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Is Jesus To Blame?  
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3573 times:
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Don't overreact to the title please.

It was mentioned in another thread that if given the chance to meet Jesus face to face, the user would ask him, "See how many jews died because of what you started?"

Now I persoanlly think that is a rather course view. As a raised Catholic who loves to dissect the very matrix of world religion, the person known as Jesus was a Jew who was exalted and hated.

It is my understanding that his peers, other Jews, asked that he be crucified.

But I do not see how he caused the death of other Jews.


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121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

It's a ridiculous statement by someone who obviously who knows NOTHING about Christianity. God chose the Jews as His people, and Jesus was born a Jew. So that accusation is wrong and it's very provocative.

I'd like to see Lubcha pull out a verse from the Bible to justify that accusation. We live in a civil society and everyone should have the common decency to respect other people's beliefs(yes as surprising as it sounds even those people called Christians), not generalize . That's disgusting.




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User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

By the way even the Muslims think of Jesus as a great person. We Christians believe He's the son of God and they don't, but they still consider Jesus as one of the most important, if not the most important of their prophets (I as a Christian think He's the son of God, but anyway). History tells us Jesus was an awesome peace maker (He could have easily fought with the guards who were taking Him to Calvary, but He chose not to fight). So no Jesus is not blame and He should be respected more, unless some of you people oppose a message of peace and love. You don't have to believe in it to respect it by the way so no I'm not forcing my ideas on any of you.


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User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Consider how many people have died in the name of religion. Bet its more than all the non-religious wars combined. WW2? Forget it.

Yeah, way to go Jesus/God/Allah etc etc.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Marco it has been my experience on these forums that you get offended by practically any scholarly debate about the merits or (YES!) lack thereof of the life of Christ, the Faith he gave birth to and the myriad of seperate directions that faith has taken since it started. Is your faith so fragile that it cannot withstand even that which you find distasteful?

There is NOTHING in this original post that is flame bait and disrespectful.

As to the question of the original post, the words and life of Christ seemed to blame behavior and value rather than any one structure that they sat within. So, no. I don't think Jesus was to blame for anything beyond the last minute of his mortal life on the cross.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3525 times:

Marco

Having re-read the thread I can see now that you didnt intend this comment for the original post, but for one that was obviously deleted. I stand corrected and apologize, but I do stand by my statement that you get a little overly touchy on this subject of Faith.


User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Heavymetal there is nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs, but making a generalization like that is insulting. If someone said that Islam is all about terrorism because of Sept 11th wouldn't you disagree with that? Using the same logic, one shouldn't make provocative generalizations about Christianity. I'm surprised there are people who actually think this way in North America. I hope we can reach a day when everyone respects each other...


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User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (12 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3516 times:

Heavymetal yes that's correct to clear things up, this thread is in response to lubcha's comments in another thread. I am touchy because these are my beliefs that are being attacked and they're so wrong. When I'm in Church we are never taught this kind of garbage. It's totally wrong and to me it's very personal.


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User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

When I'm in Church we are never taught this kind of garbage

>>whoop whoop<< biased teaching alert!!


User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

777236ER,

What my beliefs are is none of your business. In fact you're showing bias towards me in your statement. Chew on that for a while...



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User currently offlineUs330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

The original post that brought this thread to light, "given the chance to meet Jesus face to face, the user would ask him, "See how many jews died because of what you started?"" does have some historical merit to it. Granted, while it is true that Christianity didn't "burst" onto the scene, the path to its establishment as a globally-worshipped religion is strewn with anti-Semitism.
For one, a early radical belief of Christianity (check this week's Time article on "Abraham: Father of Three Faiths) is that it was supposed to replace Judaism, and thus sparked such things as the Spanish Inquisition, persecution of, and general mistreatment of the Jews, including the forming of some totally bogus but widespread myths believed to be fact by the relatively uneducated population of Europe, like that the Jews were Christkillers, which formed the base of centuries of anti-Semitism.
Thus, an argument can be made that Jesus was responsible for the death of many Jews, albeit a fairly indirect one and one based on the actions of radical Christians, butt those who followed the original purpose of Christianity, cannot be held responsible for the radicals actions other than having the knowledge that misinterpretation of their faith led to the death of many Jews as well as other minorities.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

That's not my point. Your statement that you're not taught about this "garbage" in church (!) is a bit rediculous. Do you think the church is going to tell you how many people have died in the name of Jesus/God/Allah etc etc? Of course not. They're going to tell you how great god is and how you have to say 100 lord's prayers a day or go to HELL etc etc.

