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Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad  
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2601 posts, RR: 22
Posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1361 times:
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Wow. This sounds pretty racist to me. Sounds like they need to be talking about inclusiveness and not just isolating one group of people over another.

Here's the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...hite-males-have-unfair-advantages/

And again, where is the "Transparency"? Pentagon officials won't talk? Really? Who do they work for?

Oh well, if this is nothing but a lie, I'm sure the Administration will do everything it can to deny it.
If we don't hear a word I'll take that as an admission of guilt.  Wink

[Edited 2013-10-31 15:05:58]


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21631 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

Do we have a source for this other than an opinion piece that links to a document that gives you a time-out error when you try to load it?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19706 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

Reads like a divisive, inflammatory piece that has very selectively chosen quotes that will most outrage the target audience.

User currently offlinesccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5520 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1283 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Reads like a divisive, inflammatory piece that has very selectively chosen quotes that will most outrage the target audience.

It does indeed - fairly strong stuff; is the linked Training Manual not legitimate?



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1281 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

Do we have a source for this other than an opinion piece that links to a document that gives you a time-out error when you try to load it?

It's right here, straight out of the official Ft Knox training site.

http://www.knox.army.mil/Garrison/su...es/eoo/docs/EORC_Student_Guide.pdf

And holy crap, I just scanned through it. It is FILLED with pure propaganda, repeated ad nauseum. Military vets here will certainly be shocked at what our military has become.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1268 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Reads like a divisive, inflammatory piece that has very selectively chosen quotes that will most outrage the target audience.

I agree. I'm just gonna go on a whim and say what I think the situation is:

It's a fact that white males hold more leadership positions than minorities or females. I'm not just comparing it to the general population, I'm also comparing it to the actual demographics within the military. These are facts.

Why is the situation like this, though? It could very well be that, through socialization that white males tend to do better (and racism and sexism has nothing to do with it.) Another possibility is that the military is full of racism and sexism. What do I think the answer is? Both, of course. Socialization controls a huge part of all of our lives and how we act and it's not the military's fault that white males did better outside of the military. In the military, however, there may still be pockets of overt racism and sexism but what I think they are trying to highlight are the lone wolf closet racists/sexists and the unintentional racism and sexism. CPT Jones might be the most unracist/unsexist guy there is, consciously, but perhaps he subconsciously treats white males better than other soldiers.

Nothing controversial about that, right? I don't think they are talking about "keeping the white man down" and promoting black females all over the place. If a white male is doing better than a black female, the commander should be able to promote the white male without consequence. If he keeps overlooking the black female who works hard and promotes mediocre white guys, all it might take is just a bit of awareness for the commander to see the mistake he/she is making. Maybe the commander is a racist/sexist and fellow officers can spot this and correct the situation

Let me know when they start promoting less capable people just to get demographics up

Also, the Christian aspect is surprising to me. The military is still very religious with prayers at most major ceremonies and all. I'm seeing more and more atheist service members but I've never seen anyone get discriminated against, but I've heard of it happening. Cannot really comment from experience, but obviously, if there is discrimination going on I don't see how we can twist it into a huge injustice against Christians or something.

And homosexuality... before DADT was repealed I saw major opposition, but afterwards, the opinion on gay service members greatly improved. I hardly see any opposition to homosexuality, it seems to mostly come out (vocally) from higher ranks (but not too high of ranks) but homophobia still exists. Again, if the Pentagon wants to get rid of homophobia, is that an attack on straight people?


EDIT: I'll have to read the actual source and then see what I think about it. Have a feeling it's not going to be earth-shattering...

[Edited 2013-10-31 16:09:55]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8272 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (10 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1208 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
It could very well be that, through socialization that white males tend to do better

I was in the Navy in the late 60's and, in terms of officers, I served on two very white ships. Not one officer of color. (I would note that years later the DDG I was on visited Perth where we were living and the CO was Black. The crew was also very supportive of this man, which was nice to see.)

In terms of senior officers during my service you need to look back to who was going to Annapolis 20 - 25 year before. That was where you had Commanders & Captains moving up the ladder to Admiral. They went to their military academies at a time before Truman integrated the military.

Same with women. How many would have gone to the service academies in the late 40s?

Things are far different these days, but it still takes 20 years to get 20 years experience.

Look at women and people of color these days and you need to look at when they started their military education. Do that and you can judge if they are being promoted at an expected level.

