Rai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4015 times:
I'm kind of sick of hearing the usual Israel vs. Palestine and U.S. vs. the rest of the world bullshit. There are other issues in the world and the situation with the white farmers in Zimbabwe is one of them.
SAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3927 times:
If Dubya (and Tone) were serious about wanting to do the best thing for civilisation, they would be looking at taking out that mass murderer Mugabe, not Saddam!
Pacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2698 posts, RR: 9 Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3890 times:
These guys are getting the shaft big time ! Mugabe has one purpose and that is to maintain his position in power come famine, civil war or worse. As for a solution, nothing legal !
BTW I thought the commonwealth had a travel ban on Mugabe yet I read in todays paper he is in Singapore. Whats with that ?
LJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4142 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3796 times:
This should be a non issue. those evil gringos stole that land from the fellow brothers. It should be rightfully stolen back, without compensation.
Unfortunately this policy of Mugabe resulted in a food shortage as those who "stolen back" the land didn't seem to be able to produce the same amount of crop than their predecessors (due to lack of funds or knowledge). Moreover, as Pacificjourney correctly puts it, most of those who "reclaimed" their land aren't able to employ the land workers and are usually friends or supporters of the Mugabe regime.
Leopold From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3798 times:
Say what you want people. It doesn't matter. Our claws are sunk so deep into it that doesn't matter. With our political clout, numbers, and tax structures that specifically target the white rich, we will be set for life. And because of political correctness and free speech, I will continue to bite the hand that feeds me and get away with it for as long as I like. What's anybody gonna say or do about it? nothing.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3762 times:
Funny how this political discourse has lapsed into flame baiting of the worst Al Sharpton vs Rush Limburger variety !
The Zimbabwe issue has a precedent in Africa, most notably in what happened in Uganda under Idi Amin in the 1970s. Then Amin forcibly took over land and businesses owned by multi-generational Ugandans of Indian descent, murdered many of them and kicked the rest out of Uganda. The 40,000 or so Indians were homeless for several months, and lost everything. Many of them had huge investments in Uganda, and many had dual citizenship with Britain (who initially created all sorts of legal jerrymandering to prevent them to move to Britain). The land, businesses, and bank accounts confiscated by Amin and his henchmen was supposed to be given to native Ugandans, but was essentially given on a silver platter to his goons who squandered it all. To make a long story short, Uganda lapsed into years of anarchy and no visible investment moved into Uganda for years (the off-shore Indian merchants and bankers wanted nothing to do with it anymore).
In the mid 1990s, Uganda under a new regime began a healing process by asking the Indians (many of whom had re-settled in the UK and established businesses there, the Madhvani industrial house being one) if they wanted to re-invest in Uganda. The first step was to make some form of repatriations, and to return some property back. There has been some reinvestment in Uganda again, but it has been slow in the coming. This should be a lesson to Mugabe and his cronies.
Although, it can be said that some of the Indian merchants may have engaged in nefarious business practices to establish themselves in Africa, and that White settlers did much of the same under racist regimes, the lot of Africans has not been helped by Amin's or Mugabe's tactics. If Zimbabwe wants to redistribute arable land, then it could do so by offering renumerations to the White farmers. Furthermore, there is plenty of arable land in Zimbabwe that could be given to Black farmers. Mugabe is just using this to further his own goals.
David B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3732 times:
remember history will come back and bite you in the ass. Treat everyone equal and you will be treated equal. If you didn't then dont bitch when you get your ass bitten off.
LMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3715 times:
Mugabe is probably condemning millions of his countrymen to starvation by his actions. Will anyone do anything about it, I doubt it.
I noticed that a lot of you are sparing with Leopold. If you ask me the reason he is being over the top is to get a reaction out of people. You would have to be one angry/bitter person to actually believe some of the stuff he says.
PROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5439 posts, RR: 5 Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3676 times:
Say what you want people. It doesn't matter. Our claws are sunk so deep into it that doesn't matter. With our political clout, numbers, and tax structures that specifically target the white rich, we will be set for life. And because of political correctness and free speech, I will continue to bite the hand that feeds me and get away with it for as long as I like. What's anybody gonna say or do about it? nothing.
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Troll alert! Troll alert!
We have a troll incursion in Sector A!
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"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
David B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3673 times:
Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! Troll railfan alert! Troll railfan alert!
We have a troll railfan incursion in Sector A!
