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A Dangerous Liaison: Israel And US (C4 Sat 8pm)  
User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

This looks interesting!  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

Professor Jacqueline Rose, herself a British Jew, travels to Israel, the West Bank and the United States to examine the barriers to a peace settlement and test her own theory: that the aggressive vision that can be traced back to the founders of the State of Israel makes it impossible for their government to initiate peace.

Channel 4, UK, 20.00 on Saturday 24 Aug.

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

 Sleepy

User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29805 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (12 years 2 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Isreal and US  Confused


It sounds like the title to some sort of sit-com about a bunch of roommates.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (12 years 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1618 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Yeah i'll watch it, should be interesting.

Arsenal@LHR



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

I didnt see the program since I went out, as i do on a saturday night...however i look forward to reading the reviews of the program. None of what SAS23 says was discussed is new to me. Im sure professor rose didnt lower herself to saying that ariel sharon was correct in saying that its israel who controls the usa. Sharon says things for internal consumption, as we can see by the gulf war and many other cases, the usa acts in its own interests first before its allies.

Im sure also that professor rose wouldnt have blindly believed palestinian propaganada regarding jenin, especially since human rights watch and amensty international both concluded that no massacre took place.

As for Jerry Falwell, well im lothed to think that hes in control of the usa.

Its an interesting topic, however while thankful for sas23 making people aware of this topic, im shocked that he hasnt posted on a thread that discusses the issues,such as The UKs policy towards israel-palestine, as started by ryanb.That thread is discussing things in a reasoned manner, this thread, i cant help but think is an avenue to attack israel. As i said as i havent seen the program i cant be sure that everything sas23 has stated was actually mentioned in the program, he is very goof at spinning.

Regarding the bombing of the king david hotel, a program on discovery(uk) at nine on wednesday discusses the age of terror we live in, it starts with the bombing and killing of 54 civilains by Begin (though the attack was focused on the british military) who was unrepentant.The uk pulled out, terrorists have seen this and think its the way to go.Im sure its going to be an insightful program.

for more insights can i suggest people turn into bbc world service now and again?



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1584 times:

Well it was a pretty interesting programme, not a polemic, and not totally dumbed-down Fox style.

But the only real disturbing revelation is of the likes of Jerry Falwell having access to a US President not known for his knowledge of the world. Hell, it's bad enough he's even on speaking terms with Bush!
(This is the sort of thing that disturbs America's allies, loony far-right religious fundamentalism is like something from outer space to the rest of the Western world-thankfully).
Assuming Falwell wasn't exaggerating of course, but maybe time for Hustler to run those spoof Campari ads again!

Also, the Palestinians interviewed, living in abject poverty and restrictions on normal everyday activities, blame the US (pointing out M-60 tanks, M-16 rifles and F-16's) even more even than Israel, as they know that the sole superpower is the only nation with real leverage on Israel.
America could be about to encounter a whole new group of terrorists targeting them, after all the IRA used to say that 'one bomb in London is worth ten in Belfast'.

Interesting too was the claim that many in the US identify with Israel's 'pioneer sprit', (the real hardcore Israeli settlers interviewed were very recently US citizens), but does that make the Palestinians the new American Indians?

In conclusion, the programme was far from an anti-Israeli rant, the writer/presenter is a British citizen of the Jewish faith, who's grandparents came from Poland.
Both sides got their say, despite the film being a personal project of the presenter.


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

The most interesting thing for me was the rabid support of Israel by Tom de Lay, the Majority Speaker and close friend of Bush. Have a listen to the BBC programme I linked to and you'll hear him at the end saying that "there are no occupied territories".

The 'radical right' Christian fundamentalists are a scary bunch that are - and have been proven to be - as capable of terrorism as the radical Muslims or Jews.

The US needs to wake up and address this very real danger urgently ... before the next Oklahoma City.


User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1558 times:

SAS,
How come you never bitch about the treatment Palestinians receive from other Arab countries?



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

SAS -....and have been proven to be - as capable of terrorism as the radical Muslims or Jews.

Show me a Christian fundamentalist organization similar to al Qaeda, supported by the US government, whose mission is to kill as many Muslim civilians as possible. Because that is what your darling "radical Muslim" terrorists are doing, with financial backing from major middle Eastern governments. Also bear in mind that on Sept. 11, President Bush warned Americans not to take their anger out on Arabs, that only a small percentage of them are terrorists. Does this sound like a terrorist talking?

The Oklahoma bombing to which you refer was the work of a tiny, obscure deranged group, not a mainstream publicly supported organization. And I didn't see their supporters cheering in the streets afterward!

As much as I dislike fundamentalist Christian rhetoric, I have yet to see any group expressing the level of hatred and desire to kill as I see in the Muslim groups. It ain't even in the same ballpark, SAS23. Read the al Qaeda members' manual - you may be surprised to see your heroes are plotting your murder, too.

