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CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery  
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 4264 times:

California will begin to require new cars to be fitted with license plates from delivery to purchaser. Currently California allows for the operation of a motor vehicle for a period of up to 6 months with a temporary report of sale ( a small sticker affixed to the lower right hand corner or the front windshield). With more and more automated tolls the state is losing millions of dollars in lost tolls as the current system does not allow for tracking of vehicles currently operation under the temporary provision.

I personally did not affix my plates for almost 6 months before I finally put on my plates. Steve Jobs (Apple Computers) used this provision to never put plates on his car, he would simply buy a new car every 6 months.

173 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
California will begin to require new cars to be fitted with license plates from delivery to purchaser. Currently California allows for the operation of a motor vehicle for a period of up to 6 months with a temporary report of sale ( a small sticker affixed to the lower right hand corner or the front windshield). With more and more automated tolls the state is losing millions of dollars in lost tolls as the current system does not allow for tracking of vehicles currently operation under the temporary provision.

I personally did not affix my plates for almost 6 months before I finally put on my plates. Steve Jobs (Apple Computers) used this provision to never put plates on his car, he would simply buy a new car every 6 months.

I am fine with the change. Just closes a loophole, no big deal. Some in my own family have kept that temporary front windshield sticker in place for a couple years (they had the plates in the trunk.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

If I had my temp sticker still I would not have gotten my red light ticket either. Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4212 times:

I agree with the measure. I see a lot of people driving around without plates, I even know people that keep their plates off on purpose, which can cause a lot of problems in the long run. I just don't get why some are so much against license plates on cars. Is it a way for them to stick it to the man or something? Then the same people turn around and tell you how much they don't care about the NSA snooping in their communications or how necessary it is to be radiated every time you want to travel by air.

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
I just don't get why some are so much against license plates on cars.

They are ugly and. . .

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
Then the same people turn around and tell you how much they don't care about the NSA snooping in their communications or how necessary it is to be radiated every time you want to travel by air.

. . . privacy issues.


Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

My friend did not put the plates on her Mercedes E63 for almost 18 months. He reason was to "show off" that people would think she "just got it". She got stopped once for not signaling on a lane change and the cop did not cite her for no plates but gave her a stern warning. And yes she got out of the no signal ticket too...

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
I just don't get why some are so much against license plates on cars.

They are ugly and. . .
[...]
Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

I personally think we should go to an RFID system, that would be very simple and would vastly reduce out of date registration issues, no need for cameras, etc.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4168 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
They are ugly and

Especially the front   

I've always wondered about cars with no plates running around LA ... now I know LOL! Is California the only state that allows one to run without plates for a certain period of time?



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26593 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4169 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Is California the only state that allows one to run without plates for a certain period of time?

Nope. And others have these paper temporary plates that also don't do much for those auto-toll systems.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):

They are ugly and. . .

I can see that, but...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):

Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

I am pretty sure your opinion would change if someone caused an accident and fled the scene without anyone being able to identify the exact car. Worse, what if there is a hit and run involving one of your loved ones? Would you still be OK with the perpetrator's privacy?


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 10, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
It's only real purpose is tax related.

    And law enforcement related???



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 9):
I am pretty sure your opinion would change if someone caused an accident and fled the scene without anyone being able to identify the exact car. Worse, what if there is a hit and run involving one of your loved ones? Would you still be OK with the perpetrator's privacy?

Most of the time, people stop in an accident. The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4122 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
    And law enforcement related???

Take away the tag and they won't pull you over for driving without a tag or an expired tag.

Police use more your DL's number and the car's VIN number.

[Edited 2013-10-30 09:36:34]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4104 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.

What sort of privacy do you lose by having a license plate exactly? So far I have seen comments about avoiding being caught in speed cameras and avoiding fines. Do you mean lose the option to circumvent the law when you talk about privacy?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Most of the time, people stop in an accident.

I did mention hit and runs. The point is to catch the ones that do not stop, obviously. And many more reasons for law enforcement.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

Which costs more and is not always successful. I have seen too many times the alerts being posted about vehicles that the police is looking for. An alert for a "black Acura" in LA would not be really helpful.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Take away the tag and they won't pull you over for driving without a tag or an expired tag.

Police use more your DL's number and the car's VIN number.

Security cameras seeing a car drive away from a murder scene will see your tag not your DL or VIN
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN
A car that is involved in a chase that gets away will have its tag seen not its DL or VIN
Amber Alerts substantially narrow down a "White Ford" to its tag and not its DL or VIN
Police on the lookout for a suspect will be looking for your tag and not your DL or VIN

There are plenty of uses for tags that DLs and VINs can't fulfill



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
What sort of privacy do you lose by having a license plate exactly? So far I have seen comments about avoiding being caught in speed cameras and avoiding fines. Do you mean lose the option to circumvent the law when you talk about privacy?

You can be identified and tracked.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Which costs more and is not always successful. I have seen too many times the alerts being posted about vehicles that the police is looking for. An alert for a "black Acura" in LA would not be really helpful.

People don't always get tag numbers, either.

Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught. But the privacy issue is exposing yourself to potential criminal activity and possibly an accident ("hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!").



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):

Refer to my reply above, #15.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4088 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
People don't always get tag numbers, either.

And sometimes they do. What's your point?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

And? One, it's good to catch that person and prevent that person from committing any more crimes, two, there are plenty more reasons than just hit and runs.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
But the privacy issue is exposing yourself to potential criminal activity and possibly an accident ("hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!").

How often does this happen?!

I'm all for privacy but there are reasonable things (like license plates) that society if fine with. If society decides against it with a majority, so be it. I don't think they're unconstitutional or anything



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12254 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4069 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Most of the time, people stop in an accident. The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

Yeah, please go find the white car for me. Exactly what privacy are you losing by having license plates? Regular citizens can't access the information, and if you're afraid of big brother, cops can find your information anyways when you get stopped.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 18):
Yeah, please go find the white car for me. Exactly what privacy are you losing by having license plates? Regular citizens can't access the information, and if you're afraid of big brother, cops can find your information anyways when you get stopped.

It really confuses me, because then police would have to stop all white Ford F250s and look at the VIN numbers (a real violation of privacy) or be a completely ineffective police force. PPVRA--real life isn't CSI. You can't just give the police a description of a white pickup truck and expect them to find it. Crime is already hard to solve, harder than people realize, and there are a TON of crimes that go unsolved already. Cops aren't magical



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12254 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4054 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
It really confuses me, because then police would have to stop all white Ford F250s and look at the VIN numbers (a real violation of privacy) or be a completely ineffective police force. PPVRA--real life isn't CSI. You can't just give the police a description of a white pickup truck and expect them to find it. Crime is already hard to solve, harder than people realize, and there are a TON of crimes that go unsolved already. Cops aren't magical

Exactly. Have I found hit and run vehicles without getting a plate, yes...but it makes it a lot harder and more work that could be better spent doing something else.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

So? Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege (oh gotta love that usual soundbite). Don't want to be identified and tracked? Walk or take the bus.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
("hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!")

Yes, I am sure all people have the princess issue. Even celebrities cannot really hide, paparazzis can follow them from their house to wherever they go. They don't drive around looking for celebrity plates.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

You are kidding right? That is the most absurd thing I have heard this week. So what is done is done, no need to cry over spilled milk. Let them go away.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4043 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):

I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.

All other first world countries don't have a problem with tagging cars with license plates.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):

You can be identified and tracked.

So you can be tracked by your credit/debit card usage, you can be tracked via your cell phone, in some cities with security cameras and facial recognition your movements can be tracked, you're being tracked all the time so what's the big deal about plates?


User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10095 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4032 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Police use more your DL's number and the car's VIN number.

Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

Perhaps. But other people could be in considerable danger, especially if said driver has a history of reckless driving and/or hit-and-runs.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

Why? As some sort of protest?



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
If I had my temp sticker still I would not have gotten my red light ticket either. Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

Maybe don't run red lights then?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

1) This comes as a cost to the taxpayer.
2) Success is not guaranteed...and given the low importance of hit-and-runs where nobody is hurt, success is unlikely.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

What would you be doing that would cause someone to even want to track you? Further, how many times has a person been harmed because they were tracked down by their license plate?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
"hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!"

This example doesn't make sense. License plates have nothing to do with that accident.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

  



Flying refined.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 26, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4120 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
People don't always get tag numbers, either.

And sometimes they do. What's your point?

You have to read that reply in light of Lewis' comments. My point was that license plates don't always lead to capture of the person who caused an accident. Case in point, that man that recently admitted to killing a man on a video posted online.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

And? One, it's good to catch that person and prevent that person from committing any more crimes, two, there are plenty more reasons than just hit and runs.

AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes. I don't see significant risks in not solving the case right away.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
How often does this happen?!

Very hard to tell. For sure it's a lot more often than it gets reported, rather than the other way around.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Security cameras seeing a car drive away from a murder scene will see your tag not your DL or VIN

I doubt security cameras can really see tag numbers. They are not angled to capture tags. At least the programs I've watched on TV, you can tell the car color, model and the suspect. Not the tag.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
A car that is involved in a chase that gets away will have its tag seen not its DL or VIN

Aren't most car chases due to car theft? That's not gonna help you ID the driver.

In any case, unless a violent crime has been committed, I am against car chases. They are too dangerous.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Amber Alerts substantially narrow down a "White Ford" to its tag and not its DL or VIN

Don't know enough about AMBER Alerts. But such is the nature of privacy, sometimes it complicates things.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Police on the lookout for a suspect will be looking for your tag and not your DL or VIN

Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4130 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):

Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.

Check out replies 18 & 20.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

That is actually what some amber alerts are about. They are looking for cars that have committed a crime like an abduction or a hit and run. License plate AND description are provided. As I said, looking for a black sedan or even a black Jetta in a big city is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[Edited 2013-10-30 10:44:57]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 28, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4096 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 18):
Yeah, please go find the white car for me. Exactly what privacy are you losing by having license plates? Regular citizens can't access the information, and if you're afraid of big brother, cops can find your information anyways when you get stopped.

Anyone who sees me walking into my car can take down my tag info and use it to identify and track me any time. That's a simple fact.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
So? Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege (oh gotta love that usual soundbite). Don't want to be identified and tracked? Walk or take the bus.

Don't mix up issues. Driving a car is not a right to the extent you have to pay for the cost of it, it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
Yes, I am sure all people have the princess issue. Even celebrities cannot really hide, paparazzis can follow them from their house to wherever they go. They don't drive around looking for celebrity plates.

Don't make assumptions about people's lives based on a single example.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

You are kidding right? That is the most absurd thing I have heard this week. So what is done is done, no need to cry over spilled milk. Let them go away.

I never said "let them go away". I said don't expose yourself to more risk unnecessarily.



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 20):
Exactly. Have I found hit and run vehicles without getting a plate, yes...but it makes it a lot harder and more work that could be better spent doing something else.

I am not in favor of making police work easier by weakening the privacy of an entire population.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
All other first world countries don't have a problem with tagging cars with license plates.

Sure, they invented it and people got used to them.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
So you can be tracked by your credit/debit card usage, you can be tracked via your cell phone, in some cities with security cameras and facial recognition your movements can be tracked, you're being tracked all the time so what's the big deal about plates?

It's not like anyone can use those thing to identify and track you. Credit card companies aren't going to share that info with anyone coming through their doors.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

Never said to do this.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Perhaps. But other people could be in considerable danger, especially if said driver has a history of reckless driving and/or hit-and-runs.

No need to catch the guy right away.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
1) This comes as a cost to the taxpayer.

At least it's not a privacy cost. Hard to put a price tag on that.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
2) Success is not guaranteed...and given the low importance of hit-and-runs where nobody is hurt, success is unlikely.

Success is not guaranteed if nobody writes down the tag number, either.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
What would you be doing that would cause someone to even want to track you? Further, how many times has a person been harmed because they were tracked down by their license plate?

1. You don't have to be doing anything illegal or in any way wrong for someone to track you down and commit a crime
2. I don't know how many times criminals, stalkers, etc use tag numbers to identify and track their victims. Probably a very hard figure to determine.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
"hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!"

This example doesn't make sense. License plates have nothing to do with that accident.

So? License plates make it easier to identify and track people. . . leading to higher chances of an accident happening.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 29, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 27):
That is actually what some amber alerts are about. They are looking for cars that have committed a crime like an abduction or a hit and run. License plate AND description are provided. As I said, looking for a black sedan or even a black Jetta in a big city is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

The example given involved witnesses to an abduction. My answer was in response to this specific circumstance.

If the dad of a little girl abducts her, you can infer the tag number from the missing car in the garage.

