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Time To Test Israel's Resolve  
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4496 times:

It seems that a deal has been brokered by the Israelis and Palestinians which will result in Israel removing its troops from the West Bank and other Palestinian territories.

Already Hamas has threatened the peace, saying that the Israeli withdrawal is 'nothing more than an attempt to disrupt the legitimate Palestinian Intifada'. It has warned that it will continue attacks on Israelis. Israel has urged Arafat and co to rein in these activists.

When the inevitable happens, and the Israelis are attacked by a suicide bomber, Israel must do what it did during the Gulf War when attacked by Saddam, and not retaliate. It must do this for at least 3 months, giving the Arafat time to try and control the activists. If after the 3 month period the attacks are continuing and it seems Arafat is doing little to deter them, then Israel has full moral right to reoccupy those areas in order to safeguard its own safety. The main difference from the present is that currently Israel does not seem to be holding the moral high ground, as its presence in Palestine is viewed as unlawful occupation. However, by waiting and putting the ball firmly in the Palestinians court, Israel has an excellent opportunity to determine whether peace really is possible, or if it needs to take out Hamas and co once and for all.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13742 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Ryanb741: I would tend to agree. Though it is a bashing of Israeli ego, I think they will think it's worth the wait.

On a related matter, why don't Israel just build walls round their land? Palestinians shouldn't go into Israeli land, and Israelis dont want to go into Palestinaian land. This would be much more useful than having guards placed everywhere, which has quite fankly seemed to have failed.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4367 times:

soo, how many people should they wait to be killed until "they hold the higher moral ground". When Hamas decides to start killing innocent civilians again how much do you think you would take until you do something about it?


"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

You miss the point. Hamas kill these people because they view it as a legitimate struggle against Israeli occupation. So if Israel removes the reasons for Hamas' grievances (i.e. the occupation and brutalisation of Palestinian territory), and then Hamas continue their attacks, then the Israelis could then say that Hamas is purely a terrorist organisation and not the freedom-fighters that Hamas claims they are. At the moment the Palestinians have the moral high ground (to a degree) because they are fighting occupation. I say remove their reason to fight, and see what they are really made of.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

I get your point but, how much is too much. You cant expect them to wait three months no matter what. What if the start killing civilians with suicide bombing at say 1 or more a day. How many people do you think could be killed in 3 months. I'm saying don't place a specific time limit on it.


"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

So what do you want to do, Galaxy5? The policy of retaliation DOES NOT WORK! You retaliate, they retaliate, you retaliate, they retaliate.....at least this way has SOME hope of a peaceful outcome.

However, you can't expect Israel to sit back and do nothing if its civilians are being killed. It's quite within their right to retaliate, AS LONG as it's legal and doesn't affect civilians significantly. Hopefully Israel withdrawing from Palestinian towns (completly) could be the sign of a new wave of talks and hopefully something positive.


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4376 times:

ryan you raise good points, however, this has happened in the past and the terror didnt stop. Israel has withdraw from the palestinain lands and the attacks continued. The pro-palestinian camp has never been able to justify why the terror attacks continued even though israel did what it was asked and withdrew, its been here before. Its offered peace deals, its withdrawn but the terror continued. the attacks happened before the occupation in 1967, they happened after wards, they happened before the peace process, during it and afterwards(though we are now told that they are only bombing and maiming because there is no peace deal!) and when a peace plan presents itself in any shape or form, the terrorists step up their attacks and its a shame that some people cant grasp the fact that no matter what happens hamas and its friends wont stop. The only way to end terror is to fight them and destroy them.

Its now upto Yasser Arafat to clamp down on the terrorists, we are told often that arafat would if israel didnt occupy palestinian land. Now its withdrawing in some quarters and is also giving the palestinians the next installment of their tax dollars, arafat has a chance to act. The peace process now rests on the PA, if they fail to act then the world will see again that israel has a legitimate right to go into palestinian areas and smash these groups. the problem is that it will be clear to you me and many others but the pro-palestinians will still bleat on and moan and find a way to justify and excuse the terror campaigns.

Regarding the moral high ground, israel cant win. Before the 6 day war, the wolrd was aghast that the arabs were about to attack israel again, everyone feared for israel. Israel launched a strike first, defeated 4 armies in 6 days and then was accussed of being a bully. the israelis are so sick and tired of being killed, they are so sick and tired of these groups trying to destroy them that they no longer care about world opinion. World opinion doesnt have its survival at stake and many now have an attitude that the UN etc can go hang themselves.

As we can see from part of the BBC report, the palestinian militants have no intention of ending the violence which they started.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2201814.stm

"Israel has reached agreement with the Palestinians to begin reducing its military presence in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Bethlehem in exchange for Palestinian efforts to reduce militant attacks.

But the deal was thrown into doubt almost as soon as it was made, with Palestinian militant groups saying they would not halt their attacks on Israel.

Palestinian officials said the two sides had agreed that Israel would withdraw its forces from Gaza and Bethlehem within 48 hours.

But Israeli officials indicated much a looser schedule to allow the Palestinian agencies the opportunity to calm the situation and quell anti-Israeli violence.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesperson Yafa Ben Ari told the BBC: "At the moment we have a high level of warnings of future terror activity and that level of warning must cease."

BBC correspondent James Reynolds in Jerusalem says this deal is very much seen as a first step.

