tea Party recently? They want to get rid of government. Our government is "of the people, for the people, by the people." So
64 RyanairGuru : To be fair, no politician has a monopoly on twisting polls to support their agenda. Both sides do it. There's statistics and damn lies, and all that.
65 seb146 : Right. They got all up in Pelosi's grill about "let's just pass it and see..." but they refuse to replace ACA with anything at all. The right just wa
66 Post contains images Revelation : "The Party of No" is also the "Party of Fear" if not the "Party of the Apocylapse". Hysterical fear is a big part of their DNA. Driving towards shutt
67 Boeing717200 : There was never an opportunity for sensible debate. That's another myth. Hell, people admittedly didn't even bother to read the damn bill before they
68 DocLightning : Most bills are boiler plate full of double-negatives and other legalese meant to precisely define laws and rules. What is important is that they have
69 WarRI1 : Ho, Ho! that is a laugh, we all know who the party of fear and no is. That was answered in the November election. Remember the 47% statement? We did
70 RyanairGuru : For clarity, that was only half of my statement, but... ...I agree 100% There has been so much hysteria and conjecture from day 1 that most people do
71 casinterest : The GOP will hold the bag, but the real fear the GOP leadership has is that if implemented, their constituents may really wonder what the big deal wa
72 seb146 : Where are the jobs? The right promised us jobs. So far, we have been met with how many votes to de-fund ACA, hearings ad nauseum over Benghazi, votes
73 Post contains links and images Revelation : From http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/toles
74 Aesma : Yeah, 4 years on one issue, it's pretty impressive. Here when a law is really unpopular we have millions in the streets protesting week after week, fo
75 pu : non-"Single-payer medical" = ... many millions of working Americans PAY for their health insurance through salary deductions, which goes to pay for no
76 usflyer msp : Ted Cruz is an grandstanding absolute idiot. What a waste of time. He has officially replaced Joel Osteen as my least favourite person from Texas. Oh
77 Post contains links RyanairGuru : http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...5d-5b7f66349852_story.html?hpid=z2 I've always liked Dana Milbank, he writes a lot of sense: Democrats, of cour
78 Revelation : Which current GOP Senator said the following just yesterday? I would have guessed none would be capable of uttering such a statement these days...
79 WarRI1 : I would like to know who had the courage, and the smarts in the Republican Party these days to say such a thing. The amazing thing is that it is the
80 einsteinboricua : Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) Just a moment of moderation in his party, just like John McCain's statement reminding his colleagues that a debate was held w
81 Post contains links RyanairGuru : Sen Orrin Hatch (R-UT) It looks like the crisis might be passing, albeit for now ... it looks like the House GOP leadership are prepared to take out
82 WarRI1 : Yes, just a moment and that is a sad thing in this country of Democracy. Of course, we cannot have a functioning congress, if we did, we might get so
83 Revelation : Which is an even worse loser than the defunding move. Polls are showing that regardless of the popularity of the ACA that the public does NOT like th
84 RomeoBravo : Shut down the government? Now there's something i'd vote for.
85 WarRI1 : Why does that not surprise me. Might I ask, what government? You show United Kingdom, and you advocate shutting down a government? Our government, Gr
86 GDB : Yes, but you'd not want to live in Somalia would you? A wish of a spoiled westerner who has no inkling that being born the developed world with all t
87 Post contains images WarRI1 : Amen brother from across the pond. Once in awhile on here, I can see why we are good friends with Great Britain.
