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More, Ahem, Cooperation From An "Ally"  
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020831/ap_on_re_eu/attacks_germany_2

Speaks for itself, I think. Shows once again how soft Europe is becoming on the fight against terrorism, or in helping an ally. God forbid the U.S. should execute a man who may have helped commit mass murder, right?

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2826 times:

A letter explaining the long-standing German position (on the death penalty) had been sent to U.S. authorities ....

Long-standing, eh? My mother remembers a time when the German position on the death penalty was somewhat - ahem - different.

Sorry, just couldn't resist. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Pete


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2819 times:

The Germans whine about Dresden...well what about Warsaw!?

Some ally. They must still be pissed at the fact that their "1000 year reich" was nothing but a pipe dream!

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2815 times:

Restraint is needed now more than ever before. The last thing humanity needs is for the US to go kill-crazy.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2814 times:

Restraint is needed now more than ever before. The last thing humanity needs is for the US to go kill-crazy.

This is true. That is why the evidence is demanded. Wouldn't it be saner for Germany to provide evidence that might actually clear this man?

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2793 times:

Perhaps, but is that evidence even needed? As I understood it, Moussaoui was guilty before the trial even started. And he certainly hasn't been helping himself lately.

On a related note, I think those comments about Germany's unfortunate past are uncalled for. The Germany of 1939 is not the same as the Germany of 2002, they just share a name.



Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Perhaps, but is that evidence even needed? As I understood it, Moussaoui was guilty before the trial even started. And he certainly hasn't been helping himself lately.

Nevertheless, even this terrorist pig has a right to a trial in which all evidence is presented. There is a chance that it might clear him (fat chance but his conviction will leave a reasonable doubt)

As for the Germany comments, I stick by them.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers


User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2779 times:

Speaks for itself, I think. Shows once again how soft Europe is becoming on the fight against terrorism, or in helping an ally. God forbid the U.S. should execute a man who may have helped commit mass murder, right?

Took the words out of my mouth, literally, I almost said the exact same thing myself!  Big thumbs up



-NWA742


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Think of it in terms of checks and balences. If Europe won't question us, who will? A true ally will tell you when they think you are wrong; only a slutty ally agrees with you 100% of the time.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

A true ally will tell you when they think you are wrong; only a slutty ally agrees with you 100% of the time.

A true ally will back you after 3000 of your people have been murdered, and one of the people who may have been behind it may face the death penalty, instead of piously hiding behind their own fears.


User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

A true ally will back you after 3000 of your people have been murdered, and one of the people who may have been behind it may face the death penalty, instead of piously hiding behind their own fears.

Abosolutley... but I don' think the US really needs this evidence to cnvict and execute him...


User currently offlineAviatsiya.ru From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

This has been covered 100 times before.

Fully support Germany and its stand against extraditing people who may face the death penalty.

The Yanks can always guarantee this person won't face the death penalty, and then watch the guy be extradited with no qualms.

And Alpha 1...talk of screwing over allies, care to ask some of my family, or many of the other farmers down here who are buttfucked everyday by Yankee allies???


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

A true ally will back you after 3000 of your people have been murdered

So... if we wanted to kill all first born males in the world, you would expect Germany to support us, because of the terrorist attacks? Where exactly do we draw the line in Alpha 1-world?


who are buttfucked everyday by Yankee allies???

Well, I never thought I'd hear you say that in a derogatory way!  Laugh out loud



Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineAviatsiya.ru From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

There's a first time for everything Nutsy  Wink/being sarcastic

User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2733 times:

The Yanks can always guarantee this person won't face the death penalty, and then watch the guy be extradited with no qualms.

Umm, hate to break it to you... we already have the guy in US custody. All we wanted was a bit of evidence. Oh, and I think he deserved the death penalty. I think Europe's morals would differ greatl today if not for the fear Hitler left them with... the fear of a reapeat.


User currently offlineAviatsiya.ru From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Well I support Germany in not handing over any evidence.

Hitler didn't leave Europe with the fear of a repeat, but the morality in the respect of human life, no matter what the circumstances.

