PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5459 times:
This post is intended primarily for people from those European (and other) countries where movies and TV series are dubbed ("synchronisiert" in German) into the local language. Of course, others may participate as well.
What do you think of this practice? I personally can't see how anyone could stand it. And I'm not the only one who feels this way; John Ardagh, the widely-respected observer of modern Europe calls dubbing "barbarism" and a cultural "travesty."
What is wrong with subtitles? Many smaller European countries (the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Slovenia, Finland, Croatia, Portugal, etc.) have always subtitled foreign movies. Of course, it was the small size of these media markets that made dubbing uneconomical, but people here have never missed it. Subtitles enable them to both understand the movie and to watch it in its original form. Can one ask for anything better?
Some proponents of dubbing argue that subtitles are distracting. Excuse me, and having voice actors replace the original dialog isn't? Again, people in countries where there is no dubbing don't mind the subtitles. Being SUB-titles, they are easy enough to ignore if you don't need them. If you do need them, you can easily read them without missing any of the on-screen action.
To me, dubbing movies is just as bad as colorizing black-and-white ones. When Ted Turner announced his plans to colorize some classic films, people in the film industry rightfully went nuts. However, I happen to believe that dubbing is equally questionable; after all, by replacing the actors' voices, dubbing interferes with the artistic vision of the film's authors. Unfortunately, the film industry is so concerned about the bottom line that it does not dare to prohibit the practice, even for "art" films.
Some may argue that most people in these countries want their movies to be dubbed, so the market should pander to them. But why then do public broadcasting institutions, such as ORF, France 2, ZDF, TVE, RAI, etc. show dubbed movies and series? Shouldn't PUBLIC broadcasters attempt to ELEVATE public taste rather than pander to it?
The only exception should be movies aimed at young children. Since the little ones can't read, dubbing makes perfect sense in this case.
But since the vast majority of European adults can read, why on earth should this policy go on?
I'm looking forward to your comments! If you support dubbing, I'd like to know why!
Bizjets From France, joined Jun 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5387 times:
I find dubbed movies extremely annoying. The movement of peoples discrepency between facial movements and what is being said is very distracting.
I like subtitles. As you said, it keeps the film in original form and (as a plus for me) the film can be watched at a very low volume so as not to disturb others.
Racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4691 posts, RR: 23 Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5355 times:
I prefer a well-dubbed film over a subtitled one. Subtitles somehow appear cheap to me, I hate them. Also you don't have to look at the screen to follow the movie with a dubbed movie, however you'll probably miss something important with subtitles (if you don't understand English).
I would either watch the movie as original without subtitles, or dubbed.
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5307 times:
Racko wrote:
>>"Also you don't have to look at the screen to follow the movie with a dubbed movie, however you'll probably miss something important with subtitles (if you don't understand English)."
I've seen many European movies with English or Slovenian subtitles and I've always been able to follow the action on-screen AND read the subtitles at the same time. In fact, I don't recall ever missing anything important. It may take a while for people to get used to subtitles, but I'm sure that, after a while, it wouldn't be a big problem for them. After all, it's not a problem for many Europeans who live in small countries.
Scorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 4934 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5263 times:
I can't understand why anybody would want to watch a dubbed tv-programme! It has got to be the most annoying thing ever! The moment they start this practice here in Belgium I'm moving! Or I'll just stop watching tv. Oh, and I agree it's cultural rape to me.
Hepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5269 times:
Oh no, you've hit on my pet peeve! Oh, where shall I start! I HATE dubbed movies with a passion. I can't stand them. They're not genuine, the emotions you feel are not real, the energy of the characters are fake, artificial, it's like someone standing in front of you and giving you a bare faced lie. It's detestable, fake, and I can't understand why on earth anyone would put up with such a system.
For this reason alone I don't watch German language TV, I prefer to align my dish to the British satellites. Whenever I chance upon ProSieben, for example, and see some American comedy, DUBBED, it makes my blood curddle. The dubbed voices sound nothing like their characters should, they're not in synch, and yet you have people believing this is normal and laughing their heads off at fakely delivered jokes.