88 RomeoBravo : The government and gangsters are really on the same spectrum. Stalin was a gangster. Some slightly more savy gang leaders use the electorate to legit
89 Post contains links RyanairGuru : Spoke too soon! Republican hard-liners block strategy to avoid federal government shutdown http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...-11e3-b75d-5b7f6634
90 tugger : Personally I am at the point now where I am OK with the Republican's shutting down the government. I have accepted it as inevitable. I know it needs
91 GDB : I still don't think you get it, at all. Maybe you should should meet some survivors of Stalin's terror and get some perspective. Have no money? Compa
92 RomeoBravo : Not sure why you deem it necessary to suggest i am ungrateful to be brought up in a richer part of the world. It's really just a difference in opinio
93 seb146 : Which would be? It was the government who deregulated the financial sector and that gave the banks leeway to do what they wanted. You say it was all
94 RomeoBravo : Reckless monetary policies by central banks of course. All in a foolish attempt to suppress the .com bursting. Amusingly we are now setting ourselves
95 GDB : That's a bit like saying Neville Chamberlin invaded Poland in 1939. Erm, no. It was 1929 all over again, just this time in a more connected world. I
96 par13del : A couple items. We are told the debt ceiling is no big deal, yet everyone is taught in schools that we have a debt limit and when you go to borrow you
97 ltbewr : The shutdown will seriously affect everyone in some way. Each day of the shutdown means less money in circulation as workers are not paid. In turn gov
98 seb146 : So, this is a black-and-white issue? There is no middle ground? There are no other options? As a parallel, Obama threatened to bomb Syria. That was O
99 RomeoBravo : The government actively encouraged them. If you understand how the central banking system works --> Central bank lends newly created money to comm
100 par13del : What, based on the last fight, we are still waiting for the sky to fall when the sequester kicks in, how exactly does one get past the rhetoric if no
101 GDB : True. And it was almost an across the board political consensus - given that the then opposition Tories were if anything for even more de-regulation,
102 RomeoBravo : Again not to do with regulations. To do with an expansive monetary policy. Expanding the money supply makes bad loans look good, so i fail to see wha
103 Aesma : Ever heard of Airbus ?
104 par13del : I guess I should have been more specific, in Europe government does get involved in business much more than in the US, the last business I think they
105 seb146 : The last time this happened, Boehner whined and complained that Obama was unwilling to compromise while, at the same time, saying he got 99% of what
106 par13del : So all sides simply follow each other, and you wonder why the gridlock exist. Obama has now taken a page from the Tea Party with a no compromise stan
107 casinterest : No the health care tax will not be a target, because the GOP is going to come around to the general realization that it makes things cheaper for the
108 par13del : Some folks do think the Supreme Court was wrong to legalize a portion as a tax, so they are not alone. So, they have never been able to lower the tax
109 casinterest : But it makes sense, and it makes sense especially in the light that any other effort to get healthcare under control would involve a tax. We are all
110 seb146 : Good. That is how they should have been from the start. I heard someone once say Ried is using Marquis of Queensbury rules at a bar fight. Funny how
111 PHX787 : I hope you all realize business = jobs?
112 par13del : Meaning what, too many loopholes, exemptions or politicians catering to their constituents and ensuring that the taxes paid are low? The size of the
113 RyanairGuru : I'm going to go ahead and repost what I have just posted on FB in response to somebody who linked an article on my wall: 20 hours is a very long time
114 par13del : I also believe that too many people are giving Boehner credit and power that he does not have, the representatives did not agree to abandon their con
115 planemaker : Not anymore with off-shoring and automation.
116 casinterest : Yes Don't start with 5 years. The issue that happened over the last 5 years was built by policy. A lot of it was directly related to dealing with wha
117 PHX787 : They said the same thing when the spinning wheel and the assembly lines were invented....you know what industries did? they adapted. They kept adapti
118 par13del : Quite agree, I mentioned 5 years because I did not want it to look as if this issue just started since Obama or the Democrats took over the White Hou
119 GDB : Well yes, cheap and easy credit. No false 'boom' is complete without it. There used to be regulations for that too. Interestingly, the great monetari