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USFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1785 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3665 times:
This may not be the PC view in the International Community, but I don't think Mugabe's actions are that atrocious. His regime has may be corrupt, but land destribution has been a serious problem in Zimbabwe since its independence. 90% of the land is owned by the 10% white minority, and it is about time someone did something about it. Land redistribution was inevitable. The white farmers weren't going to give it up voluntarily so seizure was the only available option. Zimbabwe should not renumerate these farmers for land they recieved in an unethical fashion, if anything these farmers should renumerate Zimbabwe for the years of profits earned by the raping of the Zimbabwean people. I see this situation as one of unfortunate short-term pain for long-term gain.
SAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3642 times:
USFlyer MSP - I have spent most of my life in Africa (including several years in what was then Rhodesia). How long have you spent there?
The reality is that the farms that have been appropriated first by so-called 'war veterans' (the overwhelming majority of whom were not even born in 1979) were commercial farms that created most of Zimbabwe's GDP through exports of grain, tobacco and beef. The squatters/'war veterans' have no intention of operating these farms commercially; rather they are each talking small plots that they are attempting to grow crops on for themselves. Unfortunately for them, they have no training or knowledge of how to do this properly and they are destroying the soil and turning once profitable farms into dustbowls.
The biggest (and best) farms have miraculously been appropriated by Mad Bob Mugabe's comrades.
The net result is not one of short term pain for long term gain; rather it is short term gain (by the 'war veterans') for long term pain through the deaths of millions through starvation and the final collapse of Zimbabwe's already bankrupt economy.
Saintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3667 times:
When the white farmers had land, the local population had jobs and the people had food. Now they have neither.
Only one person to blame and that's Mugabe. The population can't complain though because he was democratically elected............
It's a shame Zimbabwe has no oil. If it had, then perhaps the West might do something about it.
Donder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 23 Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3641 times:
It not 100% a racial matter though.Bobby and his supporters try to make it one.Those who will be most affected are the black farm workers who are ,I doubt,Mugabe supporters.The farm redestribution is a way of supporting his supporters.In fact its sending Zimbabwe up shit creek without being able to buy a padel,while Mugabe can enjoy the benefits of having tens of millions of dollars in bank accounts.
I think the fact that Zimbabwe used to be a NET EXPORTER of grain highlights its plight.
USFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1785 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3614 times:
Actually SAS23, one of my best friends from college is the daughter of a Shona chief, and I did travel to Zimbabwe for 4 weeks in the (northern) summer of 1999, so I do somewhat know what I am talking about.
The distribution of wealth in Zimbabwe (and most other post-colonial African countries) is horribly unjust. 0% of the white population lives below poverty while 60% of the African population does; the white unemployment rate is virtually nil, while that of the Africans is 50%. While I may agree that Mugabe's motivation or methodology may not be ideal, I do applaud him for attempting to do something about this situation. Once these "war veterans" learn modern agricultural techniques (hopefully within a few years) these farms will again be efficient contributors to the national economy and a major social problem within Zimbabwe will be significantly resolved (admittedly it is up to the Mugabe regime to enforce this; however it is to the "war veterans" best interest.)
According the Zimbabwean's I have talked to the food shortage this year is worse than most years, but there has been a food shortage almost every year because a significant amount of the food these commercial farms produce is exported because most Zimbabwean's cannot afford it. They are willing to suffer one year for the potential of smaller or no future shortages. These people are not Mugabe fans but have optimistic views of his land redistribution program and look forward to its end result.
GDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 12707 posts, RR: 80 Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3605 times:
Two years ago, Zimbabwe was the bread basket of the region, now there are appeals for famine relief.
Most people killed by Mugabe's thugs are not white, and it's not new, (the 20,000 in Matabele province cheerfully murdered by Bob's North Korean 'trained' 5th brigade in the early 80's for a start).
In 1980, the UK agreed to fund and facilitate gradual land reform, but no real interest was shown until recent years, when Zanu PF's chronic corruption and mismanagent wrecked the economy, so mad Bob had to create a diversion, a scapegoat, like all tyrants do.
Recently, a BBC report done covertly (most foreign and critical Zimbabwe reporters are subject to harassment), showed the mess the seized farms are now in.
Bob's cronies don't attempt to work the land, often it has just been trashed.
Still, guess who the begging bowl will be held out to? That's right, the evil Brits, who in Bob's rhetoric are trying to recolonise as part of a massive homosexual led, imperialist plot.
USFlyerMSP, that wealth ratio yoi quote for Zimbabwe sounds comparable, or better than, figures for the US!