[Edited 2013-10-30 11:08:27]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 30, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

Nope, the government sure as hell has a right to tell you whether you can or cannot operate a vehicle. Try driving around without a driver's license or with an unregistered vehicle (plates or no plates on).

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):

Anyone who sees me walking into my car can take down my tag info and use it to identify and track me any time.

So because someone knows that you drive the car with license ABC123, they can track you AT ANY TIME? How would they do that exactly? I don't know of any way I can find out where car ABC123 is at any time, unless of course I run into you randomly.

If they want to track you, they can see you walking to your vehicle sans plates and follow you around very easily as well. If they see you walk to a car, all they have to do is follow the car you just entered.


User currently offlineJetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3085 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes.

An intentional crime is committed the second someone flees the scene of an accident.



Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 32, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4067 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):

The example given involved witnesses to an abduction. My answer was in response to this specific circumstance.

If the dad of a little girl abducts her, you can infer the tag number from the missing car in the garage.

Huh?


User currently onlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10095 posts, RR: 26
Reply 33, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4054 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

Never said to do this.

I know you didn't. What's easier to track in an Amber Alert for citizens and police? License plate #, or VIN? I suppose we could stop every silver Civic in LA to check the VIN, but I think some would view that as a larger invasion of privacy. Not to mention terribly inefficient.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Perhaps. But other people could be in considerable danger, especially if said driver has a history of reckless driving and/or hit-and-runs.

No need to catch the guy right away.

There's no need to catch most criminals right away. I'd bet the vast percentage of them don't immediately go out and commit another crime. They should still be caught sooner rather than later.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 34, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4056 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy,

A license plate made up of essentially randomly assigned digits does not intrude on ones privacy.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Take away the tag and they won't pull you over for driving without a tag or an expired tag.

That is why I prefer the RFID to be added, no need to pull over anyone. If a police car (or other enforcement entity) is equipped properly and detects an out of date RFID/registration a ticket could be automatically issued (or the officer could be notified so they could do it). Simple, no wasting anyone's time.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 35, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
You have to read that reply in light of Lewis' comments. My point was that license plates don't always lead to capture of the person who caused an accident. Case in point, that man that recently admitted to killing a man on a video posted online.

Again, I agree. They don't always lead to capture. So? They often do lead to capture

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes. I don't see significant risks in not solving the case right away.

Agreed. What does the length of time before you look for the suspect have to do with license plates?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Very hard to tell. For sure it's a lot more often than it gets reported, rather than the other way around.

Well until I see some hard numbers, I'm not buying it

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
I doubt security cameras can really see tag numbers. They are not angled to capture tags. At least the programs I've watched on TV, you can tell the car color, model and the suspect. Not the tag.

Again, some can, some can't.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

You really overestimate the common criminal then. Crime is so easy to get away with, it really is, if you cover your tracks. One of the police's best friends is the lack of intellect from a criminal. I digress... I'm about to go to lunch now and don't have time to pull up any cases, I can if you insist. I do remember hearing of a few. I was mainly arguing for the whole Amber Alert argument, it gives out tag numbers so you don't have a million people calling in about a white F250. Granted, I can't tell you how many of those plates were seen by witnesses and how many were linked to the suspect (without having seen the plates)

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
In any case, unless a violent crime has been committed, I am against car chases. They are too dangerous.

Exactly. A lot of chases are disengaged. I worded it poorly. You can not risk an accident and luckily, the police dash cams pick up the tag number and can put that in the system so the suspect can be tracked down to a certain address or another cop can spot the car. Without tags, you can have some pretty non-descriptive look outs (for a white truck, that's no help)

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
But such is the nature of privacy, sometimes it complicates things.

I agree, I'm just not swayed that having plates is a huge violation of privacy. You are right though, it is a violation of privacy, but we in society have chosen to give up a bit of privacy for the greater good. When it starts to get out of hand, that's when people complain and get the law changed. If 50%+1 think that tags are too much, then so be it

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.

There are several on this forum including KaiGywer according to his profile. I majored in Criminal Justice and did an internship with a police department which admittedly does NOT make me anywhere near an expert, but I know a few things here and there. I try not to say things I am not sure of and cannot back up. Most of license plate hits we had were expired registration, which yes, goes towards your tax theory quite nicely  

And yes, when a car is pulled over we'd pull up the DL and that's usually when things got interesting. But tags do serve an important role in LE even if 95%* of the cases are tax related. Don't discount that 5%*, it goes far to solve crimes

*obviously throwing some numbers out there, it could even be 99%/1% for all I know



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 36, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4048 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
Nope, the government sure as hell has a right to tell you whether you can or cannot operate a vehicle. Try driving around without a driver's license or with an unregistered vehicle (plates or no plates on).

I am morally opposed to the use of force to prevent someone from driving a car if that person has not committed any crimes. Anyone who does this should be considered the criminal and needs to spend some time in jail.

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
So because someone knows that you drive the car with license ABC123, they can track you AT ANY TIME? How would they do that exactly? I don't know of any way I can find out where car ABC123 is at any time, unless of course I run into you randomly.

You think the police drives around randomly looking for "White Ford Bronco License ABC123"? Yes they can "crowdsource" through AMBER alerts, but they don't sit in the police station with their arms crossed either.

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
If they want to track you, they can see you walking to your vehicle sans plates and follow you around very easily as well. If they see you walk to a car, all they have to do is follow the car you just entered.

Yes they can. But that's more difficult.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 37, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

Should houses also not have address numbers on them? And if not, why not? They are required by code.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4041 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
I am morally opposed to the use of force to prevent someone from driving a car if that person has not committed any crimes. Anyone who does this should be considered the criminal and needs to spend some time in jail.

A car is like any other heavy vehicle. You need to check specific boxes (health, age) and be qualified to drive it safely. Unless you are advocating that anybody, regardless of their age, health or ability to drive should be allowed to do so.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
You think the police drives around randomly looking for "White Ford Bronco License ABC123"? Yes they can "crowdsource" through AMBER alerts, but they don't sit in the police station with their arms crossed either.

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

That has nothing to do with what I asked you. So you drive car ABC123. You said that by having license plates they can track you any time. How would they track you exactly? Does the license plate have a chip that broadcasts your location at all times? Unless you have the whole city looking for you (thus you are a criminal/have done something very wrong), I don't see how someone can track you.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

They can just as easily pass by your car and check the VIN number. They can also be outside your house to see when you leave. The license plates, or lack thereof, do nothing to prevent that from happening.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
If they want to track you, they can see you walking to your vehicle sans plates and follow you around very easily as well. If they see you walk to a car, all they have to do is follow the car you just entered.

Yes they can. But that's more difficult.

How so? If I see you walking in a vehicle all I have to do is follow you around. Having plates or not makes absolutely no difference to me.


Other than avoiding fines or arrest, you have yet to show how the lack of license plates protects your privacy.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3016 posts, RR: 7
Reply 39, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4041 times:
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Absolutely remarkable from a European perspective that any vehicle is allowed a grace period without number plates.

PPVRA yes of cause they are primarily for Tax and Insurance purposes and rightly so.

Here in the UK all road vehicles are required to be registered - Even powered garden mowers !

There is a national data base accessible by the police and insurance companies that contains all vehicle ID information, yes the VIN the colour the engine number and size .
It also updates and contains details of stolen vehicles and even reported number plate thefts

It also references the users insurance policies expiry date and for vehicles on their third birthday of registration and subsequently annually the MOT test certificate number.

All this is collated annually when paying the road tax.
You are required to submit the insurance policy, MOT test certificate and registration form (Log book) at a post office along with the fee.

Some road traffic police vehicle have equipment that reads those plates and references the data base .
Any discrepancies and a warning is sounded.

This is avery powerful tool in crime investigation and prevention.

The officers will then follow up with a stop and question roadside interview.

As for privacy the standard register sequences incorporate a year code (Of first registration) and a geographical code identifying region of registration. They do not identify the vehicle owner in any way.

You can however transfer previous used registrations for a fee to new vehicles and these are called cherished plates often they may resemble a name and company or word.
Still these still follow the same year/geographical identifiers on close inspection.

A further identifier is the incorporation of the dealers Zip/Post code on the number plates.

All these identify the car to the authorities however not the general public.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 40, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4037 times:

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 31):
An intentional crime is committed the second someone flees the scene of an accident.

Some people freak out and run away. Are they a menace to society? I think not.

Quoting lewis (Reply 32):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):

The example given involved witnesses to an abduction. My answer was in response to this specific circumstance.

If the dad of a little girl abducts her, you can infer the tag number from the missing car in the garage.

Huh?

"Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag. . ."

(deleted part of the statement for emphasis)

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
I know you didn't. What's easier to track in an Amber Alert for citizens and police? License plate #, or VIN? I suppose we could stop every silver Civic in LA to check the VIN, but I think some would view that as a larger invasion of privacy. Not to mention terribly inefficient.

The reason I mentioned VIN and DL numbers is because that's what the bureaucracy use. It's also how you get traffic tickets.

Quoting tugger (Reply 34):
A license plate made up of essentially randomly assigned digits does not intrude on ones privacy.

I can think of a lot of randomly assigned digits that you would not be willing to post here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
Agreed. What does the length of time before you look for the suspect have to do with license plates?

License plates arguably can speed up the process, no? This argument was used above agains my position.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
I agree, I'm just not swayed that having plates is a huge violation of privacy. You are right though, it is a violation of privacy, but we in society have chosen to give up a bit of privacy for the greater good. When it starts to get out of hand, that's when people complain and get the law changed. If 50%+1 think that tags are too much, then so be it

Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.

Quoting tugger (Reply 37):
Should houses also not have address numbers on them? And if not, why not? They are required by code.

Not by law. But it has very practical purposes. For the matter that is one of my pet peeves in the U.S., a lot of stores don't have or have hidden address numbers on them, making it difficult to know whether or not you drove past a place you are looking for.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 41, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):
Absolutely remarkable from a European perspective that any vehicle is allowed a grace period without number plates.

I actually like it. It means I can walk into a dealership and then out with a brand new car in a matter of minutes. Back home I would have to wait for days (sometimes even a couple of weeks) for the plates to arrive at the dealership. You still do get the temporary sticker at the front and everything.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 42, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):

"Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag. . ."

(deleted part of the statement for emphasis)

Yeah to which I replied that they will issue an amber alert about it with the said tag. What does the father snatching his own child and the missing car from the said father's garage have to do with anything?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
It's also how you get traffic tickets.

So back to my point, it IS about avoiding traffic tickets and not really "privacy".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.

Unless "everyone else" can issue amber alerts or can have a fleet of hundreds of cars in the area looking for you, the comparison you are making is moot.

[Edited 2013-10-30 11:46:02]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 43, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4019 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
A car is like any other heavy vehicle. You need to check specific boxes (health, age) and be qualified to drive it safely. Unless you are advocating that anybody, regardless of their age, health or ability to drive should be allowed to do so.

There are other ways to go about doing this without a draconian legal requirement.

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):

The reason the police likes tags is because it makes it easier to identify and track criminals, right? So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 44, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 42):
So back to my point, it IS about avoiding traffic tickets and not really "privacy".

I was not talking about tags in that post.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 45, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
There are other ways to go about doing this without a draconian legal requirement.

So having a valid DL and a license plate is "draconian".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?

See the end of reply 42. There are no excuses because "just a criminal" or "just anyone" does not have the means to track you with the license plate the same way law enforcement can. If you still cannot understand why, I give up.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 46, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4011 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
I can think of a lot of randomly assigned digits that you would not be willing to post here.

There are number that are meant to be seen publicly and others that aren't, so what is your point? Again you attempt to relate things that have no relationship.

Those "random numbers" you are talking about (I assume you are talking about) identify the person specifically, they are just attached to an object, allow access to other information about me that can allows others access to parts of my life that do not belong. Those "other numbers" aren't even seen by law enforcement in any normal circumstance.

You are not making any sense.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 47, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 4006 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 45):
So having a valid DL and a license plate is "draconian".

What's draconian is your coercive reaction to people who don't have their "papers" in order. I would never put a gun to someone's head because of this, nor would I ask anyone else to do the same for me.

Quoting lewis (Reply 45):
See the end of reply 42. There are no excuses because "just a criminal" or "just anyone" does not have the means to track you with the license plate the same way law enforcement can. If you still cannot understand why, I give up.

Just because the police has more means than the average criminal does not invalidate my argument.

Quoting tugger (Reply 46):
There are number that are meant to be seen publicly and others that aren't, so what is your point? Again you attempt to relate things that have no relationship.

