F.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1517 posts, RR: 13 Posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1460 times:
I think that remembering those terrible facts is quite unuseful and it only make us all suffer.
I really suffer when I read sentences like "We will never forget". Why?
I think that the most important proof of our civilization is the capability of forgive, to look at the future, not behind us, but the future.
When I hear words like "revenge" I really think this is the worst way fo fix problems.
With wars you make people suffer, get angry, increase their desire of revenge, that's why I think we should all forgive people who made us suffer so much, it would be really useful and it demonstrates that with violence it's impossible solve any kind of problem.
But now I see exactly the opposite, GBJ only wants kill other people, my prime minister, the same thing, I'm really disgusted, because I think that when the militaries are involved, the problems become heavier and heavier, and they can only people go crazy.
I don't want to remember the WTC for my whole life, I only want to forgive and to forget.
If we all forgive and forget, we'll demonstrate that the Christian basis is the capability to forgive, and this is our strength, our culture, our way to solve problems.
Nz767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1420 times:
Pretty hard to "forgive and forget" the deaths of 3000 plus innocent people don't you think?
We're talking about a terrorist attck here, not a breakup with a grilfriend.
PH-BFA From Netherlands, joined Apr 2002, 507 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1415 times:
F-pier, you have to understand that to forgive and forget are two totally different things. We will never forget is only a tribute to those who died in tha terror attacks. And who do we have to forgive? The hijackers?
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 19934 posts, RR: 57 Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1385 times:
Without trying to compare the gravity of the two events, I see it similarly to the Holocaust: It would be a bad mistake and disrespectful to the victims to forget, but it might be possible to forgive.
But in any case, the only people who really could forgive would be the direct or indirect victims, and the ones to be forgiven would be the persons directly or indirectly responsible for these crimes.
For those of us not involved either way I think we should be very, very careful not to quickly pass judgment on whole groups or even nations. This kind of judgment has all too been the original cause of the most horrifying crimes in history.
NormalSpeed From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1357 times:
"If we all forgive and forget, we'll demonstrate that the Christian basis is the capability to forgive, and this is our strength, our culture, our way to solve problems."
"But now I see exactly the opposite, GBJ only wants kill other people, my prime minister, the same thing, I'm really disgusted, because I think that when the militaries are involved, the problems become heavier and heavier, and they can only people go crazy."
It is a Christian principle to "turn the other cheek." However, when one is having to "turn the third or fourth cheek," then it's time for action. The US must defend itself. Do you honestly think that GWB wants to kill people? The US is very precise in it's military operations, sparing civilians whenever possible (except when Clinton is at the helm, of course), does this sound like bloodlust to you?
If terrorists had killed 3000+ Italian citizens, would you be so interested in "forgiving and forgetting?"
In fact, I can forgive the hijackers, but I do not feel that eliminates the need to defend ourselves from further attacks. I'm personally not interested in revenge. I am interested in doing whatever possible to prevent terrorism. Do you not think that the US would be doing the rest of the world a favor by eliminating those who would kill them?
"Forgive means to delete, to erase. That's the only solution."
I disagree here as well. To "delete," or "erase" the memory of 9/11 does nothing but dishonor the memory of those who died. And that is no solution at all.
BH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 21 Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1346 times:
I can't believe this. We had an act of terror which killed 3,000+ fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, friends from every corner of the globe. Many babies born have no father now because of this. This has brought grief in the US to many people who did not know anybody in the towers or haven't even been there and has caused some psychological problems for them. And you want us to forget about it? Also, terrorists have said they are planning more attacks. We need to do our best in preventing another horrible mass murder like this.
Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
VirginLover From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 958 posts, RR: 19 Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1344 times:
Yes... I forgive you Mohammed Atta! I forgive you for using resources in America to learn how to fly a plane into the World Trade Center in the name of religion as you went to a strip club on 9/10/01. I forgive you for piercing a clear blue sky and killing 3,000 mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, sisters and brothers. I forgive you for me having to see people's lives torn apart at the seams in a blink of an eye. Get real F. Pier; it's easy for you to say we should "forgive and forget" as you sit thousands of miles away across the Atlantic. Unfortunately, living on Long Island makes that hard. So it's going to take me just a tiny bit longer to "forgive."
Go Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 15 Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1334 times:
If you forget your past it will come back at you f.pier, are you saying your happy to forget world war two, are you saying then that the statues in italy maring the birth of your modern state plus commenerating your fallen troops in WW1 and WW2 should be dismantled?
"It doesn't matter the killed people nationality, but only the future, a future of peace, wealth and good life, not hate and anger."
