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Poor USA Environmental Position  
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13743 posts, RR: 19
Posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

The World Environmental Summit is due to start in Johannesburg.

However, I for one find the USA's environmental stance, a farce, a facade, a presidential campaign front, and poor. It is a pity.

Though oil barons are mostly blamed for the Texan presdient's stance, I do not think it's just them. Many Americans, hence voters, will be hit in the pocket somewhat, if environmentally friendly policies come into place. And that is not a politically sound policy to therefore follow.

However, I think it is needed. It is unfortunate that a significant number of middle class people upwards (I think the US calls them 'Middle Americans'), will not sacrifice some Dollars for the environment. The notion that we all care for the environment but do not want to spend money on it is an illogical one and is one that will therefore lead us to an environmental disaster - "resistance is futile" as the Star Trek Borg say, or at least if the USA continues this 'resistance' against the environment.

The USA emitts the most global warming gases. Global warming however, is denied by the US Government to protect itself. This is unimpressive and shows lack of compassion and thought for the future.

China and India are also increasingly giving out global warming gases, however, their per capita emissions are far less than the USA's.

The Kyoto agreement has gone far in €urope. The UK for example has reduced greenhouse gas emissions significantly and the rest of €urope has reduced such emissions in comparable amounts. Why not the USA?

Though we are not going to get far with this President, (he lied about Kyoto and other environmental issues), the world should get together and order the US to get it's act together. The USA should not be the one to ruin it for everyone just because they are obviously larger and therefore incurr more costs when turning to a pro-environmental stance. There are many ways to fund such ventures. General Electric makes huge profits for example and a tax could be put on such similar large profit making companies. 1 billion Dollars per company will not be missed.

Before I get flamed by such Americans, I like Boeing and United Airlines among other nice US brands and companies.


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
125 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDPrush From United States of America, joined May 2002, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6089 times:

I am not going to flame you in any way, there's no need to. But we won all the wars (Yes, I know about Vietnam, it was more like fighting with one arm tied behind our back) and we are the richest, most developed and the wealthiest country in the world, so we set the policy and not anyone else. I've been overseas, and eventhough the fuel/pollution policies in numerous places I've visited are a lot more stringent, the smog levels are quite higher due to more frequent use of low grade gas and/or diesel fuel. Also, inspection procedures are a lot more lax and thus the emissions from individual operators are substantially higher. American environment is pristine compared to that of Europe, S.America and Asia, so we do not feel the need to belong to any of the organizations that would dictate their policies to us, without firsthand taking care of what is going on in their own backyard.

Thank You


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5112 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6082 times:

Don't speak for all of us DPrush...Bush is in favor of drilling in Alaska, but not Florida (where his little toad of an election-stealing brother is Governor). Methinks if they found oil in the Grand Canyon that would be then end of that natural wonder...


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User currently offlineDPrush From United States of America, joined May 2002, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6072 times:

I am not speaking for all of us here, Thank You. Nor do I propose drilling in ANWR

User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Sorry, but do a little more research on the subject and have some balance. You need to realize that the U.S. is a very big country geographically. In some areas you would be amazed like our national Parks for example, and the total lack of polution. UNTOUCHABLE in comparison to other areas in the world.

And what of the U.K.and it's environment?

My suggestion is to write your PM and complain and stop whining about the U.S. and it's position.

This was just another bash U.S. posting. And I called you on it!

Before I get flamed by such Americans, I like Boeing and United Airlines among other nice US brands and companies.

Spare us will you.

Drill Anwar, and say NO to Kyoto Accords.

ClipperHawaii




"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6065 times:

As far as global warming is concerened, I have just 2 words. Prove it. You can't. Know why? I does not exist. You can stick global warming in your ozone hole. Not too far though! LOL

 Smile
CH








"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6063 times:

Singapore_Air,

If you are so concerned about the environment I'm sure you'll agree that it is a worldwide problem. In America, Kyoto is viewed as yet another attempt by foreigners to influence American policy. But, a compromise could be considered, I think. You want America to get cleaner - if you can find a way that does not penalize America's success, an agreement is possible. You have to understand that Americans believe that when other nations can't match American economic performance, the other nations will resort to government regulation under any guise in attempt to bring the US down to their level.