Gays in the military is a totally different situation because their preferences were hidden until recently. But I believe that a lot of gas have been promoted based on their performance over the years because they were successful at hiding their orientation.

At the enlisted level there was a simple, computer based grading system to get to E-4 and above. Standard tests were a significant part of that grading, which is pretty color blind.

I can also remember comfortable interaction between sailors without regards to color.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Another possibility is that the military is full of racism and sexism.

This country is full of racism and sexism, especially in the traditional South. The military is going to reflect what ever the problems are. Fortunately there has been some improvements in the military. I have been very surprised at the number of Naval Commanders who have been relieved over the past few years. Sexism has been a major cause for those being fired. Pretty shocking when you have a Commanding Officer of a warship that is cable of carrying nuclear weapons.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1146 times:

I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB? I keep seeing these "stories" coming out and either covertly or overtly blaming Obama. This has been going on for decades and there was no outrage. Until now. We get it. The right hates Obama. The right will do literally ANYTHING to oust him. Any little nugget they can find to pounce on to bring Obama out of the White House. All because the American people decided to re-elect him. All because the American people took away some of their seats in the House. Can you imagine the faux outrage in 2014 when they lose the majority in the House?


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (10 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1138 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB? I keep seeing these "stories" coming out and either covertly or overtly blaming Obama.

    Why don't we just stop doing everything until Obama gets out of office? Seriously, how come every tiny thing that just so happens to come out under Obama is some giant conspiracy to blame him? It's really annoying.

I'm surprised you didn't take the positive approach: maybe the President is pressuring the Pentagon to create a more fair and equal military? Please, anything other than these tin foil conspiracies of covering up everything under Bush and releasing it right as Obama takes office!!!!...... plus 4 years. Come on. Bad stuff happens every day. Events spanning years have to come out during some administration. Ever occur that this didn't come out under Bush because it wasn't ready to come out? The military hasn't created some conspiracy to dump a bunch of problems on a Democrat and not a Republican.

Ugh, I'll stop now. Seriously, calm down, not everything is a coordinated attack!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1112 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):

I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB? I keep seeing these "stories" coming out and either covertly or overtly blaming Obama. This has been going on for decades and there was no outrage. Until now. We get it. The right hates Obama.

Maybe because such things probably would not happen under GWB? This is hardly the first time we've heard noises about this administration trying to make the military politically correct.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8541 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1092 times:

Nothing new. The federal government has very preferential standards in hiring and procurement based on gender and race. Some of it is required by law. There is nothing hidden or confusing about that.

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (10 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1093 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Maybe because such things probably would not happen under GWB?

wow. just... wow.

You really believe that? Really?

wow. just.. wow.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1089 times:

Just a bunch of jibberish IMO. Some people make the military sound like a racist and social club for the white man and it's not. Maybe in the south things are different but I can assure you that unless you are a minority with a clean history or woman you're not getting promoted above E-7 easily or accepted to officer programs unless you're parents are somebody.

There's been such a focus on weeding out racism, sexism, harassment out of the military since the tailhook scandal of the 90's. You have to pretty much walk on egg shells around fellow GI's so you won't be accused of any EO crimes or violations which can hurt or end you're military career.

The article is propaganda.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1067 times:

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 12):
The article is propaganda.

It accurately portrays the training document. Did you bother to read it?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
You really believe that? Really?

He was hardly a conservative but neither was he a rabid liberal, of the type who clearly wrote (or had controlling input on) the training document.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1059 times:

The reporting is confusing and inflammatory I'd have to read more or see more evidence of this.

[Edited 2013-10-31 21:58:54]

User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1048 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
the training document.

Two questions:

1. How long have you served in the military?
B. When was this guide written and updated?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 16, posted (10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1040 times:

Truly disgusting to read. Hard to believe that this is sanctioned by our own government. What kind of social experiment are they trying to pull off?
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.






Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1033 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.

Heavens to merkitroid! Our military looking like the people the people in America! Oh, the shame of it all! There are Blacks in America! There are Natives in America! There are Latinos in America! We can't have that. Only Whites. Whites only in America! /sarcasm



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8153 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1016 times:

If true, the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate. This is not the way to foment a workplace in which all participants are treating each other as equals. Military training should emphasize meritocracy and measure ability by not only performance but personal integrity.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.

At least that would scare the shit out of the terrorists.



If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1010 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
At least that would scare the shit out of the terrorists.

And tea people.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate.