120 RomeoBravo : The government regulated itself?!
121 seb146 : Because corporations find cheap labor off shore and found ways to replace humans so they don't have to pay their salaries. It's not that we workers h
122 Ken777 : Well, the Senate has just turned down the House Bill (big surprise) so it's no in the ands of the House Speaker - yet again. No wonder we've had out c
123 okie : The last time there was a threat of a shut down and we got the sequester cuts was the start of the economic recovery. Exciting times a head I would s
124 Post contains images par13del : Well in some quarters, they are only there because of the Tea Party, so are they being loyal?????? Hmmmmmmm, makes you wonder, must be Tea Party supp
125 Post contains images flyingturtle : Philippines and Bataan. And just a little time ago, my laptop has shut down without warning. -- Really, it's scary. I wonder what the Tea Party is up
126 casinterest : We've already been in a recovery. The GOP is threatening to end it or delay it on policy issues that have already been put into law, upheld by the Su
127 tugger : We aren't even there yet. Just wait until we get to THAT discussion..... oh joy. Tugg
128 par13del : So the legislators who did away with regulations which made the GFC possible did not also contribute to companies waking up one day and saying hey, l
129 okie : Unfortunately the total lack of accountability of the Senate not producing a budget for the last 5 years and relying on continuing resolutions to fun
130 DTW2HYD : Congress want every one in US to go to bed and live coverage to stop. Sometime between 3AM-5AM EDT on October 1, House votes on clean one and go back
131 2707200X : The Republicans know they are going to be blamed. R-CA Nunes according to HP made a nasty comparison about "lemmings" not to be repeated here. America
132 WarRI1 : Are we to take from your reply that the Senate alone is responsible for this mess? I guess it is because the Democrats have the majority. I guess a R
133 okie : Legally the Senate is required to generate a budget by March/April of each year. They have not done so for the last 5 years. They prefer to use conti
134 WarRI1 : Just about the time of the great recession it seems, do you think that may have something to do with the screwed up finances of this country? Do you
135 Post contains images flyingturtle : It's 5:26 here in Switzerland and I watch in amazement. I can't help but think of the duel at the end of "For a Few Dollars More". I only recently lea
136 RyanairGuru : So it's over... I still stand by my comment in #113; had Boehner put the Senate plan (i.e. his without the ACA component) to a House vote then it woul
137 seb146 : ALL spending bills MUST originate in the House. The Senate can propose a budget and the President can propose a budget, but it MUST come from the Hou
138 Philby : Now what was that line of Obama's? 'We live in the greatest nation in the history of the earth. Join with me as we try to change it' - presumably int
139 seb146 : Helping heal everyone is a bad thing, I guess. The right says no to anything and everything a Democrat proposes. But, it is all Obama and the Democra
140 Philby : I point out that I stated that BOTH sides seem to be playing the game. Obviously over here I'm more isolated from some of the finer details but they
141 par13del : So you believe that one man - House Speaker - is responsible for all this??? Like you I wish he had sent it to a vote, my money was on it not passing
142 DTW2HYD : It doesn't work that way. They have to be loyal to their political contributors. Let's say in current scenario lobbyists from Medical Equipment Manuf
143 RussianJet : Is it naive to say that this sort of crisis should/could be resolved with a referendum? Is there much history of referenda in the US?
144 Post contains images par13del : To be fair, the Democratic Party is the largest party and has been in control of the various Houses much longer than the Republicans, so the trillion
145 PPVRA : So the Federal government shut down, and I am watching a bit of CNN right now. The biggest thing they have to talk about right now is the closure of n
146 par13del : Interesting to contrast this to Europe, for example in Greece when the public service unions call demonstrations / strikes etc. the Federal governmen
147 casinterest : The entitlement programs which people pay into by the way. .... And never mind the massive Defense budget. It's good to see you don't care about the
148 kiwirob : What about the 700,000 people who were sent home without pay for as long as it takes to sort this out, those people have bills to pays and lives to l
149 PPVRA : All the talk about incalculable economic damage and the stock market will tank. . . stock markets are up. Right, what about all the economic damage fe
150 mad99 : Didn't this happen about a year ago?
151 RussianJet : Actually that's exactly what does happen for hundreds of thousands of people. These people won't get paid, won't have any means of paying for their h
152 casinterest : We have a Federal Governement for a reason. To represent this country and make laws. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. However when the Government decid
153 Boeing717200 : Were it not for Obamacare the House would still be controlled by the Democrats, they knew Americans didn't want it (America was screaming at them) an
154 casinterest : if that were true, the senate already would have flipped and the Presidential election in 2012 would have gone the other way. The only reason the GOP
155 MSPNWA : Correct, the blame falls wholly on the party that simply will not negotiate or compromise. Basic logic. It's embarrassing how the Senate and Presiden
156 D L X : Baloney. The blame falls on the party that took a perfectly fine budget and held it up because they didn't get their way.