For example, if you could determine what it would cost to bring America and anywhere else up to the standards you desire and then divide that cost on an exact per capita basis to be shared by all people equally, that would I think be fine. You wouldn't even have to include the poorer countries in the tax - just figure out what it woud cost to sanitize the world and split this proportionately between Europe, America, Japan and perhaps a few other industrialized nations.

Something like this is the only compromise America would consider - a compromise where all nations are taxed or otherwise share the overall cost equally and in which no nation is singled out. Otherwise America may never get close to the standards you desire. If the environment is so important to you, the cost shouldn't matter. America believes costs DO matter and will not bear a greater proportionate cost than anyone else.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21471 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 6050 times:

Clipperhawaii: My suggestion is to write your PM and complain and stop whining about the U.S. and it's position.

We´ll do that the second you stop your own dirt at your borders and keep it to yourself. Honestly!  Big thumbs up



RogueTrader: For example, if you could determine what it would cost to bring America and anywhere else up to the standards you desire and then divide that cost on an exact per capita basis to be shared by all people equally, that would I think be fine.

Yeah. If someone doesn´t wash for a month, it´s really the other people´s responsibility to get him cleaned up. Really.  Insane


RogueTrader: Something like this is the only compromise America would consider - a compromise where all nations are taxed or otherwise share the overall cost equally and in which no nation is singled out.

Start washing more frequently and people won´t complain about your stench any more.


User currently offlineApathoid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days ago) and read 6041 times:

Don't speak of what you know not Ozark. ANWR is a wasteland. How do I know??? I lived in Barrow and Kotzebue. (get out a map) I have been to ANWR many times. I worked on the North Slope. I know first hand the ridiculous pains that the oil companies go through to prevent environmental damage. I would wager that the North Slope is cleaner than your house. I know that the precious Caribou couldn't care less what the oil companies do. In fact, if you leave your hangar doors open in Deadhorse, the caribou will come in the hangar in droves to get away from the mosquitoes. Everything your little Sierra Club Nazi buddies tell you about ANWR is a lie. Drill away. No one would ever notice you were there. Next time you want to spout off, don't tow the party line. Get a little info for yourself.

User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6008 times:

Not only is ANWR an icy wasteland, but the size of the actual drilling site when compared to the size of the entire state is equivalent to a postage stamp on a football field. Ozark, I'm guessing you want us to believe half the state would be dripping in soot killing everything precious. Give me a break. Did you know these sites actually ATTRACT wildlife?


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

ClipperHawaii: Your tone is rude and shows a lack of care for the environment. "My suggestion is to write your PM and complain and stop whining about the U.S. and it's position." - Why? To create a presentation about how it is possible to be successful and have the highest GDP growth of the G7 nations and be environmentally friendly?

RogueTrader: "You have to understand that Americans believe that when other nations can't match American economic performance, the other nations will resort to government regulation under any guise in attempt to bring the US down to their level." Such a belief is only harnessed through arrogance and inaccurate knowledge of the subject. Americans do not care about the environment if it costs them one cent.

"(First sentence, second main paragraph)" No it won't. It costs, and why spend on the environment when you can spend on bonds and stocks? In a sterotype, Americans would not like it as it costs.

"If the environment is so important to you, the cost shouldn't matter." A pity I can't say the same for the Bush administration. What did Clinton think of Kyoto? I can't remember.

"America believes costs DO matter and will not bear a greater proportionate cost than anyone else." What about any cost?
----

The point I'm making here is that there needs to be a change of mindset. Not everyone is open minded as Rogue Trader seems to be. The seemingly misuse of economic power is wrong. However, it is also pitiful for €uropean and other 'big' countries to sit back and fight a battle in vain.

If anything, Iraq should be a bargaining point for the US. Sure they can go it alone, but a few friends would make it a lot easier.

ClipperHawaii: "This was just another bash U.S. posting. And I called you on it!"

Spare us will you? Your selfishness and incapacity to open to reality will be futile for you



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5112 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6005 times:

What I DO know is that a designated National Refuge should remain as such. Once you start chipping away...it's a slippery slope. And why the f*ck hasn't anyone developed alternative sources of energy since the 70's oil crisis? Big Oil won't allow it...especially with a slimeball oil-grubbing Prez in the White House. I wouldn't be caught dead at the Sierra Clubhouse...
As for my household cleanliness...I let the cleaning lady worry about that.



