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Tony Blair:Good, Bad Or Just Plain Ugly?  
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

For me, while im loathed to support any labour leader, i do have to say that as a statesmen i think tony blair does quite well.Hes been excellent during international crisises and our role within europe and nato has been strengtherned as a result.

He took the lead during the kosovo crisis when others didnt want to know, he took control when iraq kicked up a fuss last time, he also handled the northern ireland peace process very well and has been a force for good since sept 11.

However, we have been lucky in the uk that we have had a series of good international statesmen.John major was excellent in taking over from the iron lady during the middle of the gulf crisis, he also was strong during the balklans crisis and during the peace process, especially when the ira cancelled their 1st ceasefire, he also did well when the ussr collapsed though our relations with europe where strained.

maggie, well enough said, a great stateswomen...

however the point of this thread is to ascertain whether you think tony blair has done a good job overall, his domestic policies havent been brilliant.




It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1465 times:

Well firstly, to make the topic fairer, Good, Bad, Ugly Or Just Plain Beautiful would have been a better choice.

Tony Blair has done quite well I think despite all the bad press that he gets. On a scale of one to ten, probably 7.5 from me.

Internationally fine. €urope doesn't like it too much and he can't go much further without crashing out of government (Iraq issue), so he's fine.

Domestically. People expect too much. Improvements are coming in. Education for example has just shown an improvement in A Level and GCSE (hopefully Big grin) results. While some newspapers, notably the Daily Telegraph, play down the issue, the facts speak for themselves. Students and teachers are working harder. The hypocritical point of view of such is that if the tests were made much harder, then the pass rate would be much lower, and the twats will still get up on their high horses and announce that students and teacher haven't done well at all.

Public services. People expect things too quickly on the whole. Health. It takes more than 5 years to train a doctor and yet people expect results in about 2 years, even 1. It is illogical to think that and it's all in the mind. The result of this is increased spin (whether it's good or bad) by the government to say that yes, short term statistics are used in a way to portray the health service as improving - which it is. However, the end result often is the fact that there are still too little doctors and nurses. It is human nature after all to remember the bad and mainly forget the good.

Education standards have increased and schools are getting more money to spend by themselves in the ways they feel fit. League tables indicate that schools are getting better. League tables themselves and the issue on whether they are helpful or not is arguable. The unhelpful camp say that it's not only statistics. I agree, it isn't. However, how does one measure effort for example? A D grade at GCSE may be spectacular for a person - 100%, however, do you measure that on a effort scale of 10?

Transport. Well this has been poor. Trains are improving but not much and the image of trains is not good. In essence, poor. With regards to air transport. I rate them 0. The white paper in the late 90s indicated an opening of UK skies to foreign airlines, notably Singapore Airlines, so that they can operate flights to the USA from the UK. In addition, one should note that the US has already given permission for the SIA flights, the UK has not. Weird.

Crime. It's going well, however there is still a lack of policepeople. Pay is low.

Economy. Absolutely fantastic. The prudence of the Chancellor is a testament to the Labour government. The economy is going well and unemployment is at 3.1% - the lowest since 1975.

Spin. Disastrous but you need spin doctors. Jo Moore case was a shambles and the DoT used it too much. Alistair Campbell is a scapegoat but that is not to excuse his efforts, sometimes failed, to manipulate the media.

So Tony Blair and his government are doing farely well. However, everyone, I included, want things done soon / immediately. This is frankly not possible. It is a shame but it's the truth, however we would rather concentrate on something that can be aimed for, rather than waiting for something to be aimed for.




Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 1461 times:
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As a international world leader, Blair has taken himself to new levels unlike other British PM's. He's done immensely well in the things Go Canada mentioned, we'll wait and see if he decides to go along with the americans on attacking Iraq. Domestically, things are getting better, improving the NHS, public transport will take at least 4 or 5 years to see the results, not overnight. I actually believe the NHS is brilliant, the system is not working, but the actual HNS treatment is good.

Education standards are very high, as shown by the recent results, more and people are attending higher education, pumping millions into the education system by Gordon Brown seems to be working, it ain't perfect, but it's working. Crime is a black spot, the law has many loopholes, anti-social behaviour is a problem, kids are committing crime multiple times, yet they receive weak sentences and are let free again to roam society in no time. We need tougher sentences, and more police bobbies on the streets and in crime hotspots.

