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Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA  
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13095 posts, RR: 12
Posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

Over the last several years, we had all heard of sensational media stores of cases of rape of teen and college aged women. Most recently a Kansas City newspaper (the Star) put out a story of a 14 year old female that earlier this year had had raped, apparently after getting drunk, and left for dead in her home front yard on a cold night in a town in Missouri and that some in that town making her the bad person instead of the rapists. Last year it was Sandusky, Ohio where a teen woman was severely drunk and raped by a number of men. Two years ago a HS Cheerleader who refused to cheer the name of a basketball player who she claims raped her and she got kicked off the team instead of the basketball player. Almost all colleges have had rapes on their campuses or in their communities of students and problems with the victims made victims again, dropping out as their alleged rapist was still allowed on campus. Too many women had killed themselves, been psychologically ruined, unable to have good relationships with men due to rape.

So, how do we deal with trying to reduce the rate of rape of teen and college aged woman? There have been a number of articles over the last weeks on Huffington Post, ESPN.com, Slate.com and so on that have led to some suggestions, and a lot of arguments over the pros and cons of what can be done from victim blaming to not enough blame of the attackers. Those articles and comments seem to bring out several threads including:

Alcohol use/abuse, drugging of beverages, (especially of those under 21), that drinking puts a woman at risk, so should go to any parties or at least not alone or even drink at all or only from sealed containers (like bottled/canned beer).

The disporportinate numbers of men who are alleged to have raped who are on Football or Basketball or on other sports teams, and seem to get away with it so not to lose the player.

In colleges, certain dorm areas and Fraternity houses are at higher risk of rapes occurring

That some rapists may have parents who are politically connected or have the money to hire lawyer to make sure their soon is protected. Few of the raped women have such resources.

How, and made worse with social media and texting, the bullying or 'slut' calling of victims by peers for their claims of rape.

The lack of backbone or fear of lawsuits that make HS and college administrators not want to enforce laws and rules as to assaults or alcohol use.

Parents who don't do their job to keep the HS aged kids away from the parties or alcohol, or even sponsor parties in violation of laws against serving minors alcohol.

Young men not taught sexual responsibility by their parents, giving in to peer pressure to have sex, even rape so don't be seen as 'gay' or a jerk or having underlying mental issue that may make them want to rape.

So do you here have any ideas on how we (men and women) on what we can do to reduced the rate of rape of young women ?

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Over the last several years, we had all heard of sensational media stores of cases of rape of teen and college aged women.

Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
victim blaming to not enough blame of the attackers.

I am tired of treading lightly in this debate. I'm usually forced into silence because even touching this subject causes a bunch of angry responses. I am 100% against putting blame on the victim BUT it's to the point now where even if you give girls/women helpful tips like going to parties with a friend, not jogging at night alone, etc I get the whole "why are you telling ME how to act!? Tell the guys to stop raping women!" We do tell guys to not rape women. The advice given is very helpful and not always common sense, and the whole angry feedback is akin to me telling you to lock your doors... "why do I have to lock my doors? Tell the criminals not to rob me!"

That's just what I've encountered. Can't give any good advice because someone thinks I'm blaming a victim for getting raped which is absurd. Sorry, rant off. I'm sure a few of yall have had similar experiences

Another thought provoking idea is the notion that we should "change society's acceptance of violence towards women." Sounds great, but how do we do that? Legislate against violent movies (a violation of free speech.) ? Is it through awareness campaigns? Honest question



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1356 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

One of biggest problems with this is the fact that america is rife with Rape Culture. At the same time, we've done a decent job of criminalizing the behavior. So where does that leave us?

One thing I'm picking up on (and this certainly isn't a criticism of your position) is that Victim Blaming and Slut Shaming are alive and well enough here that even your OP makes mention of the fact that some of these women were drunk. I think that's honestly a non-factor, but it really seems like a lot of media attempts to mitigate rape by mentioning this. I think the tone, intended or otherwise, that "well that's what can happen when you're drunk" is a problem right there.

Sorry, I don't have anything useful to tell you, buy when a whole culture is that tolerant of this problem, it really does look like it's a socially systemic issue.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

Many "rapes" are not actually rapes. Unfortunately, higher education is full of man-hating feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1356 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2181 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

First off, I see what you did there. Very clever.