Choice. That's my point.

[Edited 2013-10-30 11:56:41]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 48, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3998 times:

In Florida we have temporary plastic dealer plates or the dealer will just do the registration for you and it has plates available. I agree seeing all those cars around California with no plates makes no sense.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

So everyone should fly a plane too right? You need a license, and there are requirements for that such as age, eye sight, physical abilities etc.. The government can absolutely take someones license to drive away for many reasons and to think otherwise is just foolish and naive.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

Or they can see your car is not parked at your home. Or they can watch you leave your home. Or they can ring the door bell and see if anyone answers. Ringing the doorbell is what most robbers do.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?

Since when do criminals have access to license plate data. They have the same laptops cops have and the same network accesses? I guess some might but 99% don't. I don't see how a licnese plate is a privacy issue. I think that is taking it way to far. I mean I could watch you get in your car and just follow you. Now you will want all cars to be the same make and color? Because some people might be driving the only E63 in the neighborhood. I mean really license plates? Seriously? I can't even imagine what you have to think about things like Facebook or the NSA.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 49, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
Choice. That's my point.

Please. You have a choice: Don't own or drive a car. No one is forcing you to identify yourself. If you choose to purchase and operate a vehicle then certain rules will need to be followed.

I assume you are also against aircraft registrations.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 50, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
License plates arguably can speed up the process, no? This argument was used above agains my position.

Yes the speed up the process. Still not sure where you're going with this. Hit and run--have the license plate. One- No one is saying that you have to go after them right away, two- good luck finding them without a plate. Don't forget, you don't have to sweep the city for a plate, you can simply see what address that plate is connected to and go to the address. Or you can just go about normal activities and in a month an a half that person is found from the plate.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?

Can you outline a hypothetical? I'm really having trouble imagining what you're describing. Everything I can think of is so outrageous I don't see it as outweighing the positive uses for it. It's not like someone can access the police's database and plug in the license plate. Having a license plate number is like trying to find a needle in the haystack



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 51, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
Just because the police has more means than the average criminal does not invalidate my argument.

Of course it does, it makes your argument borderline paranoid. Someone cannot track you AT ANY TIME (as you said) based on your license plates unless they have eyes everywhere. Apart from law enforcement, there is nobody else with that capability, not even close. Hence your argument = invalid.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
What's draconian is your coercive reaction to people who don't have their "papers" in order.

All I said was that driving is not a right and its a privilege for which you have to possess certain qualifications (age, health, knowing how to drive, knowing the driving code/rules/laws) and follow the laws. Nobody is forcing you to drive a vehicle, if you don't like the rules of the game you may choose to walk or take the bus/taxi. Just being able to afford a car does not allow you to drive one, unless you want to do that in your driveway or private race track. That is neither draconian nor a"papier bitte" situation, its just how things are, and for a very good reason.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 52, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
My point was that license plates don't always lead to capture of the person who caused an accident.

They may not but they willmake it a lot easier.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
It's not like anyone can use those thing to identify and track you. Credit card companies aren't going to share that info with anyone coming through their doors.

Nope but I'm sure a criminal type could slip the server or shop assistance a couple of bucks and get your name.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):

I am morally opposed to the use of force to prevent someone from driving a car if that person has not committed any crimes.

Who said anything about using force to stop your from operating a vehicle. Some people are simply not fit to drive, so they aren't allowed.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home.

If you're not home your not home, pretty simple isn't it? How is not having tags on your car going to help?


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8320 posts, RR: 9
Reply 53, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

6 months after the law takes effect you plate will go on or you'll get a ticket.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

All the more need for both tag and tax to be paid with delivery.

There are a lot of scams -to the point that Oklahoma moved to a tax based on the Sticker MSRP price.

I'm also in the group that believes there is a significant advantage in having that clear ID of a scar for a lot of legal reasons.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 54, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3938 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 48):
So everyone should fly a plane too right? You need a license, and there are requirements for that such as age, eye sight, physical abilities etc.. The government can absolutely take someones license to drive away for many reasons and to think otherwise is just foolish and naive.

Actually I think the law says the government cannot take your private pilots license away. They may be able to suspend you temporarily but they cannot take away your license. (maybe except your medical, which is a separate thing but require to fly - but who cares at that point, if you can't see you're not gonna jump in on a plane)

Quoting flymia (Reply 48):
Or they can see your car is not parked at your home. Or they can watch you leave your home. Or they can ring the door bell and see if anyone answers. Ringing the doorbell is what most robbers do.

Never argued there aren't other ways. But it facilitates the identification of a car. Identifying a car can serve numerous purposes, including criminal ones.

Quoting flymia (Reply 48):
Since when do criminals have access to license plate data. They have the same laptops cops have and the same network accesses? I guess some might but 99% don't. I don't see how a licnese plate is a privacy issue. I think that is taking it way to far. I mean I could watch you get in your car and just follow you. Now you will want all cars to be the same make and color? Because some people might be driving the only E63 in the neighborhood. I mean really license plates? Seriously? I can't even imagine what you have to think about things like Facebook or the NSA.

So without license plate data tags are useless for the purpose of committing or facilitating a crime be committed? Seriously?

Facebook is a choice. NSA is not a choice, therefore BAD.

Quoting tugger (Reply 49):
Please. You have a choice: Don't own or drive a car. No one is forcing you to identify yourself. If you choose to purchase and operate a vehicle then certain rules will need to be followed.

Or better, own and drive a car and not be forced to put a largely useless tag on it that on top of it being ugly, carries with it privacy risks.

Quoting tugger (Reply 49):
I assume you are also against aircraft registrations.

Oh yes. Even more useless.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 55, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Or better, own and drive a car and not be forced to put a largely useless tag on it that on top of it being ugly, carries with it privacy risks.

Your argument does not make sense. However you are free to pursue it.

How do you feel about my RFID idea?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 56, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
Yes the speed up the process. Still not sure where you're going with this. Hit and run--have the license plate.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
Don't forget, you don't have to sweep the city for a plate, you can simply see what address that plate is connected to and go to the address. Or you can just go about normal activities and in a month an a half that person is found from the plate.

I don't see where you are going with this. . . the purpose of looking up a tag number on a computer and going to that house is to speed up the process, no? That's basically the value of a license plate - it speeds up the process.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 50):
Can you outline a hypothetical? I'm really having trouble imagining what you're describing. Everything I can think of is so outrageous I don't see it as outweighing the positive uses for it. It's not like someone can access the police's database and plug in the license plate. Having a license plate number is like trying to find a needle in the haystack

A husband hire a murder to kill his wife. Gives the guy car color, model and tag number and where she will be Sunday morning. Murderer kills the wife while she is parked at a red light on the way to wherever she was going.

Quoting lewis (Reply 51):
Of course it does, it makes your argument borderline paranoid. Someone cannot track you AT ANY TIME (as you said) based on your license plates unless they have eyes everywhere. Apart from law enforcement, there is nobody else with that capability, not even close. Hence your argument = invalid.

Obviously you have to have more information to begin with. Look at the hypothetical I gave above as another example.

Quoting lewis (Reply 51):
All I said was that driving is not a right and its a privilege for which you have to possess certain qualifications (age, health, knowing how to drive, knowing the driving code/rules/laws) and follow the laws. Nobody is forcing you to drive a vehicle, if you don't like the rules of the game you may choose to walk or take the bus/taxi. Just being able to afford a car does not allow you to drive one, unless you want to do that in your driveway or private race track. That is neither draconian nor a"papier bitte" situation, its just how things are, and for a very good reason.

So why do people get in trouble with expired driver's license and tags? Doesn't mean they aren't healthy or aren't good drivers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 52):
Nope but I'm sure a criminal type could slip the server or shop assistance a couple of bucks and get your name.

You don't need to do that to use a tag number.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 52):
If you're not home your not home, pretty simple isn't it? How is not having tags on your car going to help?

Because it positively identifies a car in a certain location. If this does not help anyone, then it won't help the police, either. It would make AMBER Alerts completely useless.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 57, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 55):
How do you feel about my RFID idea?

An improvement.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3900 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56):
So why do people get in trouble with expired driver's license and tags? Doesn't mean they aren't healthy or aren't good drivers.

Most of the times yes. it means that the state will not renew your license because you may be unfit or unable to drive due to prior violations, age and/or health. The latter requires re-testing to ensure you are still fit for drive.

As for the tags, it probably means you haven't paid the road tax which is part of your "responsibility" that comes with the "privilege" of being allowed to drive on public funded roads. It means you are a tax evader.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Identifying a car can serve numerous purposes, including criminal ones.

Yet you have not shown how in any of the possible scenarios how having/not having a license plate will change anything whatsoever. Like the scenario below:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56):
Murderer kills the wife while she is parked at a red light on the way to wherever she was going.

The criminal DOES NOT KNOW automatically AT ANY POINT IN TIME where the car is because he knows the color/make and license plate number. The criminal will have to follow the victim, possibly from the residence or workplace. The criminal would just have to see the victim get in a car and FOLLOW her until she hits a red light. Having license plates or not in this case does not make any difference WHATSOEVER. If the criminal does not do the above, he cannot locate the woman and her car just by knowing the license plate, at which point, knowing the license plate number or not is irrelevant. I still don't know why this is so hard to grasp.

[Edited 2013-10-30 12:46:48]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 59, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 58):
Most of the times yes. it means that the state will not renew your license because you may be unfit or unable to drive due to prior violations, age and/or health. The latter requires re-testing to ensure you are still fit for drive.

As for the tags, it probably means you haven't paid the road tax which is part of your "responsibility" that comes with the "privilege" of being allowed to drive on public funded roads. It means you are a tax evader.

Or it means you are busy and forgot, or didn't notice the expiration. Or you forgot your "papers" at home. I bet this is 99% of the cases, at least in the U.S.

Quoting lewis (Reply 58):
Yet you have not shown how in any of the possible scenarios how having/not having a license plate will change anything whatsoever. Like the scenario below:
Quoting lewis (Reply 58):
The criminal will have to follow the victim

Nope. He can wait in a certain location until she drives by, and then follow her until a red light.

[Edited 2013-10-30 12:52:59]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 60, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Or it means you are busy and forgot, or didn't notice the expiration.

That is very far fetched. You do get notification that your license is expiring soon and that you need to renew. Its like saying you would arrive to the airport with an expired passport simply because you "forgot to check" or didn't notice. Well, sucks for you, you won't be traveling internationally that day.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Or you forgot your "papers" at home.

Which happens all the time. It is fine, nobody will shoot you and you will get away with a slap on the wrist. Correct me if I'm wrong but the computers in police cars can check if you have a valid DL.

You really make it sound draconian, as if they are going to stone you or hang you at the main square for it. You keep making it sound like something it isn't. By putting "papers" in quotes you make it sound like the SS is going to shoot you for it. If you have to go to such hyperbole lengths to prove a point, maybe there is no point to begin with?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Nope. He can wait in a certain location until she drives by, and then follow her until a red light.

And which location would that be? A random location?


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 61, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 57):
An improvement.

Interesting. So you are only against "public" elements of identification and registration?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 62, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56):
That's basically the value of a license plate - it speeds up the process.

Oh I see what you're saying. No, it doesn't JUST speed up the process, having the tag can very easily be the difference between finding the guy and not finding the guy. I know you can't always get the tag number, but if you don't, your chances of finding the guy are severely diminished. It's just common sense

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56):
Gives the guy car color, model and tag number and where she will be Sunday morning.

If you give the guy the car color, model, and where she'll be Sunday morning (without the tag number) he won't be able to figure it out?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see it as some egregious violation of privacy, and I don't share your concerns of criminals tracking me down which I view as extreme paranoia



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 63, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Or it means you are busy and forgot, or didn't notice the expiration.

That is very far fetched. You do get notification that your license is expiring soon and that you need to renew. Its like saying you would arrive to the airport with an expired passport simply because you "forgot to check" or didn't notice. Well, sucks for you, you won't be traveling internationally that day.

It's not far fetched, it happens pretty often. It has happened to me once. I had to get to the DMV ASAP to get a new one and I had no one at the time (middle of the work week) to get me there before the DMV closed. I drove anyways and if they were to ask anything, someone dropped me off.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Or you forgot your "papers" at home.

Which happens all the time. It is fine, nobody will shoot you and you will get away with a slap on the wrist. Correct me if I'm wrong but the computers in police cars can check if you have a valid DL.

From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed. Not sure exactly what happens I've only heard stories.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
You really make it sound draconian, as if they are going to stone you or hang you at the main square for it. You keep making it sound like something it isn't. By putting "papers" in quotes you make it sound like the SS is going to shoot you for it. If you have to go to such hyperbole lengths to prove a point, maybe there is no point to begin with?

