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Legality Of Red Light Cameras?  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

I just got a nasty gram in the mail for a red light violation. I was told once by a police officer several years ago, that since those are issued by a non law enforcement agency, for commercial purposes, additionally you never signed a promise to appear you can pretty much throw them away. Dont know if laws vary from state to state, but this is California.

Additionally, I have had a spotless record for 20 years.. Is a $790 fine for a first time offense excessive? I think its ludicrous.

I watched the video and the light changed red just as my front wheels hit the intersection.

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2170 times:

I'm afraid I don't know anything about their enforceability, but...

Does the video show where you were when it turned amber? If they can make out that you could safely have stopped from that moment, then they have a valid case. BUT if they can't show where you were when it turned amber then they have very little to stand on, as you can claim that it would have been unsafe for you to stop in time, and without knowing where you are then they can't easily disprove that.

But $790. S***!!! That's steep, if you can get out of it then do



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2166 times:

I'd call in. I got one not too long ago, the receptionist was standoffish, but the guy who handled the tickets just erased it. I wasn't even trying to get it erased (even though I disagreed with it, my tires were clearly over the white line as the light turned red) I just wanted the late fees to go away. It made the ticket more, not nearly as much as yours, but it still was pretty hefty, and since I changed addresses so much, I didn't update my driver's license so after mailing my previous address a bunch. They mailed my parents/failsafe point of contact, and by then, the ticket had gotten a late fee.

It is kinda hard to defend a red light charge, but that varies state to state. Sometimes they erase it just because they don't want to deal with fighting it. I have no idea why my guy did, but hey, it worked. If you're able to go to court and contest it, you probably have a pretty good chance of wining assuming you weren't illegal in your state (varies state to state, I'd look it up.)

To answer your other question, again, varies state to state, but I was under the impression that where I was from, as long as you didn't pass through the jurisdiction or maybe state where the ticket happened, you were ok. It might happen that only the city you got it in enforces it, in that case, no problem, just don't go through the city. I don't recommend it, and even if you interpret all the rules, I'd still just get it out of the way just in case.

Let us know how it goes. I can't give you a good answer, unfortunately, because it all depends on the jurisdiciton. I'd call in and try to contest it, if not, go to court and try. There is a very good chance you'll win. Most people pay the fee without contest and that's where the city gets the money... they don't get the money by fighting people in court over a red light ticket



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2157 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I watched the video and the light changed red just as my front wheels hit the intersection.

Which means you ran the red light.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Is a $790 fine for a first time offense excessive?

Wow, that is steep but, localities in California need to make up their budget shortfalls, somehow.

Sure looks legal and enforceable to me:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21455_5.htm

[Edited 2013-10-21 19:02:27]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

http://www.photoenforced.com/rhode-island.html



Running a red light can have disastrous consequences, that fine is a lesson teacher. I guess that is the point. Not as bad money wise here, but usually the fine doubles, and doubles and doubles again, until they arrest you. Providence has them, Pawtucket maybe next.

[Edited 2013-10-21 19:04:05]


It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2125 times:

In Arizona (and I'd hence imagine all States) the whole of the car has to be in the intersection when the light goes red for you to be on the right side of the law. I seem to recall that the white line does not mark the intersection, the intersection is defined as if you drew straight lines from the curbs to form a box. From your description it would seem that you definitely ran the light.

There was a story from AZ that a red light camera had been taking pics of people for years running red lights, however it was found that the lights were incorrectly programmed resulting in the amber being on for too short of a time. All those that had paid fines were re-imbursed. If nothing else you could request proof that the amber was on for long enough.

As said before, running a red light is extremely dangerous and the punishment has clearly been set to reflect this.



Fortune favours the brave
User currently onlineLittleFokker From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 267 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2109 times:

Just got one myself in IL about two months ago. I did as much research into the matter as I could before ultimately deciding to pay the fine. I really wanted to take it to court to make it cost prohibitive for the company involved (nothing like getting a bill from a company in Phoenix asking me to mail money to a place in Cincinnatti - keepin' it local!), however, I couldn't come up with a valid defense after reviewing the video.

Most studies I've read indicate that these cameras do not improve safety at all (the bullshit argument used to put them in place), but can actually make an intersection more dangerous due to the number of cars who end up braking hard at a yellow light rather than cruise on through as they normally would. And, as further proof that these cameras are just a money grab, I read in the fine print that my fine does not count as a moving violation, in essence, no more punitive than your ordinary parking ticket. If these things were really about safety, it would be a moving violation as if a police officer legitimately witnessed me committing the violation.

As a side note, I've noticed around the Chicagoland that the towns who have the red light cameras are the towns with more businesses than residents. High resident population towns don't want to offend their residents too much. It's an unconstitutional cash grab, and I hope this gets taken to the USSC someday and these stupid things go away.



"Toughest wind I ever played in....straight down!" - W. C. Fields
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2096 times:

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 3):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I watched the video and the light changed red just as my front wheels hit the intersection.

Which means you ran the red light.

   Varies state to state. In GA (and I think FL) all you need is your front wheels over the white line. Mine were, barely, but it definitely wasn't the whole car. I believe some states need you to be clear of the entire intersection at the time of the red light



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2966 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Varies state to state. In GA (and I think FL) all you need is your front wheels over the white line. Mine were, barely, but it definitely wasn't the whole car.

Not in California, which is were the OP said he was from.

However,

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
$790 fine

Seems absurdly high. What city was this in? Even Beverly Hills' fees aren't anywhere near this.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 8):
Not in California, which is were the OP said he was from.

Whoops, my bad  
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 8):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
$790 fine

Seems absurdly high.

Yeah, I agree. I'm thinking there might be late fees or something. Same happened to me



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21523 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2056 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Running a red light can have disastrous consequences

Except it isn't, at least not in the way he did it. Sure, if you run a red light after it's been red for several seconds you're creating an extremely dangerous hazard, but if you're barely not into the intersection by the time the light turns red, you'll likely be through the intersection before the opposing light turns green, and thus you're not really endangering anyone. Of course, the red light camera, being stupid, doesn't really know the difference.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
that fine is a lesson teacher.

