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My First Car Accident. Differently Next Time?  
User currently offlineklm672 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2485 posts, RR: 3
Posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2499 times:

Hey,

I just wanted to know if this is the norm and what, if anything, I could do differently next time. A few weeks ago I was backed into. I was pulling into a parking lot during my lunch time and next thing I know I was backed into. I didn't see her. She must've not seen me, either and simply backed up. The timing couldn't been worse as she backed right into me! This was my first accident, so I wasn't sure exactly what to do. I took down the person's name and insurance info. I know I should've taken it a step further and called the police, but no one was hurt. My car was roughed up a little bit and her car seemed ok, minus a rear light cap popping out. While getting her info, she asked "well, how do you see that this happened?" I said "well, I was driving and all of a sudden I feel my whole car shake...that's when you hit me". She simply said "yeah.."

My Insurance: Geico

Her Insurance: Nationwide


I filed a claim through my insurance and it was determined "not at fault" (duh, she backed into me). I spoke to my insurance company who filed on my behalf to her insurance company. I sent in pictures of my car which I took right after the accident. I know I should've taken pictures of her car as well. A few days went by and she sent in her pictures. I did a statement with her company and my company and it was determined by my company I was not at fault, but her company said it was my fault (they said there was "conflicting information"). Based on the pictures, it was determined that I was at fault. My insurance company seemed to simply shurg their shoulders and say "yeah, they're not Nationwide is not paying, sorry". Just like that, it was over. I clearly was not at fault. They are "going after" her insurance company, but I know its a long process. My car is now fixed and I had to pay my deductible and such, but I am still bitter at how everything was handled. Is this common? My insurance company just sorta gave up.

[Edited 2013-10-30 10:29:12]

[Edited 2013-10-30 10:40:56]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Doesn't help much now, but you should've called the police. I know no one is bleeding out or anything, but it helps prevent situations like this. ALWAYS GET A POLICE REPORT!! Now it's he said she said. There's pretty much nothing you can do to prove it, that's what the police report would have determined. I'd keep fighting it but life is harder without that police report

Also, try and keep your vehicle where it was when it was hit. Sometimes you have to move it out of the way, but if you're able to keep it there, it helps a lot. My hit and run turned into something lesser (forgot what) because I moved the car (I didn't notice the damage since it was on the other side of the car. Basically, a hit and run makes my insurance pay for it all but what was written on the report had the deductible kick in. Luckily, USAA was nice and paid for it in full despite them being able to take a $1000 deductible from me (sorry if that's confusing, my terminology is lacking at the moment)

Other than that, just be more careful in parking lots



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1444 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Geico insurance is a joke- they spend all their money on shitty unfunny commercials. I would never in a million years get insured by them; they are worthless.

Having said that I'm not exactly sure what you think should be handled differently right now. An insurance company's job is to not pay out any money to anybody, so it's hardly surprising that if there's an inch of doubt Nationwide will refuse to pay up. It's then Geico's job to fight it out with them, and you say they are "going after them"- so where's the problem here?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineklm672 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

No problem. I am not asking what I should do now, clearly nothing. As for next time this happens, what steps I should've taken (eg "Always get a police report" from DeltaMD90)

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

First rule, you don't talk to the other party about whose fault it is or anything, apart from exchanging info! You take as many pictures as possible, preferably without moving the cars from the crash position. Contact the police so that they can come and take statements and keep a record of what happened. Also contact your insurance, sometimes they will send someone out to check what happened.

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

For a minor fenderbender - in only the smallest locations will a police officer come out for a no-injury accident. You should report the incident to the police, but there will be no police report.

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
I filed a claim through my insurance and it was determined "not at fault"

In the US, almost all accidents are determined to be 'no fault' of either party, unless there is a clear violation of traffic laws and a serious injury. My wife was stopped at a red light a few years ago - hit from the rear by a car that never slowed down and the driver did not get a ticket. She even contested it was her fault.

In that one we were lucky that her insurance decided to settle quickly to avoid us going to court.

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
They are "going after" her insurance company, but I know its a long process.

The insurance companies kind of have a handshake rule that unless it is a major accident - i.e. over $25,000 damages and medical - 50K for some companies - it is easier to just pay for their own policy holder's damages. It saves them a lot of administrative costs.

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
My insurance company just sorta gave up.

Remember that when it comes to policy renewal time. But don't expect a much different result in a similar accident for any other company.