Can you not see how your view might be biased?


User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

That's not my point. Your statement that you're not taught about this "garbage" in church (!) is a bit rediculous.

So basically what you're saying is that you want Christians to be taught this kind of garbage in Church?

Do you think the church is going to tell you how many people have died in the name of Jesus/God/ etc etc? Of course not.

If those people knew Jesus in the first place they wouldn't have committed those atrocities so we do not consider them as Christians, and no we do not think they died in the name of God. Also at a Christian youth conference in Abu Dhabi we discussed all of these issues and how we have to set an example for people and tell them that as Christians we too think they were wrong and that they weren't doing God's work. At Church we regularly have these kind of discussions, many of these issues were actually discussed by Jesus in the Bible. I'm glad you're showing us your prejudices 77236ER, is this being "open-minded"?

They're going to tell you how great god is and how you have to say 100 lord's prayers a day or go to HELL etc etc.

777236ER, you obviously don't have a clue what Christianity is about. So if that's what you think Church is about then fine, but if that was it I wouldn't be a Christian, just keep that in mind.

Can you not see how your view might be biased?

Nope I'm not biased at all, I have the world's view and the Christian view and I can defend myself using what I know. You, on the other hand, have no knowledge on Christianity so you're making all of these comments from one angle. Do you see how you're biased?



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User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

You STILL miss my point! Learning about religion from inside the church is like learning about communist Russia back in 50s America! Or about Nazi Germany in 40s Britain. The view is biased. Will the church EVER admit to its failings?! Not to the level that someone independant will.

So basically what you're saying is that you want Christians to be taught this kind of garbage in Church?

You just dismissing it as garbage straight off it pretty telling if you ask me...

Also at a Christian youth conference in Abu Dhabi we discussed all of these issues and how we have to set an example for people and tell them that as Christians we too think they were wrong and that they weren't doing God's work.

Fair enough, but that's not the point I'm making. The church as a whole will never admit that Christianity (whatever that may be) has made mistakes in the past.

At Church we regularly have these kind of discussions, many of these issues were actually discussed by Jesus in the Bible.

Will you ever admit that Christianity and the church has been wrong in these discussions? I doubt that you will. Do you discuss how many people have died as a DIRECT result of the birth of Christ/Jesus? And what's the conclusion? I'm guessing its that these people are not TRUE followers of Christ, or those that killed mis-read what was written in the Bible, right?

Nope I'm not biased at all, I have the world's view and the Christian view and I can defend myself using what I know. You, on the other hand, have no knowledge on Christianity so you're making all of these comments from one angle. Do you see how you're biased?

Maybe I am biased, I'm looking at it from what is (in my eyes) and objective point of view. You can't really claim that my point of view is clouded when you're analysing Christianity and religion in general from WITHIN the church. You're not biased? Will you even admit that "religion" has caused lots and lots of suffering? Will you admit that as a DIRECT result of the birth of Jesus, lots and lots of people have died and suffered?


User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Ohhhhhh Mirrodie. Look what you have started Smile We got lucky on the other thread about Islam and Christianity, very little flaming going on there. But, this one seems to have taken a different road. Anywho, the Romans had just as big a part in the crucifixion of Jesus as the Jews if not more so. Also, Jesus did not somehow cause the killing of the Jews. Jesus and Christianity, as I have said before, promotes peace. Just because others have taken the words of Jesus and the Bible, twisted them to fit their own perverted ways, and then claimed that what they are doing is what God wants them to do, does not, in any way, make Jesus reponsible for that.

Lets say that one day I said "We should not participate in rituals based in other religions, because that may cause us to stray from God." Now, If someone decided to interpret that as "We should try to kill the other religions because they may hurt our religion", that does not make me responsible for the death of whoever the people kill. I did not tell them to go out and slaughter the other religion, they only twisted my words to fit their way of life.

Its the same way with Jesus. Our sin has caused us to corrupt the meaning behind what Jesus taught us and gave to us.