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User currently offlineAerLingus From China, joined Mar 2000, 2371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6004 times:

The United States provides a HUGE amount of products to the global community. Automobiles, electronics software and hardware, industrial equipment, medical products of virtually all kinds, pulp and paper products, and a variety of other items.

The world's largest economy doesn't get that way by consuming it's own products. The world demands American products, so we deliver. We pollute because you buy our stuff.

Think about the American things you use before you complain about our pollution.



Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 6004 times:

Ozark, LMAO!!! You blame Bush for everything don't you. You're a comedy act, dude.

"And why the f*ck hasn't anyone developed alternative sources of energy since the 70's oil crisis"

Well, they have, big guy. Either its impractical, has other problems, or just simply isn't economically feasible to mass-produce to the middle class.

I know, I know....its all Bush's fault. He's soooooooooo dumb, yet has been running this energy conspiracy since the 70s right under our eyes. Too bad Clinton wasn't smart enough to figure it out and stop him when he was running things. heeheehee!!!



"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5992 times:

AerLingus, there are big export countries which are able to reduce the pollution...

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21471 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5992 times:

AerLingus: The world's largest economy doesn't get that way by consuming it's own products. The world demands American products, so we deliver. We pollute because you buy our stuff.

Wrong.

The USA have a massive trade deficit. They consume much more foreign products than they export.

Europe, on the other hand, has a significant trade surplus and still manages to clean up its act. At the expense of a part of its short-term growth, that much is true. But this will only become more expensive with any additional day of idle denial.


Ozark: And why the f*ck hasn't anyone developed alternative sources of energy since the 70's oil crisis

JetService: Well, they have, big guy. Either its impractical, has other problems, or just simply isn't economically feasible to mass-produce to the middle class.

Is that why european firms have become market leaders in this emerging field? Hmmmm...

Just think of the steel situation and extrapolate to other branches where some are innovating, and some are standing still...


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5112 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5984 times:

I can't blame Bush for everything...I'm sure he didn't have anything to do with the Kennedy assasination (maybe Dad did). And yes, GOP presidents as well as the 2 Democatic ones have sat on their butts while we send our citizens out to die for oil interests...my point being we've had 30 years to come up with alternative energy sources, hell it only took a decade from JFK saying "we'll put a man on the moon" until we actually did it. WHY? Because no one had a vested interest in us NOT putting a man on the moon (the fromer USSR notwithstanding). You think TexonShellaco wants to find a way to turn water in fuel? Sure they do....and we'll see GW marching in drag in a gay pride parade down the main street of Crawford Texas.


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User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5984 times:

The rest of the world makes me chuckle.

The only analogy I can think of is an 16 year old whippersnapper who upon getting his first kiss on a date giving unsolicitewd sexual advice to an old geezer, never mind the geezer having 8 kids.

Brief chronology of U.S. environmentalism:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
POLL DATA: ENVT. ONE OF 3 NATIONAL PROBLEMS:
1965 -- 17%
1970 -- 53%
EARTH DAY 1970
NEW MAINSTREAM GROUPS:
Environmental Defense Fund, 1967
League of Conservation Voters, 1970
Environmental Action, 1970
Sierra Club Legal Defense Fund, 1971
Natural Resources Defense Council, 1971
EMERGENCE OF BIPARTISAN CONGRESSIONAL PRO-ENVIRONMENTAL COALITION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Major Federal Environmental Legislation:
Wildlife and Endangered species
Migratory Bird Conservation Act, 1929
Fish & Wildlife Coordination Act, 1934
Endangered Species Preservation Act, 1966
Endangered Species Conservation Act, 1969
Marine Mammal Protection Act,1972
Endangered Species Act, 1973; Amds, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1982, 1984, 1988
Air
Air Quality Act, 1960, 1967
Clean Air Act, 1963; Amds, 1970, 1977, 1990,
Water
Water Pollution Act, 1948
Water Pollution Control Act (Amds), 1956
Water Quality Act, 1965
Clean Water Restoration Act, 1966
Water Quality Improvement Act, 1970
Federal Water Poll. Control Act (Amds) 1972
Safe Drinking Water Act, 1974
Clean Water Act, 1977
Federal Water Poll. Control Act (Amds) 1977
Solid & Hazardous wastes
Solid Waste Disposal Act, 1965
Resource Recovery Act, 1970
Resource Conservation and Recovery Act, 1976
Comprehensive Env. Response, Compensation & Liability Act (CERCLA), 1980
Hazardous and Solid Waste Amds, 1984
Superfund Amds and Reauthorization Act, 1986
Emergency Planning and Community Right to Know Act, 1986
Pesticides & Toxics
Federal Insecticide, Fungicide & Rodenticide Act (FIFRA), 1972; Amds 1988
Toxic Substances Control Act, 1976
Environmental Pesticide Control Act, 1978
Noise
Noise Control Act, 1972
Quiet Communities Act, 1978
Forests, Parks & Land Use
Multiple Use-Sustained Yield Act, 1960
Wilderness Act, 1964
Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act, 1971
Land Use Policy Act, 1974
Strip Mining Act, 1974
National Parks and Recreation Act, 1978
National Forest Management Act, 1976
Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act, 1977
Alaskan National Interest Lands Conservation Act, 1980