Secondly, I agree that we really have muddied the waters by glamorizing a certain level of victimhood for some of the drama queens out there, and between that and some of the most assinine implied consent laws being implemented, I totally see where you are coming from.

However, I do believe that points of views, as expressed by md90 there, that tsk tsk rape victims as an opt out instead of acknowleding that a crime occurred, do more harm than good. And that goes for everyone, not just the crime victims in question.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7893 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
I think that's honestly a non-factor

It is absolutely 100% not a drunk woman's fault she got raped, you are correct. BUT, and again, I am putting on my flame suit, in addition to helping the victim out in every way we can and not guilting her into anything, we can tell all the other women the facts: be careful when you get drunk. You can, by no fault of your own, get raped if you are not careful. It's like getting rear-ended in a car... the other person is at fault but your car is still all jacked up. Not really a win on your part.

I won't deny that victim blaming does indeed happen, I should have made myself clear. I'm just under the belief we can foster a culture where women can dress and do what they want but they do so in a safe manner and take good precautions that avoid crimes that we will never remove from society, no matter how hard we try (and that's not a cop out, we can do what I mentioned in conjunction with tackling the rape problem on the perpetrator side as well.) Going back to my analogy, if someone gets burglarized and we comfort them and recommend a security system, we are by no means blaming the victim for not having a security system and getting burglarized, and we absolutely prefer that people wouldn't go breaking into homes, but wishing is a pretty poor precaution, I'll settle on locks and security systems.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes.

I don't want to go to one extreme or the other (not all rapes are rapes, true, but there are still plenty of rapes) but what boggles me is when two people get intoxicated and they have sex and then after the fact, one of them says they were drunk and it wasn't consensual. Well technically, the alleged rapist was drunk to so that person couldn't consent either. Again, I'm not saying that every girl that accuses someone of rape just got drunk and regretted it the next morning, but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1356 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
and again, I am putting on my flame suit,

I'm about to disagree with the hell out of you, but I don't think we're worrying about flamming here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
we can tell all the other women the facts: be careful when you get drunk. You can, by no fault of your own, get raped if you are not careful. It's like getting rear-ended in a car... the other person is at fault but your car is still all jacked up.

But it still sends the wrong message, for a couple of reasons. First of all, guilt removed or not, we're still telling a woman that the burden of her not getting raped falls to her. I understand fully that intoxication makes rape more possible. Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted. That's unexcusable, and represents a foreseeable and preventable failure on society's part.

Secondly, and less importantly, I'm not down with the notion that a provocatively dressed, drunken woman has the ability (that a sober, conservatively dressed one doesn't) to alter the level of self control needed to not rape someone. As men (and I say that since this is a.net, and there aren't many broads here), we should be thoroughly outraged by the notion that we could somehow be reduced to animal behavior simply by altering a few stimuli.

Including mention of a rape victim being intox'ed at the time sends a very disquieting message along those lines.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but wishing is a pretty poor precaution,

And how is telling a woman 'watch out when you get drunk' different to this? They point of the OP (and he's right about this IMO) is that we have a big problem with Rape Culture in the US, and that's what needs to be addressed. I'm not going to tell you I have any answers there, but I know what's not one.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but what boggles me is when two people get intoxicated and they have sex and then after the fact, one of them says they were drunk and it wasn't consensual.

Yeah, I'm really not sure about the legality of that. Sounds like a mess.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Again, I'm not saying that every girl that accuses someone of rape just got drunk and regretted it the next morning, but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

The burden of proof for rape is already pretty high. Consider what someone who's been raped has to go through to get an assailant to the trial phase. It's not pretty.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineoly720man From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 6705 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

Education, education, education.

If kids are growing up with the mentality that you have sex as soon as possible, and peer pressure, media prurience, ready availability of porn, questionable behaviour of "role models" and the macho-jock ethos all add fuel to the fire, it's not really a surprise that some will act on their urges and these rapes are occurring. .If you have few or no "boundaries" and can't discriminate between what I'll loosely call entertainment and what you may see as having sex is the thing to do, regardless, then what's to stop you?



wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5486 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2039 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there

Does it matter?