Pete


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1959 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1537 times:

The only people this liason is dangerous to are arab terrorist scumbags. The more scared they are the better!

User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Alpha 1 - how on earth do you think that a post alerting UK based A.net members to a very interesting-sounding documentary ... produced and presented by a Jew, nogal, could possibly be an "anti-Israel post"? Only one person is paranoid around here, dear boy ... and that's you!  Big grin

Well, I watched it and it was extremely interesting. I learnt a lot I wasn't
previously aware of - such as the fact that one of the foundation-stones of
Zionism is the "wall of steel", whereby the goal is to make Israel an
enthnically clean territory containing only Jews. Muslims and even Christians
are not welcome in this Jewish paradise. Its policy towards its neighbours and
the Palestinians is one of "pre-emptive attack" as was demonstrated so
effectively in 1967 and again in 1982.

Also, modern terrorism was fathered by the Zionist terror groups in the run up
to the creation of the State of Israel. The Stern Gang, Haganagh and Irgun -
founded by Menachim Begin (subsequently an Israeli Premier) - were typical of
those. Irgun was responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel in
Jerusalem in 1946 - an outrage which killed 91, including 54 civillians
unconnected to the British authorities.

Israel's support from the US only really started in 1967, on the basis of "the
enemy of my enemy is my friend" as the Soviets backed much of the Arab world;
and has grown from there contributed in very large part due to the Christian
Fundamentalist right, led by Jerry Falwell. No dount Jerry will be rather
concerned to hear that the Zionist plan doesn't include him or his congregants
... but then, given that the responsibility for Christ's crucifiction rests
with the Jews, he shouldn't be surprised, either!   src="/discussions/graphics/rolleyes.gif" ALT="Insane">

The effectiveness of the Israeli PR and lobby machine was amazing to watch in
action. According to Professor Rose, Americans tend to identify more with the
Jews than with the Arabs because "they are like us" and the use of
sophisticated US born and/or educated Jews as spokesmen ... people like Binjamin Netanyahu, who could quite easily be a US Republican or even President. Contrast that with the image of the unshaven Arafat, in military fatigues and keffiyeh. A former Israeli Ambassador to the US pointed out that most ambassadors would be likely to meet the US president twice during their posting to Washington - whereas the Israeli Ambassador would meet him on average once a week. As Ariel Sharon is on the record as saying, it is truly Israel that calls the shots on US policy in the Middle East ... not the US Administration.

Israel is not only the largest recipient anywhere in the world of US largesse -
nearly US$100 billion - but it's the only country where the US does not try to
use it's financial clout to influence domestic or foreign policy. Nor does it
complain about the blatant abuses of human rights carried out by successive
Israeli governments - against Jews as well as Palestinians.

Internal opposition from Jews to their government only really started in 1982
when Israel carried out a full-scale invasion of Lebanon - what was to become
Israel's Vietnam. Prior to then, Israelis had justified their government's
actions on the basis that they were the little David against the might of the
Arab Goliath. The massacres of hundreds of civilians - men, women and children - in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps (masterminded by current Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon) created the first serious opposition demonstrations which were brutally broken up, leading to the detention without trial, 'deaths in custody' and outright 'disappearances' of opposition leaders and anyone else who disagreed with them. One of those was Mordechai Vanunu, who had been working on the Israeli nuclear weapon programme at Dimona, in the Negev desert who was abducted by the Mossad after he told the London Sunday Times some of what was going on at Dimona. Vanunu's abduction and subsequent imprisonment (for 18 years) was ordered by former Israeli premier, Shimon Perez.

Jerry Falwell admitted that it was his intervention that caused a change of tack recently with President Bush after the attacks on Jenin by the Israelis.
Initially, Bush came in with a hardline approach, but Falwell told him that his
Christian evangelists supported Israel against the Palestinians, due largely to
their blind adherence to everything in the Bible. Listen to a BBC Assignment
report on the links between right wing Christian fundamentalists and the Zionist
lobby group here: http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0202.html

As Professor Rose concluded: "America's blind defence of Israel has led to the
loss of opportunities for the creation of a lasting peace in the Middle East."

There's another programme on tonight that looks good - Promises, Channel 4 at 19.45 - it's a documentary looking at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and prospects for peace, as seen through the eyes of children on both sides.


User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1516 times:

"but then, given that the responsibility for Christ's crucifiction rests
with the Jews, he shouldn't be surprised, either!"


That's a blantant lie that has become responsible for much persecution and hatred of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years. I'll explain why after I finish fuming at you.


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1501 times:

For more information on A Dangerous Liaison and Promises - as well as questions about the situation in the Middle East - look here: http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/I/israel/index.html

User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 2 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1506 times:

First, the issues raised by A Dangerous Liaison

http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/I/israel/dangerous2.html (The Problem):

Rose argues that amongst the founders of the state of Israel were those who believed that the state could only survive if it was aggressive in its own defence and were blind to the humanity of the Palestinians they lived amongst.