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
OzarkD9S: And why the f*ck hasn't anyone developed alternative sources of energy since the 70's oil crisis?

Well, you're anyone. Did you feel enough concern to become an engineer and pitch in to solve this problem?

OzarkD9S: Big Oil won't allow it...especially with a slimeball oil-grubbing Prez in the White House.

I was under the impression there were several presidents in office since 1974.

Singapore Air: China and India are also increasingly giving out global warming gases, however, their per capita emissions are far less than the USA's

This really raised my eyebrows, to suggest these two particular countries are more eco-friendly than the U.S.
I think this stat is very misleading. India and China have gargantuan populations which with this taken alone skews the statisitic. Industry could be filthy and still look good, per capita.
It is ridiculous data such as this which destroys any credibility of these eco groups and their agenda.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineAerLingus From China, joined Mar 2000, 2371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5965 times:

Klaus:

I have a feeling you're not taking into account the size of the American and European economies. The American economy is still larger by comparison and in terms of sheer volume still produces more products despite a deficit.

Furthermore, Europe is a continent. It is not a country (I didn't need to remind you of that, did I?). The EU is a group of member nations, not a superstate - not one nation. That being said, it's unfair to compare the trade deficits and surpluses of the two areas. Why? Because the United States is an independent nation that does not have the benefit of the strengths and shared prosperity of member nations. It's like apples and oranges.



Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1959 posts, RR: 33
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

The whole concept that humans can inadvertantly and significantly affect the global climate on a long-term basis is unbelievable. How many ICE AGES has this planet has been through before man ever invented the internal combustion engine? And yet we are concenred because average tempartues have gone up .1 degree over the past 50 years? Please spare us until there is solid evidence!

I'm all for advocating practical environmental concerns: Keeping water supplies clean, ensuring that our forests remain renewable, establishing plenty of parks, and yes, maintaining a reasonable level of air quality, but the whole global warming issue is just not a major concern. Please do not think we are not doing anything about air quality in the US. We have "ozone days" in major cities where certain rules take effect regarding lawnmowers, mass transit, etc.


User currently offlineAerLingus From China, joined Mar 2000, 2371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5959 times:

Another thing!
Singapore_Air:
You're not taking into account the numerous efforts the United States has undertaken to reduce industrial emissions in the past 20 years. We are still one of the leaders when it comes to new methods of industrial emissions reduction.

I supported the Kyoto Accords and I still do, but:
Your implication that the people of the United States are uncaring and ignorant in regard to environmental issues is something that I find absurd and in itself ignorant. The comments are economically discriminatory, nationalistic and bordering on...well...stupidity!



Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5112 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5954 times:

I stated that ALL presidents sat on their butts on this issue. Perhaps my passion for art circumvented my educatonal desire for a better world in terms of alternative energy sources, MY BAD! Perhaps you'ld like to fund my educational studies in this field...and pay my bills while I do...I'm afraid my areas of expertise preclude this, but hey, I'm willing to try.


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User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5940 times:

With great trepidation, I join the fray... only briefly.

It is a source of boundless amusement for an American to get chastised on environmental issues by a chap from the UK...

...when nearly every meaningful industrial pollution reduction technology and initiative originated in the USA.

I recognize that the member who started this thread spoke from his (or her) heart, but heartfelt beliefs founded on false premises are still false.



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineRogueTrader From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5939 times:

Klaus,

You said:

Yeah. If someone doesn??t wash for a month, it??s really the other people??s responsibility to get him cleaned up. Really.