All laws are enforced by violent force or the threat thereof. Traffic laws are no different. Being prohibited from driving because you forgot your license at home is ridiculous, and if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest, he will pull a gun on you sooner or later. Try to defend yourself from this absurdity and you may end up with a bullet lodged somewhere you don't want. Draconian? Yeah, absolutely.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Nope. He can wait in a certain location until she drives by, and then follow her until a red light.

And which location would that be? A random location?

Doesn't matter where. Could be the mid point between the house and say, the church, where the wife was going.

Quoting tugger (Reply 61):
Interesting. So you are only against "public" elements of identification and registration?

I am not in favor of having an RFID implanted in your car or yourself that the government can scan at any time and get information from you. If you are worried about tax and registration, there are other ways to keep track of that.

An RFID is an improvement over the current system because it would be less intrusive. Nothing at all would be best.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest

then you deserve to be in trouble!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
he will pull a gun on you sooner or later.

I don't think you understand the use of force. If you get a gun pulled on you for not having a DL then you hit the jackpot... go to any lawyer and you're gonna be a rich man



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3828 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
All laws are enforced by violent force or the threat thereof.

Not all laws, it all depends on the severity. I wouldn't call being fined violent. I would also not consider not being allowed to drive violent.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
Being prohibited from driving because you forgot your license at home is ridiculous

No it is the law. Again, you do not have a god-given right to drive a car. Driving a car comes with certain rules and conditions. Unless you can prove effectively on the spot that you really do have a valid license, the officers would be right to not allow you to drive. For all they know you could have had your license revoked or had no license to begin with.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
and if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest, he will pull a gun on you sooner or later

If you do that you will definitely raise suspicion. It will be pretty stupid to do that anyway. He may chase you but I doubt he will pull a gun on you. Worst case he will ask for assistance. Maybe try to shoot if he sees you are endangering the life of other drivers-pedestrians with the way you are driving while running away but still the chances are slim.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
Draconian? Yeah, absolutely.

So...no. Draconian = very severe or cruel. What you describe is none of the above.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
Doesn't matter where. Could be the mid point between the house and say, the church, where the wife was going.

First things first, that would be stupid. Someone with the intent to kill someone else would follow them from the residence and would like to see the person getting in the car, just to be sure they are shooting the right person and not the baby sitter picking up the kids or worse, the husband! Second, you have created such a Hollywood scenario to prove that license plates are an invasion of privacy and may result to someone's death that the point you are trying to make is just not there.

[Edited 2013-10-30 13:47:05]

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 66, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3811 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
I am not in favor of having an RFID implanted in your car or yourself that the government can scan at any time and get information from you. If you are worried about tax and registration, there are other ways to keep track of that.

An RFID is an improvement over the current system because it would be less intrusive. Nothing at all would be best.

What about tollways that use RFID's etc. to track and charge you for their use?

Many are private operations and widely use these transponders etc. for toll billing and collection. Honestly I think you are making no different an agreement with them when you use their roads compared to using "public" roads. A system to identify and confirm that you are properly there and that is use to properly locate and bill you for any fees is perfectly acceptable if you choose to voluntarily sign up for them.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed. Not sure exactly what happens I've only heard stories.

By doing a quick check I found out that depending on the state and whether or not you are an ass to the officer, the following may happen:

-Just a warning.
-Just a citation.
-Have someone bring the DL to you.
-Have them escort you home if you live close by.
-Run your plates and your name and figure out if you are a holder of a valid DL - provided you have other forms of ID.

Worst case scenario they may take you to the station to ID you but that is rare and would happen only if there are issues with identifying you or if you just give them a hard time and try to drive away as you said. If any law enforcer could verify the above that would be great.

Again, hardly draconian, unless you are an anarchist and any form of law or authority is an issue for you.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Actually I think the law says the government cannot take your private pilots license away.

But you said it is a right to drive a car, so you agree a pilot needs to pass certain test to get a license to fly a plane. So you agree that a driver of a car should need to pass certain test to get a license to drive a car. Having a license to do something makes it a privilege not a right.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Facebook is a choice. NSA is not a choice, therefore BAD.

Driving a car and owning a car is a choice too.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
Being prohibited from driving because you forgot your license at home is ridiculous,
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed. Not sure exactly what happens I've only heard stories.

Your understanding is wrong, at least in Florida. You give them you date of birth, name and address and they can look you up either by their own computer in the car or from dispatch. You may get a ticket for failure to present your license but no one is getting towed, arrested or being prohibited to drive unless you actually don't have a license or it is suspended. But it can vary state to state, I only know Florida law well.

I don't know how this discussion got like this. I think being worried about license plate privacy takes it to another level. If you ever been to the Untied States and I had you full name and DOB, where I worked last year (DHS/ICE) I could get a ton of information about you. Are you paranoid about me or entering the Untied States or any country for that matter? I would imagine so if a license plate is such a violation of your rights.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21):
Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

I don't really see the need for a car to have permanent license plates the moment it leaves the dealership - that's what temporary plates are for. But six months without the actual plates is a lot - I think you get 30 days here in New York, which is reasonable.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Driving a car is not a right to the extent you have to pay for the cost of it, it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

No, the government absolutely has the right to tell you you can't drive a car if you're not fit to do so. That's what having the licensing process and the related drivers test is all about.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Actually I think the law says the government cannot take your private pilots license away.

They can. They can suspend it, but they can also revoke it.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest

Then you're going to get in trouble. As you should. You don't get to decide which laws you're going to be held to and which you aren't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 70, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest

then you deserve to be in trouble!

For what? Driving without a license - in other words, yet another ridiculous victimless crime??

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
he will pull a gun on you sooner or later.

I don't think you understand the use of force. If you get a gun pulled on you for not having a DL then you hit the jackpot... go to any lawyer and you're gonna be a rich man

Drive away without permission for a cop that pulled you over for no good reason at all and you will probably end up on the ground, face down with at least one gun pointed at you. React to this stupidity and the chances of you getting shot are pretty high.

Quoting lewis (Reply 65):
Not all laws, it all depends on the severity. I wouldn't call being fined violent. I would also not consider not being allowed to drive violent.

Absolutely ALL laws require violent force to enforce them. If they did not, people would laugh at the police officers and simply awl away.

Quoting lewis (Reply 65):
No it is the law. Again, you do not have a god-given right to drive a car. Driving a car comes with certain rules and conditions. Unless you can prove effectively on the spot that you really do have a valid license, the officers would be right to not allow you to drive. For all they know you could have had your license revoked or had no license to begin with.

There is no right to initiated an act of violence. It would require an act of violence to stop me from driving off to my destination as if it nothing happened.

Quoting lewis (Reply 65):
If you do that you will definitely raise suspicion.

Of what?

Quoting lewis (Reply 65):
Maybe try to shoot if he sees you are endangering the life of other drivers-pedestrians with the way you are driving while running away but still the chances are slim.

Just driving away, normally, will probably yield the same result.

Quoting lewis (Reply 65):
So...no. Draconian = very severe or cruel. What you describe is none of the above.

Use of force against a non-violent person is very severe!

Quoting lewis (Reply 65):
First things first, that would be stupid. Someone with the intent to kill someone else would follow them from the residence and would like to see the person getting in the car, just to be sure they are shooting the right person and not the baby sitter picking up the kids or worse, the husband! Second, you have created such a Hollywood scenario to prove that license plates are an invasion of privacy and may result to someone's death that the point you are trying to make is just not there.

Holywood scenario?? That scenario, with some variations, happens all the time! Especially in Brazil and with drug gangs.

Second, following someone may raise suspicion. Minimizing that is probably the smart thing to do, rather than track them all the way from the house.



Quoting tugger (Reply 66):
What about tollways that use RFID's etc. to track and charge you for their use?

Many are private operations and widely use these transponders etc. for toll billing and collection. Honestly I think you are making no different an agreement with them when you use their roads compared to using "public" roads. A system to identify and confirm that you are properly there and that is use to properly locate and bill you for any fees is perfectly acceptable if you choose to voluntarily sign up for them.

Tollway RFIDs have a very specific purpose and law enforcement would need a court order to get any sort of information about you driving through a toll. Ideally, such an RFID would be completely anonymous, so that even if the NSA wanted to track you down there is no way the company could provide such information.

Quoting lewis (Reply 67):
By doing a quick check I found out that depending on the state and whether or not you are an ass to the officer, the following may happen:

-Just a warning.
-Just a citation.
-Have someone bring the DL to you.
-Have them escort you home if you live close by.
-Run your plates and your name and figure out if you are a holder of a valid DL - provided you have other forms of ID.

Worst case scenario they may take you to the station to ID you but that is rare and would happen only if there are issues with identifying you or if you just give them a hard time and try to drive away as you said. If any law enforcer could verify the above that would be great.

Again, hardly draconian, unless you are an anarchist and any form of law or authority is an issue for you.

Just because the officer won't necessarily pull his gun out of the holster does not mean force is not being threatened. Ask yourself if such a scenario would ever play out if officers were prohibited from committing acts of violence.

Quoting flymia (Reply 68):
But you said it is a right to drive a car, so you agree a pilot needs to pass certain test to get a license to fly a plane. So you agree that a driver of a car should need to pass certain test to get a license to drive a car. Having a license to do something makes it a privilege not a right.

I don't agree with any of that. To be a pilot or a driver you need to talk to a doctor, an instructor and finish basic training successfully. You don't need to talk to a government bureaucrat.

For that matter, U.S. regulations regarding driver education are a joke anyways. Might as well do away with them.

Quoting flymia (Reply 68):
I don't know how this discussion got like this. I think being worried about license plate privacy takes it to another level. If you ever been to the Untied States and I had you full name and DOB, where I worked last year (DHS/ICE) I could get a ton of information about you. Are you paranoid about me or entering the Untied States or any country for that matter? I would imagine so if a license plate is such a violation of your rights.

I've lived in the US for several years now. I am not paranoid about my privacy in any way, but would certainly not mind cutting out anything that is needless that could potentially hurt my privacy. This is a serious issue for a lot of people even if it is not for me.

Quoting Mir (Reply 69):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Actually I think the law says the government cannot take your private pilots license away.

They can. They can suspend it, but they can also revoke it.

A commercial certificate, yes. But a PPL? Not so sure. . .

Quoting Mir (Reply 69):
Then you're going to get in trouble. As you should. You don't get to decide which laws you're going to be held to and which you aren't.

Civil disobedience.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 71, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
he will pull a gun on you sooner or later.

I don't think you understand the use of force. If you get a gun pulled on you for not having a DL then you hit the jackpot... go to any lawyer and you're gonna be a rich man

Drive away without permission for a cop that pulled you over for no good reason at all and you will probably end up on the ground, face down with at least one gun pointed at you. React to this stupidity and the chances of you getting shot are pretty high.

Let me just add one thing to this:

If you react to a cop and he feels threatened, it's not unreasonable to expect him to pull the trigger. I am not blaming the cop in this. I am blaming the job he was asked to do. He should not be required to do this. It puts him in an unfair situation.

It's sort of like laws that require people to vote. Even the government doesn't have the balls to send cops after people who don't vote. Why? Because it's obviously victimless and the idea of sending armed men after such a person is too absurd.

[Edited 2013-10-30 16:11:00]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 72, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
A commercial certificate, yes. But a PPL? Not so sure. . .

Yes. Any certificate can be revoked.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
Civil disobedience.

Which you're free to partake in, but not without consequence.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 73, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
For what? Driving without a license - in other words, yet another ridiculous victimless crime??

Um for refusing whatever punishment the cop gives you and drive away? Am I being crazy here? If you have a problem fight it in court, that's where you protest a charge. You don't just get to say "screw you, driving without a DL is ok and I refuse your citation, I'm outta here"

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
at least one gun pointed at you

      Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Unless you are posing serious bodily harm or death to the cop or others (in a reasonable cop's opinion) you will not have a gun pointed at you. Taser? Yeah, all day. But not a gun. If you do go get a lawyer and go after the cop. That is a completely unacceptable use of force and you'll make a lot of money. Anyone, please chime in if I'm wrong (and I'm talking about what the law says not what one or two rouge cops do)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 74, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
Um for refusing whatever punishment the cop gives you and drive away? Am I being crazy here? If you have a problem fight it in court, that's where you protest a charge. You don't just get to say "screw you, driving without a DL is ok and I refuse your citation, I'm outta here"

Maybe you are looking at this from a cop's perspective. I am not.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
Taser? Yeah, all day.