Now, lets all try to calm down and have a thoughtful and respectful discussion, although there is about a 5% chance of that happening Smile



User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Lets say that one day I said "We should not participate in rituals based in other religions, because that may cause us to stray from God." Now, If someone decided to interpret that as "We should try to kill the other religions because they may hurt our religion", that does not make me responsible for the death of whoever the people kill. I did not tell them to go out and slaughter the other religion, they only twisted my words to fit their way of life.

You'd have to think a "god" would realise this.

Our sin has caused us to corrupt the meaning behind what Jesus taught us and gave to us.

Wouldn't God realise this? Why did he make the Bible so ambiguous? Why, when there are billions of people who aren't Christians, is he not sending angels etc to convert us? Why is all we have a BOOK that was written not by him, but humans?

Yet the Christians among us use the almost excuse-sounding reason "oh, it's OUR sin."

Whether mis-interpreted or not, religion HAS caused the suffering of countless people.


User currently offlineNonrevman From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1301 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (12 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3447 times:

No, Jesus is not to blame. He said that the greatest commandment was to love the LORD God completely. Next after that, He stated that we should love our neighbor. It does not sound like a mandate for violence to me.

User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8124 posts, RR: 54
Reply 17, posted (12 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

I blame Jesus for everything. What a bastard.


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User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8124 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (12 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3434 times:

Only kidding. I'm sure he was great. And I also blame some stuff on Dubya, my cat and the Earth Wind & Fire brass section.


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User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (12 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3426 times:
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Nice save, Cedarjet.

Well, I only posed the question in order to entice scholarly talk about the subject. The other thread was out what you'd say to someone if you met them face to face. That thread began to veer from its topic.

So I extend the invite to Redngold, Marco, Lubcha and anyone else who can stand discussion in a mature manner.




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User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (12 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

#1. Mirrodie, I really hope you didnt take offense at any of my playful joking earlier, But I think that I may have offended you. I really only said that because you seemed to be the guy who would be able to understand my joking. But Im just getting a little whiff of annoyance at me from your last post. Again, I really hope you didnt take any offense at anything I said. But then again, its probably just my imagination.


#2. 777236ER, your right. God should have known. And he DID know. But theres nothing he can do about it without violating his rules that he set for us. He gave us free will, He cannot send down angels everywhere to force us to believe Him. He has given us the Bible, which has more than enough information in it to show who He is and His plan. If you cannot trust in that, then you probably will not have enough faith anyway to successfully get through the trials and troubles that you will face as a Christian. The Bible weeds out those who cant accept from those that can. It says in the Bible
"...But a natural man will not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he does not understand it, for it is spiritually appraised..."

We are able to understand the things God has shown us because we have allowed Him to come into our lives and show us. And as it says in that verse, those of you who are not believers will not understand the Bible or God because you do not have the Holy Spirit within you. Thats why we try so hard to show you what God has for you. If you can let God in for a split second, you will start to understand what God is all about.


User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (12 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3404 times:
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Beefmoney, don't worry, I didn't take offense.  Smokin cool It's good.

I just wanted to make sure we can all talk here without stabbing each other, flaming, etc. The remark wasn't meant at any one in particular.


Ahh, got to go. My Jewish fiance awaits her Catholic man.  Wink/being sarcastic



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (12 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

You STILL miss my point! Learning about religion from inside the church is like learning about communist Russia back in 50s America!

But we live in a secular society so as soon as we leave the Church we're confronted with people like you, so you're example is incorrect.

Or about Nazi Germany in 40s Britain. The view is biased. Will the church EVER admit to its failings?! Not to the level that someone independant will.

It's not about the "Church". The Church is made up of people, and those are the components of the Church. People make mistakes. People are not perfect and some are perverse and ruin the message.

You just dismissing it as garbage straight off it pretty telling if you ask me...

Telling of what? Lubcha claimed that it was because of Jesus that Jews were killed. I replied by saying we are not taught that kind of crap in Church. You're not making any sense.

Fair enough, but that's not the point I'm making. The church as a whole will never admit that Christianity (whatever that may be) has made mistakes in the past.

The Catholic Church apologized to the Jews. Everyone apologized to the Jews. We Christians admit (just like I am now) that some of us have given us a bad name but that is not what Christianity is about.

Will you ever admit that Christianity and the church has been wrong in these discussions?

Not Christianity, churches have made mistakes but thats because they followed their own agenda, not God's. One of the commandments is "thou shalt not kill". That explains itself.