One rape is too many, and if the media are 'sensationalizing' the issue then that puts more attention on the issue. For example, to take the case in Missouri cited by the OP, this has drawn attention because somebody in the outside world found out that the attackers were not going to be charged, and made a fuss about it. Whether word spreads by traditional media or social media, that is a good thing.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes

Actually the opposite. Many sexual encounters which are rape are "excused" by a culture that blames the women for being drunk etc.

PLEASE LET'S BE CLEAR: Contrary to what the media sometimes has you believe, rape is NOT the act of dragging somebody into a dark alley kicking and screaming and forcing yourself on them; it is any sexual conduct that is not consented to, or in which one party was legally incapable of providing consent.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

This is something that the media does sensationalise out of all proportion.

Courts don't forget the burden of proof, which is why the victim often bares almost the entire evidential burden. Often the only witness is the victim, so if the accused pleads not guilty then the victim's evidence basically has to prosecute them single handedly. This places immense pressure and emotional strain on the victim. In most cases their recollections of the event are quite hazy, and it can be relatively easy for the defence attorney to trip them up with inconsistencies or pick wholes in their testimony. There is also the "shame" factor, which precludes many victims from coming forward, or then declining to press charges when they discover that they would be required to confess intimate sexual details in court.

It is simply an unfortunate reality of our justice system that it is tipped slightly in favor of the attacker. The presumption of innocence until proven guilty is a fundamental human right, and I could never advocate it be taken away from anyone, but the criminal justice system should consider how they run sexual assault trials. Even just having the trial behind closed doors and suppressing the court records could make a difference.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4590 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

So let's bring some fact into this.

At least in the US, rapes have been declining as a percentage of the population and in overall numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics


I think education, and the proliferation of Smartphones can be attributed to this fact. Folks are more active on social media, and their friends know where they are.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
One rape is too many, and if the media are 'sensationalizing' the issue then that puts more attention on the issue. For example, to take the case in Missouri cited by the OP, this has drawn attention because somebody in the outside world found out that the attackers were not going to be charged, and made a fuss about it. Whether word spreads by traditional media or social media, that is a good thing.

Media sensationalism has it's problems too though. There have been many cases where the alleged perpetrators were tried in the media, before in court, and their cases were bungled by the Prosecuting attorney's. Take a read of "Duke Lacross"

Rape is also a stigma, and in some cases I think a lot of victim's do not come forward, and I think it allows some folks to go on and commit more crimes. They have their reasons, and I think a lot has to do with the issues of burden of proof, and having seen cases such as the cheerleader one from above where nothing good came out of it for the accuser. It is usually no surprise in big cases of abuse to have 2 or more victim's step forward after a high profile complain it filed.


However Education and awareness are key, and I think that there need to be real discussions about rape in sex ed classes as young as middle school.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem?

I don't think it is either. I think it is a sign that society is finally starting to address something that has always been there.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is it through awareness campaigns? Honest question

Partially it is. Removing the stigma around reporting it is important.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes. Unfortunately, higher education is full of man-hating feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

Please define many. Is it most? Is it half? Is it 10%? Most modern reports I know talk about a few percent with some specific segments in the 10% rate. In my mind making a big fuzz about false accusations is an attempt to ignore the big problem.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I am 100% against putting blame on the victim BUT it's to the point now where even if you give girls/women helpful tips like going to parties with a friend, not jogging at night alone, etc I get the whole "why are you telling ME how to act!? Tell the guys to stop raping women!"

I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do. I read an article the other day about how women shouldn't get drunk at parties, because it can lead to them getting raped. Fair enough. Yet in the same article, it mentioned that men often use being drunk as a defense for raping ("I'd had a few beers, I didn't know what I was doing", etc.). Well then how about we also tell men to not get drunk at parties, since their judgement might get clouded and they might do something that hurts someone else or that they'd otherwise regret? I don't hear much of that going around, certainly not as much as we're telling women not to drink too much (to the article author's credit, she did mention it, if only briefly). And yet I'd bet that it would have just as much of an effect on the number of rapes and sexual assaults as women not drinking too much.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
We do tell guys to not rape women.