User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10254 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2420 times:
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Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
I was backed into
Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
next thing I know I was backed into
Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
she backed right into me
Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
she backed into me

I'm confused. Did she back into you?  
Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
I know I should've taken it a step further and called the police, but no one was hurt.

It's not necessarily a bad idea to call the police, but I don't always do so. The times I've called the police are when the cars are blocking lanes of the road. I've never called for a simple rear-ending when our cars were moved off to the side.

Now, with that said, someone backing into you is a perfect storm for a tough case to make. Rear-endings are almost universally regarded as the driver-in-the-rear's fault (at least in the US). It can be difficult to prove that she backed into you, rather than you driving forward into her. In a situation like that, I might have called the police, just as extra insurance (no pun intended).

Be aware though that the insurance companies may be required to assign responsibility as determined by the police. I'm not sure about that though - it's been awhile since I discussed it with my insurance company.

Photos are always good to take - of both your car and the other driver's car. In my last accident, we also took photos of each other's license, for information's sake.

In general, I handle accidents in as relaxed a way as possible. I don't get pissed off, don't get upset at the other driver (at least, not so far). Just go through the required motions - exchange info, call the police if necessary, take photos, and get on with my day. I try and keep the talking about the accident to a minimum - I don't want to inadvertently accept responsibility, and I'm not all that interested in trying to get the other driver to admit responsibility at the scene. I understand that people get freaked out when accidents happen. I let the insurance companies handle all that, and so far I haven't had an issue.

Couple very different examples. I got into an accident awhile ago on my lunch break. The woman in the other car said something to the effect of "so what do we do now?" I said, "well, I'm going to call my insurance company - I suggest you do the same". She said "well, the light was yellow, so it's your fault". I said, "I'm going to call my insurance company", and left it at that. No point in arguing, or getting into a discussion of blame (for the record, the accident was determined to be my fault, though I'd personally put it at 50/50).

My last accident occurred when a guy rear-ended me when I was stopped at a red light. He was incredibly apologetic about it, and fully admitted it was his fault and he'd make sure my car was taken care of. This was at no prompting from me. He took my number so he could call me and make sure everything was in motion. I told him, "look man, I appreciate it, but you really don't have to call - the insurance companies will handle all this". But he was insistent, and he did in fact call a few days later.

I forget what point I was trying to make. I guess it's that accidents happen; people deal with them in different ways, and you can never be sure who you'll have to deal with in the other car. So I prefer not to get into it with the other driver, beyond making sure he/she is alright and exchanging info.

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
My car is now fixed and I had to pay my deductible and such, but I am still bitter at how everything was handled. Is this common? My insurance company just sorta gave up.

Common, probably. Be glad that your insurance company took your side, and didn't find you at fault.

I haven't had any experience with Geico, but I've had Progressive for years now, and they've always been quite good and efficient when I've gotten into accidents. And for the most part, I've agreed with their decisions regarding responsibility.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineklm672 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
Common, probably. Be glad that your insurance company took your side, and didn't find you at fault.

I am not sure if I mentioned...she backed into me!  


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
For a minor fenderbender - in only the smallest locations will a police officer come out for a no-injury accident. You should report the incident to the police, but there will be no police report.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
In the US, almost all accidents are determined to be 'no fault' of either party

Really? My experience with a few police departments suggests the opposite. Every department is different. I still recommend calling the police and getting a police report or trying to, can't hurt



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinekingairta From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2337 times:

Always call the police.

I have gieco and my wife had an accident about six months ago. Old guy failed to yeild and well both cars damaged. Geico was on the ball and my car was repaired with in the week and by the end of the month the other insurance paid for all medical bills and even my deductible. only had to make two phone calls. The first to report what happened and the second to give info for all the bills and Geico did all the legwork with Allstate (the old guys ins). I was very pleasure d with the service.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15811 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
My car is now fixed and I had to pay my deductible and such, but I am still bitter at how everything was handled. Is this common?

I had a similar situation a couple years ago. Dumb girl runs into me in a parking garage and security checked the tapes, found nothing, and didn't write a report.

I file a claim directly with her insurance and talked to them. They get back to me and say they'll pay 80%, so I told the adjuster where she could shove it, hung up, and called my insurance company. They took it from there and I got the car fixed under my policy and paid 20% of my deductible. A few months later after some wrangling my insurance finally managed to wring the money out of her insurance and I got a check for the 20% I had paid.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 2):

Geico insurance is a joke- they spend all their money on shitty unfunny commercials. I would never in a million years get insured by them; they are worthless.