157 PPVRA : Don't be a drama queen. These people are not losing their cushy government jobs, they will be back in no time and they know it. It takes two to tango
158 seb146 : Yes. Democrats have, historically, been willing to compromise. Again: Spending bills begin in the House where they must pass, then on to the Senate w
159 casinterest : [quote=PPVRA,reply=157]It takes two to tango, buddy. Your President apparently is in "no mood" to negotiate and put an end to the so-called "misery" a
160 casinterest : Basic Logic, there is no negotiating with folks that vote to defund 42 times and still don't get it passed.
161 na : How stupid are those people blocking the budget? Those people allowed Bush to spend hundreds of billions in stupid wars but act as foolsas they want
162 IADCA : OK, please take a step back and think about a couple things. First, these people are not getting paid right now. They have no money coming in at all,
163 Post contains images RussianJet : For starters, there's no guarantee they'll be back quickly. In any case, even a week or two can have a severe impact on the monthly finances. Secondl
164 osubuckeyes : There is definitely a huge problem with US foreign policy interests that are affected adversely with a government shutdown. Many of these problems do
165 tugger : Exactly what are the compromises being offered? What are the negotiation points? How are they recommending to fix the issues that concern them with t
166 Boeing717200 : Just because one house didn't flip doesn't mean the tectonic shift in the other house didn't a very loud and clear message about the subject matter.
167 Post contains links Ken777 : It's easy to put the blame on "high taxes" as long as you ignore the thousands of pages in the tax code that brought the actual liability down. The m
168 casinterest : I am not kidding myself. It is called an Election. One of the principles upon which this country was founded upon, and which the tea party claims to
169 Post contains links LittleFokker : http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...-plus-one-reason-why-theyre-gonna/ A "fox" in the henhouse, perhaps? I had to do a doubletake to see that Fox a
170 Boeing717200 : So you can explain that to a couple of my siblings who have just been kicked to the exchange that gives them less coverage than they had at greater o
171 IADCA : Where did their prior coverage come from?
172 casinterest : That would be a business decision, and have your siblings actually gone to the exchanges today to see what their cost and subsidies would be . I ran
173 Boeing717200 : What does it matter? The monthly premiums are about 5% higher (but have shot up about 40% in the last couple of years) but the killer is the deductib
174 casinterest : How does he know his premiums if the exchanges just opened today?
175 Boeing717200 : Are you under a rock? You've been able to check out premiums in most states for some time.
176 tugger : So in other words you either don't know of any compromise that has been offered or in fact none has been offered. OK. Good try at deflection though..
177 IADCA : Dude, I'm not making any political point at all. I asked you a seven-word question, and you assume I'm trying to change your mind on something. The r
178 casinterest : Are you under a rock? You've been able to check out premiums in most states for some time Yeah, but you also qualify for subsidies based on income. I
179 Boeing717200 : It was an employer PPO. Initially they were going to cover the employee, but that didn't cut it cost wise so first of the year everyone loses their b
180 GDB : Don't these 'lawmakers' have a very nice healthcare plan as one of the perks of the job? Paid for by the taxpayer. Presumably to reinforce their idea
181 casinterest : Maybe you should come up with some real facts. Because here is how I see it. you are whining over a company dropping your brother's insurance. that w
182 Acheron : Hopefully you practice what you preach and don't take advantage of the japanese health system, instead paying for all medical expenses out of your ow
183 IADCA : Yeah, it is - and that people don't consider under current plans, either. It sounds like what happened is that the passage of Obamacare gave the empl
184 casinterest : the deductibles will be a hammer. But without the high deductibles, the cost would be much more. This is why there is a bronze, silver, gold, platinu
185 Ken777 : What are we talking about? A CR that funds the Federal Government for a month or two and the GOP wants to make it a path for destruction of Health Ca
186 Boeing717200 : He (my brother not son - read) didn't have a pre-existing condition, but its going to become one. So its not about health care then, its about sticki
187 casinterest : That would be what this shutdown is about I suppose . go ask Boehner.