We do. We also glorify having sex, so there are some very mixed messages there.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted. That's unexcusable, and represents a foreseeable and preventable failure on society's part.

  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3303 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1953 times:
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Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes. Unfortunately, higher education is full of man-hating feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

It doesn't matter. If someone feels physically or emotionally violated by something sexual, then it's abuse at the very least, and can easily be classified as rape. There are many cases of a woman saying she was raped, and the man saying, "Oh come on, that wasn't rape." Emotionally violating someone is less "obvious" but is just as bad as physically violating someone. I won't go into details, but it took a very hard lesson for me to learn that and I will always regret the outcome.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 7):
Education, education, education.

This is a big part of it, yes, but the culture in general is messed up. I consider myself well-educated and I gre up in a family very open about sex, respect, love, and the rest of it. But growing up here in the USA, I've been subject to media and peer experiences that sometimes glorify rape (among men) and even excuse it (among both men and women). The underlying cause is cultural, not solely a result of parenting or education. Pornography obviously is to blame for some of it, but I won't go so far as to condemn it as a cause.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
it is any sexual conduct that is not consented to, or in which one party was legally incapable of providing consent.

Exactly. Rape doesn't even have to include intercourse itself. Another misconception is that there cannot be rape in a committed, long-term relationship (or marriage). Just because you're "with" someone, doesn't mean you have their consent automatically. And yet, if a woman claimed her husband raped her, the onus of proof would be on her and I don't know of a court of law anywhere who would convict the husband. As it stands, only 30% of rapists even get charged (it my be lower), and that's only among those who get report, which is a minuscule percentage of actual assailants.

TIS



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User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7155 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1949 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there
Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
They point of the OP (and he's right about this IMO) is that we have a big problem with Rape Culture in the US, and that's what needs to be addressed.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
At least in the US, rapes have been declining as a percentage of the population and in overall numbers.

Exactly. I am not saying its not a problem but we all know what the media can do to make things look a lot worse. Look no farther than the "summer of sharks" or the year of "airline emergency landings" the media can make anything look like a epidemic. How about that crazy swine flu? We have a problem in the U.S. because there is a large amount of rapes but it is not worse than it was years ago.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
that even your OP makes mention of the fact that some of these women were drunk. I think that's honestly a non-factor, but it really seems like a lot of media attempts to mitigate rape by mentioning this.

It is a factor. It is not an excuse for the accused rapist but you can't say its not a factor. Everything is a factor.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
ut it still sends the wrong message, for a couple of reasons. First of all, guilt removed or not, we're still telling a woman that the burden of her not getting raped falls to her. I understand fully that intoxication makes rape more possible. Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted. That's unexcusable, and represents a foreseeable and preventable failure on society's part.

That is like saying I should leave my doors unlocked, and not turn my alarm on because the burden of not being robbed is not on me its on the robbers. Lets me real here. A woman's chances of being raped is significantly more than any man has the chance of being raped. That is just the way it is. Is that a problem? Yes, we all wish rapes would decline. Which they are. But we can't sit here and not give advice on how to avoid just because it is not fair. If the girls want to drink a lot, bring friends.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do. I read an article the other day about how women shouldn't get drunk at parties, because it can lead to them getting raped. Fair enough.

I tell my girlfriend to try not to walk alone in a parking lot at night, or go to an ATM alone at night. Myself, I would. You think this is wrong advice?
Lets be real here there is a big difference between men and women when it comes to being targets of crimes. Its statistics and physical vulnerability. No one should go get wasted anywhere, especially without being with other friends but again I don't see why it would be unfair advice to tell a woman not to do it alone as when looking at the statistics she would be much more likely to be a victim of a crime alone and drunk than a man who is alone and drunk is. We should not fight statistics just because we want to be "fair" the world is not fair.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

I am going to have to disagree with you there (rarely happens), the courts and prosecutors offices certainly know their burden of proof and for that reason many rape cases are never prosecuted because it would be irresponsible to do so. Is that a bad situation for he victim? Yes, but sometimes you just can't go forward with a case no matter the crime. It would just not be ethical to do so.