I've heard the same from people in the industry.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
My wife was stopped at a red light a few years ago - hit from the rear by a car that never slowed down and the driver did not get a ticket. She even contested it was her fault.

Being cited and being at fault are not the same thing.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2216 times:

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
A few days went by and she sent in her pictures. I did a statement with her company and my company and it was determined by my company I was not at fault, but her company said it was my fault (they said there was "conflicting information"). Based on the pictures, it was determined that I was at fault. My insurance company seemed to simply shurg their shoulders and say "yeah, they're not Nationwide is not paying, sorry".

My experience is that parking lot accidents are usually No-Fault.

Generally because backing into each other is caused by negligence on both parties, and the law will have a hard time laying blame. I have Nationwide, and I will say this. Their reps will fight for you. You will have to fight for yourself with Geico. It should have been a no-fault, and if Geico didn't fight for you, then that is a pretty good reason to raise some hell with them.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6844 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2193 times:

This may not apply here but from what I understand auto insurance companies don't "go after each other", instead each company pays for their customers, and it evens out.

As for parking accidents with moving vehicles here it's always going to be 50-50 meaning you're screwed. Now if someone is hurt and the courts get involved, then who did what matters.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLittleFokker From United States of America, joined Sep 2013, 351 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2173 times:

The last two accidents I've been involved in I didn't call the police, in fact, I didn't even exchange insurance. We both got out, did a quick inspection after a very low speed impact and saw no damage to either vehicle, and the other party and I mutually consented to carry on as if nothing happened. The more recent one was most annoying - we were in a tight parking lot, I was waiting to turn left onto a busy road and she backed into me pulling out of her space, then had the gall to claim it was my fault, when I was in the proper position to wait for the time to turn. I just shrugged her off and carried on, not worth getting into a fight with someone like that.


"Toughest wind I ever played in....straight down!" - W. C. Fields
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4120 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2131 times:
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Always call the police. It can always be useful later.

My last accident was a fender-bender with my neighbor. I backed into her car and I ended up being held responsible by our insurance carrier (we both had AllState), which I found to be totally unacceptable.

I do admit that generally the vehicle driving into another vehicle is at fault, but in this particular case, I was coming out of my garage and she was parked in my driveway inches away from the garage door without my knowledge or permission. She even admitted liability on the spot.

It turned out we had the same insurance carrier, so things got murky. She says they wouldn't let her file unless she blamed me, my claim handler says AllState would never do that and if her report put me at fault, it was of her own free will.

AllState took the view I was at fault because I backed into her, completely ignoring the fact she was in my driveway even though, according to Texas law, her offense (trespassing) was worse than mine, although I don't think anyone will ever convince me AllState's decision had nothing to do with her repair being far cheaper than mine too.

I refused to accept AllState's decision but I wasn't keen on a lawsuit, so I used the police report to my advantage. I told my neighbor to drop her claim against me and pay for my repair or I would report her for trespassing. Initially the police wasn't too keen on my tactic because they thought the consequences for trespass were too high for a minor fender bender, but when I explained AllState's position, they couldn't understand it anymore than I did and went along with my approach.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
They are "going after" her insurance company, but I know its a long process. My car is now fixed and I had to pay my deductible and such, but I am still bitter at how everything was handled. Is this common? My insurance company just sorta gave up.

That is the good thing about insurance you don't need to deal with anything anymore. The insurance company and their attorneys deal with it. You car is fixed, you paid your deductible and you go one with everything like nothing happened.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):

For a minor fenderbender - in only the smallest locations will a police officer come out for a no-injury accident. You should report the incident to the police, but there will be no police report.

You need to check with the state you live in. In Florida if accident damage is suspected to being over $500, yes just $500 you have to call the police or you can be cited for leaving the scene of an accident. I was at a red light once and a car smashed into me. It was heavy traffic and my car bumped the car in front of me. That car saw there was no damage to his car and left. Even though there was no damage to his car because the damage to the other cars was obviously over $500 he legally should had stayed and the officer did give him a ticket for leaving he scene because we had his licence plate.

So unless all you do is touch bumpers and there is zero physical damage you should call the police. Let them decide if they want to come or not. Pictures of the car, tag and the other driver's information is always good too.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1970 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 15):
You need to check with the state you live in.

Actually around the Dallas area, and other big cities I've been to - you will get a ticket for not clearing the traffic lanes if your car is in the street and it can possibly be moved if you wait for the police to arrive.