188 par13del : Another reason why smaller government is needed, the bean counter folks in the federal government are talking silly obout the SS fund running out of
189 Post contains links Dreadnought : Obama was the one who said he was not willing to negotiate. He's willing to talk to Iran, but not his opposition party. Political opposition has been
190 casinterest : Negotiate on a constitutionally approved and ratified law? The GOP isn't performing a negotiation, it is dictating.
191 qantas077 : why should he, who won the last election? I think it's about time the GOP started to realize this small but important fact. the debt ceiling to ranso
192 FlyPNS1 : These days Iran is more rational acting than many members of Congress. Let's cut off all SS and send home all the air traffic controllers (a full shu
193 par13del : Now we see why the legalization as a TAX can be challenged, taxes can be repealed. The President won the executive branch, these "folk" won their sea
194 Dreadnought : Congress has the right to defund any program it likes. The House has constitutional authority over the purse. Since when has this country become a di
195 Stabilator : I wish every one would calm down. Face it, both sides are acting like brats! This is all in limbo because, until today, the ACA wasn't even in effect.
196 par13del : Unless at the time it was not his responsibility to negotiate on the full faith and confidence of the nation, now that he is president it is his resp
197 LittleFokker : Not without the approval of the Senate, so it's pointless for them to pass budget measures they know will not meet the standard of the Senate.
198 LittleFokker : False equivalency Both houses passed ACA, President signed off on it, and the USSC tried and upheld it. What more needs to be done to make it a valid
199 Dreadnought : That is not their job. There job is to pass a bill that will pass the House. If the Senate refuses to pass nothing, or something so different it can'
200 LittleFokker : So Senators are not allowed to represent their states, only Representatives can? How dumb is that comment? And you were complaining about a dictators
201 Dreadnought : Representatives represent the people, the Senate represents the states (extremely poorly, I might add, since the 17th amendment)
202 LittleFokker : Who, might I ask, are electing Senators if it's not the people? Last time I checked, that's how Senators got to be Senators. So they are not allowed
203 Dreadnought : Getting a bit off-topic here, but the purpose of the Senate WAS to defend State's rights by representing the State governments, ensuring that the Fed
204 Ken777 : When you look at long term increases in health care you also see corresponding shifting or health care costs from employer to employee. Individuals a
205 par13del : As already mentioned it is not the job of the house or the senate to pass bills based on the standards of the other I think the USSC said if the indi
206 LittleFokker : And that's why the goverment is at a standstill. If the House is passing bills that they KNOW will not get passed in the Senate, they what the hell i
207 ER757 : Ah, but what about all the hotels, restaurants, gas stations and shops that depend on the tourists who visit those National Parks? They are just S.O.
208 casinterest : If you have the votes. The GOP does not have the votes. Congress has the right, but it takes both parties in equal conjunction. The senate has passed
209 Post contains links einsteinboricua : Well, the debt ceiling was not an issue before 2009, so I wonder what made Republicans so interested in it now. I don't think so. In a way, I think t
210 okie : No it never passed into legislation if you read your own article due to over a 100 senate amendments added on to the budget after approval for before
211 WarRI1 : Obama care is a fact, the ACA is a fact, so now explain the reason for the stupid action of the house. Like infants, the great Tea Party boys and gir
212 Ken777 : Take another look at the "shape" of Representatives' districts around the country. They are crafted in a manner that will minimize opponent success i
213 WarRI1 : NO question about that. The system was already corrupted by money, our far right Supreme Court opened the door to total corruption. Total subjugation
214 okie : You answered the question. Obama gave big corporations a 1 year carve out worth $12B The republicans asked for a 1 year delay for individuals to prot
215 par13del : Neither do the Dems to pass their budget, the issue is that right now neither side has the votes to do what they want to do. They don't have to, they
216 einsteinboricua : Such a shame gerrymandering has ensured GOP dominion over the House for some time. Most of the representatives are safe in red districts so even if o