I have dealt with rape cases before in some of the agencies I have worked for while in law school. The vast majority of the cases the victim was not at fault at all. There were a few cases though which were pleaded out where the victim was young, and after what I thought was consensual actions the female would plead rape. Why? Well in my honest opinion their parents found out. Is it really rape when you get in a car with two male friends, knowingly skip school, knowingly go to one of the friends home, one of the men was your so called boyfriend, and then claim rape days later. The story just did not add up.

A guy I know got into trouble overseas when two young females claimed him and his friends raped them. It was a pretty well known case in Miami. End result. Every security camera footage there was showed the two females having a blast with the guys, and the girls wanting the guys to come into their hotel room. Guess who found out about this the next day. Their father. And this was not the first time these two girls claimed to be raped before either.

I know the above cases are exceptions not the norm. But every case is different and that is why sometimes we can't prosecute every claim.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We do. We also glorify having sex, so there are some very mixed messages there.

If someone sees rape and having sex as the same thing they have some major problems.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5486 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
Media sensationalism has it's problems too though

I understand entirely what you are saying, and if nothing else then media sensationalism has the potential to incite the "she was asking for it" brigade. That said, more airtime being given to the issue can hopefully raise awareness of it over the long term.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
think it is a sign that society is finally starting to address something that has always been there.

  

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
Rape doesn't even have to include intercourse itself

  

It does vary jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but as a rule then yes.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
Another misconception is that there cannot be rape in a committed, long-term relationship (or marriage)

Don't get me started on that kettle of fish! This is one area in which we need to seriously raise awareness, as in many cases victims aren't aware that their spouse is acting illegally and that they have rights.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineStarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting oly720man (Reply 7):
Education, education, education.



I hope this education will include personnel responsiblity!! Kids and young adults are not being held accountable for their actions anymore. It's always someone elses fault that and individual did something bad, never their own.

I truely agree with education, but personnel responsibility and morality need to be a big part of that.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6618 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1917 times:

Education is key here, both sexual and alcohol-related. The 21 yo limit for alcohol just means it's even cooler to drink since it's illegal, totally counterproductive.

As for the drunk factor in rape, don't forget the guy can also be drunk. Having drunk sex and claiming rape afterwards can happen, I've seen it first hand. I've also stopped a guy who was clearly not drunk from raping a drunk girl (that I knew wasn't "open" ). This last one happened during an engineering school sanctioned "integration week-end" where a bunch of 18-23 yo pretty much drank 24/24 for three days, with games and all, supposedly "chaperoned" by professors, quite the experience ! At another such integration week-end there were nude dancers, pretty wild.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do.

Sorry but that makes no sense in the real world. It would be nice and rosy if we were all equally capable of dealing with certain situations, but we are not. In general, a man will be able to defend himself better than a woman. Is that a general rule? Of course not, there are women out there that would overpower men or there are men out there that do not have the size or the experience to defend themselves from pretty much anyone. I do advise my female friends to be extra cautious when walking home at night on their own or when they are going through more dangerous areas of the city. This is not based on any prejudice I have against women but on this thing called reality.


Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
"well that's what can happen when you're drunk" is a problem right there.

Being drunk is not necessarily a problem. Knowing how you act when you are drunk is the main issue. If someone is intoxicated and makes certain advances or suggestions that they wouldn't be making if they were not drunk, they better know how alcohol affects them and know their limits. Want to drink excessively and lose control? Make sure you have a friend or two around you that can cover your back, whether that would be in a case when you senselessly decide to follow someone and have intercourse or pick up your keys and attempt to drive.

These points are not about putting blame on victims, it is about being as cautious as possible in certain situations. If I walk through a bad neighborhood counting $100 bills and I get mugged and assaulted, of course it is not REALLY my fault and of course I did not commit any crime. At the same time though I was being irresponsible and I was not thinking that my actions were making me a target for a criminal out there. And before you compare that to a rape, it can be a traumatic experience as well and can even result to my death.


