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Should Washington Redskins Change Name?  
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Posted (9 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 1840 times:

A lot of controversy lately and I've heard pros from some Native American leaders and cons from other interested parties and was wondering what you folks think. Personally, I have never considered the term "redskin" to be racially derogatory, but then, I'm just an ole white guy bystander that likes to watch a good baseball game now and then. (Go Tigers).

I also wondered about the Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians (and Indian motorcycle for that matter). Would the Santa Fe Super Chief or Pontiac Chieftain survive in today's P.C. climate? It can be argued that some of these could be perceived as stately references, not negative in some people's minds, but it does make one (me, anyway) wonder a bit. Any points of view? best regards...jack

P.S. I hope this is not an old topic. If so, kindly point me to topic title. I checked but couldn't find any specific references.


all best; jack
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39693 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (9 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Having the name Washington in front of their name is an insult.


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 1806 times:

Cool, thanks for clearing that up for everyone.

Quoting cptkrell (Thread starter):
I have never considered the term "redskin" to be racially derogatory, but then, I'm just an ole white guy bystander that likes to watch a good baseball game now and then. (Go Tigers).

I think the problem is that redskin is kind of racially derogatory. Can you imagine a minor league team called the El Paso Wetbacks? The Savannah Negroes? We've gotten used to Redskins as the name of an NFL team but if someone tried to name an expansion team that it would assault on good taste and decency.

[Edited 2013-10-21 11:07:13 by SA7700]


When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offline4holer From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2997 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1785 times:

I hated when my college (Indiana Univ. of PA) changed the mascot from the Indians. (It's Indiana, PA for petes sake!)
I was against changing the name of Squaw Peak here in PHX to Piestewa Peak.. (Mostly because I don't buy the "evolved from the C word" argument, and most natives had no problem with it)

...But the Redskins gotta change that. I don't think "Indians, Braves, Chiefs" and such are offensive; they actually are a tribute to bravery, strength, etc. But "Redskins" is an insult and an ugly embarrassment to the NFL.

Change it.



Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39693 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

Quoting 4holer (Reply 4):
I hated when my college (Indiana Univ. of PA) changed the mascot from the Indians.

I hated when Beaver College in Pennsylvania changed their name as well.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineLittleFokker From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 3):
Can you imagine a minor league team called the El Paso Wetbacks? The Savannah Negroes?

  

I get the concepts of brand loyalty and brand value, but plenty of teams have survived name changes before. In fact, the New Orleans NBA team is changing it's name this year from the drab "Hornets" to the equally drab "Pelicans." Granted, there was no outside pressure to change it, but they'll survive.

Let's look at it this way, for those who are Washington football fans, is a name change honestly going to change how you feel about your team? Pick a few nominees, have a fan vote, and let's get this over with.



"Toughest wind I ever played in....straight down!" - W. C. Fields
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39693 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 6):
I get the concepts of brand loyalty and brand value, but plenty of teams have survived name changes before. In fact, the New Orleans NBA team is changing it's name this year from the drab "Hornets" to the equally drab "Pelicans." Granted, there was no outside pressure to change it, but they'll survive.

Agreed. Although I don't have a strong opinion on this issue. Also, teams have been changing cities and stadiums often in recent years so a name change wouldn't be that big of a deal.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 6):
Pick a few nominees, have a fan vote, and let's get this over with.

Leeches
Bloodsuckers
Albatross
Bureaucrats
Parasites

All the above suit Washington very well.

[Edited 2013-10-20 10:28:16]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineandz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8442 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 1749 times:
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There is a chain of steak restaurants here in South Africa that sort of has American Indian (is that the PC term?) themed décor. Apparently a few years ago some American patrons at one of the restaurants kicked up a stink because the restrooms were labelled Squaws and Braves.

https://www.spur.co.za/



After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):

Leeches
Bloodsuckers
Albatross
Bureaucrats
Parasites

All the above suit Washington very well.