I went to see Vanilla Sky a while ago, but it took some guts as I was invited to a regular movie theater where everything would be dubbed in German. Tom Cruise had this annoying reedy, high voice that just bugged the hell out of me during the entire movie (everyone else, for their part, was having a ball, completely convinced that that was similar to Tommy's voice). Then the poor dub artist tried his best to pass himself off as smooth as Tom Cruise, but at best it made him sound pompous and insecure.
I'm sorry, but I'll forever like the Scandinavians who watch everything in its original language. No wonder they speak better English than Americans and Brits put together. You only have to compare experiences in Scandinavia with that of the German speaking countries to see the positive effects original language programming has had on society. In Scandinavia, almost everyone understands and speaks perfect English, even though the older folks might not be able to read or write it, and it's all because they're so used to hearing it. You can't say the same about Vienna or even big cities in Germany.
Staffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5264 times:
This is one big reason I rarely watch TV in Belgium, all the french channels dub the movies, it sucks!
Unfortunately we don't get the flemmish undubbed channels here, since Belgium is kind of...split up in two..
Subtitled movies improves people's english tenfold.
Subtitles are good - Dubbing isn't
I remember the first time I saw Miami Vice in french, haha... that was hilarious!
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5261 times:
Hepkat wrote:
>>"I'm sorry, but I'll forever like the Scandinavians who watch everything in its original language."
What about Slovenia, Hepkat? It's just a few hours south of Vienna, and every single movie / TV series here is in its original language (except a few kids's shows). And since the media market here is so small, a large number of movies and TV shows are imported from the States (even more than in many other European countries). Slovenia's TV stations air almost every important American show... from Seinfeld to the Sopranos and even, unfortuantely, Jerry Springer.
If you hate dubbing, maybe you should consider a vacation here!
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5254 times:
And let's not forget the Russian/Polish style of dubbing where a male announcer, speaking in monotone, reads all the dialog. So you may see a distressed woman screaming "Help me!," but you'll hear a emotionless man calmly reading the translation. It sounds like someone reading subtitles.
Mika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2771 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5255 times:
I prefer subtitles or no subtitles before a dubbed movie. One thing that is more annoying than dubbing is if the subtitles are not in synch with what's actually happening and being said in the movie. I just can't lift my eyes of the subtitles even though there's a 2-3min lag and i end up switching channel because i understand absolutely nothing about the show or movie. Good thing you can switch off the subtitles on at least the digital broadcasts in a situation like that.
I'll have to agree with hepkat to an extent and say that tv and movies affect your english skills greatly. I myself have since i spoke my first words been watching english and american movies like crazy. My favourite movie when i was a youngster was The Cannonball run with burt reynolds, i just kept watching it over and over and over again and trying to copy some of Burt's line's. Today i can say that i talk english as good as swedish (which is not my mother tounge but it's the language i speak all the time. Finnish is my mother tounge but i'm born and raised in sweden). There's even words that i cannot longer remember in swedish so i'll have to say them in english. And when i think to myself i almost always think in english. And just the other day i was watching "The making of Tomb raider" on my Tomb Raider DVD and after like 5 minutes i noticed that the subtitles was in english. Kinda funny.
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5253 times:
Here is another account of the Russian way of dubbing movies, from Simon Bone's "Life after Tyranny":
"These foreign films were translated into Russian by means of a lektor. Used throughout Eastern Europe, a lektor is a single person, almost always a man, who narrates the entire film. It’s cheaper than proper dubbing, or even subtitles. (Sometimes the newsreader cadence of the lektor sounds ridiculously out of place. I once watched a cheesy horror film lektored into Polish, during which a mad slasher pursued a lingerie-clad woman down a dim corridor to her gory doom. No explanation was needed, but the lektor cheerfully rendered the dialog: “No. No. Help. No. Help me. No. Stop. No. Don’t do it. Please. No. Help. No. No."
Marcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1673 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5233 times:
From my personal experience I hate dubbed movies.......since I live on the border of Mexico with the US I'm able to see TV stations from both countries, allmost all the foreing movies in Mexican TV channels are dubbed, and the same goes for all sit coms and variety programs.......the problem is that not to many people dub these programs and movies....so you can see a movie and the voice of the bad guy is the same voice of the narrator on another channel, the voice of the leading man on a third channel and the voice of HOMER SIMPSON later that day!
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19915 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5228 times:
In most cases, the dubbed versions don´t come close to the original. And I´m pretty happy with AFN as an original english TV programming and movie source and with occasional dual-language transmission by the public TV stations.
There are exceptions, though, where the dubbed versions were better than the original, since the dubbing voice actors actually had better and more poignant delivery than the original actors.
And, of course, subtitles are massively reduced. In many cases, half of the dialogue goes missing.
Hepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5241 times:
PHX, I haven't been to Slovenia yet, but one day very soon I'll make it there.
I remember flipping through my sat receiver (I have over 500 channels, 475 of which are Arabic, 1 or 2 French, a Dutch one thrown in for good measure which at first I mistook for some bizarre German dialect, and the rest German and English) until I came accross this really wierd program. It was a black and white film about a man and woman having an affair on a cruise ship. They were both in bed speaking affectionately to each other, but all you heard was some annoying guy in the foreground reading the script in some Slavic language. I had no idea what was going on, I thought it was a type of Saturday Night Live or something. But the longer I watched, the more I realized that this was for real! In the background you could faintly hear the original English, but in the foreground you had this guy with the most boring voice, like a lecturing professor, completely emotionless, just reading the translation. That was bizarre!
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5224 times:
Klaus wrote:
>>"And, of course, subtitles are massively reduced. In many cases, half of the dialogue goes missing."
In Slovenia, subtitles tend to be fairly true to the original (or just slightly reduced). But then again, most Slovenes are used to reading subtitles, so they can flash on and off very rapidly. In countries where subtitles are rare, I would imagine that you would have to cut out a lot more, since people aren't used to reading the text so quickly.
Hepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 3 Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5219 times:
I forgot to mention my biggest gripe - The Simpsons in German! Oh boy! This has got to be the biggest farce I've ever seen. Homer's name is Humer, and he sounds way too intelligent. Marge sounds like, well, I don't know what she sounds like. Smithers doesn't have his annoying nasal voice. Bart and Lisa's voices pass, only because their so young and their voices so high that anyone could do a good job. Over the years I've just bought the series on tape and DVD, but on a whole, I avoid the Simpsons here like poison.
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5215 times:
Hepkat wrote:
>>"PHX, I haven't been to Slovenia yet, but one day very soon I'll make it there."
Please do! I think you'll like it here.
Hepkat wrote:
>>"It was a black and white film about a man and woman having an affair on a cruise ship. They were both in bed speaking affectionately to each other, but all you heard was some annoying guy in the foreground reading the script in some Slavic language. I had no idea what was going on, I thought it was a type of Saturday Night Live or something. But the longer I watched, the more I realized that this was for real! In the background you could faintly hear the original English, but in the foreground you had this guy with the most boring voice, like a lecturing professor, completely emotionless, just reading the translation. That was bizarre!"
That was a "lektor" all right! However, I don't know what country that may have been from... I believe all Slavic countries, except those that were once part of Yugoslavia (such as Slovenia), used "lektors." I'm not sure if they all still do...
Cba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4530 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5211 times:
I despise dubbed films. When I saw Brotherhood of the Wolf, I was very happy that it was subtitled and not dubbed. Subtitles all the way. Many times, actors are also picked for their manner of speech, tone, etc. Dubbing the film takes all of that away. For example, I once saw an episode of the Simpsons dubbed in French. Homer sounded just awful. However, the original Homer sounds like he acts. It's just not the same without the specific voices.
Lehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5206 times:
Well, I remember watching, though disappointed, Jurassic Park in Hindi -- bad enough I didn't know the language -- it was dubbed. Believe me I was thrown off, nobody laughed at Malcolm's comment, "Now that is one big pile of $hit."
"What is wrong with subtitles?"