User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
It doesn't matter. If someone feels physically or emotionally violated by something sexual, then it's abuse at the very least, and can easily be classified as rape. There are many cases of a woman saying she was raped, and the man saying, "Oh come on, that wasn't rape." Emotionally violating someone is less "obvious" but is just as bad as physically violating someone. I won't go into details, but it took a very hard lesson for me to learn that and I will always regret the outcome.

I have to disagree. If someone physically violates you without your consent, that is the definition of rape. Period. Just because you have sex with someone and you regret it and feel "emotionally violated" afterwards does not make it rape! All that other stuff is jsut psychobabble..


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 18):
I have to disagree. If someone physically violates you without your consent, that is the definition of rape. Period. Just because you have sex with someone and you regret it and feel "emotionally violated" afterwards does not make it rape! All that other stuff is jsut psychobabble..

  

The "oh I woke up next to this person I don't really know" or "I wouldn't have had sex with him if I was sober" is not really rape. Some personal responsibility should definitely be part of the equation.


User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3303 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1896 times:
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Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 18):
Just because you have sex with someone and you regret it and feel "emotionally violated" afterwards does not make it rape!

But there is a huge difference between "feeling emotionally violated" and "regretting having sex with someone". The two can be separate.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 18):
I have to disagree. If someone physically violates you without your consent, that is the definition of rape.

No, that is the cultural definition of rape. I'll agree that "emotionally violated" may not constitute rape in a legal sense, but it is abuse nevertheless. Let me put a scenario forward.

A married couple comes home from a night out. No alcohol involved, both totally sober. Happily married, for many years. They start having sex (consensual). The man, wanting to explore a more "kinky" approach, pulls his wife's hair during sex. She reacts positively. He takes it a step further, and smacks her ass. Again, she reacts positively. He moves even more into the kinky side of things and slaps her, hard, in the face or wraps his hands around her throat. She reacts negatively, tells him she doesn't like it. They finish and then she starts to cry, saying she didn't think he had that side to him and she feels he violated her trust and that she was afraid he was going to hurt her.

How do you define that? She may consider it rape. You may not. I wouldn't have, until recently. But if she feels violated and says she was raped because of the emotional trauma his actions caused (even if the slap didn't hurt her physically), then nobody has the right to tell her, "Oh, come on, that's just psychobabble, he didn't violate you."

There is (or should be) trust in any sexual encounter. There are boundaries and by definition if you go past the other person's boundaries or trust limits without asking and without their consent, you've violated them.

TIS

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:04:25]


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User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1890 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
A married couple
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
Happily married, for many years
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
he violated her trust and that she was afraid he was going to hurt her.
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
How do you define that?

I would pretty much place it in the same category as them having a fight, him throwing a plate and start breaking stuff and her being afraid that during this anger outburst he could have also hurt her. Trust? Gone. Fear? Ditto. Is there really a law that would consider what you described as rape? The sexual act itself was consensual. It may not have been right and she would rightfully lose her trust but emotionally violated as in raped? I think this is putting a "rape" label on something that really isn't.

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:05:00]

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):

But there is a huge difference between "feeling emotionally violated"

And there is a huge difference between feeling emotionally violated and being raped. I can also get emotionally violated if I find out my partner is cheating on me. That does not make it rape.


[Edited 2013-10-24 09:06:06]

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:07:12]

User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
I think this is putting a "rape" label on something that really isn't.

Which is exactly what the nutjob feminists want. In their world, every man is a rapist and every woman is a victim!


User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3303 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1868 times:
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Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
I would pretty much place it in the same category as them having a fight, him throwing a plate and start breaking stuff and her being afraid that during this anger outburst he could have also hurt her. Trust? Gone. Fear? Ditto. Is there really a law that would consider what you described as rape? The sexual act itself was consensual.

I think most people would agree with you, including lawyers and judges. If such a scenario went to court, it's very unlikely the husband would be found guilty. But just because the "legal" definition of rape doesn't apply, violating a woman in that way is never acceptable, whether it's in anger or in a drunken stupor. It shows a lack of respect and understanding so in my personal opinion, it does qualify as sexual abuse.

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
And there is a huge difference between feeling emotionally violated and being raped. I can also get emotionally violated if I find out my partner is cheating on me. That does not make it rape.