Well said, 'Fly.

I wish I could claim this as my original, but can't. I just got off the phone with a good buddy and he suggested that Washington just keep the "Redskins" as their official name but change the graphics to a picture of a potato. Boom! No problem!. best regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3080 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
No.

End of discussion.

   This.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 3):
I think the problem is that redskin is kind of racially derogatory.

Quite frankly unless you're Native American, your opinion is irrelevant. The fact remains that poll after poll shows that an overwhelming majority of Native Americans do NOT find the team name offensive.

[Edited 2013-10-20 11:14:07]


Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7119 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

I say no. It has not been a big problem until the last few years. This country and the world is becoming too PC and everyone wants everything to please everyone. That is not the way the world works. Unless a large amount of Native Americans are offended by it I don't see a big problem. From what I have seen Native American communities are not protesting the name. I may be wrong. Anyone care to share examples of them demanding the name change please let me know.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 4):
Indians,

From what I have read there is more dislike from Native Americans to this name than Redskins. The mascot is also offensive if the Redskins name is. It is a big Red "Indian" face with a feather.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineLittleFokker From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 265 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 10):
The fact remains that poll after poll shows that an overwhelming majority of Native Americans do NOT find the team name offensive

You mean this poll?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...e-is-offensive-to-native-americans

What about this one?


http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwor...ing-offensive-redskins-name-151498

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 10):
Quite frankly unless your Native American, your opinion is irrelevant.

What if I, as a white person, think the word "nigger" is generally an offensive word, no matter what the context is. Does that make my opinion irrelevant?



"Toughest wind I ever played in....straight down!" - W. C. Fields
User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3080 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 13):
You mean this poll?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...e-is-offensive-to-native-americans

What about this one?

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwor...ing-offensive-redskins-name-151498

The premise of those polls is IF Native Americans find the term offensive. The fact is, Native Americans do not. I would absolutely support a name change if it was considered offensive by Native Americans. See reply 10.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 13):
Does that make my opinion irrelevant?

First, I would say you are arguing apples and oranges since few people would think redskin has anywhere near the meaning as nigger. Second, yes, your opinion, mine, and anyone else who isn't black is generally irrelevant as the word is not directed at us.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (9 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 10):
Quite frankly unless you're Native American, your opinion is irrelevant. The fact remains that poll after poll shows that an overwhelming majority of Native Americans do NOT find the team name offensive.

If you had [real] Native American co-workers would you refer to them as a redskins to their face?



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3080 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1663 times:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 15):
If you had [real] Native American co-workers would you refer to them as a redskins to their face?

That depends. Is he one of the 9/10 who couldn't care less?

If a majority Native Americans found the term offensive, or hell even close to half, I'd support a name change. Until then, this is nothing but over the top apologist PC rhetoric.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlineIADCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1256 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1661 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Leeches
Bloodsuckers
Albatross
Bureaucrats
Parasites

All the above suit Washington very well.

Fly, I think you're an interesting guy and post interesting things, but most people here don't work for the government, especially Congress. We're regular people and would rather not be insulted. That's like saying people should refer to Thailand's national soccer team as the Ladyboys because that's a stereotype of the inhabitants.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
I hated when Beaver College in Pennsylvania changed their name as well.

This. Especially since it was a women's school.

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 3):
if someone tried to name an expansion team that it would assault on good taste and decency.

This, to me, is the strongest argument. But I do find it distateful that this issue has just come to the fore as a manufactured issue by some politicians.


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Yes. They should become the DC Redskins.

User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9772 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1633 times:
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Quoting cptkrell (Thread starter):
that likes to watch a good baseball game now and then. (Go Tigers)

Um, you're a few hours late for that.  
Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 1):
No.

End of discussion.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Having the name Washington in front of their name is an insult.