217 WarRI1 : It will not be the Democrats having a hard time explaining next year, trust me. The ACA is a fact, the Republicans will not be able to stop it. They
218 RyanairGuru : Not for getting us into this position, no, I don't blame him. For the record, I have a lot of respect for Speaker Boehner and have no doubt that he i
219 WarRI1 : Obama in his speech today touched on deficit reduction, national debt, healthcare. I thought it was a very good speech, did anyone watch it? Did Fox
220 Post contains links Revelation : To me the most ridiculous part is: Lawmakers still get a check, even in shutdown mode Right, so we can decide to not 'change' their pay, but we can d
221 WarRI1 : Now that is calling for a dose of reality which they sorely need. They are representing themselves, not us. The Democrats are bad enough, but the Rep
222 Post contains links RyanairGuru : I know that it is in vogue at the moment to blame the "Tea Party" for Republican intransigence (and I am guilty of it), but the following article has
223 seb146 : I find it interesting the sentence you chose to highlight and the one you didn't. Read the very next sentence after the one you highlighted. Democrat
224 GDB : Quite. Funny that isn't it? So you have, what is it, up to 800,000 people sent home without pay? Across the nation too, do the GOP fringe think they
225 kiwirob : You try going without pay for a few weeks when you in a low paying joib like most of these 700,000 are. According to several different news sources t
226 PHX787 : Well this has turned into one hell of a media circus and the Republican reputation is once again down the drain. I think it's high-time I jump ship an
227 par13del : Well the article lost me at that point, when one accuses one side - Republicans - of gerrymsndering - something which the other side did for decades
228 Post contains links Boeing717200 : They don't lose their pay. Once a budget is passed, they get the wages retroactively. Since October 1st was payday, they really have until the 12th o
229 casinterest : The thing is, the Dems budget from the Senate would probably pass in the house if brought for a vote without the ACA language. It is a problem in man
230 Post contains links seb146 : Did you read the part where it says many public employees work in high cost cities? The median income in this country is about $51,000. That includes
231 par13del : I wish it was / is put up for a vote, sinc eit was party line in the Senate I would not be shocked to see the same in the house, they the debate can
232 Ken777 : Which delivers a 35% tax on that $12 Billion. I can live with that as I already see companies shifting nanny care off their P&L as much as possib
233 casinterest : There are 20-30 that would vote with the Democrats on it, and that would be enough. Their are a lot of very pragmatic GOP members, especially in dist
234 MSPNWA : Let's put ourselves in the current shoes of a lawmaker. The first rule is to do no harm. So that's why you have to repeal the ACA if you're a respons
235 osubuckeyes : Going to raise the BS flag on that. Employers that don't have to provide healthcare may raise salaries marginally, but i highly doubt it will be even
236 Post contains links LittleFokker : Wasn't news, it was Jimmy Kimmel's show, but the same effect is had: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx2scvIFGjE
237 Post contains images par13del : Well, no one could agree on any limited cuts, and the sequester with its massives cuts which were put in place to have a punitive effect on the lawma
238 seb146 : They would have to move all those people, find housing, find offices. There are field offices for many things anyway. Federal Courthouses in major ci
239 Post contains images casinterest : Ok, "A Lot" was a stretch. But I think a lot of them will become a bit more pragmatic when they realize that they won't have funds to run against the
240 par13del : One of the points of out-sourcing to lower cost states is to take advantage of cheaper labour and housing, everyone employed by the Fed can't be so u
241 wingman : The Kimmel piece is brilliant. Just when you think the electorate has hit rock bottom in the IQ department they pull another shocker. What it tells me
242 Maverick623 : Huh? In what realistic world do you live in that there's too much government interference in the insurance industry, and what part of that interferen
243 par13del : I can give a couple, some of which are also mentioned in the whole Obama Care Debate. Selection and acceptance of risk, companies at present have the
244 Stabilator : The GOP has been hijacked by the Tea Party. Not all GOP members in the House are scumbags, but they fear losing their seat. And before you say "Good!