I doubt that you will. Do you discuss how many people have died as a DIRECT result of the birth of Christ/Jesus?

But Christ came to save us, so that we wouldn't have to face eternal separation and whether you're willing to admit it, His sacrifice was and still is an awesome gesture.

And what's the conclusion? I'm guessing its that these people are not TRUE followers of Christ, or those that killed mis-read what was written in the Bible, right?

If you're suggesting that it's in the Bible, back up your accusations with facts, not just hot air. (It's ironic to see you accusing Christianity of preaching hatred, and not while ago you were defending Islam (not that I have anything against Muslims)). My question to you is why do you defend every religion and only mock Christianity?

Maybe I am biased, I'm looking at it from what is (in my eyes) and objective point of view.

But I thought you implied I was biased and you weren't...so according to your logic your wrong...

You can't really claim that my point of view is clouded when you're analysing Christianity and religion in general from WITHIN the church.

You're putting too much emphasis on the Church. Christianity isn't about the church, it's a lifestyle which you choose and Church is just a once-a-week thing. It's a time of worship and fellowship but it's not necessarily the only thing Christianity is about. Please explain your point of view because I'm not sure I understand what you're going on about.

You're not biased?

Who isn't?

Will you even admit that "religion" has caused lots and lots of suffering?

Which is why religion means nothing to me. To me it's not about religion or being religious, I have a Christian lifestyle and a relationship with God. I don't view it as a set of rules or a religion. I believe in Christ and God only. Religion has caused alot of deaths over the years but that still doesn't mean it's bad. Religion has saved millions from starving. Religion has given hope to millions. Religion has given us morals and laws (yes I know, you don't think so, but I do).

Will you admit that as a DIRECT result of the birth of Jesus, lots and lots of people have died and suffered?

And till this day every year 150,000 Christians are killed because they believe in Him. A Biblical prophesy (by the way). Till this day millions are starving in Southern Sudan because they believe in Jesus. They are persecuted in China, India, Indonesia, etc...

What's ironic is Jesus came to prevent bloodshed, to promote peace and human values. Now people like you are claiming that it's because of Him that people suffer. It just goes to show how the devil has taken control, eh?

Good night triple seven Big grin



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (12 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

Good to hear Mirrodie. I just get upset with myself if I make anyone angry. Its somthing that I really try not to do,and when I do I get pretty down on myself for it. I really dont know why, but it seems to keeps me up at night Smile

And congrats about your recent engagement Big thumbs up


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2237 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (12 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Till this day millions are starving in Southern Sudan because they believe in Jesus. They are persecuted in China, India, Indonesia, etc...

Christians persecuted in India ? You must be nuts  Smile They're (along with the much smaller Parsi community) probably the most well-to-do communities in India.