Still coercive in nature.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 75, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 74):
Maybe you are looking at this from a cop's perspective. I am not.

I'm looking at it from a legal point of view. Don't have to be pro-cop or anti-cop to say that you can't just drive off from a cop because you don't like what they're doing. Why shouldn't everyone drive away from cops? You don't agree with a punishment then you fight it in court and vote against it in the ballot box. What's stopping me from going 100 in a 55 zone in the middle of the night and after getting pulled over and saying "I'm sorry officer, you're being ridiculous, it's the middle of the night, no one is out here, see ya" and drive away in protest. Ridiculous

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 74):
Still coercive in nature.

Yes but it's a far cry from guns. I don't want to get into a taser debate but you saying you'd get guns pulled on you and that's just not true

[Edited 2013-10-30 16:54:46]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 76, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 74):
Maybe you are looking at this from a cop's perspective. I am not.

The "I should be able to violate whatever laws I see fit to without consequence" perspective isn't really a credible one.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 77, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

In NJ, for many years, a paper temp tag with a number and expiration date would be put on the back window. As of the last year, they now issue a 30 day temp tag the same size of a regular plate, that is printed out by the dealer, with a bold letter/number, the VIN # of the car, dealership issuing, with a expiration date (30 days) put at the rear license plate location. It is used until your new plates are delivered or your plates are transferred to the new car. In NJ plates and registration are with the owner, not the car, in CA, the registration and plate is issued upon new or 1st registration in CA.
I suspect the recent change in NJ was due in part from the significant use of E-Z Pass for road tolls, the difficulty in the old temp tags not readable on toll cameras, too many not putting their plates by expiration. Some window tags damaged rear window defroster wires, and on many vehicles, were unreable.
In many countries, the dealership puts on the initial plate from the time it gets to them, the purchasing owners information later entered in their Motor Vehicle registration systems. This is probably what will happen in CA.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 78, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3620 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 75):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 74):
Still coercive in nature.

Yes but it's a far cry from guns.

Violence is violence. Just because your life is not necessarily being threatened does not make it right.

Quoting Mir (Reply 76):
The "I should be able to violate whatever laws I see fit to without consequence" perspective isn't really a credible one.

I don't believe in that, at all. But if someone violates a law that is a corruption of justice, I don't mind. This person violated nothing. The law is the violation.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19924 posts, RR: 59
Reply 79, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3627 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
I've always wondered about cars with no plates running around LA ... now I know LOL! Is California the only state that allows one to run without plates for a certain period of time?

I know that at least in Michigan and NYC, a new car comes without plates and they are delivered later. In both states, there is some sort of temporary window sticker used. This was also the case for my car here in CA.

But I agree: 1) You do not have a fundamental right to privacy when you are driving your car. In consenting to operate a motor vehicle, you are subject to certain rules and there is implied consent for certain searches, such as breathalyzer tests. 2) Those using bridges and toll roads/lanes should pay for them. 3) License plates are useful for law enforcement situations such as hit-and-runs or reckless driving.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

Very recently we had an amber alert and the CHP were able to post the car's color, make/model/year, and plates. And had the kidnapper removed the plates, then a plateless car meeting the color and make/model/year would certainly get pulled over.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Don't mix up issues. Driving a car is not a right to the extent you have to pay for the cost of it, it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

It is a right in that the government may not simply revoke your license for no good reason, but that is the end of it. They certainly can revoke your license.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
There is no right to initiated an act of violence. It would require an act of violence to stop me from driving off to my destination as if it nothing happened.

I would very much enjoy watching you try it.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 80, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3616 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
It is a right in that the government may not simply revoke your license for no good reason, but that is the end of it. They certainly can revoke your license.

Just because they can do it today doesn't make it right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):
There is no right to initiated an act of violence. It would require an act of violence to stop me from driving off to my destination as if it nothing happened.

I would very much enjoy watching you try it.

For your thugs to shoot me? No thanks. I don't recommend anyone do it, either. Too many brutes in power.

Aren't you technically a felon due to some ridiculous traffic law? Or did you manage to get that expunged?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 78):
But if someone violates a law that is a corruption of justice

Not a corruption of justice to require you to prove your qualifications for operating a car while operating that car. It's required for airplanes as well, at any certificate level.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 82, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
Not a corruption of justice to require you to prove your qualifications for operating a car while operating that car. It's required for airplanes as well, at any certificate level.

It's a corruption of justice and of logic. Not having a license does not in any way mean you are not qualify to drive a car or fly a 747.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 83, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 82):
Not having a license does not in any way mean you are not qualify to drive a car or fly a 747.

Actually, that is the definition of what it means. The license is the qualification. Without it, you do not have the qualification. You might have left it at home accidentally, but how is the police officer to know that to be the case?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 84, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 83):
Actually, that is the definition of what it means. The license is the qualification. Without it, you do not have the qualification. You might have left it at home accidentally, but how is the police officer to know that to be the case?

So because the police officer cannot tell that you are qualified to fly a 747, you therefore must not be qualified to fly a 747?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 84):
So because the police officer cannot tell that you are qualified to fly a 747, you therefore must not be qualified to fly a 747?

You do know there are ways of looking up your name to see if you have a valid DL? Most cops I know would probably let you off with a warning as long as you don't piss them off or drive away in protest or something. I don't know why you have such a strong stance against some of the most basic laws society has come up with... society, it consists of more than just you. The police aren't enforcing their own vigilante justice, they are only doing what society dictates



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 86, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3571 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 84):
So because the police officer cannot tell that you are qualified to fly a 747, you therefore must not be qualified to fly a 747?

Are you suggesting that I should be able to certify myself to fly a 747? Or even certify myself to drive a car? Because both of those ideas are ludicrous.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 87, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3569 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 85):

Extremely easy to imagine a person who learned to drive in a farm but never got his/her driver's license but is a perfectly capable driver that meets or exceeds the government's requirements.

Saying that because the government doesn't know this you must not be qualified is like saying that illegal immigrants don't exist as people because they don't have papers. It's the epitome of absurdity.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 88, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 86):
Are you suggesting that I should be able to certify myself to fly a 747? Or even certify myself to drive a car? Because both of those ideas are ludicrous.

You're probably still going to need an instructor, right? I am not suggesting in any way you just jump in a 747.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 89, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 87):
Extremely easy to imagine a person who learned to drive in a farm but never got his/her driver's license but is a perfectly capable driver that meets or exceeds the government's requirements.

However, look at it from a random person on the street's point of view. The driver has been pulled over, and the most likely reason for that is that they were violating the traffic code; in other words, they were driving in an unsafe manner. Would I want the police to trust them when they say they are qualified to drive the car and aren't just out there without a clue as to what they're doing, knowing that they could pose a danger to me? I think not.

If they meet or exceed the government's requirements, then getting the license should be no trouble at all.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 88):
You're probably still going to need an instructor, right? I am not suggesting in any way you just jump in a 747.

But you're suggesting that I could. And if I were questioned about it, I could just say "oh yeah, I'm qualified to fly this" and that would be sufficient.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 87):
Extremely easy to imagine a person who learned to drive in a farm but never got his/her driver's license but is a perfectly capable driver that meets or exceeds the government's requirements.

How do I know your father/mother/whoever taught you didn't teach you horribly? A bit off topic, but this is demonstrated so well with firearms. I hear people complaining about the idea of mandatory firearms training, one person in particular I'm thinking of. Had firearms his whole life and his dad taught him since he was young. Problem is, his father sucks at safety (I mean is EGREGIOUS) and now his son is. I won't even go shooting with him he's so dangerous

So yeah, society sets standards through the government because I don't care if you learned how to drive on a farm since age 3, do you know how to drive off the farm? Were you taught well or where do you drive all redneck? You seem to treat government as some giant, unfair entity. While it is inefficient and stupid at times, it is mostly dictated by society. So yes, get a license and prove you can drive. Prove through your license to the cop (enforcers of society's laws) that you can drive at society's standards because let's be honest, I don't know you, and I don't trust just your word that you can drive. I don't care how much unlicensed driving you did

Learn to live with society, they do stuff we don't like sometimes, but that's life. If you don't like whatever society is imposing the rules, vote to change those rules or move away. I don't know why these minor, basic rules are so painful to conform to



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 91, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3530 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 89):
The driver has been pulled over, and the most likely reason for that is that they were violating the traffic code

Maybe a tail light was out. Can happen to anybody.

Quoting Mir (Reply 89):
in other words, they were driving in an unsafe manner. Would I want the police to trust them when they say they are qualified to drive the car and aren't just out there without a clue as to what they're doing, knowing that they could pose a danger to me? I think not.

Considering the pathetic standards to get a driver's license in the U.S., and how that has not resulted in a worse accident rate than in countries with stricter standards, I think yes.

Quoting Mir (Reply 89):
If they meet or exceed the government's requirements, then getting the license should be no trouble at all.

It's a pain in the ass to jump through all the hoops. I've heard horror stories of people having to drive for hours to find an examiner or else get in line for weeks for the local examiner.

But never mind all that. Let's say someone would like to go the civil disobedience way just to prove a point. Criminal, or not?

Quoting Mir (Reply 89):
But you're suggesting that I could. And if I were questioned about it, I could just say "oh yeah, I'm qualified to fly this" and that would be sufficient.

If you somehow manage to learn everything on your own, then apply for a job and the airline checks you out and says you're good, then you're good! If you know what you are doing then you know what you are doing, simple as that. The FAA will make exactly zero difference.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
How do I know your father/mother/whoever taught you didn't teach you horribly?

That's how driver training in the US works! And it works as well if not better than most EU countries.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
Had firearms his whole life and his dad taught him since he was young. Problem is, his father sucks at safety (I mean is EGREGIOUS) and now his son is. I won't even go shooting with him he's so dangerous

Bad apple. That's really all that can be said. Sometimes it's not even his dad's teaching abilities, it's just who he is and so is his son. That's the thing with driving and I am sure flying - you cannot get a license for decision making. And that's more important than parallel parking.

Now, how many bad apples get their driver's license every day? The roads are full of them.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 90):
I don't know why these minor, basic rules are so painful to conform to

It's not the rules that bother me, but the principle behind them. Most people and companies impose on themselves much tighter rules than the government creates.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2368 posts, RR: 2
Reply 92, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3504 times:
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Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21):
Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

In Illinois, many (perhaps most or all) dealers have a stack of new plates on site. They just need to print the authorization sticker*, do a bit of computer work, and toss the now valid plate to the prep guys. Added about two minutes to the finance/paperwork part of the process for me a month ago. They can also transfer old plates, although the transfer fee is such here that unless you have most of the year still left before expiration, the new tags are cheaper (IIRC, it's about $70 to transfer, and $101 for new plates good for a year).

You can also get new plates (and annual stickers) at most currency exchanges, and other non-DMV locations.

So at least when buying through a dealer this should not be much of a burden. Not sure how it applies to private sales, though.



*That needs just an ordinary laser printer.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 93, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3500 times:

So will CA make it manditory for all cars without plates to have them? I noticed a lot of plateless cars this summer. If you don't have a plate you should be fined and if you are a repeat offender your vehicle should be confiscated.

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3016 posts, RR: 7
Reply 94, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3471 times:
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Quoting lewis (Reply 41):
I actually like it. It means I can walk into a dealership and then out with a brand new car in a matter of minutes. Back home I would have to wait for days (sometimes even a couple of weeks) for the plates to arrive at the dealership. You still do get the temporary sticker at the front and everything.

Even that potential issue has been addressed in the UK in relation to main dealers.

They are ascribed batch regional plate numbers in advance via the DVLA (Government body responsible for vehicle and driver licensing). The reason for the dealers post code on the plate is to identify that the plates were produced by the dealer in question and against a specific ascribed batch.

They can produce plates on site and install immediately and you can sort out the road tax same day at post office/regional DVLA office.

All that said main dealer show rooms hold little if anything in the way of unsold stock and unregistered stock.
Normally you do have to await delivery from warehousing or factory if you choose anything beyond basic stock finishes.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 95, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
If I had my temp sticker still I would not have gotten my red light ticket either. Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

Great. In Sweden they have a law which says that the police can´t go after the owner of a vehicle (e.g. like in Germany, identify the owner based on the registration number, and then he will have the choice of either to divulge who used his car or get the ticket himself), so they have to catch and arrest a traffic offender in the act, even if they got the registration number.
This leads to acts like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0EjLVGDJxQ, with a guy on a motorbike running through rush hour traffic at 250 km/h (being filmed by his buddies). Of course, the police cars are either much slower or they are not willing to risk a massive accident in a pursuit, so this guy got away multiple times (though I think he killed himself in the end).