Anyways guys, sorry to interrupt. Keep on bitching.


User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Attention, Europe: America is now fighting for its freedom — the same battle we have aided Europe and Germany in for years — and when we are fighting for our freedom there is only one thing for Germany to say: How can we help? Period.

tnnh


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13256 posts, RR: 77
Reply 17, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2713 times:

Germany offered 4000 mountain warfare troops for Afghanistan, which the US chose not to use, apart from a few special ops and support personnel.
(Better to use those oh so reliable Afghan fighters).
No question on their anti-terrorist credentials.
Anyway, this guy being locked up for life in a US prison is far more punishment than execution, he was supposed to be the 20th highjacker remember.



User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13256 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Germany recently arrested what is thought to be a leading light in the planning of 11th September.
Which the US has not managed to do in Afghanistan, while the camps there needed to be taken out fighting terrorism is largely an intelligence/police operation.


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

All states in the EU have laws forbidding capital punishment, extraditing a fugitive who might face capital punishment or assisting in capital punishment in any way. That's the fact and nothing anyone do can change this law. The U.S. has its laws, the EU has theirs. You can't expect the EU to change their laws at the United States' pleasure.

That comment about Germany was completely uncalled for. Germany today is not the same Germany of yesterday. It is one of the most civilized countries I've ever visited, ruled by law and order. You can't continue to hold Germans of today responsible for what happened over 60 years ago. To me, that's resorting to cheap shots out of a lack of anything substantial to back up accusations.

The US will simply have to accept and respect Germany's laws, just as it demands other countries to respect its.


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Attention, Europe: America is now fighting for its freedom

Yeah, I can almost see the Afghan transports on the horizon.  Insane


Anyway, this guy being locked up for life in a US prison is far more punishment than execution

Yes, I agree. Life in prison is a much worse punishment.


You can't continue to hold Germans of today responsible for what happened over 60 years ago.

Kind of like blaming Italy for Rome's persecution of the Christians, huh?

See, it's just as stupid when you guys say it.



Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineB737-700 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Just to let you know one more point, it is against German law to hand over the information when there is a high risk of the guy getting the death penalty.
So that might explain something here.


User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

The death penalty is one of the most emotive issues in the world, no truly religious person can justify support of the death penalty, particularly during issues where emotion appears to overrule intelligence.

They have every right to ask this question and America has every right to decline.




VH-ADG


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

U're right Alpha! These germans ought to show u guys some gratitude no? After all U liberated them from those *evil* Nazi's right?

Europe should really learn to kiss American butt more often. How can they forget the enormous help America provided in WW2? If it werent for you....!

Just my 2 cents.

Roy.


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (12 years 4 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Hepkat sait it perfectly. The german constitution fordbids the death penalty or extradition of suspects who might face the death penalty. They have to act according to their laws and you really can not expect to change the law just for the US. Would the US do that? I really dont think so.