True, I agree with you here. I just left my girlfriend of four years (a girl who was my best friend and future wife) because she cheated on me. She did not "rape" me, but I wouldn't say she violated me emotionally, either. She may have hurt me, destroyed me, and betrayed my trust, but I don't feel "violated."

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying you're wrong to disagree, I'm just trying to illustrate how much of a cultural issue this is, and that because people disagree it is difficult to define, legislate, and educate regarding this issue.

TIS

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:12:38]


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User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3629 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1847 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 23):
I think most people would agree with you, including lawyers and judges. If such a scenario went to court, it's very unlikely the husband would be found guilty. But just because the "legal" definition of rape doesn't apply, violating a woman in that way is never acceptable, whether it's in anger or in a drunken stupor. It shows a lack of respect and understanding so in my personal opinion, it does qualify as sexual abuse.

There is not really a "legal definition of rape". There is a general definition of a rape and it is there for a reason. You cannot just scream rape every time you get emotionally violated and brand someone as a sexual offender. We have seen how this slippery slope has affected so many people for trivial and dumb things in this country.

I do not think it is a matter of culture, just a matter of sensitivities. I know women that can claim they are emotionally violated because a drunk grabbed their behinds in a crowded club, while most would just respond with a slap or dousing someone with their drink. That is definitely not a rape and I wouldn't even call it sexual abuse. If there are women out there that would claim sexual abuse because their partner/husband went a bit rougher than they would want during consensual sex then, no comment from me, just a suggestion to maybe discuss the issue at a time outside intercourse or find another partner.