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25 Marco : persecuted in India ? You must be nuts They're (along with the much smaller Parsi community) probably the most well-to-do communities in India. What a
26 Post contains images Mirrodie : Thanks OK, so what if I said this: Jesus may not exist. I mean, my g/f, wait, FIANCE, (still takes getting used to) and I discuss this all the time. R
27 Beefmoney : OK Mirrodie, Im a Christian and I believe that the Messiah was Jesus Christ. I believe this based on one simple fact......Jesus said he was the Messia
28 BarfBag : What about the Christian missionaries that were burnt to death? What about the Churches that were burnt down? The murder of Graham Staines was certain
29 Post contains images Lehpron : Marco, tell me something, you said this: "Heavymetal there is nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs, but making a generalization like that is i
30 Post contains images Marco : Marco, tell me something, you said this: "Heavymetal there is nothing wrong with questioning one's beliefs, but making a generalization like that is i
31 Marco : Barfbag, First of all a couple of years ago there were alot of Churches burnt down, and alot of Christians WERE persecuted in India. That's why there
32 Post contains images Beefmoney : Commenting on your other thoughts, Mirrodie, Yes, Jesus really is an ideal representation of how to live. But thats was not his primary reason for exi
33 Lubcha132 : Lubcha speaks. Yes Jesus was a Jew, but he went about things in his own way. He misused powers such as using certain names of G-d to do stuff (like fl
34 BarfBag : First of all a couple of years ago there were alot of Churches burnt down, and alot of Christians WERE persecuted in India. That's why there were demo
35 Post contains images Lehpron : Marco, you proved your point and I bought it, all the way to this statement: "So in order for me to be a normal person I have to throw away my culture
36 Beefmoney : Ohhhhh why do people keep using the actions of twisted and corrupted people to show how God and Jesus are bad? Look, Just because, like I have said qu
37 Lubcha132 : After all, the Rabbis and other "spiritual leaders" back during Jesus' time were using the temples as marketplaces! where did you hear that?
38 Lubcha132 : i'm staying out of this. everybody gets their own sides of the story and its just gonna turn into a J vs. C vs. M battle.
39 Beefmoney : Lubcha, have you read where Jesus sees the temple being used by the priests as a place to sell animals, and Jesus become furious with them for ruining
40 Ctbarnes : I can't know for sure, but I would imagine Jesus answering with a wry smile: "Don't blame me, I was the first one who got killed..." Charles, SJ
41 Tbar220 : Hrmm....what an odd debate. Maybe I should read this book called the...oh...um....New Commandment? Appears that this book causes quite a lot of contro
42 Cfalk : Hey Ctbarnes, nice to see (read) you again. Good quote. First off, regarding 777236ER: You STILL miss my point! Learning about religion from inside th
43 Hepkat : Don't you all realize you're perpetuating exactly that ignorance which has kept humanity in the dark all these centuries? If there's an all-loving God
44 Jm-airbus320 : I find it often ridiculous and humourous how people always tend to lay blame at God's feet. Did God ever give a directive to anyone to annihilate anyo
45 Heavymetal : Did God ever give a directive to anyone to annihilate anyone in his name? Sorry to have to do this to ya. JM-, but......from the Christian Bible alone
46 Cfalk : Heavymetal, Just to clarify, those are all passages from the Old Testament. The New Testament overruled many of the Old Testament's practices, includi
47 Heavymetal : Cfalk... Therein lies the problem doesn't it? Since Christ's last gasp, it's been nothing but "just to clarify"...... from a whole helluva lotta peopl
48 Jan Mogren : Heavy, about 2000 years to adjust to the new rules ain't enough for you? /JM
49 Post contains images Mirrodie : "-Good Morning my neighbors! -Hey, F%&$ you! -Yes! Yes! F%* you too!! " -eddie murphy in coming to america, LOL one of the funniest scenes Ive seen. W
50 Ual777contrail : He chose the Jews as his people, he became strong like other Jews. He also became weak. They had the chance to follow him, they could have walked with
51 Heavymetal : about 2000 years to adjust to the new rules ain't enough for you? My friend, it's the 21st century...we have the knowledge and technology to start exp
52 Cfalk : Therein lies the problem doesn't it? Since Christ's last gasp, it's been nothing but "just to clarify"...... from a whole helluva lotta people who are
53 Lubcha132 : i guess it wasn't him so much as it was what his followers started, i apologize for phrasing it wrong. there have been several people in the history o
54 Heavymetal : You are missing the point. I meant to answer civilly, but you did not understand. The passages you quoted were among the ones that Christ taught shoul
55 777236ER : What a screwed up statement. Have you ever taken logic courses? Where I went to school it was mandatory, but apparently that is not the case any more.
56 Ual777contrail : The problem with this post is that you have those who are lost and those who believe. we live in a society that is "politically correct" we try to mak