  

Quoting IADCA (Reply 17):
Fly, I think you're an interesting guy and post interesting things, but most people here don't work for the government, especially Congress. We're regular people and would rather not be insulted. That's like saying people should refer to Thailand's national soccer team as the Ladyboys because that's a stereotype of the inhabitants.

He was insulting politicians, not "regular people".



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineNOLAWildcat From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 25 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

I've been visiting this site for over a decade now and finally decided to sign up as a forum member. I find it ironic that my first post on A.net is not about aviation, but as a football fan, I find this debate to be an interesting commentary on American society.

I am a Saints fan and don't particularly care about the end result of the Redskins' naming controversy. I won't hold a grudge against the NFL or the powers that be if the name is changed. But I am a bit conflicted about the nature of the debate over the Redskins' name. On one hand, I can see why the name could be perceived as objectionable, and I respect the opinions of those who hold the view that the name should be changed. In my opinion, the name is tasteless, and I certainly would not propose the name Redskins as the name of an expansion team. On the other hand, I see the current debate on the team name as a media-driven brouhaha kicked up by the PC-police over an issue that's not particularly important in the long run. It's another example of the media's propensity to trump up every potential controversy into a matter of life or death for the sake of ratings and filling a 24-hour news cycle. The stubborn part of me wants Dan Snyder to keep the name simply to make the point that it's his team and the name is his to change (and believe me, I'm no fan of Snyder).

However, if polls find that a sizable percentage of Native Americans object to the name, it would probably be a good idea for Snyder to change the name solely for PR reasons--after all this sort of controversy is bad for business, and Snyder has certainly shown himself to be much more effective at making money off the team than putting a quality product on the field. It may even be possible to keep the Native American imagery associated with the team if Snyder can reach a deal with a local tribe regarding a new name and logo similar to that which Florida State has reached with the Seminole Tribe of Florida. Otherwise, there are plenty of other routes the organization could go with a new name--"Redtails" is a favorite of mine given the imagery and the demographics of DC (plus the late 60's-early 70's Redskins' uniforms could be used with minor tweaks).

My point is that the team's name will ultimately be changed not because the name is objectionable, but because the media-manufactured frenzy over the name has radicalized both sides of the argument to the extent that Snyder (either on his own, or through pressure exerted by Tsar Goodell) will be forced to change it simply to remove the threat of bad PR from the organization and the league. The whole issue is another example of how the media's transition to sensationalistic reporting in the world of the 24 hour news cycle has eliminated the presentation of moderate viewpoints and rational discussion in much of the public sphere. Assuming the current media firestorm over the name continues to simmer (even at a lower level) over the next couple of years, I expect to see a gradual de-emphasis on the name and an eventual change within 5 years.



Wall-to-wall Football is ruining my weekend.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7119 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 1593 times:

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 13):
You mean this poll?

Those polls are all fine and dandy but they didnt poll Native Americans themselves. I couldn't care less what people in Washington D.C. wanted. D.C. the PC capital of the world. Until a majority of Native Americans want the name change there is no reason to change it.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2986 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1547 times:

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
I've been visiting this site for over a decade now and finally decided to sign up as a forum member. I find it ironic that my first post on A.net is not about aviation, but as a football fan, I find this debate to be an interesting commentary on American society

Welcome

I have to agree with your analogy. I might add that with all the additional sources of media they have had to add additional sensationalism to try and get market share.



Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Having the name Washington in front of their name is an insult.

I have to agree on that one Superfly the fine folks in the state of Washington should be insulted.
They should be call the District of Columbia Redskins and fix the Nationals while they are at it.  

Okie


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13033 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
My point is that the team's name will ultimately be changed not because the name is objectionable, but because the media-manufactured frenzy over the name has radicalized both sides of the argument to the extent that Snyder (either on his own, or through pressure exerted by Tsar Goodell) will be forced to change it simply to remove the threat of bad PR from the organization and the league.