My idea is about COMPROMISE. The US doesn't believe in the legitimacy of this proposed regulation - you do. The compromise is to split the cost: you will get what you want (a cleaner world), the US will get what it wants (no penalty for its size.) Your idea that America be forced to adopt a regulation it doesn't want AND be forced to enact and pay for a US policy created by non-Americans will never work. If the environment is really that important to you (which of course it is not), a compromise will be acceptable. It is in fact the only way America would accept Kyoto.

In reply to this statement:
The world demands American products, so we deliver. We pollute because you buy our stuff.

Klaus says:

Wrong.


No, Klaus, YOU are wrong. Your wishful thinking will not change the fact that the US is by far the largest exporter in the world. The net account deficit has no effect on who is the largest exporter. America is of of course the largest importer and exporter, just as it leads virtually every economic indicator. The strength of the dollar makes imports to the US cheap and US exports expensive. Still, American products are demanded far more worldwide than the products of any other country. 450 million Europeans or a billion Chinese produce less than 280 million Americans - this is a major fact Kyoto seeks to 'remedy'.

kind regards,

RogueTrader


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5938 times:

You have to understand that Americans believe that when other nations can't match American economic performance, the other nations will resort to government regulation under any guise in attempt to bring the US down to their level.

Home Run point, Rogue Trader. You're rising on my chart with a bullet these days, despite our past tussles.  Big thumbs up

Furthermore, Europe is a continent. It is not a country (I didn't need to remind you of that, did I?).

Don't worry, Aer Lingus-they're working real hard to make it one big, happy, fuzzy country.

An agreement like Kyoto-which Clinton proposed, I believe, as does Bush-is not good when it asks the American people to shoulder the burden of the costs for this agreement, while letting China off free and clear. That's not fair nor equitable. I do see it, like Rogue said, as an attempt by an envious and jealous world, to try to knock the U.S. economy and taxpayer down a few notches closer to them, by dictating to us what we should do. I always hear Euros complaining that they don't like the U.S. dictating to them. Well guess the hell what? We don't want YOU dictating enviormental policy to us, got it?

If the American people want to change the course of envoirmental policy, then let us take care of it-but don't dictate to us what/when/how/where/why we should do it.

Methinks Europe and the rest of the world is getting a little too big for it's britches these days.  Smile