57 Heavymetal : Bingo. Us. Saved. Them. Doomed. What a fun, proactive approach to the people around you.
58 777236ER : Woah, what an argument. "We don't care how much science and logic says there is no god, there IS one and when we all die we're gonna go to heaven and
59 Post contains images Marco : Yes Jesus was a Jew, but he went about things in his own way. He misused powers such as using certain names of G-d to do stuff (like fly or walk on wa
60 Marco : Barfbag, You seemed to have misunderstood me. First of all you're implying that I said that the persecution of Christians was organized by the state w
61 777236ER : Remember our conversations a long time ago? Perhaps you should refresh your memory. Yeah I do. You could never explain how something perfect (ie. infi
62 Post contains images Mirrodie : this is a good topic, to answer the question in my own opinion he saved the Jews by becoming one with them. Yes, isn't that a novel concept to show th
63 Marco : Yeah I do. You could never explain how something perfect (ie. infinite) could vary. Oh I could. I also proved how invalid your points were. Refresh yo
64 Us330 : Mirrodie, like what George Carlin said in his book, Napalm and Silly Putty, "Jews are smart. They don't have a hell." In broader terms though, compare
65 777236ER : Oh I could. I also proved how invalid your points were. Refresh your memory. Oh dear, wanna do this AGAIN?!?!? God is omnipotent, perfect, infinite? Y
66 Marco : Oh dear, wanna do this AGAIN?!?!? yup. God is omnipotent, perfect, infinite? You said it. You cant have varying forms of infinity. Why not? Because yo
67 777236ER : You can't have varying forms of infinity. Infininty doesn't really exist and can't be used as a number, but saying that infinity can vary you can easi
68 Post contains images Marco : You can't have varying forms of infinity. OK... Infininty doesn't really exist and can't be used as a number, I'm still waiting for your "point". but
69 777236ER : God is perfect right? How can there be different forms of perfect? An angry god is inherantly different from a happy god, yet they're both perfect? Ho
70 Marco : God is perfect right? How can there be different forms of perfect? An angry god is inherantly different from a happy god, yet they're both perfect? Ho
71 777236ER : Think about it logically. Why can't there be two forms of perfect? Just the same as there can't be two forms of infinity (whatever that may mean). Say
72 Marco : Think about it logically. So you mean this is your opinion. These are the solid facts you were talking about earlier on. Why can't there be two forms
73 Heavymetal : God is perfect, period. No one has mentioned two perfects. Ok, riddle me this Batman.....God is perfect, God's Word is perfect....but man, according t
74 Marco : Heavymetal, don't resort to name calling, that's very low. God's word is perfect and just because we humans cannot follow it 100%, that doesn't make i
75 Heavymetal : Heavymetal, don't resort to name calling, that's very low. It's an innocent expression here in the states. Apologies if you didnt know that. But the f
76 Mirrodie : Yes, Marco, relax. the Batman saying was a line made by the Joker in the Batman movie. Besides, he apologized. Marco, Heavymetal , 777236ER- think of
77 NormalSpeed : I'm sure you've all had this explained to you several times by now (heaven forbid you actually listen this time!) so I'll be brief. The actual will of
78 Mirrodie : Actually normal Speed, if memory serves correct, Mary, Jesus' mother was also free of sin, no?
79 777236ER : The blame is on the feet of those who err? But as a direct result of the birth of Jesus, countless people have died. How is it not his fault?
80 Post contains images ADG : Actually normal Speed, if memory serves correct, Mary, Jesus' mother was also free of sin, no? and how many pregnant *virgins* have used *that* excuse
81 Hepkat : According to Catholic teaching, the Virgin Mary was not born free of sin. She was sanctified, i.e., all her sins taken away and made holy, shortly bef
82 Ts-ior : Jesus is not to blame at all !!! We,Muslims,and i personally enjoy all the Quran verses that talk about Jesus and his mother Mary.
83 Lehpron : Marco, Marco, Marco. "I was condemning those who weren't respecting my faith, because we live in a civilized and democratic society, where everyone sh
84 Post contains images Marco : Heavymetal, It's an innocent expression here in the states. Apologies if you didnt know that. Apology accepted. By the way 6 billion people live outsi
85 Heavymetal : I don't really see what you're getting at. Can you clarify yourself? Just to clarify..... Jeez, where have I heard that before.
86 NormalSpeed : Mirrodie: "Actually normal Speed, if memory serves correct, Mary, Jesus' mother was also free of sin, no?" Perhaps in Catholicism. I'm not Catholic. 7
87 Post contains images Beefmoney : Wow. My computer was down for a day or so, so I havent been able to check up on the thread for a while, but now that I have........Ive decided to go w
88 Hepkat : Marco, it's not enough to be convinced of the rightness of one's own beliefs and experiences. The enlightened individual is that person capable of ste
89 777236ER : I corrected a whole chapter of the Genesis which he has mis-interpreted EXACTLY. The Bible can be mis-interpreted, as can the birth of Jesus/Christ! H