I didn't say don't call the police. But for an accident such as the OP described, the police around here will just take your name, tell you to take pictures and call your insurance company.

There will be an entry on the police blotter, but no police report on the accident.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7670 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1952 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 6):
I forget what point I was trying to make.

I'd say you should be warning us all that you're driving, you're accident prone  
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
My last accident was a fender-bender with my neighbor. I backed into her car and I ended up being held responsible by our insurance carrier (we both had AllState), which I found to be totally unacceptable.

If you backed into a stationary vehicle it can't be anything other than your fault!


User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 2):
Geico insurance is a joke- they spend all their money on shitty unfunny commercials. I would never in a million years get insured by them; they are worthless.

I've only been in one accident in my life, I was rear-ended on the freeway by someone not paying attention as traffic was slowing down to a complete stop. I had and still have Geico insurance and they were wonderful to deal with. State Farm (the other drivers insurance) was a total pain and I finally got to the point where I wouldn't even speak directly with them and made them call Geico.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):

For a minor fenderbender - in only the smallest locations will a police officer come out for a no-injury accident. You should report the incident to the police, but there will be no police report.

I was going to mention the same thing. Where I live, the first thing the police will do when they show up is write both parties a ticket for blocking traffic and then tell you to exchange information and move along. In some situations (like inclement weather) the police will not even respond, the dispatcher will tell you to exchange information and get your cars off the road.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1942 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
ALWAYS GET A POLICE REPORT!!

   Best advice! If you have to prove something at least you will have a document in your hand to show.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 10254 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1941 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
I'd say you should be warning us all that you're driving, you're accident prone

Seriously! Most of them haven't been my fault (I've gotten rear-ended a bunch), but yeah, sometimes I wonder if I should just stop driving.



How can I be an admiral without my cap??!
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1936 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
Actually around the Dallas area, and other big cities I've been to - you will get a ticket for not clearing the traffic lanes if your car is in the street and it can possibly be moved if you wait for the police to arrive.

Same here. I never said don't move the cars. What you have to do is take pictures of the cars how they crashed but after the pictures are taken if the cars can be moved and no one is hurt you get the cars out of the street.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):

I didn't say don't call the police. But for an accident such as the OP described, the police around here will just take your name, tell you to take pictures and call your insurance company.

Ok, and that is why I said check with your state laws. Here in Florida unless it is a very very minor accident less than $500 in damage you call the police, they come and do a full report. Every state is different. That is why people should be familiar with basic state laws like this. I does not matter if I am in the middle of nowhere or right by MIA where I had one accident before, the police come from a small agency to one of the largest in the country. It might take 30-40mins but they have to come. In Florida. Every state is different.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

It's advisable to take pictures and not move the cars but just use common sense. The police prefer (and will order you) to move the accident out of traffic, but if you're not in traffic, by all means stay where you are


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7670 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1896 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
I've gotten rear-ended a bunch

I had one car that was rear-ended twice, both times outside the same panel beaters, the second time happened after i pulled out from the panel beaters when I collected the car from the first accident. Damage was identical, bumper, tail lights and hatch. That car was cursed.


User currently offlineiMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6327 posts, RR: 33
Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
My insurance company just sorta gave up.

Why do you care if they recovered their money? Di they pay to have your car fixed? It appears they did everything you could want.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 2):
Geico insurance is a joke- they spend all their money on shitty unfunny commercials. I would never in a million years get insured by them; they are worthless.

They have treated me well for years.

As to what to do differently in the future you handled it perfectly.



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12263 posts, RR: 35
Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1767 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):

My last accident was a fender-bender with my neighbor. I backed into her car and I ended up being held responsible by our insurance carrier (we both had AllState), which I found to be totally unacceptable.

I do admit that generally the vehicle driving into another vehicle is at fault, but in this particular case, I was coming out of my garage and she was parked in my driveway inches away from the garage door without my knowledge or permission. She even admitted liability on the spot.
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 14):
AllState took the view I was at fault because I backed into her, completely ignoring the fact she was in my driveway even though, according to Texas law, her offense (trespassing) was worse than mine, although I don't think anyone will ever convince me AllState's decision had nothing to do with her repair being far cheaper than mine too.

Well...it was your fault. Regardless of her parking where she shouldn't be, you still didn't look behind you prior to backing up..

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
If you backed into a stationary vehicle it can't be anything other than your fault!

This.