Yes, that wont happen while there are terrorists groups seekign to destroy our way of life, since your italian you should be aware of the alarming amount of al-queda cells found to operate in your country, further more one of your goverment advisors was recently killed by a terrorist organisation.
for cant forget the past horrors, europe tried to post-WW1 and ended up with a far worse war and mass death because it was too scared to stand up to hilter and your former leader.
that doesnt mean to say everyone blames current germans and italians for the second world war and it doesnt mean to say that you blame every muslim or arab because of a mad mad minority.
but you dont forget.
It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1302 times:
I didn't say it will be easy, but it's necessary.
It's the only way to avoid the hate and the revenge desire.
If you think about it you'll realize that that's the only possible solution.
Osama and his gang want something - withdrawal of all westerners from Arab countries, and of American support for Israel. 9/11 was not an isolated event, but a continuing campaign. He will keep attacking until those objectives are met (remember the Cole, and the 2 embassy bombings in Africa, among others). His patterns show that these attacks will get bigger and more ambitious each time - along a line of logic like "That was not big enough to get them to give in, so here's a little more".
So there are 2 ways to get him to stop: 1) Give in to his demands. This is clearly out of the question - Holocaust II would soon follow, and in any case the rest of the Arab world does not share his views of isolation. Or 2) You stop him by active means - kill him or capture him.
If you "forgive and forget", he will attack again, and those who advocated not stopping him will be guilty of murder, or at least of involuntary manslaughter through gross negligence. You could have done something to prevent the next attack and you chose not to. Would you like the death of the next victims on your conscience? Or do you not have one?
SSTjumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1299 times:
Maybe forgiveness is necessary, but that still doesn't negate the fact that there is turmoil in the Middle East that needs to be handled, some way, some how.
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 53 Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1296 times:
I thought we should've just fired a couple of Sparrows into that big rock at Mecca that all of the Muslims bow down to every year during the Haji season and convert it into kitty litter rubble.
That was my first thought. It would certainly avenge the leveling of the WTC, and be a sort of redemption for New Yorks amputated skyline.
But then I later realized that committing such an act would serve no useful purpose and would probably spark WWIII. Plus I also got flamed for making that comment. And everyon was right. That WAS pretty small brained thinking.
I would now have to pretty much echo Cfalks post. As usual, he hit the nail squarely on the head.
Ihadapheo From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 6024 posts, RR: 63 Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1290 times:
Forgive and Forget?, An interesting idea that works wonders if you are talking about oh let's say a child who accidentally broke a window on your house while playing baseball, football (the US or the Rest of the world's version). But here we are talking about a situation that is quite a bit in a different league. If we are to do nothing and sit by in our panacea and let these events happen and say, "oh that's OK, I forgave you for killing 3,000 of our citizens, then what's next?? 30,000, 300,000, 3,000,000, 3,000,000,000, and finally what 6,000,000,000.
When we are all dead then yes all WILL be forgotten, so I guess the point of forgive and forget will work out just fine. Thankfully the Japanese have not forgiven us for nor will they EVER forget about the a-bombs that we dropped on their cities, and I am sure that those of the Jewish faith will not forgive nor forget about Hitler, and we sure still learn quite a bit from oh let's say the Peloponnesian (sp?) War.
Even more recent history shows us what can happen if we try to forgive and forget transgressions, look no further than
Yours
Ihadapheo
Pray hard but pray with care For the tears that you are crying now Are just your answered prayers
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 53 Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1287 times:
So what you're saying is that we should just drop bags-o'-cash on them, and all of this will go away????
Jeez....there's a brilliant solution. They level our Twin Towers, and damage the Pentagon, and take 3600 people with them. So let's give them 10 billion dollars.
You KNOW what would happen next. They'll be wondering...."hmmm...if we take out the Sears Tower and the St. Louis Arch, and kill 7200 people, maybe they'll turn around and give us 20 billion."
I think you're thinking is kind of convoluted, don't you think?
Twaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1274 times:
Oh god, I hate these posts so much. I hate these foreigners who have no connection to the death, who have no connection to the destruction, no connection to the reality that these people are actively trying to destroy MY way of life, everything I have done for the past 21 years, everything my countrymen have achieved for the past 230 years and everything we have built and you goddamn want to forgive that. The thousands of Americans who died to liberate you backward ass country from a fascist anarchic dictator, will not be forgotten, the millions of Americans dollars spent to rebuild Europe will not be forgotten. The hundreds of billions of spent to defend western Europe from colonizing communism will not be forgotten. The 3,000 innocent mothers, and fathers and children will not be forgotten. We've helped your country in the past and never asked you to forget about the destruction and devestation wrought by your own leaders. Neither will you to us. At our time of need, you will simply say, "friend, what can we do to help?" as we have multiple times in your country's short history.