What it's really teaching is to slam on the brakes when you're unsure of whether you can make it through the intersection, which creates a more dangerous situation (the possibility of being run into from behind) than going through the intersection a fraction of a second after the red.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineStuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 8):
Seems absurdly high. What city was this in? Even Beverly Hills' fees aren't anywhere near this.

If ever it were that simple.

My first (and only) speeding ticket was in West Sacramento, CA for 70 in a 55. Every single person on I-80 was going that speed, she just picked on me because I was young. This was around 1996. The ticket cost me over $700. I learned in traffic school (which always involved a whole day back then) that West Sacramento had the highest ticket costs of anywhere in CA at that time.

Go figure.


User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2966 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Yeah, I agree. I'm thinking there might be late fees or something. Same happened to me

There has to be something, because that number is simply farcical for a first-time violation.



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13039 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Here in New Jersey, there are only a few red-light cameras, mainly in Newark. Problem is that beyond Newark, they are pretty much shut down or permits for them suspended due to a variety of legal disputes.
While I understand the importance of enforcement of red lights to protect vehicles coming from the other direction and for pedestrians as well as attempt to reduce police costs, I don't like them. Someone could get several red light camera tickets and be a very bad driver or drunk at the time or who may be on the lookout by police for more serious problems but all you get them for is the stop light violation.
Then you have the whole 'privatization' of what should be the exclusive job of government for Constitutional reasons, to the likely corruption by corps with government leaders or using cherry picked information with who decide on these contracts, that the cameras can be rigged with very short yellow lights or no 'fudge factor' as to timing before the camera kicks in. Also the owner of the vehicle gets nailed, not the driver (unless the driver is the owner) so the owner can get screwed upon annual registration or the car seized for non-payment of fines even if someone else using the car during these violations.
To me have properly timed lights, put cops out at intersections with high stop light violation accidents to look for and nail violators.


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 12):
There has to be something, because that number is simply farcical for a first-time violation.

Well, I started looking for a fee schedule in CA and have been unable to find one. But, I did find this statement:

The court can tell you what amount to pay. The fine, penalties, and fees for infractions can be $465 or more

http://www.courts.ca.gov/9581.htm

That implies that the minimum fine for an infraction (running a red light is an infraction) is $465.00.

There was another statement in the Vehicle Code that said a fine of $100 would be set for an infraction. Is that added to the $465?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2002 times:

It seems there is some confusion about crossing the line before the red allowing you free passage and not a violation in California. Here is what the law states:

"21453. (a) A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall
stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the
crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then
before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an
indication to proceed is shown"

The driver is not facing a solid red light until after entering the intersection (crossed the line) and is not in violation of this rule. Maybe teh OP can give the code # and also give the Late Time (also called "red time," "red T" or "TR")? Is your face clearly visible? Have you checked the light that they did not shorten the yellow? There are many ways to get out of red light tickets in California, look for the loopholes.

I consider it a public duty to make these people earn their (my) money. The ticket is so high because the camera rats need to make money too as your county is charging the same even though their PD did no work. Of course we also have local governments doubling the fine with BS fees. It is nothing but a money making scam.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1262 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

This is a great resource for Red Light Tickets:

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently onlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1975 times:

We do not have them in MN. Thankfully, the Minnesota supreme court ruled that violations issued due to red-light cameras were illegal since the state is unable to verify who was driving the vehicle.

User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7134 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1944 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I watched the video and the light changed red just as my front wheels hit the intersection.

So you're one of those drivers who doesn't understand the purpose of the amber light?


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3872 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1870 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):
Does the video show where you were when it turned amber? If they can make out that you could safely have stopped from that moment, then they have a valid case. BUT if they can't show where you were when it turned amber then they have very little to stand on, as you can claim that it would have been unsafe for you to stop in time, and without knowing where you are then they can't easily disprove that.
Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
What it's really teaching is to slam on the brakes when you're unsure of whether you can make it through the intersection, which creates a more dangerous situation (the possibility of being run into from behind) than going through the intersection a fraction of a second after the red.

What sort of ridiculous timings do you have on your traffic lights in the US? In the UK there is no circumstance where you risk being unable to stop for an amber light and would have to risk going through a red light - if you were, then you were exceeding the speed limit in the first place, or your vehicle does not meet the law for stopping distances, so in either case you are breaking the law anyhow.

Some of the driving stuff I hear from US posters on various forums is just plain scary, not a place I would want to drive if the majority of drivers are like some of those I see post...


User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7063 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

On the cost of the ticket, it does appears that most jurisdictions have farmed out the service to private contractors, so the cost has to include the government penalty and a margin to cover operations.

In some instances, the numbers are not being thrown up on violations going down, we know that the state and contractor are getting funds, those in favour say the removal will render intersections unsafe. It would be good if the number of violations recorded were thrown out as well so that the safety aspect could be properly vetted versus just claims.
Certainely anything that brings in money for the state coffers is a good thing, whether it is an unintended consequence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n-red-light-cameras_n_3873874.html
http://www.wuft.org/news/2013/09/12/...tial-removal-of-red-light-cameras/
http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/...0/Floridas-right-turn-trap-exposed


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12393 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1852 times:
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Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 6):
but can actually make an intersection more dangerous due to the number of cars who end up braking hard at a yellow light rather than cruise on through as they normally would

   If you're approaching a junction with lights, you should always be prepared to stop. If you have to "brake hard" to make the stop, then you were probably going too fast. Are there not signs before you get to the lights telling you that the lights are ahead?

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
What it's really teaching is to slam on the brakes when you're unsure of whether you can make it through the intersection, which creates a more dangerous situation (the possibility of being run into from behind) than going through the intersection a fraction of a second after the red.