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlinePaulc From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 1490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

The sooner we are rid of phoney tony the better - he has done little to improve the health service, public transport and crime levels in the 5 years labour have been in power. He is determined to sell the country out with regard to europe and the euro. He seems to want to break up the uk into its member countries by giving scotland, wales and NI individual parliaments.
Perhaps the sight of the English flag and the playing of "Land of Hope & Glory" at the commonwealth games recently may encourage him to rethink what it means to be English.

He is a power hungry control freak who uses people like alistair campbell to deal with the press and to avoid the difficult questions. He has little respect for the paliamentary process and the traditions of the country. His cabinet appointments have been found wanting ie prescott, byers, cook - all of whom failed at their respective jobs.

I did not vote for blair in either of the 2 general elections and would never ever do so.





English First, British Second, european Never!
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

John Major was a great international statesman. He representeded Britain's interests and did what was right on the world stage. Tony Blair on the other hand is only projecting himself as a world statesman for his own purposes and to deflect interest from the Labour government. Why do you think we get all the spin? No other British government has needed to use so much spin, so why this one? The answer is their policies. If they were any good they would stand up on their own and you can't argue with that.

User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (11 years 8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 1430 times:

"He is determined to sell the country out with regard to europe and the euro."

You could think so, however how can he when people have the vote?

"He seems to want to break up the uk into its member countries by giving scotland, wales and NI individual parliaments."

I think you are generalising. The reason Scotland has a parliament was because they wanted some sort of independence. The reason Wales has an assembly was because they wanted some sort of independence. They are still complaining that they have been unfairly treated - getting an assembly instead of a parliament. So before you go saying that Tony Blair wants to break up the UK - one man - try going to Wales and Scotland and campaign for them to ditch their parliament / assembly.

"kids are committing crime multiple times, yet they receive weak sentences and are let free again to roam society in no time"

I agree. The government should ignore the child protection agencies on this one and lock such children up. They are obviously unintelligent and have nothing better to do than to vandalise and burn cars etc... The first method should be to find out why they are behaving in such a way and then finding a remedy. Normally this works. If that doesn't work - talking about the older teens here (15+) then prison for 10 days should give them some time to think over their actions. I am unimpressed with such people.




Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1417 times:
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Anti-social behaviour is rife in inner city surburbs in the UK, tougher sentences and punishment for irresponsible parents is the answer.

Wait till Gordion Brown becomes PM.

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

"Anti-social behaviour is rife in inner city surburbs in the UK, tougher sentences and punishment for irresponsible parents is the answer."

True, but I also blame the children. Most immature.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1415 times:
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Yes ofcourse singapore air, but kids are kids, you will not change their behaviour no matter what, just have to hope the next generation of youngsters are not all thugs.





In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13044 posts, RR: 78
Reply 9, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1409 times:

I'm not so sure about Major as a good statesman, ask those in the former Yugoslavia who suffered, more than they should have due to Major's (through his Foreign Secretary Hurd) policy of appeasement to the Serbs.
Then Hurd left government to get a fat cat job with the main bank that leant money to Slobbo's thugs.
Kind of puts Labour's foot-shooting spin in context.
Then Major made us a laughing stock in Europe, as did his predecessor (who bangs on, or did until she recently had to end public speaking) about Euro takeover plots, when she signed most of the argreements she now opposes.
As for Blair, I think he genuinely saw Sept 11th as a turning point, and thought his links with both the EU and US could be useful, and unlike some NATO countries put forces where his mouth is.
However, this Iraq escapade could be the undoing of him, if Tories think this will help them, think again, they are closer to the US Republican administration after all, do they fancy Gordon Brown as PM? No Blair 'big tent' politics from him, he really hates the Conservatives!
In fact, the most surprising political development since 1997, it's the Tories utter inability to pick themselves up off the floor.
Poll wise, they are where they were 5 years ago. In no small measure due to them picking 'Maggie-approved' leaders, not who may be more attractive to the country and carry out the much needed changes.
Ask yourselves this, if Blair is so terrible, where is the opposition?
And if the bigoted, snarling, mean-spirited, hypocritical Daily Mail is really the voice of the opposition, well small wonder the Tories are still at rock-bottom, (did anyone notice any great interest in the NHS from the Mail between 1979-1997?)
However, the biggest danger to Blair's new found role on the world stage is Iraq, if he does choose not to take part (admittedly unlikely) he'll soon stop being Bush's new best friend.
Unless the operation goes wrong.
Blair probably thought he could moderate Bush, no chance with him surrounded by all his ideologue advisders. Colin Powell has been marginlised, so what chance a foreign leader?