25 Alpha 1 : Ooops, my bad: I said "Kyoto, which Clinton proposed, I think..." I meant to say "which Clinton opposed, I think..." Sorry 'bout that.
26 174thfwff : Reading this thread reminded me that I needed to go fill up my Ford Excursion and my Yukon XL.... -174th
27 Post contains images Mx5_boy : Dprush says: """I am not going to flame you in any way, there's no need to. But we won all the wars (Yes, I know about Vietnam, it was more like fight
28 Alpha 1 : Does that include the fast food wrappers that I see EVERYWHERE that pollute our cities? The fast food wrappers aren't polluting-it's the people in you
29 Pacific : Why is China and other developing countries exempt from Kyoto? Because the population developing countries like China don't have the money like the US
30 Post contains images Mx5_boy : Alpha1, Your absolutely right but the ultimate source of the majority of these wrappers has "Made in the USA" on them. Trust me, by far 90% of visible
31 Alpha 1 : Because the population developing countries like China don't have the money like the USA to adopt expensive clean technology.... So we just lop the co
32 Alpha 1 : Your absolutely right but the ultimate source of the majority of these wrappers has "Made in the USA" on them. Irrelvant. If your people disposed of t
33 Mx5_boy : Alpha1, Do you have any idea why so many people drop this particular trash? It's baffling. I wonder if anyone notices the same phenonema anywhere else
34 B757300 : Amazing that so many people want to shift blame on the United States for things totally out of our control. I still am waiting for some idiot to try a
35 Alpha 1 : Nice dodge of the question, Mx_5boy. Again, you can't blame the U.S. because people in other countries throw things on the street that say "Made in th
36 Mx5_boy : Alpha1, What about the deliberate dumping and mixing of GM / Non GM crop seeds to farmers around the planet from some of your multinationals? Thats en
37 Pacific : So I guess we wait for some poor guy earning $700 a year to increase his income first so that they can afford it....or will some islands in the Pacifi
38 Alpha 1 : The necessity to cut emissions under Kyoto would also increase innovation and research in lower-cost clean energy which can then be applied to the dev
39 Pacific : Once the developing nations are richer and can afford clean energy, they have to start paying themselves to cut emissions. Pacific
40 Alpha 1 : Once the developing nations are richer and can afford clean energy, they have to start paying themselves to cut emissions. But until then, you want it
41 Pacific : Yep exactly, because New York may already be flooded by the time the 10billion people in the wold can afford the clean technology, or there may be a w
42 Alpha 1 : You may not be but I'd be willing to pay extra for environmental protection once I'm in the world of work and can afford it. Fine, go ahead and pay YO
43 Pacific : The economic damage from the flooding of major cities far outweighs the costs of the Kyoto protocol. So why can't the whole world do it now? Because t
44 Post contains images JetService : Pacific, I don't think you're gonna convince Alpha 1 to pick up the tab. LOL! Besides, he & I are hooking up to fly to Sydney and clean up those darn
45 RayChuang : I hate to break out bad news, but the pollution issues in the USA has nothing compared to the pollution problems in the lesser-developed world. Look a
46 Brianhames : I agree with ClipperHawaii reguarding Global Warming, proove it. Not a shred of evidence exists...
47 Apathoid : Oh my god alpha....let it never happen again....but I agree with every word you have said on this thread...wow...
48 Singapore_Air : Alpha 1 is the personification that the Americans do not want to pay once cent, whether cost is divided equally or not. It is stupid that such thought
49 Mx5_boy : Jetservice, Whilst I was being predictable with my original post, many councils here in Australia are trying to work out why this seems to be such pro
50 L-188 : Getting back to ANWR. The portion that drilling is proposed for, is known as the 1002 area. It was set aside for future oil development as part of the
51 Post contains images KAL_LM : It should be the responsibility of a nation that consumes 25% or more of the world's resources should at least take an active leadership role in helpi
52 RogueTrader : Tom, The problem is that Americans don't agree with your view of what constitutes a threat to the environment. Should America be allowed to form its o
53 Post contains images GKirk : I think what Dprush tried to say initially was that: "We Americans are better than anyone else!" Well, thats what it sounded like to me. But we won al
54 Post contains images Alpha 1 : Alpha1, What about the deliberate dumping and mixing of GM / Non GM crop seeds to farmers around the planet from some of your multinationals? Thats en
55 Mx5_boy : Alpha1, Not ducking the subject mate. Macca wrappers polluting our cities are a problem and why is that? You can't answer the question when I proposed
56 Post contains images Alpha 1 : "American throwaway society". Which in itself is world pollution. Bullshit. Don't blame the U.S. because your people can't pick up after themselves!!
57 NUAir : It is impossible for you to generalize the US on a subject like emissions and pollution because we have 50 states with 50 different policies. Californ
58 KAL_LM : Rogue Trader...in a way that is what I was getting at. But as a world leader, we should lead, not whine about it. I agree, everyone should bear the bu