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
What is going on in Zimbabwe is a crime. Not because of the seizing of the farms owned by whites, but because the blacks that worked on these farms are being kicked off of them as well. Since the end of European control of these countries in Africa, the legacies of Imperialism (infrastructure, economy, etc) have been left to ruin by corrupt governments, more concerned about obtaining wealth as opposed to helping their citizens, no matter what race they are. Mugabe is just another in a long line of power hunger corrupt leaders in Africa. The fact that he is giving the lands to high ranking officials and supporters, who know about as much as farming as I do (NONE), is a joke in itself. This country was also a leading exporter of grains up until this policy was enacted, since then, farms are being returned to nature, and a nation is going hungry. Assistance had been offered, but Mugabe refuses to take any aid that has been offered. This guy needs to be gotten rid of and fast. His pride will kill off many of his people, and the longer he refuses aid from Europe and North America, his people will suffer all the more.
Saa737-244 From South Africa, joined Jan 2000, 32 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3567 times:
USFlyer, your earlier statement "90% of the land is owned by the 10% white minority" is wrong on both accounts ... whites make up closer to 1% of the population of Zimbabwe, and to claim that they own 90% of the land is just laughable. Prior to this land redistribution program, the 4500-odd white farmers owned about one third of the country's arable land (not total land). The vast majority of land in the country is held in "tribal trust" areas, which are ruled over by local chiefs who decide who gets to farm where. The commercial farms of the white farmers are not more than 20% of the total land area of Zimbabwe. The Zimbabwean government intends to take 95% of this land from the farmers and distribute it to the landless.
The fact that this is going to be an economic disaster is denied only by those who choose not to see it. Over half a million farmworkers are going to lose their employment and income. Banks are going to lose the mortgaged property being seized by the state, and are facing having to write off millions of ZW$s in loans (the government has no money to compensate the banks - it's bankrupt, surviving only on handouts from Libya (fuel) and South Africa (electricity & grain) - and the farmers who will have lost their land won't be able to pay back their loans either as they would've lost everything without compensation).
The economy of Zimbabwe is based on agriculture, and production of maize(corn) & tobacco has already dropped by 60% from last year. That means less food, and also, less exports, which in turn means less foreign exchange, which in turn means more fuel shortages, less medicines, etc. The people being settled onto the seized land are primarily city dwellers, and the outlook for their success in agriculture is pretty gloomy. It is a fact that the world's largest food-producing nations (USA, etc) are characterised by a low rural population running large commercial farming ventures, NOT a large rural population farming small plots. ...these farms will again be efficient contributors to the national economy... Sorry, I don't see it happening. This resettlement program runs counter to good agricultural policy, as evidenced in food-exporting countries across the globe.
What's with this statement? While I may agree that Mugabe's motivation or methodology may not be ideal, I do applaud him for attempting to do something about this situation.
Have you forgotten that he's had over twenty years to do something about the situation? He has been president since 1980. Throughout the 80's and the 90's, where was his concern about the land issue?? It clearly wasn't a problem then ... but then he was winning the elections hands-down, the economy was doing OK, no-one was starving. But after blowing the budget a couple of times over on a military campaign in the Congo in the late 90's, the government started running out of money, the currency nose-dived, and the cost of imported food, fuel, etc, sky-rocketed. Suddenly people were losing their jobs, no longer able to afford their previous standard of living, starting to go hungry ... and suddenly things didn't look so certain on the political front, so ... well, go figure.
a significant amount of the food these commercial farms produce is exported
Yip, it's deliberately done that way so the government can earn foreign exchange ... it takes the foreign earnings itself and pays out the farmers at the official exchange rate of around US$1:ZW$65 ... the blackmarket exchange rate is about ten times that, so the farmers get a raw deal there as well.
They are willing to suffer one year for the potential of smaller or no future shortages.
Your friends are obviously out of touch with the feelings of their countrymen back home ... read for yourself this article from Thursday's Financial Gazette (Zimbabwean newspaper): http://www.fingaz.co.zw/fingaz/2002/August/August8/640.shtml
These people are not Mugabe fans but have optimistic views of his land redistribution program and look forward to its end result.
I don't, because I know that its end result is going to be a whole lot of my tax money being used to feed starving neighbours who ought not to be starving in the first place, and a whole lot of starving people entering my country as economic refugees when their country's economy inevitably plunges off the precipice it's poised on.
QANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3514 times:
Uh, the only way to stop Mugabe is to ensure that his precious private reserves of anything and everything are cut off. This can only be achieved by a covert military operation headed by South africa. The violence must stop. In other news, theres a whole big war going on at the moment involving most african states. Everyone wants a piece of Congo (formerly Zaire) and as a result tens of thousands of soldiers, militia and civillians have died. But I guess Britney Spears' new video or the US president visiting a Kindergarten is far more important when compared with this particular conflict.
SAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3485 times:
USFlyer MSP - you're obviously not aware of it, but it's the Shonas that are the problem. African politics are generally organised along tribal lines, so you have Mugabe's Shona ZANU-PF decimating the country at the expense of the Matabele, whites and Asians. Your friend would have been able to go to school in the States purely because of her father being a Shona chief; had she been the daughter of a Matabele chief chances are she'd never have been able to leave Zimbabwe.