F.pier From Italy, joined Aug 2000, 1517 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1265 times:
Dear Twaneedsnohelp, I want u to know that I live in Europe, which has an history of sufference, which has the concept of death much more than the United States.............
Our countries were completely destroyed and that's why we understand what wars are, if you attack other countries a lot of people will suffer, and they're people exactly like you and I and I don't want them to suffer.
We Europeans know the sufference.
I thank the US for what they did for us, but in fact they didn't lose their money, it was just an investment, because they earned much more from us, so don't tell me that you are the good father.
Remember that the most of you come from Europe and the people who made the US rich were European.
25 American_4275: If you weren't IN NEW YORK on September 11th, you obviously have no clue what kind of chaos....what kind of a tragedy it was. The best I could do was
26 VirginLover: You'll have to excuse F. Pier, he lives in a magical fairy land where people stand on a hill with the sun and rainbow behind them as they sing Kum Ba
27 F.pier: OKOK, who cares of other lives, only american lifes are important. I can't stand this way of thinking. I don't need to be excused for nothing because
28 AA61hvy: f.pier, america wont be pushed around. you dont live in the u.s. so you cant say you understand. dont try to say you understand. most of us understand
29 BH346: OKOK, who cares of other lives, only american lifes are important. Many offices in the WTC were for foreign companies.
30 Delta-flyer: F.pier, I admire your desire for peace. But if we forgive and forget, as you say, will that lead to peace? Will the al Qaida renounce their hate for t
31 Matt D: Hmmm...nobody said that an Americans life is more "important" than-say-a Germans. Or that a Japanese is more important than a Pakistani. Where in the
32 F.pier: That's why I say that revenge is only the way to prepare another attack. It's not the solution, we don't need it
33 F.pier: Delta, why do you think an attack against Iraq will solve the problem?!?!? OBL men will only become anger and anger and in the future this way of solv
34 Yyz717: An attack on Iraq will start the ball rolling on democracy in the Arab Mideast. This is of course what the Saudis fear the most. As for forgiveness, n
35 F.pier: The seeds of war and violence can only generate hate and violence. That's why war is never a solution.
36 Delta-flyer: F.pier...Delta, why do you think an attack against Iraq will solve the problem?!?!? I do not recall saying that. And I don't know exactly what "proble
37 Twaneedsnohelp: forget it, don't waste your time with this guy. he's clueless. tnnh
38 Klaus: While I´m certainly against forgetting or summarily forgiving any cruelty or injustice, I´m also very certain that you can fall down just as easily
39 Rai: If we all forgive and forget, we'll demonstrate that the Christian basis is the capability to forgive, and this is our strength, our culture, our way
40 F.pier: I didn't say we shoud do nothing. We should make Saddam lose power, but not with bombs, in another way, with the brain!!!! I'm sure the US and their a
41 Yyz717: war is never a solution. Errr.....yes, indeed it is. The Gulf War liberated Kuwait from Iraq. WW2 liberated Western Europe from the Nazis. War is neve
42 Go Canada!: "I didn't say not to fix that problem, but not with war. We can help them to develop their countries, to reduce the hunger, to increase their income.
43 Flight152: You know what? I have an idea. F.pier can MIND HIS OWN BUISNESS in Italy when us in the United States can continue our remberence for those who lost t
44 Go Canada!: "There are never good reasons for wars, never" oh, so your country was never justifed in having the many european wars and civil arguments(before ital
45 JetService: F.pier, you can't forgive someone that isn't sorry for what they did. So forget about the 'forgive' part. You say there's no purpose for war, but when
46 NormalSpeed: F.pier, Without war, you would still be living under a facist dictatorship. Americans died so that you could express your albiet misguided opinion. So
47 Apathoid: It's a good thing for you that some men from America (my grandfather among them) were willing to fight and die for you, isn't it? Forgetting what happ
48 KaiTakFan: Dear Marwan Al- Shehhi, Hello Mr Al Shehhi. You may not know me. However I know you very well. You were the man who decided to take over my airlines 7
49 F.pier: I still can't understand why you cannot realize the reasons of those acts. I think those terrorists were and are angry because of the American behavio
50 We're Nuts: If you had written the date as 09/11/2001, you might have had a chance.
51 Cfalk: I think that we have to work to avoid similar actions in the future... but I think that war can only increase the probability to have similar events i
52 KaiTakFan: So F.pier its ok for the terrorist to be all pissed off for our foreign policy, but we shouldnt be pissed off because they cant do anything civil and
53 Cerulean: Cfalk don't waste your time. This guy is so out of touch with reality and deluded that it really won't matter. More likely, he himself doesn't believe
54 Rai: He shouldn't forget that most "Americans" who died that day were Italian...unless he consider Scicilians lower than his "pure" Northern League blood.