I guess it comes down to your senses rather than your issue of cultural barbarism. How many things can you do at once, or to reiterate, can you watch some scenery in a car while reading a book and expect to remember then both? Yes we are all humans who are taught that, to hear and understand what people say while you see them, but what about someone who does not know the language? They cannot just learn the language, that takes too long and the movie industry wants to make the most money they can NOW, not later, so they dub it. (The industry wants the cheapest solution to give them the most profit.) That way your attention is less on the words at the bottom, where you have to read and not pay attention to the picture, and more on the picture itself. That is why folks chose to spend their time at the movies, to see the sex/action/drama/comedy and hear what they have to say without having to read it. Nobody goes to the movies to read, that is why we have school!
The same argument cannot go with music on the radio; the only avenue of our five senses that we turn on is sound. Music videos however; the line might fade or widen. Anybody else wanna tackle this idea?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
Paulc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1490 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5185 times:
Subtitles are much better - although they do not always produce the sense of drama etc that the original language does,something is always lost in the translation.
Proabably my favourite subtitled programme was "Das Boat" about a U-boat in WW2 - very tense and dramatic and i am sure it would have lost some of this had it been dubbed. The subtitles were easy to follow and having the original german really helped add to the programme
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10208 posts, RR: 25 Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5191 times:
PHX, the USA is another country that dubs everything that's not in their own language (or didn't you know that).
There is nothing like being able to follow a program in the original language. Subtitles miss a lot because they cannot translate everything (and the translators often make serious mistakes too) because there isn't enough room for lengthy phrases and discussions and some things simply cannot be translated (language specific jokes for example).
Dubbing removes part of that problem, but adds other ones in that the tonality of the original text (and with that a lot of the emotion in it etc) is lost, plus you often end up with several people in a movie having the same voice (once I saw a movie on German TV where the hero and the villain had the same voice, gets very confusing sometimes ).
So both systems have their strengths and weaknesses, neither is perfect. With modern TVs and transmission systems you often can choose between dubbed and original language transmission, but you cannot turn off subtitles (yet?) on TV programs.
Erasmus From Italy, joined Jun 2007, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5175 times:
It is a fact that, in every country where subtitles are used, the people start to dislike dubbed programs very much. Once you are used to subtitles, you don't want anything else!
Also, when kids, as soon as they can read, watch TV programs with subtitles, they learn this other language VERY quickly. In most countries were subtitles are used, most 12 years old kids, will speak and understand English quite fluently. And once you know one foreign language, people tend to want to learn a second and even a third foreign language. Watching subtitled foreign language programs, makes people interested in foreign languages and cultures.
A very good example is Belgium. In the Dutch-speaking part where TV programs are subtitled, most people under 40 speak 2, 3 or 4 languages, while most people from the French part of the country speak...only French. (No, not even Dutch, which is the main language in this small country.)
I am convinced that dubbing is the reason that most Spanish, Italian, French, British ,German AND American people ONLY understand their own language!
So, I am a BIG fan for subtitling. It brings people from all over the world closer together and therefore it improves the chances for peace on earth!
TNboy From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 1131 posts, RR: 25 Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5168 times:
I much prefer subtitles. The opening moments of "Monsoon Wedding" were a perfect illustration, with a portly, homely Indian lady valiantly "voicing over" wildly erotic intercourse noises during a film. Very, very funny. That same film was partly in English, with the Indian language segments subtitled. Dubbing would totally have destroyed the film.
A really annoying practice is that of "modifying" dialogue for films screened on aircraft. I can remember laughing at the opening of "Four Weddings and a Funeral" on a flight, where Hugh Grant was clearly saying "Damn, damn, damn, damn, damn...etc., but his mouth was making totally different movements.
My only problem with subtitles is when you view them on the small PTV screens, they can be hard to read....but they still beat dubbing in my opinion.