245 Ken777 : Far from a "socialist view" - it comes from living in Australia for 8 years. Working in Corporate Australia that was not burdened by that dead weight
246 Post contains links Aeri28 : I have to say this is quite funny. A BBC'esque news presenter asks a Tea Party'er if he's thrilled about the US joining the 'civilized (or civilised)
247 WarRI1 : They do not know the meaning of the word (civilized) when it comes to Obama, or his agenda. They have their own mean spirited agenda to push. Healthc
248 Ken777 : It would have been funnier if the politician wasn't so pathetic.
249 RussianJet : Or, in fact, a Channel 4 news presenter. British yes, but that's the sole extent of the similarity with the BBC.
250 Aeri28 : ...hence, BBC'esque. I was not entirely concerned with which station he came from., ITV, BBC, etc. The point came across.
251 RussianJet : Not really, as Channel 4 has a very different style. I guess it depends on your experience though, as I have been watching all British channels my who
252 Aeri28 : apologies. I didn't even notice the Channel 4 title at the lower left side. I initially posted it not knowing where exactly it came from, just from an
253 seb146 : There is out-sourcing in the private sector which takes jobs from this country and gives them to another country, and then there is out-sourcing in t
254 Post contains images Philby : This is nothing new. Prior to the last presidential election a survey of self-declared republicans found that many agreed strongly with Obamas polici
255 RussianJet : I again restate a question I posed much earlier in the thread. If the matter is so contentious that it can't be resolved in the government houses, why
256 par13del : A blip on the Federal budget but until it is cut folks will always cling to the notion that cutting defense is the major cost factor that will save f
257 casinterest : This issue is about the budget. The budget is what congress is elected to pass in the Representative Government we have. The people are not supposed
258 RussianJet : Except it's not really, is it? A referendum on the sticking point would decide once and for all who is being reasonable and who isn't.
259 casinterest : The referendum was in the last election.
260 RussianJet : I would agree, but unfortunately it seems half of the political spectrum refuses to respect that. This is why a definitive, single-issue referendum o
261 casinterest : you won't get the GOP to agree to it. They lost seats in the house, senate , and they lost the presidency in the last election. A referendum on the i
262 Philby : Currently it seems that it would be hard to solve this by referendum. In recent polls under 50% want to keep Obamacare and under 50% want to not keep
263 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Fair enough on the face of it, Russianjet - but there isn't enough time to run a referendum - unless both sides of Congress meet and authorise increa
264 RussianJet : OK folks - thanks for the responses. I did realise that it's not something that would be even remotely likely, but the fact that it would be so unthin
265 akiss20 : I am sorry but what? Defense was 20% of the 2010 budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Military_budget_and_total_
266 Post contains images Ken777 : If Defense cuts were only made in Districts that have politicians pushing for cuts in spending then you would see that "blip" going into uncontrollab
267 Post contains images Revelation : We should pass a law to defund Congressional medical benefits if they can bypass the legislative process to defund ACA. These folks are making $174,0
268 Post contains links seb146 : Other than most of Congress does not want these options, how are they not an option? If you look at raw data, simply looking at votes cast, a majorit
269 par13del : Why pick the FBI, thousands of Federal workers are clerks who man counters, process payments, deal with mailings, provide janitorial services, man se
270 Post contains links Revelation : Why pick out clerks, accountants, janitors, security guards, etc? Makes one wonder if you want us to think that all Federal employees are under educa
271 par13del : At least I am being more general instead of limiting my comment about those who are suffering to FBI agents, all Federal Employees are at risk and so
272 Ken777 : I believe that the FBI Agent was a pretty good example of the ignorance in expecting that government employees could get other jobs in the private se
273 WarRI1 : What puzzles me is how there being only 46 members of the house in the Tea Party Caucus that they can screw up the whole government process. There ar
274 Aeri28 : Im all for healthcare for all, but this is what I dont get. Isn't it estimated that most Americans have healthcare? I read estimates that only 18-22%
275 Ken777 : It's called fear of the Tea Party taking them out in the primaries. The TP certainly has the money to roll over any Republican who doesn't jump when
276 RyanairGuru : DELETE DELETE DELETE[Edited 2013-10-03 19:52:49]
277 seb146 : Yes. States that are controlled by far right wingers get to redraw the voting lines. People who live across the street from each other may be in diff