Consider that Washington, DC is the national capital and strongly enforces against other forms or discriminatory and objectionable brand names and the like so continuing the 'Redskins' is kind of a contradiction. I wouldn't be surprised that the name will be changed in the next 5-10 years and they may do it gradually. A first step
would be to phase out the use of the 'Indian Head' logo, to something else, then the name itself. One problem would be some way to keep the copyright, trademark and 'trade dress' of their Redskins current team name, logos and identifications from others illegally making and selling products after a change. Similar names of other sports teams and logos, like the Cleveland Indians, especially their offensive, cartoonish 'Chief Wahoo' logo should also make transitions to new names and logos.


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2755 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1506 times:
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Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 20):
I've been visiting this site for over a decade now and finally decided to sign up as a forum member.

Welcome to the site!

You know I never found myself really all that concerned with this subject until I came to the University of North Dakota. We were called the "Fighting Sioux" until the NCAA in it's infinite wisdom decided it was offensive to Native Americans. One of my closest friends grew up on the Standing Rock Reservation and was appalled when they took the name away. He mentioned how Native children don't have a lot of positive figures to look up to, but the kids wanted to be a part of the University because it represented them. I remember him saying how he couldn't figure out how a University such as ours that explained in the beginning of every game what being a "Fighting Sioux" meant in such a respectful manner was forced to get rid of a name when the Seminoles could keep their name, and on the pro side of things you had the Redskins and the stereotypical Indians logo.

I think we have to sit down and look at these things. Do the Redskins have respectful showings during or before the games? Or do they have an Indian in a stereotypical headdress running down the field on a horse? I have no Native blood in me, so there I can't say first hand it is disrespectful, but from the outside looking in I would certainly say it is. I think if they want the debate to go away they have to go out themselves and change it. The NFL forcing them to change it is not a good thing to do. I remember the first hockey game after it was announced they would penalize us for keeping the name a chant that included the words "(Use your imagination) the N-C-A-A." The team has to move to change itself if there is serious debate about it. You don't want angry fans because it doesn't go away. This is our second full year of being just "North Dakota" and you still have angry fans and the Sioux chants are louder than ever. The Red Skins should make themselves out as an example of how to handle things.
Pat



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinemaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1524 times:

Personally, I really don't care what they call themselves... I am not a fan of the NFL team based in DC. Which leads me to this point:

Quoting flymia (Reply 21):
I couldn't care less what people in Washington D.C. wanted. D.C. the PC capital of the world. Until a majority of Native Americans want the name change there is no reason to change it.

It should be the opinions of the fans of the team that are held in higher regard. If they don't like the name, I support them in changing it. If they do, I support them in keeping it.


Also, I don't care because I am personally not offended by mere words or terms.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8844 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting maverick623 (Reply 25):
Also, I don't care because I am personally not offended by mere words or terms.

Every year it is something else. What is next? This PC is overwhelming us. I think the owners should have the last say. Now if this was a union issue, I certainly would not agree with the owners   