   Regardless of how quickly you stop, if the driver behind you runs in to you, then he was too close. Again, if you have to "slam" on the brakes, then you're going too fast for the circumstances.


There really is zero excuse for not being able to stop in a reasonable manner at a junction with lights.

[Edited 2013-10-22 04:51:40]


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1844 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
What it's really teaching is to slam on the brakes when you're unsure of whether you can make it through the intersection, which creates a more dangerous situation (the possibility of being run into from behind) than going through the intersection a fraction of a second after the red.
Quoting moo (Reply 19):
What sort of ridiculous timings do you have on your traffic lights in the US? In the UK there is no circumstance where you risk being unable to stop for an amber light and would have to risk going through a red light - if you were, then you were exceeding the speed limit in the first place, or your vehicle does not meet the law for stopping distances, so in either case you are breaking the law anyhow.

In my own experience the degree to which I'm 'unsure' is directly proportional to my speed and level of desire to make the light! When driving somewhere near the speed limit and braking when the light turns I have had no problem stopping in time without drama. Based on previous topics I think it is fair to say that OP has a heavy foot  

But, on the other hand I do recall some scandal where yellow light times were reduced in conjunction with red light camera installations...the where/when escapes me. That is genuinely dangerous.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4474 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1784 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I watched the video and the light changed red just as my front wheels hit the intersection.

Sounds like you got caught and will have to pay.

I still think Red Light Cameras are not really performing a safety need. I would need to see the statistics, but most of the issues will come from minor timing issues due to speed, or a short yellow. The real issue is the folks that are not paying attention and go into an intersection 3-5+ seconds after the red has turned. That is when the cross traffic will be there, and that is the real safety issue. Nothing but awareness can fix that.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1781 times:

We can all play devil's advocate, but we've all been in those situations in one way or another. Coulda shoulda woulda makes no difference when you're in that awkward window and you have to floor it or slam on the brakes. If you're driving a big truck sometimes the yellow light isn't adequate enough. I don't see people being a micrometer away from being legal a big deal. How many accidents are caused by these slip ups? Not talking about blatantly running red lights, I'm talking about these minor infractions


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1262 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
We can all play devil's advocate, but we've all been in those situations in one way or another. Coulda shoulda woulda makes no difference when you're in that awkward window and you have to floor it or slam on the brakes.

This is why these huge fines really irritate me. I get that a lot of people are terrible drivers and try and run the lights, but at the same time we're all humans, and sometimes we make mistakes. Usually for me it's just a moment of indecision where I can't quite pick whether to go or stop.

The idea of being punished for making a mistake really, really riles me for some reason. If you're going to charge anything over 100 dollars for a ticket, then the first offense should be a warning IMO (unless it's something which is actually dangerous like running the light by over a second or something).



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 26, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 25):
(unless it's something which is actually dangerous like running the light by over a second or something).

Bingo. Running a red light by a microsecond and running it by a second and a half are two COMPLETELY different things.

I'm seeing the whole "well you broke the law, sorry, suck it up" crowd but I don't like that mentality, and I would think a lot of them are less zero-tolerance-ish on other issues...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 27, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1823 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
There really is zero excuse for not being able to stop in a reasonable manner at a junction with lights.

That's fanciful idealism. We all know that every driver at some point or another will misjudge a traffic light. The question is how to safely and fairly deal with that reality.

Many U.S. communities have implemented red light cameras in a way that have no safety impact but clearly serve to generate traffic citation revenue. Some even make traffic less safe. For example:

- Reducing the yellow light interval to the absolute legal minimum
- Ticketing cars that make a legal right on red, but did not come to a complete stop for 3-5 seconds
- Moving stop lines back a few feet and then ticketing cars that roll-up to the old line

That sounds more like fraud than safety to me. I'm personally glad my community doesn't have red light cameras and instead uses sound traffic planning.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21523 posts, RR: 55
Reply 28, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
What sort of ridiculous timings do you have on your traffic lights in the US?

They vary. So you don't really know how long they last. Also, as has been mentioned, some areas have reduced their yellow light timings when red light cameras are around, which should make it pretty clear what the real purpose of the cameras is.

Like I said, I firmly believe that the vast majority of tickets issued by red light cameras, while technically a violation of the law, do not represent an unsafe situation.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
Regardless of how quickly you stop, if the driver behind you runs in to you, then he was too close.

Sure, but that's not going to change the fact that he ran into me, possibly damaging my car and injuring myself. I'd rather not have that happen at all.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 29, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
Regardless of how quickly you stop, if the driver behind you runs in to you, then he was too close.

And the person that rammed into me from behind and totalled my car was at fault*. Great. I'll run the red light rather than have my car totalled

*I wasn't at a red light when I got hit but I don't think it matters



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12217 posts, RR: 35
Reply 30, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1778 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

First off, that fine is ridiculous. That is more than a first time DUI costs here...

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
What it's really teaching is to slam on the brakes when you're unsure of whether you can make it through the intersectio

As many others have said. If you are going the speed limit, you will either have plenty of time to stop when the light turns yellow or safely make it into the intersection before it turns red.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
There really is zero excuse for not being able to stop in a reasonable manner at a junction with lights.

Other than inattentiveness

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):
In my own experience the degree to which I'm 'unsure' is directly proportional to my speed and level of desire to make the light! When driving somewhere near the speed limit and braking when the light turns I have had no problem stopping in time without drama. Based on previous topics I think it is fair to say that OP has a heavy foot  

Exactly. I am guilty of this myself, even in my cop car. One moment of inattentiveness, and I get close to running a red when I could easily have stopped on the yellow. Which is also why I give a lot of leeway before stopping a red light violation. It has to pretty blatant in order for me to stop you.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 31, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 30):
One moment of inattentiveness,

I don't know how many times I've looked up from some distraction and saw a yellow light and had absolutely no idea how long it's been yellow.

Whether I go through or come to an aggressive stop really depends on the situation. So many people, me included, take our driving cues from the car in front of us. I've found that if looks like I'm going to continue through an intersection, regardless of the color of the light, the person behind me is intent on occupying the spot he thinks I'm going to vacate.