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineNav20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 26, posted (1 year 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1705 times:

Quoting klm672 (Thread starter):
I was pulling into a parking lot during my lunch time and next thing I know I was backed into. I didn't see her. She must've not seen me, either and simply backed up.

klm672, as far as I can tell, if you'd kept a good lookout, seen her, and hooted, the accident wouldn't have happened?

Surely that makes it fifty-fifty rather than her fault alone?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4120 posts, RR: 2
Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1681 times:
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Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 25):
Well...it was your fault. Regardless of her parking where she shouldn't be, you still didn't look behind you prior to backing up.

I know I didn't look behind me, and I am partially responsible for that, but I have a reasonable expectation that my driveway will be free of unauthorized vehicle as well, especially one parked inches from my garage door. I would have accepted a split fault outcome, but once I was deemed entirely responsible, I pushed back, and since the police agreed she was more at fault than I was and I ought not to be responsible for vehicles left in my driveway without my permission or knowledge, I pushed back as hard as AllState pushed me.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2456 posts, RR: 14
Reply 28, posted (1 year 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

I don't know if this rule is also applicable in the U.S. and if it matters in this question - but as a novice driver (taking driving lessons right now), I know that every vehicle has the right of way against somebody who is backing up.

If somebody backs up and collides... dang, not my fault. But I could still be held partially accountable for driving in a reckless manner (e.g. driving too fast in a parking lot).


Although calling the police is preferable, we have the European Road Accident Form which can be filled out by both drivers. Whatever happened is indicated by checking boxes on that form (for example "vehicle A did back up"), and one can indicate which parts of the cars were damaged, but AFAIK the form that is signed by both adversaries does not contain any admission of guilt.

Never admit any guilt at the place of accident is one big and bold rule.


David

[Edited 2013-11-04 04:04:06]

[Edited 2013-11-04 04:04:36]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineklm672 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2485 posts, RR: 3
Reply 29, posted (1 year 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 28):
I don't know if this rule is also applicable in the U.S. and if it matters in this question - but as a novice driver (taking driving lessons right now), I know that every vehicle has the right of way against somebody who is backing up.

Yes, it is the same here in the US....which is why I was so confused as to why I was at fault.


User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 30, posted (1 year 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 1620 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 27):
I know I didn't look behind me, and I am partially responsible for that, but I have a reasonable expectation that my driveway will be free of unauthorized vehicle as well, especially one parked inches from my garage door.

Do you think you have a reasonable expectation that your driveway should be free of an unauthorized child or person?



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 31, posted (1 year 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 27):
I know I didn't look behind me, and I am partially responsible for that, but I have a reasonable expectation that my driveway will be free of unauthorized vehicle as well, especially one parked inches from my garage door. I would have accepted a split fault outcome, but once I was deemed entirely responsible, I pushed back, and since the police agreed she was more at fault than I was and I ought not to be responsible for vehicles left in my driveway without my permission or knowledge, I pushed back as hard as AllState pushed me.

I'm going to disagree with you. I see the accident as 100% your fault, sorry. The neighbor having the car in your driveway is a separate incident and you'd probably be able to pursue legal action on that front, including going to court and suing for the amount to pay the insurance bill, but I don't see the two infractions as fused together



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12263 posts, RR: 35
Reply 32, posted (1 year 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1601 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
I'm going to disagree with you. I see the accident as 100% your fault, sorry. The neighbor having the car in your driveway is a separate incident and you'd probably be able to pursue legal action on that front, including going to court and suing for the amount to pay the insurance bill, but I don't see the two infractions as fused together

I agree. If I got called about a car in somebody's driveway, I would not tow it. It's private property, and you are more than welcome to call a tow truck to have it removed, but I wouldn't be able to. There is no crime committed, and you can not say trespassing, unless your neighbor has been legally trespassed from your property, or you have posted no trespassing signs (YMMV, each location is different)



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4120 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1535 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
The neighbor having the car in your driveway is a separate incident

Not convinced evidently. If I remember my college law well enough (that sets us back years), I think it falls within the chain of causation and foreseeability test.

Quoting flymia (Reply 30):
Do you think you have a reasonable expectation that your driveway should be free of an unauthorized child or person?

All I have to do is claim I felt threatened by them and I can shoot them! Welcome to Texas!
Not sure I can run over them though, interesting question...