Jan

[Edited 2013-10-31 03:58:10]

Add on:
Here you have to register your car in the county you are living in (because part of the road tax goes to this county for road maintenance). The first 1-2 letters of the number plate signify the county or city, while the others are a random number.
You can´t operate a vehicle without registration at all. So, if you want to pick up a secondhand car, you´ll get yourself a set of temporary number plates, valid for 7 days (and you´ll have to prove that you are insured as well, third party liability insurance). Dealers or garages have usually a set of number plates with red letters, which they can swap from one car to another for test rides, they have to keep a logbook on which car they were installed at any given time and who was the driver.
For a permanent registration you go to your county´s or city´s registration office. You need to bring along ID, a certificate from an insurance company and the latest (still current) report from the technical road safety inspection.

Jan


[Edited 2013-10-31 04:09:25]

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 96, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

In France until a few years ago you put temporary plates on a new car (sometimes home made) that could identify you, until the papers went through the bureaucracy. Now they've totally changed the system, each car gets an ID from factory (first sale really, but the salesman does the registration on the spot) to scrapper, so you get your plates right away, and if buying a used car you don't need to change the plates. I bought a used car from before that time so when I registered it the ID changed to the new system, but now it's for the life of the car.

With both systems no vehicle can be on the road without plates, so it wouldn't be a good strategy to try that to avoid fines etc. Instead people put fake plates, often with a real ID from another vehicle. Frankly outside of career criminals I don't know why you would do that, it can lend you in jail for years !

If you're Fangio and want to avoid penalties, the way to do it is to not own your Ferrari but instead rent it, preferably from a company in eastern Europe. And not get arrested, of course !

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
I personally think we should go to an RFID system, that would be very simple and would vastly reduce out of date registration issues, no need for cameras, etc.

Well avoidance tactics will certainly lead to this, with a far greater loss of privacy as a result.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAyostoLeon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 97, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 87):

Very interesting debate and thank you for keeping the thread alive much longer than it might otherwise have lasted.

Qualified and capable are not interchangeable words when it comes to licensing. To obtain a license you need to demonstrate the capability. Sure you may have learned to drive on a farm track. But how many merging lanes, traffic lights, roundabouts, cautionary, compulsory or informative signs are erected on the average farm. Do you typically get up to 110km/h on the average farm track and do you often overtake B-doubles and three trailer road trains as you weave among the sheep? Can the physical ability to drive on a farm be equated with indepth knowledge of driving on a public road in towns, cities or interstate highways. The track may be rougher but there is likely to be a lot less traffic.

Sure , you know which gear to engage going through a boggy patch or up a steep incline , and you have a better knowledge of how lifestock behave on unfenced roads, but how does that translate into knowing who has right of way at an intersection or what the various parking restriction signs mean? I am not being completely facetious here as I have actually had to remove sheep from a runway on a pastoral station to allow planes to land during a bash for the Flying Doctor.

Being qualified means that you have demonstrated to the satisfaction of a competent examiner that you are indeed capable of handling various traffic conditions and are aware of the road law. Such a qualification can not guarantee that you will never be involved in a RTA but should safety on the roads be jeopardized simply because you think it is inconvenient to sit a test?

[Edited 2013-10-31 06:06:15]

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12701 posts, RR: 25
Reply 98, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3382 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Most of the time, people stop in an accident. The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

I'll point out that there are (too many) people here in the US illegally and they don't have any known identity as far as government/police databases are concerned. They buy beater or stolen cars cheap using cash. Good luck finding one of these people after a hit and run. I guarantee you they won't stop because they have no insurance, no registration, no license and know they're going to be deported if they get caught.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21):
Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

A) This isn't a real problem, is it? Even when I've bought a car off the lot with cash, they still want to keep it for a day or to do 'dealer prep'.

B) There are lots of work-arounds. Most dealers can issue a paper tag good for 14 days. People don't like to keep them on the car too long because cops just love to pull over people using a paper tag.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 99, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3374 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 95):
so they have to catch and arrest a traffic offender in the act, even if they got the registration number.

Sweden is covered in speed cameras.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 96):
but now it's for the life of the car.

So france has caught up with most other countries. Makes a lot more sense having the palte for the life of the car.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 100, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 97):

I learned the meaning of just about every road sign out there before I even got behind the wheel the first time. As far as driving in cities and highways, there is really no requirement to show you have this ability at least in the US. My driving test in the US was literally a quick drive around a neighborhood and back to the DMV. No highways, no major traffic. Then they had a safe, cordoned off area for you to parallel park and a couple of other things.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 97):
Such a qualification can not guarantee that you will never be involved in a RTA but should safety on the roads be jeopardized simply because you think it is inconvenient to sit a test?

I think that the American experience shows that such tests are unnecessary and the bureaucracy expensive.

If insurance companies want to get together and make some kind of educational course that they require or give you a discount on your premiums if you attend, go ahead. They already do that to some extent. In fact, the only Americans I know that went through formal driving training did so for a 10% discount insurance companies offer.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 98):
I'll point out that there are (too many) people here in the US illegally and they don't have any known identity as far as government/police databases are concerned. They buy beater or stolen cars cheap using cash. Good luck finding one of these people after a hit and run. I guarantee you they won't stop because they have no insurance, no registration, no license and know they're going to be deported if they get caught.

Yet another reason to eliminate registration and licensing requirements.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineJoePatroni707 From United States of America, joined Dec 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3358 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 93):

Yes the current law allows to operate a vehicle without plates and merely the dealers cardboard advertisement for a period of up to six months. A temp sticker known as a dealers report of sale (ROS) sticker is affixed to the lower corner of the front windshield in the right corner. The sticker is approx the same size of a 3x5 card with the purchaser info as well as the vin. Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 102, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3346 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91):
That's how driver training in the US works! And it works as well if not better than most EU countries.

I'm saying I don't care where you learn to drive, you must meet the standards set by the government. By what I read (if I understood you correctly) you're saying that you could have learned on a farm so licenses mean nothing. No. Licenses mean that wherever you learned to drive, you did a satisfactory enough of a job

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91):
Now, how many bad apples get their driver's license every day? The roads are full of them.

So you're advocating tougher standards? I'm ok with that, but that seems to go in the opposite direction of what you're arguing

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91):
Most people and companies impose on themselves much tighter rules than the government creates.

Ironically, you are making a big deal about the government's rules on driving not being enough so you're doing what exactly what you are complaining about. But I don't follow your logic as it pertains to this discussion--having a plate and having a DL... that is what the government requires. How do people impose having "more than a plate or DL?" If you're talking about driver's ed making insurance lower, there is a very obvious reason for that



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 103, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103):
So you're advocating tougher standards? I'm ok with that, but that seems to go in the opposite direction of what you're arguing

Why would I? It doesn't result in lower accident rates.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103):
that is what the government requires. How do people impose having "more than a plate or DL?" If you're talking about driver's ed making insurance lower, there is a very obvious reason for that

Is it because of the additional training or because people who seek additional training are lower risk?

Obvious, huh?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 104, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

Why is anyone here still bothering to debate with PPVRA? He is just trolling and insisting on a ridiculous standard and personal definitions that makes no sense. He seems unable to comprehend that "the government" and "the law/rules" aren't something just abusively applied, but that they rather are created by the people using and living with the system and rules created. We create our own laws and insist they be applied to all, it is not some draconian measure imposed upon by some separate authority.

I think he is now just having fun and trolling (my personal opinion) so I stopped discussing it with him and just enjoy reading his ludicrous posts and reasoning (though I am not saying he always this way, he posts enough that I know he is intelligent and can make well reasoned arguments, he is just not doing so here). However I do fully agree that he is:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 97):
keeping the thread alive much longer than it might otherwise have lasted.
 

I think it is a good idea to have plates of some type, temporary or otherwise, in place from the time of purchase. I find it perfectly acceptable and something that can obviously be implemented with out much trouble. I will be curious to see how CA does implement it.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 105, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3335 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 104):
Why would I? It doesn't result in lower accident rates.

Driving training doesn't result in safer drivers? While I have no stats on hand, I can't say I believe you. Kinda ties in with the next quote:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 104):
Is it because of the additional training or because people who seek additional training are lower risk?

Obvious, huh?

Well it's pretty obvious it helps since insurance companies give you a discounted rate (because in the long run, they pay less because there are less accidents.) So yeah, pretty obvious.



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12701 posts, RR: 25
Reply 106, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3339 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 100):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 98):
I'll point out that there are (too many) people here in the US illegally and they don't have any known identity as far as government/police databases are concerned. They buy beater or stolen cars cheap using cash. Good luck finding one of these people after a hit and run. I guarantee you they won't stop because they have no insurance, no registration, no license and know they're going to be deported if they get caught.

Yet another reason to eliminate registration and licensing requirements.

I'm no fan of license plate scanners showing up everywhere, but I'm less of a fan of people who have come here illegally. The best way to deal with this issue is to make sure you can audit every business to make sure every employee is here legally and is paying the proper taxes. Again, I don't like license plate scanners but if they can help us get rid of illegal drivers I am willing to put up with them.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 101):
Yes the current law allows to operate a vehicle without plates and merely the dealers cardboard advertisement for a period of up to six months. A temp sticker known as a dealers report of sale (ROS) sticker is affixed to the lower corner of the front windshield in the right corner. The sticker is approx the same size of a 3x5 card with the purchaser info as well as the vin. Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

That's a bit of an advantage of the paper tag system: at least there is a number on the car that can be seen from outside.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 107, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106):
Driving training doesn't result in safer drivers? While I have no stats on hand, I can't say I believe you. Kinda ties in with the next quote:

Look them up. Driving in the US is no more dangerous than in Europe, where standards are tighter and driver's ed expensive.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106):
Well it's pretty obvious it helps since insurance companies give you a discounted rate (because in the long run, they pay less because there are less accidents.) So yeah, pretty obvious.

For which reason? I gave an alternative. Maybe the world is not as obvious as you think.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 108, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3315 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 108):
Look them up. Driving in the US is no more dangerous than in Europe, where standards are tighter and driver's ed expensive.

Comparing driving in the US to Europe is not a fair comparison. We do a lot more driving than we do. Perhaps us driving more makes us just as good as Europeans with driver's ed, regardless, not a great comparison IMO

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 108):
For which reason? I gave an alternative. Maybe the world is not as obvious as you think.

Which reason? I don't care. Whatever the reason, it seems to work. I don't see insurance companies lowering payments for no good reason



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 109, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
Comparing driving in the US to Europe is not a fair comparison. We do a lot more driving than we do. Perhaps us driving more makes us just as good as Europeans with driver's ed, regardless, not a great comparison IMO

More driving means more risk. Americans start driving at a much younger age, as young as 15. Insurance companies see greater than average risk until you are 25 years old, so that's a greater amount of risk exposure for a longer amount of time than in Europe.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108):
Which reason? I don't care. Whatever the reason, it seems to work. I don't see insurance companies lowering payments for no good reason

Just remembered: insurances also give discounts to students who get good grades. Another indication that driving safety is about making wise decisions, not your ability to parallel park. Good luck regulating that!

Fact of the matter is, driving is easy. Very easy. Bigger factors affecting safety appear to be unrelated to actual driving skills or in depth knowledge of traffic rules.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6122 posts, RR: 29
Reply 110, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3288 times:
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I used to live in St. Louis, Missouri and I would see A LOT of people with Illinois "Temp tags" What that meant to every cop in the city was "I don't have insurance and or a license, because in Illinois you didn't need them to get the temp tag. Temp tags are a great excuse to get pulled over and never give the police an excuse to pull me over.

Here in Michigan I see people driving with no plates and it is usually because the person never registers the car and just drives it anyway, likely not being caught. This is VERY common in Detroit where the police don't bother enforcing this kind of crime. Another popular thing that I have seen a lot of places is having an outdated out of state plate on the car. They probably think the police will not notice an out of state expired plate because the stickers aren't going to be as obvious to them as the ones they are used to seeing. The police would have to inspect the plate very closely to see the date. I notice this when I travel around the Midwest and see old Michigan plates (a type we don't have anymore) on cars. I see cars here in Detroit. I have noticed it in Michigan too. My parent's neighbor has had expired California plates on her car for 5 years, in Missouri. She told me that she'll register the car and get the correct plates if she gets pulled over. I bet she doesn't have a valid license either.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8320 posts, RR: 9
Reply 111, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54):
Or better, own and drive a car and not be forced to put a largely useless tag on it that on top of it being ugly, carries with it privacy risks.