59 RayChuang : NUAir, I wonder have you ever experienced the horrible air pollution that plagued the Los Angeles area for many years. With modern exhaust emission co
60 Klaus : RogueTrader: My idea is about COMPROMISE. The US doesn't believe in the legitimacy of this proposed regulation - you do. The legitimacy of Kyoto comes
61 Alpha 1 : And whoever is withdrawing from this shared account owes to take his proportional share of the created burden as well. Plain and simple responsibility
62 Alpha 1 : Damn, forgot to finish with the rest of Klaus's post! Clean up your act and we´ll all be happy. We're not here to make you happy, Klaus. Get off our
63 Blink182 : Excuse my ignorance for not having read many of the above posts, but World News Tonight yesterday reported that Bush is going to allow loggers to cut
64 Pacific : Alpha, From my understanding, Kyoto only requires a country to cut its own emissions, not another country's. Let's say if the UK adopts Kyoto, it's on
65 LMP737 : I always chuckle when I read these posts. The same countries that whine about the US and pollution are the same ones that import luxury cars, SUV's, a
66 JetService : "Today he is going to cut down all the trees. Tomorrow? The shrubbery and plants." Blink, Bush's proposal calls for cutting only overgrown dense areas
67 AerLingus : Blink182: If you listened you would have heard that only SOME of the trees are going to be cut down. If trees are allowed to grow freely, then there i
68 JetService : Not only that, an overgrown forest canopy stiffles a healthy forest floor. Everthing else gets choked out and ground dwelling creatures have a problem
69 Post contains images NUAir : Maybe Bush can drain all the oceans to end water pollution!! Maybe our current administration hasn't been the best for the environment but they still
70 LMP737 : Actually those in Europe can partly thank enviornmetalists in the US over the emissions of "greenhouse gases". If my memory serves me correctly 40% of
71 LMP737 : Klaus: Where do you get your information about the "Kenny Boy" connection controlling US policy? Do you get it from some 30 second soundbite on the ne
72 Post contains links Gaut : First I want to say that USA is no more the n°1 economical power. This is a comparison between Japan-Euro Zone (EU excluding UK, Denmark and Sweden)
73 LMP737 : Gaut: Those armaments you speak of kept the Warsaw Pact at bay for 40 years. To top it off since the US was spending an incredible amount of money on
74 Singapore_Air : Intriguing.... Alpha 1: " Americans-myself included-have not problem with payingfor enviornmental changes in OUR country. But those changes must be so
75 LOT767-300ER : "We're not here to make you happy, Klaus. Get off our backs about this aboriton called Kyoto, and let us handle our envoirnment as we see fit, got it?
76 Mx5_boy : If We Have No Forests, We Can Have No Forest Fires! """President Bush will ask Congress to relax environmental laws so the timber industry can step up
77 Post contains links Mx5_boy : http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/story.jsp?story=325698 "Michael Meacher reignited the row over genetically modified crops yesterday, admitt
78 RogueTrader : Gaut, You are quite wrong: the United States alone is significantly larger in terms of GDP than the entirety of the EU, the 'EuroZone' or any of the m
79 Pacific : Why does the US have to bail out other countries by signing Kyoto? They only have to reduce within its own borders! China's emissions are actually goi
80 Post contains images Alpha 1 : Alpha, From my understanding, Kyoto only requires a country to cut its own emissions, not another country's. Let's say if the UK adopts Kyoto, it's on
81 Post contains links 747-451 : The US the biggest output of greenhouse gasses...I think not. Check your sources and your statistics. The US has had pollution controls on its cars, f
82 Singapore_Air : A_1: "And what RIGHT do you have to insist the U.S. sign a treaty it doesn't believe in? What RIGHT to you have to shove this treaty down our colletiv
83 RogueTrader : Singapore_Air says: This is in your best interest, you just don't want to spend a single cent on it. If any other nation ever achieves what the US has
84 Post contains images OO-AOG : Luckily for our children's health, more and more countries are fighting for our environment. If ever some other countries could follow us in this path
85 Alpha 1 : Oh yeah, saving the earth isn't in your best interest is it? This treaty is NOT about saving the earth-it was about soaking the U.S. taxpayers while l
86 Singapore_Air : "This treaty is NOT about saving the earth" Oh really 'A_1'. Then what do you think it's about? Telling Americans to be more environmental so that the
87 Alpha 1 : Ok, you tell ME, Singapore_Air, why the world has the RIGHT to tell the U.S. what to do? You're one of the complainers on here about the U.S. telling
88 OO-AOG : Alpha1, aren't you a little bit paranoiac here? People DO care about environment, even if that cost a lot of money. Saving the Earth is more important
89 B757300 : Everything from Kyoto to this new summit have nothing to do with saving the environment or reducing pollution. Those are just to covers for the anti-U
90 Apathoid : I would have to agree with B757 here. The nice thing about wrapping an economically destructive package like this in the cloak of environmentalism is
91 Alpha 1 : OO-AOG. Kyoto will do NOTHING to save the earth, especially if it exempts developing economic countries like China. Developing economic countries put