90 Marco : Hepkat, I do that all the time. It's sometimes the prejudices that people have against Christians that prevent them from seeing that. 777236ER, I was
91 777236ER : I wouldn't take things out of context if they made sense. "Thou shalt not kill"....yet god kills ALL of humanity save 2 people! Not to mention an eye
92 Redngold : Sorry to join in this debate so late... I will post some answers when I have time at the end of the day. God bless you all for now, and I'll be back s
93 Post contains images Heavymetal : Angels and ministers of grace defend us.
94 AC320 : I thought I would clarify some things about Judaism that people have been tossing back and forth in their arguments. First of all ual 777 contraIL sai
95 Mirrodie : The power of Christ compels you! The Power of Christ compels YOU!! The Exorcist. Sick movie, eh? Ok, so after all that talk, in a nutshell, I guess Je
96 Redngold : 777236ER said: I wouldn't take things out of context if they made sense. "Thou shalt not kill"....yet god kills ALL of humanity save 2 people! Not to
97 Post contains links and images Lehpron : Marco we need to talk but since your email is withheld, please go to my profile and email me. I have neglected parts in my post just for you. Realizin
98 Marco : Marco we need to talk but since your email is withheld, please go to my profile and email me. I have neglected parts in my post just for you. Post the
99 Post contains links Ts-ior : If you want to precise your idea about Jesus,Christianism,Judaism,and Islam,try this link : http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran/ It is an English tr
100 AC320 : How does the Koran help us be precise about Jesus, Christianity, and Judaism? It would only help us understand Islam and its relationship to the other
101 Us330 : Marco, I hate to burst your bubble here, but a fetus, while it may be a life, it is not a human life. Rather, a fetus resembles a parasite. Here is th
102 ONT 737 : "Marco, I hate to burst your bubble here, but a fetus, while it may be a life, it is not a human life. Rather, a fetus resembles a parasite.... An org
103 Us330 : ONT_737: I agree with you. Realistically, any life form is a parasite to something else.
104 Post contains images ONT 737 : Yes, humans, babys, and fetus fit the general definition of a "parasite". However, I would never in 100 years ask a pregnant woman if she knows if her
105 Mirrodie : As you may have already seen, I am merely playing the part of the casual observer. One observation: I believe Marco was making a point about killing:
106 Post contains images Jessman : US330; A parasite is a living organism; even if you want to go down the path of calling a human fetus a parasite you acknowledge the fact that an abor
107 Post contains images Lehpron : To everyone: Is it me or does it seem that Marco doesn't seem interested in “_________”? To Marco: Note that I put a blank there which means that
108 Post contains images Beefmoney : I know I said I wouldnt contribute to this thread anymore, but I guess I have another thing to say. As you could probably guess, I also believe that a
109 Us330 : Jessman, I acknowledge the fetus is living, but according to my beliefs, it is not yet a person. When the fetus takes its first breath outside of the
110 Jessman : Us330; You acknowledge that it is living. I don't have to tell you that it's DNA says that it is human. It is a living homo-sapien; how can it not be
111 Us330 : Like I said, personal beliefs. If you want to get right down to it, a fetus can be considered an organ: an organ has human dna, and it is also alive,
112 Marco : Mirrodie, You know what I mean. Killing someone intentionally, who isn't a threat to you, is wrong. If you're in such a situation, then it's self defe
113 Jessman : US330 An organ doesn't have different DNA from the host. It doesn't carry out all functions necessary to be considered a life separate from the host.
114 Jessman : Also no sane person has an organ removed unless there is serious life-threatening problems with said organ. Very few fetuses cause life-threatening ha
115 Mirrodie : "Killing someone intentionally, who isn't a threat to you, is wrong" The problem is that many religious zealots can make an arguement for "threats" ag
116 Us330 : Jessman, I think you and I are talking about two different kinds of life: I am referring to the biological definition (ie, cell division), while you a
117 Jessman : It may not "breathe" the same as a fully developed human, but it still carries out gas exchange. It takes in oxygen and releases carbon dioxide. It do
118 Marco : And I've acknowlg edged that zealots like that exist. I'm not denying their existence, but killing someone because he doesn't believe in what you do i
119 Ts-ior : AC320, Quran tells the stories of Mose and the Israelis as well as the stories of Jesus,his mother,the Jews,and you may read it in order to see what
120 777236ER : You know what I mean. Killing someone intentionally, who isn't a threat to you, is wrong. If you're in such a situation, then it's self defense and it
121 Marco : And now you're putting your own stance on the Bible. I read the bible, it says "thou shall not kill". No self-defence crap. YOU'VE decided that killin
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