Cheers
Bill
"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
25 Power: I do not have a problem with dubbing, I lived in southern Hungary and I watched Slovenian, Croatian, Hungarian and Austrian TV all the time, but somet
26 PHX-LJU: Jwenting wrote: >>"PHX, the USA is another country that dubs everything that's not in their own language (or didn't you know that)." Nope, all Europea
27 Airsicknessbag: Some very good points made so far, I guess I´ll come back to this thread later when I have more time. When going to the cinema, I almost exclusively
28 707cmf: One of the biggest problem is that most people don't understand English enough to enjoy a subtitled movie. Most French people will prefer to see a dub
29 Erasmus: 707cmf, "One of the biggest problem is that most people don't understand English enough to enjoy a subtitled movie." I believe that if from now on sub
30 707cmf: Erasmus, I totally agree with you. I don't speak English because I learned it at school (the teaching there was just utter crap). I speak English beca
31 Racko: There is a law in France that iirc at least 75% of all radio and tv programs have to be in French.
32 Erasmus: 707cmf, Malheureusement, tu as raison. Je le sais. (Unfortunately, you are correct. I know) Salut, Erasmus.
33 707cmf: Racko > not entirely true. This law does exist, but applies only to the radio. It does not state that the program must be in French, but rather that i
34 PHX-LJU: 707cmf wrote: >>"The problem is that you cannot force people to see movies in English if they want French. Entertainment must remain entertainment. Fo
35 707cmf: PHX-LJU, About French public stations (France 2,3 and 5 - the others are from Germany or elsewhere), the 2 and 3 behave more and more like other chann
36 L-188: Well I have seen both the Subtitled and the Dubbed versions of the movie Das Boot..... I personally prefered the Dubbed version.
37 Klaus: PHX-LJU: Commercial stations, such as TF1, M6, RTL, SAT 1, Tele 5, etc. are in the business of mass entertainment, so I can understand why they dub mo
38 Swissgabe: In Switzerland we get mostly the dubbed movies from Germany but mostly in the TV. In the Movie we get most of the movies earlier than the German becau
39 PHX-LJU: If found two interesting encyclopedia articles on dubbing and subtitling on television, including the pros and cons of each method, if anyone is inter
40 PHX-LJU: I was just wondering... What is the dubbing/subtitling situation like elsewhere around the world? When I was in Israel years ago, I watched several TV
41 AMRAAM: Dubbed movies are outrageous. Having lived overseas for much of my life, I would know! Imagine! There are many Germans, French and Spaniards who have
42 ADG: Talking about Dubbing, why do the American Companies dub movies from overseas that are already in English? I've always wondered about that. VH-ADG
43 PHX-LJU: Please give us some examples, ADG. I'm honestly not sure what you are referring to. Maybe you are thinking of some documentaries which are produced jo
44 Racko: PHX-LJU is right, when I was in the USA all foreign movies I saw were subtitled. The only German movie I saw, Run Lola Run(Lola rennt) was subtitled v
45 PHX-LJU: I did see a few minutes of a movie dubbed into English on a Lufthansa (or was it Swissair?) flight to the States. It was a kids' movie produced in Ger
46 Canadi>nBoy: I am an avid fan of subtitles, and despise dubbing, for the same reasons others share, so I digress. One example of dubbing which still makes my frien
47 ADG: Please give us some examples, ADG. I'm honestly not sure what you are referring to. Mad Max, they even renamed it. To clear it up a little, they "chan
48 PHX-LJU: I now see your point, ADG. That happens sometimes, even with American movies that contain obscenities. Those swearwords are sometimes replaced with so
49 PHX-LJU: P.S. Here's a short item explaining WHY the Harry Potter movie has a different title in the US: http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20020123.html Canadi>nBoy, Do
50 LH423: ADG: That's a common practice to change names of of movies, that has nothing to do with subtitling. However, some movies that feature thick Scottish,
51 ADG: I don't have a problem with subtitling, I prefer to watch a foreign movie in the language in which it was filmed and read the subtitles. In fact I hat
52 PHX-LJU: Here is an editorial about an effort to bring dubbing to the States. I don't think that their diabolical plan will work. After all, educated people in
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Or I'll just stop watching tv. Oh, and I agree it's cultural rape to me.
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