A similar agreement was reached earlier in August but it came to nothing.

Palestinian opposition

The militant Palestinian group Hamas has said it would not support the plan.

"Hamas and the Palestinian people reject any agreement which aims at destroying our resistance and ending the intifada, which is what this agreement is aimed at," a spokesman told the AFP news agency.

"Israel... would do everything in order to ease conditions on the Palestinian population; the Palestinian side takes responsibility to calm the security situation and reduce violence" Israeli Defence Ministry

And Islamic Jihad, another militant organisation, said it would step up attacks on militant targets.

"The Palestinian people's answer will be to escalate the resistance to foil [Israeli Defence Minister Binyamin] Ben-Eliezer's plan," said Khalid al-Batsh, a Gaza Strip leader for the group.

"We in Islamic Jihad reject this agreement because it will consecrate the Israeli occupation of our land," he told AFP.

The BBC's Barbara Plett says that the leftist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) has also rejected the agreement and that strong reservations have been expressed within Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.

The armed wing of Fatah, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, has also warned the Palestinian leadership against endorsing the deal.

'Confidence-building'

The agreement to ease the military clampdown was reached by Mr Ben-Eliezer with Palestinian Interior Minister Abdel Razaq al-Yahya.

Mr Ben-Eliezer said the deal was a "confidence-building measure", essential to future progress.

A senior Palestinian official, Nabil Abu Rudeina, said the withdrawals would "prepare the atmosphere" for more pullbacks.




It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

Ryanb741,

You say that Israel should wait 3 months before it retaliate any attack (and I promise you there will be).
I say that Israel already waited 7 (yes, seven) years.
The first agreement with the PA was signed in 1993. Then Israel started to withdraw from the GZ and WB. All that time Israel was suffering from Hamas suicide bombers and in fact more than 400 Israelis were killed between 1993 and September 2000 (when the Intifada started) without any Israeli retaliation (people tend to forget that number).

From Hamas point of view even Tel-Aviv is an occupied territory and if no one does anything to stop them, they won’t stop.

The PA must stop the terror first of anything else and to start acting against Hamas (and the rest of the terror groups). This is the only way they can get anyhing from Israel.
It isn’t Israel on test here, it is the PA.





Long live the B747
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

avi is correct to state its upto the PA now, there can be no excuses, israels doing what the PA wanted, its also releasing much needs funds to the palestinians, if they dont clamp down on terror then israel will be back.


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4359 times:

I agree with Ryan on this one, but I have to say that realistically, this is probably not going to work out, especially not with Israel's current leadership (not to mention the Palestinians). Since many Palestinian radicals (as well as key leaders) admit that their true goal is to establish control over all of Israel, they will easily find an excuse to continue their attacks not matter what, while still being portrayed as "freedom fighters". That is also the reason why the wall thing Singapore_Air mentioned is not going to work (politically anyways). Another reason is that the two countries depend on each other, whether they like to admit it or not, so total separation is never going to be practical.

LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSilverangel From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 4358 times:

Gee ryan,

Your proposal sounds suspiciously similar to one stated by a certain WN700Driver, (as in the one who is usually associated with THI)... last week.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/268893/

I certainly agree that it is a good idea, but it looks a lot as if you are trying to credit yourself with someone else's idea. I know this is the internet & all & what we say doesn't count for much, but please do cite your sources.  Big grin Anyways, here's what it said for the record....


"oh wait for it alpha one, any minute someone will accuse you of starting a flame war...i agree with most of your points except ariel sharon, not because i think the mans a hero but i prefer him to ben net, if ben net was elected i dont think peace would move forward."


Canada, I know old Bibi wasn't the best for peace in the region, but surely he cannot be worse than Sharon. Sharon is basically what Saddam would be if he had a United States on his side. Also, there were far less suicide attacks from the Palastinians & less attacks into the WB by the IDF under Netinyahu(sp) as well. Like I said, not the best, but better than te current offerings...

As for indulging Palastine. I say do it for three months. During this time, it doesn't matter what the PA says or does to Isreal. No attacks into the WB or Gaza, PA gets full statehood & all Arab and/or Palastinians living in Isreal propper get full citizenship & are NOT subject to profiling whatsoever. Add to this whatever other benefits any citizen of a soverign nation gets & that's what they get.

If in these first three months the PA does not stop with the bombings & grow the f*ck up allready, than I say Isreal does what it wants to them. With the caveat that whatever they do WILL settle the issue once & for all. Whatever their gov't has done to Palastine, I do agree that Isreali citizens really ddon't deserve to get bombed every other day.

Anyways, don't get me wrong, I haven't had that much of a change of heart; I still sympathise greatly with the Palastinian people. But lately, the PA is starting to remind me of that ornery old uncle that every family has. You know the one I am talking about. Lives in your basement, borrows money all the damned time, runs up huuuuuuuuuge utilities, smokes weed, & then has the nerve to talk shit about you to all his friends, whom he is also borrowing a lot of money from. I am sick of it. There is real potential for Palastine, but they are being robbed blind by these drama-queens.

Cheers & peace to all.


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 4355 times:

Well, forgive me for not reading every single post before posting my observations  Big grin. Anyway, the deal was brokered only today - that's what led me to write it. What is your point???!!!???


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 day ago) and read 4329 times:

Damn, I have to go to work, I mean, right now, but when I get back, boy, are there a few things to say to this!  Smile