Seriously, the answer is yes, actually. That doesn't mean it's "anything goes" if this expectation isn't met, but it is a matter of context. If a child is sitting right outside your garage door and is too short to be seen from the rearview mirror, you won't be charged for running over him because everything you could have reasonably be expected to do would not have prevented the accident. If he is 10 feet down the driveway, it's entirely your fault and you deserve to be charged.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineNav20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1505 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 27):
I know I didn't look behind me, and I am partially responsible for that, but I have a reasonable expectation that my driveway will be free of unauthorized vehicle as well, especially one parked inches from my garage door

Sorry, blueflyer, can't work that bit out? Was the garage door already open - or did you have to open it? Either way, surely, if her car was so close, you'd have seen it - either when you were opening the door, or as you were getting into your own car?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 35, posted (1 year 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1500 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 33):
Not convinced evidently. If I remember my college law well enough (that sets us back years), I think it falls within the chain of causation and foreseeability test.

I don't see any causation here. When you are driving, you are in control of your car. You are responsible for driving on a clear path. You did not adequately clear behind you. The fact that a car was there when it shouldn't have been is irrelevant

I'm sure there is a way for compensation but legally speaking, it sounds like you are in the wrong (even if your neighbor was in the wrong as well)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 33):
If I remember my college law well enough (that sets us back years), I think it falls within the chain of causation and foreseeability test

I see where you are coming from, but I think you are conflating two separate legal issues questions.

I'm sorry to say it, but from the facts as you have described them I cannot see how you were not negligent in the circumstances. I understand that you've probably backed out of your garage everyday for years (and I would quite probably not bother checking either in the circumstances) but from an objective legal standard you would almost certainly have seen the car had you glanced in your rear view mirror. Making out that you were negligent would be pretty easy had it gone to court.

Causation and forseeability relate to the measure of damages to be awarded rather than the factual determination of whether one party was negligent.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 37, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 36):
Making out that you were negligent would be pretty easy had it gone to court. Causation and forseeability relate to the measure of damages to be awarded rather than the factual determination of whether one party was negligent.

It could depend on the state. Very few states still follow Contributory negligence where even if the court or jury finds the other party to be just 1% of fault the party suing has no case. When discussing damages, and the rule most states follow is comparative negligence. So in blueflyer's situation comparative negligence could be used to reduce the damages sought after if the jury or court believe he was not 100% at fault. Which I that case I think he has a decent argument.
When it comes to insurance or traffic citations its a different story.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 33):
If a child is sitting right outside your garage door and is too short to be seen from the rearview mirror, you won't be charged for running over him because everything you could have reasonably be expected to do would not have prevented the accident.

Agreed also.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 33):
If he is 10 feet down the driveway, it's entirely your fault and you deserve to be charged.

Agreed.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5906 posts, RR: 5
Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1463 times:

Quoting flymia (Reply 37):
Very few states still follow Contributory negligence where even if the court or jury finds the other party to be just 1% of fault the party suing has no case
Quoting flymia (Reply 37):
So in blueflyer's situation comparative negligence could be used to reduce the damages sought after if the jury or court believe he was not 100% at fault. Which I that case I think he has a decent argument.

OK, you confused me for a second, but I understand what you're saying. I don't know US law (and I understand that it varies between states), but the general principles are largely uniform across Common Law jurisdictions. What you describe as "comparative negligence" we refer to "contributory negligence", and the concept that contributory negligence can result in no case doesn't exist here (thank God!)

I fully agree that there is a good case for comparative negligence. I was mostly intending to point out that the "chain of causation" and "reasonable forseeabilty" don't actually apply to that factual determination.

To take an absurd example, had he backed into the car, scratched the fender, and then the two weeks later the engine clonked out, then that would not have been a "reasonably foreseeable" result of the accident, and good luck to any lawyer trying to make out that the engine clonking was the endpoint of the "chain of causation" starting with the feder-bender. That's where those principles come into play, in order to prevent the suing party from claiming utterly absurd and illogical damages.

Of course there is also the counter claim of trespass, and this is where I think the individual got slightly confused in conflating them into one issue rather than recognising that they are two separate (and valid) claims. Still, it worked for him so that's what matters I guess  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently onlineairtechy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Several years ago, while stopped, I was rear ended by a kid (who worked at a car dealership) who was test driving a customers car. I had insurance, the kid had personal insurance, the customer had insurance, and the dealership had insurance......all different insurance companies. The damage to my car was about 1000 bucks and my insurance covered the repair less the deductible...250 bucks... with the understanding that they would "recover" it from one of the other companies. After six months of finger pointing by the companies I gave up ever seeing the 250 as it wasn't worth the aggravation.

Jim


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