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
25 Post contains images vikkyvik : What about us actual Indians? Can we be offended by the Cleveland Indians?? I don't have a red face, dammit! My lord 'Fly, you are on a roll in this t
26 EA CO AS : As was I, primarily because then-Gov. Janet Napolitano violated the law to do so; federal law required a 5 year waiting period from the time of someo
27 PHX787 : Should they be forced to, like some on the left are suggesting? No. They're a private organization. If they want to change, that's their call...or the
28 baguy : A similar example is a well known brand of cheese hear in Australia, Coon. Now for many, that's an extremely offensive word, yet it still exists as a
29 RayChuang : I've heard that the name Red Tails--the nickname given to perhaps one of the most famous USAAF combat units in World War II, the 332nd Fighter Group (
30 cgnnrw : Also a fellow IUP gradutate here...don't have much contact to IUP anymore so I missed all this. When did this take place and what do they call themse
31 casinterest : I think they should change the name. When they moved the baseball team in from Montreal, they didn't keep "expos" They might as well find something mo
32 Post contains images WestJet747 : Must be a cold day in hell, WarRI1...I actually agree with you 100% on this one! At the end of the day, we should let the owners decide whether they
33 Post contains links 4holer : I really have no contact either, haven't been back since the day of my last final in 1989, so I had to look it up myself, but they changed to the Cri
34 WarRI1 : Ok. That reply gave me a real chuckle. I agree with you 100% also.
35 Post contains links L410Turbolet : They were probably from the same PC brigade that recently threw a tantrum over a Dunkin Donuts ad in THAILAND and who obviously make living out of be
36 Superfly : Right now a lot of westerners are up & arms over the popularity of Hitler Fried Chicken. Gosh it is time to kick those people out already! Same f
37 Post contains images srbmod : The last few years? It's been a lot more than that, try since the 1960s. I remember in the early 90s, the Atlanta Braves were targeted by the America
38 solarflyer22 : I guess I don't understand why it became an issue all of a sudden after the supreme court essentially decided that the owner won. The media has jumped
39 okie : I guess we will be in trouble in Oklahoma soon. Coronado in 1541 gave the area the name derived the Choctaw Indian language from the inhabitants. Okla
40 Post contains images Superfly : I haven't heard Senator Elizabeth Warren complaining about it either.
41 Post contains images zippyjet : It's up to the owner and the fans. If the fans stop coming because of the name then change it otherwise this PC crap has gone too far. There are more
42 4holer : They should change their name to the Foreskins. I've already been calling them that for years anyway...
43 zippyjet : So have I! This whole PC thing has gone on steroids. If it wasn't so ridiculous it would be funny. I have to hand it to my generation the Baby Boomer
44 victrola : Does anyone think that we may soon have Americans of Scandinavian ancestry protesting about the Minnesota Vikings?
45 victrola : How about the "Fighting Irish"? That certainly perpetuates a negative stereotype.
46 Post contains links us330 : At the very least, it's geographically ignorant! Call em the Landover Lame-ducks instead (they don't do anything on the field anyway!) The NCAA didn'
47 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : If the Edmonton Eskimos of the Canadian Football League were being established today, they'd almost certainly have a different name. "Eskimo" is now
48 Post contains images zippyjet : Where are the PC weenies in regard to Eskimo Pie the ice cream concoction? Some folks especially some hot strippers think Eskimoes went into the makin
49 ltbewr : Sports broadcaster and commentator Bob Costas did a follow up on a radio show this past week on his SNF comments about the Redskins name. One of his f
50 Pellegrine : Yes, it is derogatory. I don't see Blackskins, or Yellowskins, or Paleskins, or Whiteskins being acceptable anytime soon. Just because something exist
51 Mike89406 : Call it whatever you like. It really doesn't matter anyways. I can't in good faith support a American sport that cheating with PEDS and designer stero
52 ual747den : I seen today that the neighbor of the teams owner has trademarked the name Washington Braveharts so it appears that the pressure has gotten to him and
53 Mike89406 : Aren't Indians Native Americans? What am I missing?
54 ual747den : No Indians are from India and Native Americans are the people who inabited this country before the Europeans arrived.
55 LittleFokker : Great article you linked to. Let's put the situation in mathematical terms. Let's say to the people who find the name Redskins name offensive and der
56 soon7x7 : Would that be any different from my Spanish co-workers that refer to me as "Gringo? Being a white, conservative Catholic middle class American, I can
57 cptkrell : Hey, I need to issue an apology. After re-reading a recent comment, I understand why the mods deleted my post on the ridiculous (I think) suggested ba
58 Mike89406 : I really Good one, lol. I think you know what I mean.[Edited 2013-10-26 12:58:18]
59 kric777 : I can see both sides. Part of me says "Damn, it's just the name of a sports team, let's just let it rest!" On the other hand, it is not an "admiring"
60 Mike89406 : If they want to change the name then whatever makes happy. I suppose my life is too busy than to worry about these things. Change it to the Whitehawks
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