If no one is behind me, I will usually err on the side of caution and bring the car to a stop as quickly and safely as possible. Occasionally, that puts me over the stop line.

If someone is behind me at a 'normal' following distance, I will usually go through the intersection.

Bu the way, anyone ever have the idiot behind you that thinks you should have gone through the yellow so that he could have gone through it (and the following red) also? Those are my favorite folks to watch get worked up in my mirror.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 32, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1743 times:

Here you´ll get fined and (under the old system) 3 penalty points for running a red light. If you reack 18 points, your driving licence will be gone for good (points expire after two years unless new points for fresh offenses were added).
The red light cameras in Germany turn live 1 or 2 seconds after the red light comes on. They take two pictures, so that if you stop your car just behind the line you won´t get punished, but if you cross the intersection during red light you will.

Jan


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 33, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1718 times:
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Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 3):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Is a $790 fine for a first time offense excessive?

Wow, that is steep but, localities in California need to make up their budget shortfalls, somehow.

That is a lot. I ran a red light in Dearborn, Michigan a couple of years ago and the fine was $125.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 22):
In my own experience the degree to which I'm 'unsure' is directly proportional to my speed and level of desire to make the light! When driving somewhere near the speed limit and braking when the light turns I have had no problem stopping in time without drama. Based on previous topics I think it is fair to say that OP has a heavy foot  

It can depend on the weather conditions and the condition of the vehicle. Here in Michigan, where we have no type of car inspection, you just can't assume the guy behind you has the ability to stop. You should see some of the stuff that comes in my shop for brake repair. If you can get it to move you can put a plate on it, insure it (for a day so you can get the license plate) and drive it. I wish California was closer, I could buy cars cheap in California, that won't pass inspection, and bring those rust free beauties here and make a fortune!

A buddy of mine and I got in a wreck in his car, last year, in the UK. His car was a write off, but in Michigan somebody would slap a radiator in it and drive it for years.


Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
Regardless of how quickly you stop, if the driver behind you runs in to you, then he was too close. Again, if you have to "slam" on the brakes, then you're going too fast for the circumstances.

I would prefer to not have them hit me at all, regardless of who's fault it is. In Michigan it doesn't matter anyway because we have no fault insurance. If my car gets wrecked my insurance company pays and my premiums go up, no matter who's fault the wreck is.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 34, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1707 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 33):
It can depend on the weather conditions and the condition of the vehicle. Here in Michigan, where we have no type of car inspection, you just can't assume the guy behind you has the ability to stop. You should see some of the stuff that comes in my shop for brake repair. If you can get it to move you can put a plate on it, insure it (for a day so you can get the license plate) and drive it. I wish California was closer, I could buy cars cheap in California, that won't pass inspection, and bring those rust free beauties here and make a fortune!

A buddy of mine and I got in a wreck in his car, last year, in the UK. His car was a write off, but in Michigan somebody would slap a radiator in it and drive it for years.

Haha, that is a good point. I forgot about some of the shitboxes I used to see tooling around the UP back in the day.

Here in NJ we have vehicle inspections...I haven't had to go through one yet and am curious to see how thorough they are.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 31):
Bu the way, anyone ever have the idiot behind you that thinks you should have gone through the yellow so that he could have gone through it (and the following red) also? Those are my favorite folks to watch get worked up in my mirror.

No kidding, it's like they want to drive your car too LOL.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 30):
Exactly. I am guilty of this myself, even in my cop car. One moment of inattentiveness, and I get close to running a red when I could easily have stopped on the yellow. Which is also why I give a lot of leeway before stopping a red light violation. It has to pretty blatant in order for me to stop you.

We can sure use a lot more of that kind of sense in any kind of law/regulation enforcement
  


User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 34):
Here in NJ we have vehicle inspections...I haven't had to go through one yet and am curious to see how thorough they are.

When we had inspections in OK they were a joke. The main issue was the inspection cost was set at $5 but was performed at private service stations. So the service station had one of two choices if they wanted to break even or make money on inspections: find something wrong with nearly every car or just put the inspection sticker on the windshield and move along. It simply wasn't worthwhile for them to complete a thorough inspection for $5.

As for red light cameras, I hate them. If the city cannot be bothered to have a live police officer writing tickets I don't think I should have to deal with a ticket. Last year I received a speeding ticket in Arizona from some automated camera system. They took a picture of my license plate and supposedly one of the driver (me). However, the driver picture was so blurry I couldn't even recognize who was driving at the time. I wrote back and told them as much and they ended up dropping the ticket. My gut feeling is that these private companies operate on volume. If they send out enough mail, a certain percentage of people will just pay the fine and move on. It is unlikely to be worthwhile for them to spend much time fighting.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 36, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Is a $790 fine for a first time offense excessive?

There is no way I would pay that. Take it to court. That is robbery for a very minor traffic infraction. If the judge is a jerk take it to the next level. I guess that would require an attorney to really know what you are doing so probably would not work unless you are one but $790 is INSANE! There is no judge in this country who should make you pay that fine.

That is the problem here in Florida every city which has red light cameras has to have their own appeal system it is no longer part of the court because the first notice you get is a "civil infraction" like a building code infraction. It has nothing to do with the courts, your car insurance etc.. That is because giving a criminal infraction by a red light camera would be unconstitutional in this state so of course the greedy, money caring politicians with help from the red light camera companies of course found a way to get it in anyway. It is ridiculous. One of the red light camera proponents who made it legal in Florida, family member works for one of the largest camera companies.

My girlfriend wrote a 30+ page law review article about how red light cameras are unconstitutional. I am so sick of them and they keep popping up everywhere. For what? For money.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Running a red light can have disastrous consequences, that fine is a lesson teacher.

$790?? That is not a lesson that is the state depriving him of his right to his own money that is all it is.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
The red light cameras in Germany turn live 1 or 2 seconds after the red light comes on.