The tag is only useless to you. However, when you are driving on public roads you need to comply with related laws and that includes plates on your car. Not a big deal to get excited about.

And "privacy"? If you want privacy then stay off of the public roads. You are going to be seen, just like you will if you walk into a store.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56):
A husband hire a murder to kill his wife.

And maybe the guy he tries to hire is an undercover cop and the husband gets arrested - not a very private thing.

Good effort at a long bow reach - even if there is no real target for you to hit.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
Or it means you are busy and forgot, or didn't notice the expiration. Or you forgot your "papers" at home. I bet this is 99% of the cases, at least in the U.S.

I forgot my wallet going to the store last week, but did have my DL number in my iPhone so I would have ben able to provide the number. Probably would have been given a voidable ticket if I was stopped.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59):
He can wait in a certain location until she drives by, and then follow her until a red light.

Still looking for some creative excuse not to have a plate? missed again.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
Correct me if I'm wrong but the computers in police cars can check if you have a valid DL.

The police can run your plates as you are being pulled over and our license when they are handed it. If running your plates hows a risk problem then backup can be called immediately.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62):
I don't see it as some egregious violation of privacy

It's not, especially when you are driving in public.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
It has happened to me once.

If you had been stopped you might have been given a ticket, but allowed to drive to the DMV. Depends if it was your DL to tag that had expired. Oklahoma has a 30 day grace period, with a $1 a day fine. After that it gets expensive.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed.

The police here have been pretty good at writing voidable tickets for situations where you lost your wallet. Especially when your wallet was stolen and you have your police report in the car for them to see if they stop you.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
All laws are enforced by violent force or the threat thereof. Traffic laws are no different. Being prohibited from driving because you forgot your license at home is ridiculous, and if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest, he will pull a gun on you sooner or later. Try to defend yourself from this absurdity and you may end up with a bullet lodged somewhere you don't want. Draconian? Yeah, absolutely.

You drive off after being stopped and you have raised sufficient red flags to get several more police cars involved. Now if you are one of the yo-yos with an open carry gun things can get even worse.

But before you drive off in "protest" remember that a ticket is a courtesy alternative to an actual arrest. Drive off when you are stopped and you get the full party. Cuffs, free ride to the police department, free photos & fingerprints and a not-so-nice place to stay until a lawyer gets you out. Then you get to try to find where your car was towed to and you get to pay that also.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
If you are worried about tax and registration, there are other ways to keep track of that.

The Tag & Tax system has been functioning too long for it to be stopped. It is one of those tax revenue systems that automatically has revenues increases based on the inflation impact of car prices. Live with it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64):
If you get a gun pulled on you for not having a DL then you hit the jackpot... go to any lawyer and you're gonna be a rich man

When a cop pulls a gun there is generally a pretty serious reason. Put that reason in front of a jury and you won;'t be so rich.

Also recognize that if a cop pulls a gun you are probably heading to jail. Your courtesy alternative to an arrest may have been lost because of your actions.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 112, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 101):
Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

What I was getting at is that no cars have to leave the dealers with a plate, will CA now make it mandatory that all existing cars without plates be made to wear them? It would be daft if they didn't.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12254 posts, RR: 35
Reply 113, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3236 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes. I don't see significant risks in not solving the case right away.

While the crash might have been an accident (generally very few crashes are true accidents), the hit and run is a crime from the moment you decided not to stick around.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.

Hmm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
I can think of a lot of randomly assigned digits that you would not be willing to post here.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/kaigywer/null_zpsc3f594b7.jpg

Since my privacy has been violated, come find me. First beer is on me when you do  
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.

See above

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
That is very far fetched. You do get notification that your license is expiring soon and that you need to renew. Its like saying you would arrive to the airport with an expired passport simply because you "forgot to check" or didn't notice. Well, sucks for you, you won't be traveling internationally that day.

Exactly.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60):
Which happens all the time. It is fine, nobody will shoot you and you will get away with a slap on the wrist. Correct me if I'm wrong but the computers in police cars can check if you have a valid DL.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63):
From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed. Not sure exactly what happens I've only heard stories.

There is indeed such a system. You give me your name and DOB, and I can find your DL on my computer. If you're from my state, I can also look up your photo to make sure you're not giving me a false name.

Quoting flymia (Reply 68):
Your understanding is wrong, at least in Florida. You give them you date of birth, name and address and they can look you up either by their own computer in the car or from dispatch. You may get a ticket for failure to present your license but no one is getting towed, arrested or being prohibited to drive unless you actually don't have a license or it is suspended. But it can vary state to state, I only know Florida law well.

Same in ND. You could get a ticket for no DL in possession, but I doubt those are issued very frequently.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73):
Anyone, please chime in if I'm wrong

I'll chime in that you're correct.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110):
This is VERY common in Detroit where the police don't bother enforcing this kind of crime.

I don't think it has so much to do with bother, as in have time because they are so short staffed. I read an article about DPD, and they are always dozens of high priority calls behind. Doesn't leave much time for traffic enforcement.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110):
Another popular thing that I have seen a lot of places is having an outdated out of state plate on the car. They probably think the police will not notice an out of state expired plate because the stickers aren't going to be as obvious to them as the ones they are used to seeing.

I know the colors of the states around me, and even if I don't, it takes only a few seconds to check the expiration on my computer.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 111):
If you had been stopped you might have been given a ticket, but allowed to drive to the DMV. Depends if it was your DL to tag that had expired. Oklahoma has a 30 day grace period, with a $1 a day fine. After that it gets expensive.

ND doesn't have a grace period, but I have a personal grace period of one month. Less than a month over, I will stop you and give you a warning. More than a month over, you get written proof of our meeting.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 114, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 101):
Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

30 days? Here I go to my county´s registration office with a cert from an insurance company, the car ownership cert (whoever can show this piece of paper is considered the legal owner, so you´d better keep it in a safe place and NOT in the car, it even says so on the paper) and the (still valid) report from the last technical road safety inspection. It will not take 10 minutes from the moment I have been called up to the clerk giving me a slip with my new registration number. With this I go to one of several numberplate embossing shops, which are usually located around the registraion office, and get my number plates printed (costs about 20 Euros for a car, motorbikes are cheaper because you only need one plate). Then I return to the registraion office, pay my fee and get the official seals afixed to the number plates and the certificate of registration (which I have to bring along when I´m driving).
I registered two vehicles this year, one car and one motorbike and each of them didn´t take me one hour. All I had to do was to mount the numberplates on my vehicle. Add to this half an hour drive each to and from the registration office to the village I live in.

Jan


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 115, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3217 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 111):
When a cop pulls a gun there is generally a pretty serious reason. Put that reason in front of a jury and you won;'t be so rich.

If a cop follows the law religiously, then yes, you done goofed. But in PPVRA's world they apparently point a gun at you if you forget your DL or in other non serious situations. I think he doesn't know what he's talking about, honestly. If he is drawn upon in these minor situations then yes, you're gonna make a lot of money (the point is, cops don't unless they're seriously violating the use of force)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 116, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3218 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113):
While the crash might have been an accident (generally very few crashes are true accidents), the hit and run is a crime from the moment you decided not to stick around.
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113):
Since my privacy has been violated, come find me. First beer is on me when you do  

Those points have already been addressed above.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113):
There is indeed such a system. You give me your name and DOB, and I can find your DL on my computer. If you're from my state, I can also look up your photo to make sure you're not giving me a false name.

Then why didn't GA police allow a former professor of mine to drive home and get her DL? They made somebody come and "rescue" her. To have the system and still be petty enough to not let that person drive home and get her DL is even worse. And it's really what I was complaining about - the requirement to have a piece of plastic on you or be considered a freaking criminal.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 117, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113):
Since my privacy has been violated, come find me. First beer is on me when you do  

By the way. . .

NSA admits employees spied on husbands, boyfriends, and girlfriends:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/20501...employees-spied-on-loved-ones.html


If that's happening at the NSA. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19924 posts, RR: 59
Reply 118, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3164 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 80):
Aren't you technically a felon due to some ridiculous traffic law? Or did you manage to get that expunged?

A misdimeanor. And yes, it was a ridiculous law. That doesn't mean that drivers licenses are bad. If anything, they are too easy to get.

[Edited 2013-10-31 15:59:36]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 119, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91):
Let's say someone would like to go the civil disobedience way just to prove a point. Criminal, or not?

Those who partake in civil disobedience generally face some sort of penalty. As they should, otherwise there would be no point in having laws to disobey.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12254 posts, RR: 35
Reply 120, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3140 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 116):
Then why didn't GA police allow a former professor of mine to drive home and get her DL?

Were you there when it happened? For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set. Always two sides to a story...except in your world of course, where only your side is correct.



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 121, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120):
Were you there when it happened? For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set.

I was not there, she shared the story with the class. No reason to believe she wasn't telling the full story.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120):
Always two sides to a story...except in your world of course, where only your side is correct.

Only my side is correct? Jeez. . . how many times must be repeated that a tag with numbers exposed to the public can be used by police AND the public. Even spoon feeding doesn't seem to work. I get counter-arguments like "the public doesn't have access to police system". . . really? Don't give me this poorly thought out crap. There are other ways to use publicly available identifying features.

It's not me that my ideology is blinding, which is quite telling.

[Edited 2013-10-31 16:33:37]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBraniff747SP From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 2997 posts, RR: 1
Reply 122, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3116 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 109):
Just remembered: insurances also give discounts to students who get good grades.

They do indeed, along with a handful of other discounts a student can get. I went through this process a while ago (I'm 16) and adding me to my father's policy actually pushed down his premiums. That should tell you how he drives...



The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 123, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3092 times:

My randomly assigned (in fact it's sequential not random) plate features "BN" which is a popular cookie, and "FN", a far right political party, too bad !

There is a small space where you can display one amongst the French departments (usually where you live, or hail from), not included originally but politicians lobbied for it because it seems people want to know from where people are (probably to say things like "of course he drives like a retard, he's from ....." ), I find that concept ludicrous and have experienced the consequence first hand as a kid when traveling from the Paris region to Brittany where my father is from, children would point fingers and call us names just by looking at the plate, so I chose Reunion Island (where I've never been, and you can't really drive from there to metropolitan France).



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 124, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 121):
how many times must be repeated that a tag with numbers exposed to the public can be used by police AND the public.

So do the public have access to the computer systems police have in your world, unless they do I don't see how they can use your plate.


User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 889 posts, RR: 0
Reply 125, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3034 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 123):

Spain went the other way on that, and have a centralised registration system for some time now, rather than regional. My friend from Seville said he preferred the new system as there was less theft and vandalism of out of town vehicles.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110):

Differences are what makes the world interesting I suppose. Personally I find it amazing that people think its entirely normal to drive in some places with no plates at all, or ones that expired years ago.



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 126, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 124):
So do the public have access to the computer systems police have in your world, unless they do I don't see how they can use your plate.

An example has already been given in this thread.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12701 posts, RR: 25
Reply 127, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110):
Here in Michigan I see people driving with no plates and it is usually because the person never registers the car and just drives it anyway, likely not being caught. This is VERY common in Detroit where the police don't bother enforcing this kind of crime.

That's unusual. Most cops know car registration aids in crime prevention and it also helps pay their salaries. One should think they could put on some cops to just clean up that problem and they'd pay for themselves.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110):
My parent's neighbor has had expired California plates on her car for 5 years, in Missouri. She told me that she'll register the car and get the correct plates if she gets pulled over. I bet she doesn't have a valid license either.

It's idiots like her that cause the fines to be so stiff.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 128, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Quoting offloaded (Reply 125):
Spain went the other way on that, and have a centralised registration system for some time now, rather than regional. My friend from Seville said he preferred the new system as there was less theft and vandalism of out of town vehicles.

I wasn't clear, before the system was department by department and you had to change plates if you moved from one to another (there are a hundred of them !), now the department indication is just decorative, the ID is on a national system. Next step is a European wide system.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 129, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2991 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128):
I wasn't clear, before the system was department by department and you had to change plates if you moved from one to another (there are a hundred of them !), now the department indication is just decorative, the ID is on a national system. Next step is a European wide system.

Your old system is like the Germsan system. In Ireland, where a car keeps the same registration number on it´s plate, which contains both the date of the first registration and the county, where it was registered in, people preferred cars registered in Dublin. Especially second hand car dealers complained that a car previously registered in the province would have less of a secondhand value. It seems that people want to be seen as sophisticated city dwellers and not as country hicks.
For me here I don´t care. My number plates start with COC, which means Cochem-Zell (two towns at the Moselle river, which, together with the surrounding villages, form a county). Before I used to have B for Berlin, MG for Moenchengladbach and K for Cologne.