And I am sure that your four weeks in Zimbabwe, as a guest of ZANU officials, would have left you with great insight into the realities of the country.
The commercial farms were the largest employers in Zimbabwe. Now they have been decimated, the responsibility for the unemployment rests firmly in the hands of your buddy Mad Bob Mugabe. Incidentally, given that the majority of the arable land is in Matabeleland, this is being used as yet another tribal terrorist weapon by ZANU - as it is largely their opposition that is affected.
QANTASForever - sorry, but the DRC war is now officially at an end. And yes, Mugabe was heavily involved in it, supporting Kabila in exchange for diamonds and cobalt (the latter of which was largely exported to his close ally, North Korea).
Mcdougald From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3473 times:
USFlyer MSP wrote: "I do applaud him for attempting to do something about this situation"
Forgive me if I choose to keep my hands on the keyboard and not join in on the applause.
Mugabe has no intention of doing anything about poverty, unemployment or any other social ill. The only situation he is attempting to do something about is his own political survival.
The creation of a sustainable, high living standard depends on the rule of law. People don't have much incentive to create something of value -- such as by starting a business -- unless they have some reasonably solid protection from theft or extortion. Mugabe has nothing but contempt for the rule of law. Would you trust him to not steal, plunder or terrorize from any of the black farmers if they became successful and produced something of value after what he has done to the white farmers?
There is nothing but pain in the future for a Mugabe-run Zimbabwe. No Zimbabwean has much incentive to create anything of value, outside of doing whatever is necessary to get one's self and one's family by. No one, domestically or from the wider world, will want to invest much money in anything that might be seized without compensation. Zimbabwean currency is nearly worthless, and the country's supply of foreign currency is practically gone.
Sally Struthers, pack your bags. You'll be on your way to Zimbabwe soon.
25 ADG: I think what is going on in Zimbabwe is appalling, Australia tried to have them suspended from the Commonwealth but we lost that attempt. Action needs
26 Dc863: Oh well, in this case black nationalism is going to flush another African country down the toilet. I give them 8 months before famine hits.
28 SAS23: A report on the situation from the Johannesburg Sunday Times http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2002/08/11/insight/in01.asp. USFlyer MSP - I hope you read t
29 Aviatsiya.ru: The population can't complain though because he was democratically elected............ Yeah, I am sure the MDC and the Commonwealth would agree with t
30 Jaysit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/africa/2000/zimbabwe_crisis/slideshow/default.stm This is a good backgrounder from the BBC on the Zim
31 SAS23: Another very interesting editorial on the situation. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2002/08/13/do1301.xml The biggest prob
32 Jwenting: Zimbadwe has a long history of Apartheid towards whites. In fact, the situation there during the revolution is the main reason the black population in
33 Lj: we choose not to act as long as that government is a black one ... and as a result, millions starve. Unless you want to give Mugabe more ammunition in
34 SAS23: Jwenting, what are you smoking? I lived in Zimbabwe-Rhodesia at the time of independence and subsequently in South Africa. I can tell you from first-h
35 Boeing4ever: Say what you want people. It doesn't matter. Our claws are sunk so deep into it that doesn't matter. With our political clout, numbers, and tax struct
36 SA-JET: Mugabe is a despotic, pathetic, sad little excuse for a human being! He has single-handedly raped his country. He has destroyed Zim's food production
37 OO-AOG: Another african country going down. Really a shame, it was definately one of my favorites places to spend some days off.
38 ADG: Australia is about to put sanctions on Zimbabwe which will restrict their travel into Australia and restrict their ability to move their money into ou
39 Pacificjourney: The Sec. General. of The Commonwealth is the Rt. Hon. Doug McKinnon, an elected position.
40 Matt D: No disrespect meant, but who gives a schidt about what's happening in Zimbabwe? Why should whatevers happening in that lost world even make the news m
41 Alpha 1: No disrespect meant, but who gives a schidt about what's happening in Zimbabwe? Why should whatevers happening in that lost world even make the news m
42 Matt D: Well, if you say so Alpha. But I'm not losing sleep over it.
43 Mcdougald: "No disrespect meant, but who gives a schidt about what's happening in Zimbabwe?" A lot of people don't. Just like a lot of people have absolutely no
44 Saa737-244: "No disrespect meant, but who gives a schidt about what's happening in Zimbabwe?" No disrepect meant, but the same could be said of any of your angst-
45 SAS23: Easy. If the US is truly concerned about the safety and security of inhabitants of countries thousands of miles from its borders, and wants to effect
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