This. This is the way it should be, if the politicians actually cared about safety. The people going through .8-1,2 seconds after it changed, those are the dangerous ones.

I recently got one too. The time the light turned red and the my car hit the line are just about equal. It is also key to mention there was not one other car on the road or near the intersection during the whole video.

Payment is due this week I need to decide what I want to do. I can pay the $158, much more reasonable or try the new appeal system where the person I will plead my case with is not a judge, not an attorney nothing just some person making $15 an hour for the city.

My issue with my ticket is that every camera here needs to be marked by a sign. The sign for this camera is over 300ft away from the actual intersection. Looking up the regulations for the Florida DOT for an urban area with a speed limit of 35mph any warning sign should not be more than 100-150ft away from the area it is warning of. The sign placement is clearly not correct but is it really worth my time? Who knows how they will schedule it, I am busy almost any day of the week.

Anyway red light cameras make me sick. IMO they are unconstitutional as I am not afforded the opportunity to confront my accuser the camera or the officer who viewed the video. But is something $15 an hour hearing officer with absolutely no law degree going to agree with that? I doubt it? I also doubt they will be able to follow along my argument based on several statutes and FL DOT regulations.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinegreasespot From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 3078 posts, RR: 20
Reply 37, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

One thing I have learned in 9 years of being a cop. Everyone has a legal reason why a ticket is not valid and most of those are recycled over the years. None of them are new just like the ideas I am hearing on here. People have been trying them since these things came into existence I have yet to see any of them work other than there was an error on the ticket. Remember well trained lawyers who specialize in traffic issues have fought these and lost.


I know red light tickets up here are completely a slam dunk if the plate is visible. Some jurisdictions will knock the fine in half if it is a first offense.

Now here we do not issue warrant for unpaid traffic tickets but I know in the USA a lot of places do. So if one is to ignore them do so at your own peril. Jail for everyday folks is not a pleasant experience.

People my not like red light cameras but they are legal. Contrary to what some here think(other than jurisdictions that had them suspended). They have been around for years and if the USSC thought they were not constitutional they would have taken up the case. That has not happened so to me that means they are or the USSC does not think this is a issue that is to be decided on by them and will leave it in the hands of the appeals court.

GS

oh and here the ticket is $345. Same as a standard police issued red light ticket.
and the 700 is crazy so it might be worth fighting it to even get a sympathetic judge. If it is similar to here judges can set to anything up to the maximum. So it could go down.



Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 38, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 36):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):Running a red light can have disastrous consequences, that fine is a lesson teacher.$790?? That is not a lesson that is the state depriving him of his right to his own money that is all it is.

If you run a red light, and get fined 790 bucks, and unless you are real dumb, you will learn a lesson. If not???



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 39, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
If you run a red light, and get fined 790 bucks, and unless you are real dumb, you will learn a lesson. If not???

If you're got shoplifting and you get 2 years in prison, you'd learn a lesson too. Punishment doesn't fit the crime



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 40, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1599 times:

Well if someone is tailing you that should be visible on the video. You can access the video ? That's fun, and unheard of here (even getting a still picture is a challenge, you have to first pay the fine, then fight it).

Red light cameras are pretty new and rare in France, but where I live we are at the forefront of everything, good (FTTH) and bad. My father got flashed by the first ever speed camera in the country, on the very first day it was operational !

So there is one such camera near my home. Looking at the thing, you know it's expensive and will need to earn its worth ! On the other hand it's put at a very complicated intersection where running a light could be relatively dangerous, expect you'd have to be crazy to do it, and other drivers should see you (good visibility as there are no buildings around).

Funnily enough there is a light I often run (on purpose) only a couple hundreds meters away. It's at a T intersection, with little traffic that could interfere (and perfectly visible), while the light itself can be very long.

Also near that spot I ran a yellow/red once while on a "rampage" in the middle on the night, and it happened that I passed in front of an unmarked hatch with 4 cowboys on board (also called Anti Criminality Brigade), they popped the police lights and chased me ! I stopped, and got a bit yelled at, but fortunately they think too much of themselves to actually ticket people !

The fine is not too high, 135€, less if paid quickly, however you lose 4 points out of 12 (young drivers start with only 6 points), and if caught by cops who decide you were reckless, you can lose your license on the spot, pending a court date where it could get suspended for up to 3 years !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
If you run a red light, and get fined 790 bucks, and unless you are real dumb, you will learn a lesson. If not???

It is an excesive punishment for the "crime." Here in Florida it is not a crime unless you don't pay the first "ticket" or "civil infraction" on time then all of a sudden like magic that "civil infraction" becomes a Uniformed Traffic Citation without a police officer or any other legal authority speaking to you.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 37):
People my not like red light cameras but they are legal. Contrary to what some here think(other than jurisdictions that had them suspended). They have been around for years and if the USSC thought they were not constitutional they would have taken up the case. That has not happened so to me that means they are or the USSC does not think this is a issue that is to be decided on by them and will leave it in the hands of the appeals court.

I have a constitutional right to confront my accuser in person. Red Light Cameras do not allow that to happen. The camera is not walking into my hearing is it? The officer who reviewed the tape and signed off that it was a violation is not walking into my hearing. So who do I confront? Myself? It is garbage. At least it is in Florida. I hope it goes up to the State Supreme Court one day. Reality is most people don't have the time and most lawyers are not going to waste the time because there is no money to be made and no one going to jail.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 37):
One thing I have learned in 9 years of being a cop.