55 Sjc>sfo: We discussed this issue in my Foriegn Policy class last week... there were some interesting points of view. The event was too important to forget thou
56 STT757: Lisa Beamer the Wife of Todd Beamer from flight 93 said she could forgive because of her (and here late husbands) strong religious beliefs. Others may
57 Klaus: The primary problem in this debate is the staunch belief of many that war is an universal problem-solving tool - without any alternatives. Even F.pier
58 Apathoid: In his world, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny still stop by and visit, too.
59 Klaus: Apathoid: In his world, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny still stop by and visit, too. And your own nightmare, complete with great-inquisitor and
60 Cfalk: we had learned to solve conflicts by thinking first and then acting consistently, reasonably and honourably. OK. "thinking first" - That was done. The
61 We're Nuts: The entire arab world was not nuked out of existance. How charitable of us.
62 Klaus: Cfalk, I´ve got no major problem with the fact nor with the preliminary outcome of the Afghanistan campaign. This was necessary. (Even if there were
63 Apathoid: Gee, klaus, what a typically knee jerk response. How was what I said chauvanistic or part of a grand inquisition? Defending my nation against attack b
64 Lehpron: "If you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it.... " L-188, explain to me how we as Americans are doomed to repeat 9/11, it was not our fault, it
65 Donder10: The US has to tred a fine line between eliminating the threat of future attacks and stoking the fires of Middle East anti-US fleeling.Some US moves li
66 B747ca: I as an Italian-Canadian am ashamed to be hearing these comments from an Italian. How quick these Europeans forget who saved their a$$ during WWII. It
67 We're Nuts: WWII? Why bring that up? We did nothing for Italy!
69 Rai: B747ca: Of course this clown has no family on this side of the Atlantic. He's from Northern Italy. The Italians who came here were the "dirty" Scicili
70 Flight152: "..how stupid can you be? You sound as if you are the only ones who have experienced pain. Instead of an explosive reaction by this level of arrogance
71 B747ca: RAI, yes jealousy, I am sure of it. When I go visit Italy (about once every 2 years), I get the same sort of thing (my family lives in Abbruzzo). "the
72 Alpha 1: Forgive? Maybe-someday. They say time heals all wounds, and, in the long run, the wound cannot heal completely without forgiveness. But forget? Never,
73 Apathoid: Actually, nuts, America did fight to liberate Italy from the facists. In July of 1943, Mussolini was arrested and the facist government toppled. Marsh
74 NormalSpeed: F.pier: "I'm really sad because in the most of your replies I've read only anger, anger and anger..." Tell me, where you expecting a different reacti
75 Boeing4ever: Here we go, more anti-US rhetoric. So now this event is meaningless? Listen, if we forget, we will suffer again. Those terrorists mean to kill us, no
76 Boeing4ever: BTW-Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I am not threatening F.pier, that was an example. I could have used any two people getting into a fight. B4e-F
78 We're Nuts: Okay, Apathoid, you're right. It is easy to forget that Axis citizens for the most part hated their governments. Some people here have forgotten that
79 Apathoid: Unfortuneatly, war is often the only way to maintain peace. It's the whole reason the US entered WW2, in Europe anyway. When you have people like muss
80 Aviatsiya.ru: What happened on 11/09/2001 in the overall scheme of things is not the most important event in human history. Who, in 1,000 years time is going to loo
81 Apathoid: So, now we are back to "America doesn't care because they don't save the whole world, they only care about themselves." Let me see, one of the reasons
82 Aviatsiya.ru: November 9th, what happened that day? Well in 1989, that is the day that the Berlin Wall fell.
83 Heavymetal: I still can't understand why you cannot realize the reasons of those acts. The word "reason" and the events of that morning last year should not be so
84 NormalSpeed: Deal with it? Ok, but don't get upset if "dealing with it" means military action in Iraq. Apathoid: I'd put you on my respected users list if you were
85 Go Canada!: "I think that a serious foreign policy can be much more efficient than a war, because nothing good can grow from a war action, but only terror, hate,
86 Turin_airport: OK, first of all. TWAneedsNOhelp, take your f#@king words and put them inside your backward ass, clear? I don't care who do you think you are, where y
87 Cfalk: If we all forgive and forget, we'll demonstrate that the Christian basis is the capability to forgive, and this is our strength, our culture, our way
88 F.pier: I don't want to forgive them for my sadisfaction, it's impossible, of course I'm sad because of those events, but I'm looking forward and trying to un
89 Donder10: The way some people on here describe it,we can take out al Qaeda terrorists/Saddam Hussein without any negative effects.I don't see this happening.The
90 Cfalk: Good God F.pier, but you are naive! Do you think hyenas back off from a stricken prey if the prey doesn't strike back? Hell, no, they go in for the ki
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