92 Post contains images Singapore_Air : All this talk about anti-USA crap is pitiful. This has nothing to do with anti Americanism. The thread starter is not anti American anyway. Stop runni
93 Gaut : RogueTrader, I don't know who's right but anyway, as I said in my previous reply, this is not the most important thing in this topic, the future of th
94 OO-AOG : Kyoto will do NOTHING to save the earth Com'on Alpha1, you don't want to approve the treaty, fine with me, but don't say b***t please. We need to do s
95 Apathoid : No one has yet provent that global warming is a threat much less real...
96 Post contains links Gaut : No one has yet provent that global warming is a threat much less real... No one has yet proved that god exist but the global warming is real http://ww
97 Post contains links 747-451 : You Said: "What about the deliberate dumping and mixing of GM / Non GM crop seeds to farmers around the planet from some of your multinationals? Thats
98 FDXmech : Why does McDonalds encourage people to drop their trash in the streets compared to other fast food / take away food places? They must have some specia
99 Post contains images 747-451 : Singapore-air said: "Alpha 1 is the personification that the Americans do not want to pay once cent, whether cost is divided equally or not. It is stu
100 Singapore_Air : 747-451 said: "However, paying someone else's "bill" is assinine" I never knew the Kyoto treaty meant pouring money into €urope so we could clean up
101 Gaut : 747-451 said: "yes the US puts out a lot of smoke compared to lets say Germany because of size. However PERCAPITA we are cleaner" Here are some exampl
102 Alpha 1 : USA: 20.1 Germany:10.2 Gaut, what are the populations of Germany and the U.S., then look at those stats, ok?
103 Scorpio : Alpha 1, Gaut, what are the populations of Germany and the U.S., then look at those stats, ok? What part of 'per capita' is it you don't understand?
104 Clipperhawaii : For all this insistent whining...There will still be no U.S. signature on a document that says Kyoto. That may burn some of you but you still wont cha
105 747-451 : Perhaps you should learn to be capable of abstract thought... you said: "I never knew the Kyoto treaty meant pouring money into €urope so we could c
106 Post contains images Singapore_Air : "Perhaps you should learn to be capable of abstract thought..." No ---- ""...everytime someone wants a hand out they come to the US" Latin America is
107 Gaut : 747-451, You said that, per capita, US are cleaner. It's false Now you said that no country on earth has the comprehensive legislation in place to reg
108 Gaut : Clipperhawaii What's this list of countries?? Gaut
109 Singapore_Air : ClipperHawaii, How can you imply that East Timor and Eritrea are perfect countries?
110 Donder10 : Developing alternate power sources would also be in the U.S.'s favour(certainly not the oil sector's-thats another matter)as the Middle East situation
111 Alpha 1 : Alpha1, Those figures are PER CAPITA!!! Ok, gotcha. I misread it. My apologies.
112 Post contains links and images 747-451 : SA paraphrases: "... Perhaps you should learn to be capable of abstract thought..." No I guess then you are not capable of interpreting what you read
113 Singapore_Air : "What about per capita amounts?" Yes, what about per capita amounts? "t is indicitive of our society's concern for the environment now and for the fur
114 Post contains images Clipperhawaii : Well I guess we can all now say that the original poster of this topic has been shown the proverbial door in regards to his "position." If you could c
115 747-451 : A closed door and a closed mind as well! Ha!
116 Post contains images 747-451 : You Say: "What about per capita amounts?" Yes, what about per capita amounts?" And I repeat once agian...in case you missed it... "Yes, Kyoto is unfai
117 Mx5_boy : Contamination of Mexican Maize Genetic Pollution in Mexico's Center of Maize Diversity (Oakland, CA)óAccording to a new report, Genetic Pollution in
118 Post contains links 747-451 : I agree that contamination is a major issue, however, I don't see what this has to do with the US for several reasons, namely why aren't their health/
119 Singapore_Air : Per capita 'taxation' is the only way in which to calculate how much a country should spend. More importantly, per capita 'taxation' is not involved i
120 747-451 : you said: "I do not understand how you people do not think that global warming is occurring because of the vast increase in human pollution, and that
121 Singapore_Air : "Forget it, you have lost." It's arrogant of you to think it as a fight between you and me. The United States' President is not attending the world su
122 Post contains links Singapore_Air : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/world/2002/earth_summit/ ---- "The US pollutes more, absolutely and per head, than any other country (it also prod
123 FDXmech : Total CO2 emissions: 5,410 (million metric tons per year) Emissions per capita: 20.1 Percentage of CO2 emissions: 24% Percentage of world population:
124 FDXmech : Also, I have difficulty, sometimes, basing a countries enviro friendliness on a per capita basis of population. Especially when certain countries are
125 LufthansaUSA : Singapore_Air, are you one of those kids who uses big words to try and act cool and adult? Because you seem to write an awful lot using lots of impres
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