User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1406 times:

Crime. It's going well, however there is still a lack of policepeople. Pay is low.
???
Do you know what you're talking about?Police starting salaries are very high now-higher than teacher's starting salaries.

The prudence of the Chancellor is a testament to the Labour government. The economy is going well and unemployment is at 3.1% - the lowest since 1975.
You can no longer call Gordan Brown prudent when he has reverted to historical Labour tax and spend policies.The economies robustness was more to do with Thatcher micro-economic reforms rather than anything Brown has done,although the independence of the Bank of England is a good thing.


True, but I also blame the children. Most immature
These kids have nothing to do and know that the 'law can't touch them'.They certainly aren't intelligent but they're smart.They know what they're doing for sure.



User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

regarding crime, it isnt that good, crime isnt falling, violent crimes is increasing by drastic amounts, morale is low in the polcie force.They are starved of resources and when extra money comes along its waisted.The gov had introduced a scheme which means every time some is stopped, not even searched, the office has to fill out 3 forms and send copies to various people.

Immingration and customs is patheic to say the least, we are losing millions of taxpayers money through illegal trade and the goverment hasnt found a way to clamp down on the most appaling trafficking of them all, humans. the aslym system has collapsed, take the fire at the centre at bedford(for those who dont know its a dentention centre), the aslym seekers set fire to it, the thing burnt down and now they are at loose, working in the black economy for five pounds under, little more than slave labour!!!

this is because the gov would fit sprinklers or fire alarms to this centre, even though the fire authority recommended it in the strongest personal terms.

Tranpsost, god dont even bother, theres no clear plan regarding airport growth, the trains dont work and the road are now being tolled. for example, it costs 16 euros (return) to get from northern tuscany to florence(a 2+ half journey) a distance longer than birmingham new street to london but at a fraction of the price.

The care is good in the nhs if you have the right disease, if you have cancer, your fine, heart disease and they can do something(albiet on a long waiting list), you have liver disease and they dont do anything.

The care for our elderly is disgraceful, the nhs is meant to be free at the point of delivery but the elderly are forced to sell their homes to fund for increasingly expensive care, due to labours administration.My grandmother died recently without any care or help from the nhs, the nhs turned around and said 'your better off with cancer', which takes 95% of the budget. note, im not complaining about cancer treatement, ive ad it myself, ive lost many a family member but it goes to show just how bad things ares.

Money can be thrown at the nhs but its the system, in stockholm, the health care is cheaper and they dont have a waiting list.

Pensions are falling, not just because of the stock market(despite what the chancellor might dream, he cant control the stock markets and nobody expects him to). the main reason for the fall in pensiosn is the tax on pension funds, introduceded by...errm new labour.

the public private partnerships are a disaster, a private prison costs 90,000 per place yet a state run costs 40 000. PFI hospitals are built at a greater cost with fewer beds. Schools are taken over and the class sizes rise, etc etc.

the reason why lab did so well in 2001 is because of the situation regarding the conservatives.


singapore air we have a right to critise, labour promised the earth at 1997 and again in 2001, it hasnt happened, our taxes are going up but theres nothing to pay for it.We were told in the last parliament that tax rises meant that the nhs would improve, it hasnt, transports collapsed, the police are in chaos and yet we are told that more money is needed, its labours own fault, they stuck to Tory spending plans for 3 years when they got into office. We are spending more but the performance is going down.

Education, well its a real bugbear when moaning old biddies complain that a levels are getting easier, they certainly arent however esttle morris ahs a lot to answer for.She called state schools 'bogstandard', said she wouldnt touch some of them' with a bargpole' and totally cocked up the a level system by introducing AS levels that placed students and teachers under stress so much that the number of people doing full a levels is decreasing.