25 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Define modifying behavior? Are you talking about not drinking? Are you talking about changing the way you dress? I'm against those. I'm for saying "d
26 SmittyOne : For the record I plan on telling my daughter ALL these things. Not because I'm sexist but because I want her to be safe in the world as it exists tod
27 DeltaMD90 : Exactly, it's just good advice. As much as I'd love to see the world without rapists, they will ALWAYS be there. I'm not trying to restrict what anyo
28 cmf : The way you describe it I would not classify it as rape. But, change it so that after being told to stop he still continues and I would classify it a
29 DeltaMD90 : I was too busy responding to people that quoted me and I overlooked this. Actually, I agree with you. NUT JOBS think this. The VAST majority of femin
30 ANITIX87 : And now we're into the gray area of what, exactly, qualifies as "consent." A girl may not want to say no for fear of angering the guy. Or maybe, beca
31 cmf : I understand you have the position you have if you think this is the majority of cases. I very much doubt it is but would love to see statistics.
32 usflyer msp : I don't see what is so gray here. If the female is of sound mind and gives no indication that she does not consent, then it is not rape. The male is
33 DeltaMD90 : Wow. You need to talk to more females. There are plenty of reasons why a female wouldn't say No even though they don't want to do it. I'm serious, pl
34 ANITIX87 : That's where your entire disillusionment comes in. There is no such thing as implied consent. Even a girl being your wife doesn't mean there's implie
35 SmittyOne : Absolutely. It's incumbent on the pilot to make sure that he's "cleared for takeoff"...silence from the tower ain't it! Yup, and to avoid perpetuatin
36 lewis : So let me get this straight. I see what you mean here but if I meet a girl, start fooling around and things keep moving to the obvious without any fo
37 usflyer msp : I know what you mean, if that is the case I've raped almost every woman I have ever been with! It also means several women have raped me! Maybe it is
38 DeltaMD90 : No. I'm not saying if you don't get a verbal yes means you're a rapist. I'm saying that just assuming not hearing No ALWAYS = consent is not true. Yo
39 ANITIX87 : That's not at all what DeltaMD90 and I are saying. We're simply making the point that "No means no" but that "The absence of Yes can also mean No". T
40 jetblueguy22 : There needs to be personal responsibility on both sides. Morning after regret should not be treated as rape. I think you've seen too many lifetime mo
41 DeltaMD90 : "We?" Who's we? I don't automatically lump everyone described as a feminist into men-hating womyn domination world supporters. There are plenty (majo
42 flymia : That means No. That is not the same as saying nothing and continuing with the act as if nothing is wrong. If she showed no signs of resisting and con
43 jetblueguy22 : I meant society. Try going around and asking people (especially men) what they think about feminists. The thought often goes to the militant side. Es
44 ltbewr : There has been a spirited discussion here as I have seen with other articles on this subject, that is good. We need to have this to bring out the issu
45 Post contains images darksnowynight : Yup. There a lot of stereotypes about what is supposedly not rape that need to be addressed on a wide and social level. I think this is the biggest p
46 DeltaMD90 : Well I disagree with your claim but it's probably impossible to prove or disprove. I see negative connotations usually with only right or far-right w
47 darksnowynight : Too slowly, but yes, it is. The problem is that there is a good deal of pushback, and those opinions are overdue for marginalization. You keep tieing
48 DeltaMD90 : I already pointed out earlier that this is advice in general, not just for getting raped. Getting blacked out drunk can get you in trouble in many mo
49 Post contains links oly720man : Is "watch your drink" being construed as an order or some useful or common sense advice? To widen things a bit from high-school parties and drinking,
50 flymia : I can agree that I should not being those things alone either but in reality I do, and in reality there is a less likelihood of me being a victim of
51 darksnowynight : For one thing, I'm relating this to the issue as outlined in the OP. I do not believe you're doing the same. How does giving drinking advice to a few
52 DeltaMD90 : I'm not talking about the systematic level. That is obviously more important... fix the cause not just treat the symptoms. It is a long term thing, a
53 SmittyOne : I see what you did there! Or rip the dude's nuts off, chew his eyeballs like a cocktail olive...the list goes on! And I really don't think you should
54 Aesma : Yep written consents are becoming a thing, and I'm sure filming it will be next (google glass seems perfect for this).
55 Mir : It's not wrong advice, no, though I'd give you the same advice as well. Which is why I don't have a problem with it. Also, in that case you'd be caut
56 zippyjet : Very Good thread: These may be repeats but: * Physical Education back in the schools with emphasis on self defense. * Advertising campaigns, look, if
57 Post contains images jetblueguy22 : I don't know how it is at other universities, but I know at mine you are brave if you stray out past 9 o'clock being drunk and underage. They hand ou
58 DeltaMD90 : That is why I said usually: Also, it's anecdotal. Maybe if I said "Only all right wingers ........." but I didn't.
59 Post contains images RyanairGuru : And that's what it comes down to at the media/societal level. So long as people don't understand what is rape, then they will continue to misconstrue
60 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I think one of the biggest contributors to the "rape" culture is music. That one is a tough nut to crack... how do we go about doing that? Outlaw som
61 RyanairGuru : I almost went and edited that post because it looked like I was directly talking at you, but it was actually more of a general observation in which I
62 ANITIX87 : If the woman is accusing you because she genuinely feels violated, then I would argue you've done something just as bad as raping her "in the legal s
63 lewis : Not sure what personal experiences have made you think that but sorry, I cannot accept that. "Feeling violated" and "being violated" are two very dif
64 DeltaMD90 : I do agree it's kinda ridiculous for someone to retroactively take away consent, but I don't think anyone is really saying that That is true. I've he
65 lewis : This whole discussion has moved around whether a woman would "feel" violated. We all know that people of all sexes can be emotionally unstable. Sleep
66 DarkSnowyNight : Gotta get up pretty early in the afternoon to run with this champ, lol. Yup, there will indeed always be sharks. I think where we differ is that I th
67 lewis : I'm only getting into this part of the discussion since the "grey areas" are being discussed. If I am going accept that a woman saying yes but actual
68 DarkSnowyNight : Though I personally would not, I can see where you are going. You can add that a man is significantly less likely to report or make an accusation of
69 ANITIX87 : Not to the victim. Maybe I wasn't clear, my apologies. I agree with you here. If a girl accuses someone of rape because she regrets having sex with s
70 lewis : Maybe this is the case but I am glad that laws and rape definitions are based on actual actions instead of each one's feelings. Feelings are not very
71 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Well, the emotional feelings go into the actual actions of giving consent I think we need to attack this issue from both sides to stamp out most of t
72 lewis : Very good point, hence why I think sex ed classes that involve discussions on rape should be attended by both male and female students. Both parties,
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