Jan


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5712 posts, RR: 5
Reply 130, posted (11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128):
before the system was department by department and you had to change plates if you moved from one to another (there are a hundred of them !), now the department indication is just decorative, the ID is on a national system

It would be good if Australia adopted a similar approach. At the moment we have state-by-state registration, exactly the same as the USA (in fact our licenses plates are similarly identical). This can cause some issues on a national basis. One, law enforcement, has been mentioned throughout this thread. Another, which amuses me, is that apparently speed cameras in NSW couldn't identify Victorian license plates, so innocent New South Whalians were receiving speeding tickets clocked up by Victorians who had the same license plate combination! Then there are varying road safety standards between states. NSW require annual testing, while QLD and ACT don't, for example. Even the requirements to get a driving license vary by state, especially relating to our somewhat convoluted L and P system for young drivers. Overall, I think that moving to a national system, while highly unlikely to ever happen, would make the process much more efficient.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1376 posts, RR: 3
Reply 131, posted (11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2874 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):

A commercial certificate, yes. But a PPL? Not so sure. . .

Why should there be a difference? Verifiable safety is the same without regard.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 85):
I don't know why you have such a strong stance against some of the most basic laws society has come up with...

In fairness to PPVRA, it's really not so basic anymore.

While I agree that his position is quite very extreme and that most of what he is arguing against has valid reason to exist and should not be changed, there is an opposite, and frankly increasing level of bearuocratic extremism. Though outdated by a few years, this article is something I happened to randomly stumble up on the other day.

A DL & the associated registrations required to operate a vehicle are essential to road safety. And while I'm almost always in favor of increasing the level of scrutiny required to receive and maintain driver privelages, I do feel that the DMV is not a cookie jar for the state to use as an ad-hoc collection agency.

Question to the non-united statians here. Do you all have similar recourse for debt collection WRT driver licensing agencies in your countries? Just curious about that.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 92):

In Illinois, many (perhaps most or all) dealers have a stack of new plates on site.

Ok, a little off topic, but something I noticed a while back about Illinois. Do vanity tags cost less if they include a number? The last few times I've been that way I noticed that almost all the personalized plates I saw had numbers in them. Again, just curious here.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120):
For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set.

Just out of curiosity, why is it less of a big deal (lacking a better term) to operate with no license versus being suspended? I would think in either case there is a lack of sufficient demonstration of ability to safely operate.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14060 posts, RR: 62
Reply 132, posted (11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120):
For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set.

Just out of curiosity, why is it less of a big deal (lacking a better term) to operate with no license versus being suspended? I would think in either case there is a lack of sufficient demonstration of ability to safely operate.

In one case the person has e.g. simply left his license at home (here the fine for this is IIRC less than 10 Euros), and he can show it within the next few days at the nearest police station and everything is fine, but he is not banned from driving. Happened to me before, e.g. by accidentally leaving my wallet in my working trousers.

In the second case the person has already demonstrated that he is NOT as safe driver (the license has obviously been revoked for a reason) and is therefore being banned from driving on court order, or has never demonstrated that he knows how to operate a vehicle in a safe manner (and this also means to know and obey the traffic rules. I once knew a German anarchist, who complainerd that he had to obey traffic rules, claiming that to make him obey them the state bwould have had to ask him personally if he agreed with them).

Jan


User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1376 posts, RR: 3
Reply 133, posted (11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2855 times:

Jan,

I interpreted what KaiGywer said as never having been issued one, not simply leaving it at home. His () in the original statement seems to point in that direction. If that's not what he meant, than yes, I understand there is a mountain of difference between being suspended and just forgetting it at home.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 134, posted (11 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

Driving without a license (either revoked or never obtained) is very serious here and could lend you in jail if it's a repeat offense. It also means you don't have insurance and that's another serious offense. The car would also be impounded and if convicted kept by the state.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Question to the non-united statians here. Do you all have similar recourse for debt collection WRT driver licensing agencies in your countries? Just curious about that.

In France we don't have something similar to the DMV, in fact a DL is not an ID (although it can be used as a substitute in some circumstances, but not to take a flight for example), and you get it for life unless you lose it. My parents' DL have pictures of them in their 20s, very funny ! The ID card is mandatory for many things (and is free) and the state doesn't mess with it as far as I know.

What your link says is both ridiculous and outrageous !

Since most people receive something from the government here, even if uber rich (children's benefits and tax breaks), there is no need to play such games to recover money, you just cut the benefits.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGrisee08 From United States of America, joined Mar 2013, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2802 times:
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Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113):

I see that if I flip that upside down, you must like to play 9 holes. 9hole = 37046

I for one can't stand people without license plates. It helps me report drunk/stupid drivers to the local Law Enforcement. I for one, value my life, and am willing to rat on anybody who dares attempt to extinguish it.



You're Losing The Game!
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12254 posts, RR: 35
Reply 136, posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2753 times:
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Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Just out of curiosity, why is it less of a big deal (lacking a better term) to operate with no license versus being suspended? I would think in either case there is a lack of sufficient demonstration of ability to safely operate.
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 133):
I interpreted what KaiGywer said as never having been issued one, not simply leaving it at home. His () in the original statement seems to point in that direction. If that's not what he meant, than yes, I understand there is a mountain of difference between being suspended and just forgetting it at home.

You interpreted correctly. I guess you'll have to ask our legislature about that one... To be honest, I don't know why. I guess a suspended driver has already proven themselves to be a "bad driver", while as one without one hasn't proven him/herself one way or another. One is a $20 fine, the other is a misdemeanor. Some of our laws don't make a whole lot of sense.

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 135):
I see that if I flip that upside down, you must like to play 9 holes. 9hole = 37046

Haha, I played 9 hole once. Never done any other golfing, other than mini golfing  



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5711 posts, RR: 6
Reply 137, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Question to the non-united statians here. Do you all have similar recourse for debt collection WRT driver licensing agencies in your countries?

In my state in Australia, most definitely yes. Although our D/Ls are valid for 5 years so the first recourse is to cancel the vehicle registration and then D/L, after that the vehicle can be seized and eventually any assets.

Gemuser



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User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 138, posted (11 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70):

A commercial certificate, yes. But a PPL? Not so sure. . .

Why should there be a difference? Verifiable safety is the same without regard.

Then why are there different standards for a PPL and CPL?

In fact, your question raises a related issue - what is the point of a CPL? The physics of flight don't change when you get paid for flying.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 139, posted (11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

The reason CA gives you 6 months to put on plates is because their beauracracy is so slow that they can take up to 3 months to mail you the plates! I once went an entire summer without plates because the state took so long.

Most states aren't run this way. Plates come quickly, or are provided by dealers, are easily transferable from old car to new, or can be assigned and picked up at the DMV at any time.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21):
Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

There is no reason this has to be the case.

That's simply a rule change that would allow the dealer to interface with a computer to check your record to make sure you are allowed to register a car, and then submit the paperwork on Monday. The dealer should have plates in a locked area and issue them like many states already allow. I know in Ohio you get the plates when you get the car. It's not a big deal.

If you are trading a car, you should be able to transfer the plates without issue like many states.

Or you could do what Massachusetts does (did?) where you must register the car yourself and you have 72 hours to do so, so that way if you buy it on Friday night you have until Monday night to do it.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 77):
In many countries, the dealership puts on the initial plate from the time it gets to them, the purchasing owners information later entered in their Motor Vehicle registration systems. This is probably what will happen in CA.

California already does this, but only for high value/high theft vehicles. If you buy a Ferrari or Mercedes SL, you will get plates immediately.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinestarrymarkb From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2011, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2406 times:

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21):
Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

In the UK dealers will be assigned a range of numbers (ie WA63 ABA-ABZ), when a vehicle is sold, the dealer registers the vehicle with the DVLA and issues a Tax Disc. Before sale the vehicle can be driven but must have 'Trade Plates' which a temporary licence plates assigned to companies in the motor trade displayed front and rear


User currently offlineDarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1376 posts, RR: 3
Reply 141, posted (11 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
In fact, your question raises a related issue - what is the point of a CPL? The physics of flight don't change when you get paid for flying.

The biggest difference is that you're responsible for more lives than your own and/or whatever cargo has been consigned to your care. Same as having a CDL v DL.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineNOLAWildcat From United States of America, joined Oct 2013, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

As a new California resident I was very surprised that the state did not issue temporary tags like other states for new cars. Has the state determined whether they will issue paper tags for new cars leaving the dealer? Also the point was brought up (facetiously) that one of the reasons that California let you drive with no plates for 90 days was due to delays in getting your new plates mailed to the owner. In Louisiana, I was required to physically visit the DMV to get tags for my new car. It was a quick and striaghtforward process to get the tags once I got there. I find it interesting that California would mail the plates for a new car to the owner, especially since I was required to go to the Oakland DMV to get my California tags when I moved here.


Wall-to-wall Football is ruining my weekend.
User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 143, posted (11 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 142):

I'm living in San Diego just bought a brand new car on Labor Day weekend.they taped a small folded paper registration printout to the top right corner front windshield. I've noticed the same thing on other new cars driving around last week. My plates came in the mail 2 weeks later. Hope that helps.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 144, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 141):
The biggest difference is that you're responsible for more lives than your own and/or whatever cargo has been consigned to your care. Same as having a CDL v DL.

You can transport passengers with just a private pilots license. You just can't get paid to do it.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 145, posted (11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Well, back in my younger days, we didn't require license plates for our horses or a DL to operate them. The only thing was that if someone stole a horse, he/she was shot or hung. Nowadays, people get a slap on the wrist for stealing a car (plate or no plate), get released for a future court date and then go out and steal another car in the meantime.

I'm of the thinking that irrespective of license plates being another tax collection, I also believe in this time and day, they are important for many reasons, as has been presented in this topic. And I agree.

I must add a story from about 1975 or so when I had to transport a vehicle without plates from Detroit to Dearborn for some repairs I had no expertise with. Instead of simply swapping plates from another vehicle, adult beverages prevailed, and I took some lacquered white cardstock and rendered a phoney license plate right down to the faint shadows on the lowers and sides of the numbers (Michigan used to emboss their plates then). Even used a piece of reflective 3M tape for the update sticker on the lower right hand side. It was perfect. Everything went swimmingly until I was stopped at a red light on Michigan Avenue. There was a Dearborn Police car behind me. It started to rain. I had used water-soluble designer's gouache instead of a latex-based paint for the numbers. The numbers started to drip down. Guess who went to jail?

Quick end of story...I was charged with the obvious, plus forgery. The judge had a sense of humour (as did the arresting officer after all this was presented) and I escaped with reduced charges paying only court costs, and a 25 dollar fine (but of course I had to spend some four hours in the tank until my buddy bailed me out). So be it for yesterday. best regards...jack



all best; jack
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26593 posts, RR: 75
Reply 146, posted (11 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
They are ugly and. . .

I don't agree with that. Some are quite cool.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
. . . privacy issues.

No. Besides, all some nefarious baddie has to do is wait till you park and take a peak at your VIN. Or should we get rid of those too?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

There are plenty of reasons for license plates - and not ones that are tax-related.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

That can be done without license plates too.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 130):
Another, which amuses me, is that apparently speed cameras in NSW couldn't identify Victorian license plates, so innocent New South Whalians were receiving speeding tickets clocked up by Victorians who had the same license plate combination!

Now speed cameras are stupid. As are a lot of speed limits.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 124):
So do the public have access to the computer systems police have in your world, unless they do I don't see how they can use your plate.

Well - car dealerships have access to such systems.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 139):
The reason CA gives you 6 months to put on plates is because their beauracracy is so slow that they can take up to 3 months to mail you the plates! I once went an entire summer without plates because the state took so long.

No, that's not the reason, though mailing plates is much cheaper and more efficient for the general economy than forcing people to trundle over to the DMV to pick up a pair.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 144):
You can transport passengers with just a private pilots license. You just can't get paid to do it.

You can't even get your gas paid for, like you can when you give someone a ride in a car.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinecptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3220 posts, RR: 12
Reply 147, posted (11 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1835 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 146):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
They are ugly and. . .

I don't agree with that. Some are quite cool

Some are hideous, some o.k., some cool. BUT, I hate plates on the front of vehicles. Usually messes up the styling, particularly on newer models. I'm glad that many U.S. states, mine included, have done away with front plates although some people still slap on a vanity or specialty plate on the front end. I love the goobers with the old Dodge or Ford trucks or the Honda sedan sporting a Dale Earnhardt #3 front plate. ...jack



all best; jack