278 WarRI1 : In this country, all should be covered for healthcare. Is the rich person any more deserving than the poor person? Is a rich persons life worth more
279 seb146 : There should be a minimum that is not ER. If people can afford extra care, they can have it. But, we should all have what ACA is trying to do. Also,
280 WarRI1 : Absolutely, we should all be equal in the eyes of our government. We know that is not always so. We should all be able to live because we have health
281 Aesma : There is no need to count people who did not vote in a referendum, if they didn't then they don't care one way or the other. You add provisions for p
282 seb146 : People are starting to see that. As long as it is referred to as "ACA" and not "Obamacare". I saw that poll and am still shaking my head. People were
283 PHX787 : Jesus, Obamacare. I had my mom call my ear specialist in the USA for an appointment over christmas. I'm supposed to go every 6 months because of my ea
284 ATCtower : No, nothing is screwed up... America NEEDS this, its better for the people, trust the politicians, they know... I mean they shut down the country to
285 PHX787 : ......I don't need it, my family didn't need it, 60% of the country doesn't want it. I don't see one bit why it's better....buy insurance at an infla
286 caliatenza : some 4.6 million people visited the website the first day. 60 percent of the country doesnt want it because they dont know what its about. Once they
287 par13del : Which means that persons at the state level are voting for or did vote for these Republicans, we cannot simply say they are in power because they re-
288 casinterest : Just watch what happens in North Carolina over the next year. The State Level GOP has pretty much tanked the National GOP's chances at taking a senat
289 Boeing717200 : It's already been shown that site visits have been grossly overstated and the program uptake is abysmal. You know there are over 300 million people i
290 seb146 : As long as the "fringe element" has money to pump into state elections and the media, they can keep electing crazies. Voting lines are usually drawn
291 wingman : It'll take time. Republicans voted against Medicare and Medicaid as well and said each program would destroy the nation within a year and send America
292 Boeing717200 : Well, it took more than a year, but both are financial disasters.
293 seb146 : Are they? Doctors get paid, procedures are done, money comes in. Next you are going to tell us Social Security is the biggest cause of the deficit.
294 Post contains links Boeing717200 : http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news...t-further-away-than-last-year?lite
295 Revelation : Still not seeing where you are going. Why should Federal employees be looking for employment outside of government, they perform a lot of vital funct
296 wingman : I guess some folks will never be truly happy until they have to drive past millions of starving, dead, and dying people, less fortunate than themselv
297 par13del : The government is shut down, for those who are already not working they can / have to sit and wait for the government to reopen, they can also start
298 Aesma : Constructive criticism is welcome. So, can you explain how Obamacare caused this ? Is it normal practice to ask your insurance before seeing a doctor
299 par13del : Yes, the issue is not how it is done but by whom, last I checked it is being done by elected officials as the law requires it to be approved by state
300 Revelation : I think this is mostly a blip, like it was 17 years ago. There are different risk/reward profiles for private vs government jobs and those IMHO have
301 Ken777 : It's your insurance company that limits the number of visits they will pay for. Your ear doctor might be able to call and get approval from your priv
302 par13del : In a parallel thread they are talking about what they would do to force congress to pass a budget, not sure if I mentioned it there but reading your
303 Revelation : Seems to me that: (a) if you create a concentration of 'your' voters you are probably also creating concentrations of 'their' voters at the same time
304 casinterest : Look at NC, 3 Districts of 75% Democrat and 25% republican, and then you have 10 districts of 52-57% Republican. The folks that were Gerrymandered in
305 Aesma : Yeah gerrymandering is not about concentrating your voters, it's the opposite. You concentrate the opposition so that they win a few seats with an ove
306 FlyPNS1 : Virginia is a similar problem. While both of Virginia's Senators are Democrats and Virginia supported Obama in the past two elections, the Representa
307 Dreadnought : Really? The Senate where 2 senators, representing a state with 500,000 people has the same voting power as 2 senators from a state with 35 million pe
308 Post contains links iowaman : Due to length, here is part two with a thread title change: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 2 (by iowaman Oct 4 2013 in Non Aviation) This threa
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