Tom


25 L-188 : no truly religious person can justify support of the death penalty Are you sure about that, I could have sworn I read something about an Eye for and E
26 Go Canada! : "BERLIN (AP) - Germany has told the United States it will withhold evidence against Sept. 11 conspiracy defendant Zacarias Moussaoui unless it receive
27 Post contains links Alpha 1 : The Yanks can always guarantee this person won't face the death penalty, and then watch the guy be extradited with no qualms. Ah, I see-just let Germa
28 Delta-flyer : That comment about Germany was completely uncalled for. I agree, but the irony in that statement was just too irresistable for me. If I were that Germ
29 Scorpio : Alpha 1, Ah, I see-just let Germany and the EU dictate OUR laws to us to make themselves feel better about themselves? You want the Europeans to accep
30 Post contains links Delta-flyer : Here's an interesting column by a liberal journalist about the abolition of the death penalty in Turkey, of all places! In my opinion (and you'll have
31 Scorpio : Delta-flyer, In my opinion (and you'll have to read the column) it's better to have good croswalks to save the lives of thousands of innocent people t
32 Delta-flyer : I have to be honest in saying that I really don't see the connection between the two... Scorpio -- I assume you read the column? I think she meant to
33 Racko : Delta-flyer, maybe we have learned out of our history ? Of course, you can end any discussion with/about Germany just with "YOU, you are the evil Nazi
34 777236ER : Simple rule of law. No one in the EU will extradite to a country where the death penalty will be used on the person. Comments like "My mother remember
35 Post contains images Delta-flyer : Racko...Of course, you can end any discussion with/about Germany just with "YOU, you are the evil Nazis." But do you really think that this is suitabl
36 777236ER : In any case, its a bad taste. When LA cops beat a black kid senseless, how do you think comments like "Some people remember a time when the US treatme
37 STT757 : Germany is obstructing US justice for it's on rightousness, I don't see how they're right. The US is not a signor to the EU charter so don't apply the
38 Scorpio : Germany is obstructing US justice for it's on rightousness, I don't see how they're right. You don't see how they're right practising their own laws?
39 Delta-flyer : 777236ER.... When LA cops beat a black kid senseless, how do you think comments like "Some people remember a time when the US treatment of blacks was
40 777236ER : The irony in my example would be how America seems so concerned with the wellfair of a black kid considering the treatment of blacks earlier on in the
41 Post contains images Ryanb741 : Out of interest - who here would protest if Osama Bin Laden was sentenced to death? Who here was protesting when the Northern Alliance were executing
42 NoUFO : Simple rule of law. No one in the EU will extradite to a country where the death penalty will be used on the person. Again (you really don't seem to g
43 Galaxy5 : right on RYAN im 100% with you
44 Ryanb741 : NoUFO - there is an EU law also that the French must accept UK beef but they don't. It is EU law that you mustn't drink and drive - but many people do
45 We're Nuts : No terrorists should be killed. Let them spend their days in a US prison -- now THAT'S punishment.
46 NoUFO : Ryanb741: I assume if some maniac were to smash several airliners into the Munich skyline the Germans would obviously be pleading for the guilty parti
47 NoUFO : Ryanb741: NoUFO - there is an EU law also that the French must accept UK beef but they don't. It is EU law that you mustn't drink and drive - but many
48 Ryanb741 : Rules, schmules. Surely there are some eventualities that current laws are inadequate to deal with. Like for example, the murder of over 3000 innocent
49 Hepkat : The issue here is NOT one of obstruction of justice. In order to prove that argument, you'd have to show that Germany is seeking to PREVENT justice fr
50 Post contains images NoUFO : Ryanb741: Read Hepkat's post. Hepkat: Care for a cigarette? The is no beer left, sorry. Regards, NoUFO
51 Post contains images Ryanb741 : NoUFO My point is this - the EU law against helping to secure the dealth penalty on an individual was designed for cases of single murders etc, and wa
52 Post contains images NoUFO : Ryanb741: At least the abolishment of the death penalty in Germany has nothing to do with "murder in minor cases" or whatever and I highly doubt that
53 GDB : My point about the suspect, being the 20th hijacker, is that he would have to believe in all this 'martyrdom leading to paradise with all those 70+ nu
54 Lehpron : Lehpron is now skipping the brunt of this, ahem, thread to come to his (or her, you don't know do you?) point, "Alpha_1, you do you conclude that Germ
55 Aviatsiya.ru : I hate doing this but I am going to join the cut and paste brigade for a moment: Out of interest - who here would protest if Osama Bin Laden was sente
56 L-188 : . (On a side note, I regard the death penalty not as justice but revenge) You know there are times when revenge just feels very very good. It is appal