I passed the line 000.1 seconds after the light turned red according to my video, actually going under the speed limit. One of the few times I go under the limit on that road. Is that ticket worthy to a person with a completely clean driving record? I would hope most officers would be understanding in that situation. Most officers might not even be able to testify that they were 100% certain I even illegaly ran the light given there was a 00.1 second difference from it being legal or not. All these cameras do is make money. If it was about safety it would be like Germany. Take a picture .8 or 1 second after the light turns red when there is an actual danger.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 42, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
If you're got shoplifting and you get 2 years in prison, you'd learn a lesson too. Punishment doesn't fit the crime

This is true, but shoplifting is a minor offense that will not kill someone. Running a red light can lead to tragedy, deaths, maiming, lifelong affects. So the fine is high, and just might save someone from doing it again, and therefor possible averting a personal tragedy for the driver and his victims. I myself have been guilty of pushing a red light. I certainly do not in Providence which has the cameras. I have learned a lesson, have I not? Also , it is not so much the money in the fine, it is the affects of the violation on ones license and insurance.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 43, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 42):
Running a red light can lead to tragedy, deaths, maiming, lifelong affects.

Blatantly running a red light by a second or two can lead to tragedy, deaths, maiming, lifelong affects. Running a red light on accident by .1 seconds won't. I'm not even against red light cameras... put them at problem intersections and go after the egregious offenders. By then, though, it probably won't be worth the money



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 44, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 42):
Also , it is not so much the money in the fine, it is the affects of the violation on ones license and insurance.

Well in Florida the Red Light Infraction if paid on time does not and cannot in anyway affect ones drivers licenses or insurance when paid on time. So basically the state is telling people with disposal income of $158 don't need to worry. Poor people, well they are just screwed.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 42):
This is true, but shoplifting is a minor offense that will not kill someone. Running a red light can lead to tragedy, deaths, maiming, lifelong affects. So the fine is high, and just might save someone from doing it again, and therefor possible averting a personal tragedy for the driver and his victims. I myself have been guilty of pushing a red light. I certainly do not in Providence which has the cameras. I have learned a lesson, have I not?

All these cameras do is make money. If it was about safety it would be like Germany. Take a picture .8 or 1 second after the light turns red when there is an actual danger. I don't think it is possible to kill someone going into the intersection 00.1 seconds after the light turned red.

And one more thing to my red light camera. The due date falls on a Sunday. Completely not allowed for any type of legal documents in Florida. But I doubt anyone doing these tickets knows that.

[Edited 2013-10-22 18:32:23]


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 45, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1588 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
Running a red light on accident by .1 seconds won't. I'm not even against red light cameras... put them at problem intersections and go after the egregious offenders. By then, though, it probably won't be worth the money

Red light violations and the resulting accidents were so common in Providence, the police could not possibly enforce the law. They would have to station an officer there 24 hours a day at some intersections. After the clubs close, in certain neighborhoods, it was mayhem, along came the technology to enforce it by remote cameras. A money maker for sure, but also a lesson taught. As I said, I learned a lesson from them, and I have never been ticketed by them. Cross fingers.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 46, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 45):
Red light violations and the resulting accidents were so common in Providence, the police could not possibly enforce the law. They would have to station an officer there 24 hours a day at some intersections. After the clubs close, in certain neighborhoods, it was mayhem, along came the technology to enforce it by remote cameras. A money maker for sure, but also a lesson taught. As I said, I learned a lesson from them, and I have never been ticketed by them. Cross fingers.

Like I said, I'm all for red light cameras at problem intersections. The wide spread and very picky red light cameras are no good IMO. Think we are arguing two different things



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 47, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 44):
Well in Florida the Red Light Infraction if paid on time does not and cannot in anyway affect ones drivers licenses or insurance when paid on time. So basically the state is telling people with disposal income of $158 don't need to worry. Poor people, well they are just screwed.

I would have to check, but as far as I know my insurance company does not give a hoot how you got the ticket, it is a ticket, and can be held against you here. You pay the fine, and then deal with your insurance company. Does not everything affect the poor more than others?



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 48, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 47):
Does not everything affect the poor more than others?

Of course. But there is not other way to do it and all of a sudden not having enough money increases the penalty, makes it a criminal matter, and broadens the affects of the ticket. All because they don't have enough money. The law is treating two different types of people differently. You have money you are good, you don't you are not.
If you are poor or rich if a cop gives you an actual red light ticket the fine is the same, the procedure is the same. That is not the case with this system we have in Florida. It brings up an equal protection argument IMO.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 47):
I would have to check, but as far as I know my insurance company does not give a hoot how you got the ticket, it is a ticket, and can be held against you here. You pay the fine, and then deal with your insurance company

Ok and that might be how it works in Rhode Island sure. Now I am telling you the law in Florida. As long as the "ticket" is paid on time it is not a traffic ticket. It is a civil infraction which has absolutely nothing to do with my drivers license. My insurance company has absolutely no idea I got this infraction and as long as I pay it on time or fight it and win they will never know. It is not on any record what so ever and the fine never increases for repeat offenders.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 49, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1564 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Like I said, I'm all for red light cameras at problem intersections. The wide spread and very picky red light cameras are no good IMO. Think we are arguing two different things

I may have been arguing without reading thoroughly. Not good.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 50, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1565 times:

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 49):
I may have been arguing without reading thoroughly. Not good.

Easy to do. When most people hear "running a red light" we think of someone seeing the light turn red, say screw it, and blast on through. Someone like me has a different perspective since I almost had to pay for one, so I can easily the confusion.

My boring story, skip if you don't want to read it:

Like flymia was mentioning, it was a minor ticket that turned into a citation since I was moving around all the time in flight school and didn't feel like updating (and paying) for a new license every few months. So they kept sending the ticket to the address I was at 2 address ago then somehow found out my home of record (my parents' house) and sent it there, but by that time, the time elapsed and it became a citation (talking FL here.) I was upset and I just wanted it bumped down to the normal ticket, I had a semi-good excuse but I was still in the wrong, but why not try? I wasn't going to try and fight it in court because I'd have to fly to FL and I was then in TX. The receptionist lady didn't care about my pleas and told me I could call the guy in charge of it (an actual police officer.) I called him, told him I wanted to talk about the ticket, and without even hearing my story just asked my name and removed the ticket. Have no idea why but I wasn't complaining, shut up, and thanked him afterwards. Sometimes, just simply asking for something will get you what you want. Very fortunate