Labour have a lot to answer for, stripping schools of their independence by removing grant maintained statuts(singapore air, a conservative policy) and then turning around five years later and wanting more specialists schools.Regarding freedom for headteachers, it isnt freedom, more directives are coming out of whitehall, if you set schools free, do it the grant maintained way, it worked, but labour being labour.....



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1398 times:

Go Canada, your outlook depcits a bleak picture of 'government' in this country. Emigration could be on the cards for you.

Frankly, I have little to say in response to your post. It seems like you want everything to be turned over instantly. Do you know how long it takes to train a teacher or a doctor for example? And you and others want results now and then.

In addition, your comments for the education system talk more about words being spoken than actions in the school place. Results are up unless you think Labour faked those results and spun them round.

And what the hell are you talking about when you say..."trains dont work and the road are now being tolled. for example". Last time I looked (literally), the trains were working, the trains are improving steadily with regards to both punctuality and service levels, and the roads are not tolled. My father uses the motorway every weekday and he reports no toll charging.

Don't suppose these ones wet your lips?





Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

Singapore air,

Last time I looked (literally), the trains were working, the trains are improving steadily with regards to both punctuality and service levels, and the roads are not tolled. My father uses the motorway every weekday and he reports no toll charging.

Bollocks. I use the train and tube most days to get to worse and the trains definatly aren't improving. Fares have increased twice this year, delays are getting worse. I use the GNER trains to go back up north to Leeds to visit my family, and the service on these has definatly decreased over the past 5 years. Services on board, punctuality, prices and customer service has plummeted. Is this labour's fault? Everyone would say "but the Tory's privatised them!" which is true but Labour has had quite a lot of time to do SOMETHING about the trains, and all it seems they've done is critise everyone and destroy railtrack.

Regarding the Virgin trains, they're not going to be able to run at anywhere near top speed on the west coast mainline thanks to track developments just not happening.


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1385 times:

The trains are a complete joke as is the Tube.Try going through Earl's Court to Victoria at 8 in the morning and see what its like.Too much of the increased spending will be wasted in pay rises demanded by unions too etc.

User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1383 times:
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I agree that the trains are a mega mess as it's always overcrowded, but what can you do when u have 60 million people squeezed on a tiny island? The UK is suffering from over-crowding, there are simply too many people in too little space.




In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

Gordon Brown may be considered prudent but I have never been so heavily taxed before. We are not just talking about income tax but all the other stealth taxes he has brought in and his biggest crime is the plundering of the pension funds every year. A lot of people could have had a comfortable retirement in future years but with most pension funds turning to money purchase schemes the future looks bleak. Brown's view is out of site, out of mind. It won't be his problem in 20 years time when it really bites.

As for a credible oposition, yes it is amazing that there still isn't one. That's just a big a threat to the country as Labour.


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1369 times:

sinagpore, there is congestion charging in durham, its being introduced in london, there are plans for motorway tolls..if you dont watch the news i cant help you.

regarding exam results, yes of course they are improving, i never implied it was a fake did i, i said tis a bugbear of mine when people complain regarding the exams. However, students are leaving school without basic literacy and numeracy skills.The number of a level enterants is DECREASING because of the polciy of introducing AS levels. Exam board are failing to mark papers on time.Students are getting further into debt, if you dont believe me try going to university.

I cannot believe you seriuosly thikn the trains are doing well, its a complete joke from end to finish.Im not surprised you have been brainwashed by virgins pr, of course you will always love richard branson till the day he dies, though of course stagecaoch know own virgin trains and since virgin atl isnt technically owned by branson either then perhaps you could wake up and smell the coffee???????



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (11 years 8 months 6 days ago) and read 1368 times:

If this was going to turn into a Conservatives vs. Singapore_Air then I wouldn't have bothered.

Then again, I should have known such a thread would generate into this.

Good day to you. Conservatives? You can have 'em.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (11 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1349 times:

singapore it isnt, many people with criticism for tony blair are traditional labour voters. i said blair was a good international statesman but he promised so much and he hasnt delivered.

and can i remind you there is more than two parties in britain?



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
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