57 ADG : The fact that revenge feels good does not make it right. If you revenge the murder of someone by murdering someone, then you are not better than the p
58 DeanBNE : In my humble opinion, this seems to be the entire problem behind the US's angle on dealing with 9/11. That's it's not justice that Americans (generali
59 BA DC-10 : Germany was a signator to an EU law which means they cannot extradite anyone if they are to face execution. Germany has no say in the matter, it is a
60 Post contains images GKirk : Another, Europe bashing session I see...Come on this is getting boring
61 Alpha 1 : Why not life in prison? Yes, life in prison with 3 square meals a day, regular exercise, religious services, tv, medical treatment. Yes, that's a grea
62 Delta-flyer : One problem with life in prison (versus death) is that the prisoners' buddies will continue to terrorize society to try to gain their release. The dea
63 We're Nuts : ***reposted*** Alpha, have you ever been to prison? It's not as nice as you think. Take the Denver SuperMax, for example. Prisoners are let out of the
64 OO-AOG : We are not supporting death penalty, neither in USA or Saudi Arabia or Nigeria or anywhere else. That's it. If an EU citizen is facing death penalty a
65 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : Ever tried to get someone extradited from Portugal? Their constitution deems even prison sentences of over 15 years as conflicting with human rights -
66 ADG : One problem with life in prison (versus death) is that the prisoners' buddies will continue to terrorize society to try to gain their release.. Whilst
67 Alpha 1 : It's our philosophy of how to respect human rights. Never mind that the person on Death Row didn't respect someone elses human rights, eh? I'm not sur
68 Scorpio : Alpha 1, Never mind that the person on Death Row didn't respect someone elses human rights, eh? That does not justify sinking to his level as a govern
69 Alpha 1 : That does not justify sinking to his level as a government. That's called revenge, not justice. To you, not to a majority of Americans, Scorpio. To us
70 Racko : Alpha 1, how do you call it when your government kills someone who was later proven innocent ? What do you say to the family of an innocent guy who di
71 GDB : One of the reasons the death penalty was ended in the UK in 1965 was the notorious Christie case. In the late 40's/early 50's, Christie murdered sever
72 Scorpio : Alpha 1, I refuse to see the death penalty system as justice, or to see it as acceptable. Why? Because it is final. Once executed, wrongs can not be r
73 Lehpron : Dude, keep in mind that Scorpio, in his most recent post, is simply disagreeing with the death penalty, nothing to do with OBL, even though he might s
74 Post contains links Radarbeam : Wasn't the our good ol' texan friend GWB that announced a couple of months ago that if a US citizen would be detained in an international court he wil
75 Alpha 1 : Alpha 1, how do you call it when your government kills someone who was later proven innocent ? What do you say to the family of an innocent guy who di
76 We're Nuts : Again, it isn't acceptable, but you want perfection, and that's NOT going to happen. It could, but that's a whole other thread.
77 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : >>>Are you looking for perfection, Racko? Because if you are, you will not find it amongst men. Mistakes have, do, and will, occur. This is plain cyni
78 ADG : It has nothing to do with revenge, ADG, an you saying so doesn't make it so. Stop lying to yourself Alpha1, your whole attitude in here indicates a de
79 Swissgabe : And a guy just told me that I always try to bash everything on the USA and that it is wrong. It seems as they are allowed to but trying to forbid othe
80 Alpha 1 : This is plain cynical. You´re basically saying "it doesn´t matter if a few innocent people are executed". Excuse me, Airsicknessbag, but I'm not say
81 Scorpio : Answer me this, Scorpio: should not a sentence be measured out that fits the crime? Should not the sentence be equal to the crime committed? In this c
82 777236ER : Simply put, if not executing 100 guilty men stops the execution of 1 innocent man, then not having the death penalty is worth it.
83 ADG : I do not see it as a quest for revenge. I do see it as a quest for seeking justice for a man who may have assisted in mass murder. A feral cry for a p
84 We're Nuts : And in many countries, ADG, "an eye for an eye" IS considered justice. Look at the stern laws of Islam where thieves can have their hands cut off for
85 Post contains images Alpha 1 : Let me jump in on this one. Are you saying we should now MIMICK Islam nations? Geez Alpha, you're all over the place. Haha, sorry Nutsy. No, I am not
86 ADG : I have no bearing on the case, my feelings be damned! And there hasn't been a lot off pro or con commentary about Mossouoi in the papers-most of it h
87 Alpha 1 : Just out of interest, If there has been little commentary why are you sure he is guilty? From reading what he is charged with, ADG, and reading on wha
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