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineWarRI1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 8845 posts, RR: 10
Reply 51, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
Like flymia was mentioning, it was a minor ticket that turned into a citation since I was moving around all the time in flight school and didn't feel like updating (and paying) for a new license every few months. So they kept sending the ticket to the address I was at 2 address ago then somehow found out my home of record (my parents' house) and sent it there, but by that time, the time elapsed and it became a citation (talking FL here.) I was upset and I just wanted it bumped down to the normal ticket, I had a semi-good excuse but I was still in the wrong, but why not try? I wasn't going to try and fight it in court because I'd have to fly to FL and I was then in TX. The receptionist lady didn't care about my pleas and told me I could call the guy in charge of it (an actual police officer.) I called him, told him I wanted to talk about the ticket, and without even hearing my story just asked my name and removed the ticket. Have no idea why but I wasn't complaining, shut up, and thanked him afterwards. Sometimes, just simply asking for something will get you what you want.

You are either very good with words, or damn lucky.



It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6530 posts, RR: 9
Reply 52, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1504 times:

About 15 years ago the way to do it here was to provide a bottle of good wine or scotch to the right person, my parents did it once for a red light !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 497 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (9 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Quoting greasespot (Reply 37):
One thing I have learned in 9 years of being a cop. Everyone has a legal reason why a ticket is not valid and most of those are recycled over the years.

I couldn't be a police officer because I think my head would explode listening to excuses and lies all day long. That being said as a police officer what is your view on communities that do the following?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 27):
- Reducing the yellow light interval to the absolute legal minimum
- Ticketing cars that make a legal right on red, but did not come to a complete stop for 3-5 seconds
- Moving stop lines back a few feet and then ticketing cars that roll-up to the old line

From my own personal experience when the ¡¡¡FLASH!!! goes off right next to you it is not pleasant. There is a red light camera on my daily commute and it flashes frequently a car or two behind me when the light is changing. Scares the crap out of me but *knock on wood* I haven't gotten anything in the mail so I doubt it was flashing for me. We used to have photo radar cameras on our freeways here in Phoenix. Even though I had the cruise control set at the speed limit it would still stop my heart for a few seconds seeing the flash. It was a safety initiative from former Gov. Napolitano, she became DHS Secretary right after that. One was placed off the approach end to Sky Harbor runway 7L lined up with the approach flashing lights . . . yeah that was safe   There was another one on Loop 101 near Glendale Airport I mistook at night for other aircraft in the pattern more than once.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (9 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1261 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 36):
My girlfriend wrote a 30+ page law review article about how red light cameras are unconstitutional. I am so sick of them and they keep popping up everywhere.

There are plenty of problems with how they have been implemented but let's not forget that running red lights is a problem causing a lot of accidents here.

Ever driven out from Star Islands towards the beach? I have seen so many accidents I wait until there are stopped cars in all lanes or no cars driving down MacArthur. I've lost track of how many times I've seen them hit the stopped cars.

Quoting flymia (Reply 48):
But there is not other way to do it

There is. Some countries set fines based on your income. Ever so often you hear about a guy in Finland getting a few hundred thousand Euro speeding ticket because of it.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 55, posted (9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1166 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):

It's the great American Governmental money grab. At least in Maryland they are spreading faster than genital herpes on your average stripper! But thank God as of yet a first offense isn't the ludacrous sum of $790 like in California.
Red Light cameras are beneficial in maybe a handful of dangerous intersections. Otherwise it's as I've said a money grab. In Maryland we also have speed cameras and cameras in construction work zones. Several years ago one of the few legislaters in our state with half a brain proposed the work zone cameras only be operational when there were workers on duty at the construction sight. The rest of them voted it down so even if the work zone area is perfectly safe say late night or weekends you still can get zapped and your fine doubles. It's all about the $$$



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 56, posted (9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 55):
It's the great American Governmental money grab.

Let's not forget they only grab money from those failing to follow the law. It is pretty hypercritical to complain about them not letting people break the law.


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2598 posts, RR: 5
Reply 57, posted (9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1079 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
Regardless of how quickly you stop, if the driver behind you runs in to you, then he was too close



OK. So, the driver behind me didn't stop. The rear end of my car is ruined, I suffered a whiplash and all my plans for the near future are ruined. So how exactly will the knowledge that someone else caused the accident help me?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
If you're approaching a junction with lights, you should always be prepared to stop.



So you are one of those braking when approaching a green light?

Quoting moo (Reply 19):
What sort of ridiculous timings do you have on your traffic lights in the US?



Not USA, but we have a few very weirdly timed intersections here in YXU, where the amber signal is too short for the width of intersecting streets.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
The red light cameras in Germany turn live 1 or 2 seconds after the red light comes on.



2 seconds at 50 km/h gives a driver enough time to clear most intersections if he/she entered right when the signal turned red. That filters out the "late brakers" and leaves only those who really ran the red light.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 37):
They have been around for years and if the USSC thought they were not constitutional they would have taken up the case. That has not happened so to me that means they are or the USSC does not think this is a issue that is to be decided on by them and will leave it in the hands of the appeals court.



What good would any complaint do? The street racing law was declared unconstitutional by two judges and the police is continuing laying charges based on it. If the law enforcement is ignoring the court's decisions, there is zero help for the citizen.


User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1072 times:

Overall I just am more irritated by the excessive fine. I am still struggling financially from missing a month of work when my father passed away this summer, add in his final expenses and medical bills this additional fine is really devistating to me. Next time I see a yellow light I will slam on my brakes with all my force, if someone rear ends me thats their problem.
If the state of California wants to take food off my plate so be it. But for a first offense and running it by .001 of a second is insane.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12217 posts, RR: 35
Reply 59, posted (9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1043 times:
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Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 58):
Overall I just am more irritated by the excessive fine.