THANK YOU! Democrats want to get rid of all references to gender and race. But, the tea people think that just encourages them; makes them feel "entitled" to services like education. And, how dare they think they should feel entitled to a job or anything! How dare minorities (or any American, for that matter) feel they are entitled to an education! Shame on them for thinking they can pull themselves up by their boot straps! They need to inherit billions of dollars like the "regular" Americans and not be given any boot straps!



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4001 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 999 times:
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The predominantly white males of Fox News have an issue with an army that wants to make sure the predominance of white males among its upper ranks doesn't keep it from raising to the top talented people who do not belong to that group. I wonder why...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If true, the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate.

Why? Do you disagree that overall, white men have a socio-economic advantage over all other groups? Is it wrong to call others to this situation?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB?

I can't say whether there have been previous versions, but the particular training manual Fox refers to is dated April 2012.

[Edited 2013-10-31 23:26:50]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (10 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 994 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):

That's a Army training manual not a Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps document for starters. I have no idea how the Army conducts its training. I don't know if this is how they train perspective facilitators or strictly Army instructors. I attended a mini one day course to administer command climate surveys to see if there were organization problems dealing with racism, harassment, special or unfair treatment, fraternization etc...

The course never taught or implied to look down on minority and make him/her fell better or using the white man club etc... In fact the instructors that taught us the class were all minorities not one Caucasian. They should've known if this kind of language existed as they read the same course syllabus over and over to numerous classes.

I can tell you as a 20 yr navy veteran I never looked down on anyone or considered myself privileged. CO's, officers and other leaders do get relieved for credible ethics, discrimination violations. While racism exists it's much worse in regular society.

The only time I've truly experienced racism in the military was generally service members from the south. Having a few in laws from South Carolina it's a different culture than the rest of the US. Not saying that all southern people are racists but I digress...

The alleged source Faux news paraphrased most of the info so was he nitpicking or what?

Anyways I have no opinion yet well have too see what happens, if anything the manual will need to be rewritten and the DEOMI officer who gave the manual to the press... Chances are he/she will be found out.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39885 posts, RR: 74
Reply 22, posted (10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 982 times:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If true, the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate. This is not the way to foment a workplace in which all participants are treating each other as equals. Military training should emphasize meritocracy and measure ability by not only performance but personal integrity.

  
Exactly. I've always thought the military was merit based. When did these rules go in place? How is it that Colon Powell and Allan West managed to rise through the ranks?
When it comes to fighting our enemies, I don't care what race, gender or sexual orientation they are. Just as long as they're capable of doing the job is all that should matter.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMike89406 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1467 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 972 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

That's the thing first and foremost we are there to do our job that's the single goal. The last thing leadership wants to deal with is someone's personal problems affecting work.

It doesn't matter if you like or hate certain people you do you're job. No system is perfect and there are times leadership gets involved if it affects production. Anyways I can't speak for every branch of military and I know some work centers are different but the goal is the same. Sometimes that has a lot to do with you're supervisor(s).

I've worked for a few bad managers but I've had great ones as well. I can only speak from my own experience though.

Anyways this report is early so who knows. Maybe it's an over zealous writer or could be credible. I don't agree that lumping in the military as whole is accurate just yet. I've never felt that I've been given special treatment because I'm white, maybe in the early 90's and before something like this might hold water. From my experience a lot of minorities and women are being promoted before I was given a chance.

If anything is inappropriate the person(s) who wrote the manual should've been rewritten.

[Edited 2013-11-01 01:08:18]

User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2601 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (10 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 912 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
At least that would scare the shit out of the terrorists.

      

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 21):
Not saying that all southern people are racists

Well, that is the implication isn't it? Twice.  
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 23):
It doesn't matter if you like or hate certain people you do you're job

Absolutely. Everybody has some kind of prejudices. I don't care how hard they deny it. Life just does it to you.
Nonetheless, you just get you're job done.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 23):
If anything is inappropriate the person(s) who wrote the manual should've been rewritten.

Absolutely. Now that there has been some attention brought to it (thanks to Fox) maybe something will be done about it. Maybe.  



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
25 KiwiRob : How many of these are in the armed forces. Someone in poor heath should choose a different profession.
26 seb146 : Maybe someone should check that out before outrage begins. Some time in the 1800s, IIRC. Where was the outrage then? Where was the outrage in WWI? Wh
27 Maverick623 : Just a data point, but the PBS documentary "Carrier", filmed on the Nimitz in 2005 and released in 2008, put it in a rather interesting light. While
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