Today, amongst the many views battling for control in Israel it is that aggressive vision that she thinks is the barrier to an Israeli led peace settlement.

With the death toll on both sides rising by the day and the situation more hopeless than it has been for many years, she argues that the one country with the power and influence to force the warring parties to stop, America, is achieving nothing.

The current administrations in each country leave no room for negotiation and Professor Rose argues that America is ignoring more creative voices in Israel today and embracing the extreme strands of Israeli thought and practice they should most reject.

http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/I/israel/dangerous3.html (The USA)

Rose visits New York and Washington and discovers that surprisingly under President Bush, the majority of support for Israel comes not from a Jewish community but from ‘Middle-America’s’ religious conservatives.

A 70 million strong community that represents a powerful voting block in the American electorate.

Increasingly Israel’s interests now coincide with those of Christian Fundamentalists led by Evangelical leaders such as Rev Jerry Falwell, who view Israel as the land of “God’s own people” and its security is their top priority.

In an interview, Falwell reinforced his abiding support of Israel. He mentions letters written to President Bush expressing their concern at Bush’s attempt to mediate the violence in Jenin earlier this year.

Falwell says that more and more Israelis are starting to realise that “America’s Bible-belt is Israel’s safety belt,” and that the influence the Evangelists can bring to bear upon the White House is significant.

Dangerous Liaisons is a raw insight into the various aspects of the chain that join Israel and America together so tightly. A link that unfortunately also binds in the intractable problems of the Palestinian people and demands the question: While one part of the it suffers an historic injustice, can the rest of the chain ever be wholly at peace?

Rose continues to work and lecture on the subject in the UK and abroad. She is currently preparing to deliver the 2003 Christian Gauss seminars at Princeton University, on ‘The Question of Zion’.

===

I watched the Promises programme and it was excellent ... holding out hope that as long as there is communication between Israelis and Palestinians then there can be a peaceful solution.

Interestingly, it was the Palestinian children who were the most emotionally connected with their Israeli guests - and some of the Israeli kids who felt that whilst contact is a good idea, they "would not do it". Clearly, the brainwashing that Professor Rose talked about - the Walls of Steel - are alive and well in the religious community in Israel.

I was also interested to see that the non-religious Israeli kids wanted nothing to do with the religious Jews - in fact they were frightened of them - when the programme-maker (a Jew) took them to the Wailing Wall.

More about it here: http://www.channel4.com/news/microsites/I/israel/promises1.html


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (12 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1485 times:

Interestingly, it was the Palestinian children who were the most emotionally connected with their Israeli guests - and some of the Israeli kids who felt that whilst contact is a good idea, they "would not do it". Clearly, the brainwashing that Professor Rose talked about - the Walls of Steel - are alive and well in the religious community in Israel.

I found this comment particularly interesting. A few weeks ago CNN did some interviews of Jewish teenage kids, specifically from various settlements, and their views were very shocking, bordering the ethnic purity ideals perpetuated by the Nazis. They stated that peace with Palestinians was not possible, and that Israel was wasting its time. Many stated that Palestinians should not be allowed in Israel period, and that they should keep both races separate. The kids did not wish to see any Palestinian in their communities, as that would bring down the quality of life. I can't remember their precise comments, but I remember being very shocked and appalled and wondering what type of environment would breed such misguided thoughts.


User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

Hepkat - that's exactly what a lot of the Israeli (especially the religious) kids said on here as well. Both the Israeli and Palestinian kids argued the case that they were living on "their" land and they should not be forced out of it and were generally hostile towards the other side. The only two Israeli kids that were prepared to meet with the Palestinian kids were non-religious twins (the ones that were previously frightened by the religious (Hassidic) Jews at the Wailing Wall) - there was some trepidation on their part but very soon they were having a great time with the Palestinian kids.

Don't forget that the Orthodox Jews have views on racial purity that would make Himmler happy - if an Orthodox Jew were ever to marry outside the faith then they would be dead to their family.

In the [i]Promises[/i] programme, the Orthodox boy was saying how he hoped to join the army and kill Palestinians; saying that he wanted to become the first religious Commander in Chief of the IDF. I was interested to see that although he shook hands with the programme maker, his younger sister (aged 7 or so) refused to do so because it "would not be modest".


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (12 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

If you saw a documentary about Austrian neo-nazis would you also make comments like "wondering what type of environment would breed such misguided thoughts"?

"his younger sister (aged 7 or so) refused to do so because it "would not be modest""

Being a religious whacko in training, she would probably not consider any contact with males outside her family to be "modest".  Big grin


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineSAS23 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

LY744 - I thought that might possibly be the case. Thanks.

User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (12 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

does everyone here agree with the UK position regarding israel and palestine?
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/270651/



It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (12 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1432 times:

If you saw a documentary about Austrian neo-nazis would you also make comments like "wondering what type of environment would breed such misguided thoughts"?

Yes.


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