Which makes sense. Sounds like you realize you messed up and ran the light, but I agree, that fine is ridiculous. Come run red lights in ND instead, they're only $20 here



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 60, posted (9 months 19 hours ago) and read 986 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 56):

Yes but, many of these red light cameras malfunction and conveniently err on the side of grabbing you guilty or not.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 61, posted (9 months 19 hours ago) and read 983 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 60):
Yes but, many of these red light cameras malfunction and conveniently err on the side of grabbing you guilty or not.

Just because it takes a picture of you doesn't mean you're guilty. They have officers that review the pictures and throw away the false hits. There isn't much gray area... it will show, in the picture, a red light and then your vehicle... whether your vehicle is in a legal position or not is pretty easy to determine, and with a red light shown in the picture, there isn't much argument for "malfunctioning cameras."



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 62, posted (9 months 18 hours ago) and read 960 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 61):

The issue at hand in many cases is time before camera clicks. In Maryland, I believe you have to fight it in court and they are not reviewed. So most people just bite the pillow and pony up the fine because of the court costs, lost time from work etc. And, at least in this state, busses and trucks have gone through the red lights/speed zones and gotten photographed and the government looks the other way. There was even a video of a schoolbus flying through a red light and the camera grabbing it and nothing happened.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 63, posted (9 months 15 hours ago) and read 949 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 60):
Yes but, many of these red light cameras malfunction and conveniently err on the side of grabbing you guilty or not.

How common is it really?


User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 64, posted (9 months 6 hours ago) and read 914 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 60):
Yes but, many of these red light cameras malfunction and conveniently err on the side of grabbing you guilty or not.

Do you have a statistic on that?

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 62):
In Maryland, I believe you have to fight it in court

As far as I know, if you decide to fight any moving violation, in any state, you're going to court or the traffic equivalent of it.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 65, posted (9 months 4 hours ago) and read 892 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 61):
Just because it takes a picture of you doesn't mean you're guilty. They have officers that review the pictures and throw away the false hits. There isn't much gray area... it will show, in the picture, a red light and then your vehicle... whether your vehicle is in a legal position or not is pretty easy to determine, and with a red light shown in the picture, there isn't much argument for "malfunctioning cameras."

True. But really who is watching this process. What guidelines does the officer have to follow. I guarantee the officer won't be giving any police cars tickets going through red lights.

I have a friend who got a red light violation when he went through the light during a funeral procession which is of course legal. He got the ticket anyway. Guess the cop was not paying attention to that video even though he signed off on it. My friend got a hand written letter from the police chief apologizing for the violation. It is clear no one was actually paying attention, and this is a town known for their speed traps and ridiculous enforcement of traffic laws. Money, Money, Money. That is what it is about.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7830 posts, RR: 52
Reply 66, posted (9 months 3 hours ago) and read 884 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 65):
True. But really who is watching this process. What guidelines does the officer have to follow. I guarantee the officer won't be giving any police cars tickets going through red lights.

I'm sure they are biased towards people. A lot of people who are friends with cops will get the cop to talk to the officer that reviews the red light violations and get them removed. And yes, there will be cases where the cops will make mistakes, that is what traffic court is for. It's a huge pain and it pisses me off that you'd have to go through all that pain, but it's legal.

I'm all for removing them except for at trouble intersections or only for cars that blatantly run red lights. It's just not as arbitrary as zippyjet is saying... if it is, I would hope the citizens of BWI (?) would be raising hell because the police shouldn't be getting away with that



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 67, posted (9 months 2 hours ago) and read 874 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 65):
I guarantee the officer won't be giving any police cars tickets going through red lights.

As, I'm pretty sure, no police officer would pull over a police car going through a red light.

Quoting flymia (Reply 65):
Money, Money, Money.

Yup. That, and safety...but, definitely money going into the city's coffers. Just like any other moving violation. Just like any parking ticket. This is just a different mode of bringing in the money.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7123 posts, RR: 9
Reply 68, posted (9 months 2 hours ago) and read 866 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 66):
I'm all for removing them except for at trouble intersections or only for cars that blatantly run red lights. It's just not as arbitrary as zippyjet is saying... if it is, I would hope the citizens of BWI (?) would be raising hell because the police shouldn't be getting away with that

Agreed. I say keep them where ever they want but they should be going to people running lights in a dangerous fashion. Such as entering the intersection .8-1 seconds after the light turns red. Not 0.1 seconds.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 67):
Yup. That, and safety...but, definitely money going into the city's coffers. Just like any other moving violation. Just like any parking ticket. This is just a different mode of bringing in the money.

True. This just makes it much easier for the city to do it. I agree safety has something to do with it but when cities get rid of the cameras because they ended up not making any money and costing more than they were making. It has happened here in Miami I doubt how much safety really has to do with it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 66):
And yes, there will be cases where the cops will make mistakes, that is what traffic court is for.

Of course everyone makes mistakes. But my friend's example was not a mistake, that was just not watching the video and signing off on it anyway. And the problem with the system in Florida is there is no traffic court unless you want to not pay the fine and get a late fee and then get a ticket. It is a "hearing" with a "hearing officer" its insane if you ask me. But the county courts were so filled up with these red light tickets that the judges had a enough and told the cities to figure it out if they wanted to keep giving them out like candy on Halloween.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineFr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5358 posts, RR: 14
Reply 69, posted (9 months 2 hours ago) and read 862 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 68):
I agree safety has something to do with it but when cities get rid of the cameras because they ended up not making any money and costing more than they were making. It has happened here in Miami I doubt how much safety really has to do with it.

No, you need to look at the economics of the thing.

We can put a cop on every corner and reduce running a red light to just about zero, but that would be too expensive.

Same things with these cameras. Maybe not enough people were running red lights to make the cameras pay off (that means people were being "safe"). Maybe the cameras did their job and reduced the infraction to the point where it was costing too much money to keep the cameras in place (again, people being "safe"). Maybe, the contractor demanded too much money at contract renewal (the cost of "safety" was too high).

Whichever way it went down, the city decided that the marginal increase in safety wasn't worth the price of the contract.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
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