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For National(Lookout! Religious Debate!)  
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 782 times:

From National_757 on another thread:

Heavymetal, honestly why do you have to bash religion time after time? I mean, every other post I read that you posted has something to do with bashing religion. I'm not one of those "brainwashed nuts" but I do believe in God. I mean, if I ever made constant remarks about those "poor, sad fags" you wouldn't like that very much. Can't you respect a person's right to believe in religion without bashing it time after time just like I respect your sexual preferences?

Seriously, gimmie a break


What I "bash", National, is hypocrisy. Or, since we're all infected with a touch of that now and then, how about "unremorseful, highly polished" hypocrisy. I'll bash till my last breath any tyranny over the mind of man (thanks Tom Jefferson for that one). And it just so happens that these days I find the most abhorent tyranny and polished, effective hypocrisy lurking under the eaves of religion....not FAITH mind you, but religion.

I'll be the first to admit I generalize. But lately it's getting tough not to. Suicide hijackers. Molesting priests. Swarmy televangelists who hold sway over US laws the AFFECT ME. I don't doubt there's millions upon millions of good decent centered religious people packing the churches, temples, mosques, shrines....whatever...of the world every day. But they aren't the loudest ones, alas. (Probably what makes em so decent). The loudest ones are the demagogues and the hypocrites. The ones who get rich. Get powerful. Wield that power in un-Godly ways. Replace God's true law...which I believe is quite possibly the simplest, easiest to live by guideline in existence... with themselves and their concrete, complicated, self-serving beliefs.

This may floor you, my friend, but I believe in God too. I even believe Jesus Christ was a divinely inspired and guided soul walking the Earth. That's FAITH. It may even be FAITH when I go looking for someone who believes what I believe. But when the two of us go looking for people who DON'T believe what we believe.....that's RELIGION, in my opinion. At least the brand that seems so visible in this new century.

Someone called me "bitter" on another thread. Guilty as charged. I am bitter. I'm living in the dawn of a new millenium...we have the technology, the know-how, the motivation to reach out beyond this rock in space, to explore not only the universe, but our own existence....new medicines, new energy sources, new modes of transport, New York to Tokyo in three hours, new ways to go out and see the world we live on......all that SHOULD be happening......

....but it isn't. Instead I've got to wonder what the next "Breaking News" horror will be. Instead I've got to wake up and watch people plunge 100 stories on fire, read about teenagers getting blown apart in pizza parlors, 12 year olds getting machine gunned next to their fathers, gay kids getting kicked out of their houses, babies getting "lost" or murdered in a state foster care system that doesn't allow non-Leviticus approved parents to care for them, public schools getting milked out of their funds, billionaires getting atrocious tax breaks just because they call their for-profit business a "church"...on and on and on. And what do all of these things have in common?

A good chunk of my country honestly believes there's gonna be some apocalyptic battle before Jesus 'comes back'. I think it's pure , unadulturated Grade A , chef's select bunk. Yet now, they seem hell bent on triggering the events that will make it happen. So now does that mean I have to go along on their ride? To echo those swingin' Sixties, Hell no, I wont go.

I guess I just happen to think the foulest things in this bassackwards century so far are being done in God's name. And religious passion combined with secular technology is just way too breathtakingly ominous, I mean honest-to-God end of the world ominous. So we invade Iraq tommorow? Find ten bombs. Twenty. Ace, the genie is out of the bottle....someday, somewhere, that fissionable material sitting in the heart of a nuclear device is GOING to find its' way into the hands of people who are convinced God told them to use it. So as I see it, we as a species have a choice. Either we get a grip on the technology, and THAT doesnt look real do-able. Or we get a grip on the passion. Drill past all the scriptural fiction to find some reason and logic. Remind ourselves that God's most holy gift is simplicity. And above all work together to recognize and deal with our cancers, be they hidden away in a Bagdad bunker or in a Lynchburg Virginia tv studio caked in makeup on CNN.

I hear SO MANY people invoking God's name and screaming "this is right!" When I hear a few more of them saying "I was wrong." Then I'll lay off.

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 763 times:

Hey Heavymetal, ummm, If you dont mind me asking, it caught my attention that you said that you believe in what the Bible says about Jesus, that He "was devinely inspired, and a guided soul" as you put it. But you do not believe that there will be an armageddon (sp?)? Armageddon meaning the final, all out war between good and evil, which according to the Bible will take place near the city of Megiddo (sp?). Both of those things, Jesus and armageddon, are talked about in the bible as happening and going to happen, but why do you believe one and not the other?

I probably should not have brought that up, now that I realize that its straying from the intended path of the thread, but it just caught my eye.

Michael Hawkins


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 753 times:

Michael

Thank you in the first post on the thread for so brilliantly summing up what
I was trying to say....

but why do you believe one and not the other?

With respect, WHY....do you care?

If it works for me, isn't it enough? Or not?


User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 737 times:

Well, I am not trying to get you to believe anything. I just found it interesting that you only believe one of the two. Its like reading a menu at a restaraunt that says "the pizza is great, and so is the pasta." and saying "I believe it when the chef says that the pizza is great, but I find it hard to beleive that the pasta is great aswell." Where have you found evidence that the Bible is telling the truth about one, and not the other?

I am just curious, thats all. I dont need to know, and you dont need to tell me. I really do not care if you believe one way or another. I just found it compelling, thats all.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 727 times:

Michael one more thing, you were kind enough to offer an opinion and I didnt mean that first response to seem like an ambush....I'll detail...you said:

you said that you believe in what the Bible says about Jesus

Not what I typed at all. The Bible "says" nothing to me. Jesus was doing the talking, not the Bible. If I have to frame my beliefs within "the Bible says"....then God's intentions are coming at me in one helluva long route...God says what He told to the authors what they told to the Bible what the Bible tells me...just too many middle-men for my own relationship with the Almighty.
Joha, the big fish, the she bears, the Old Testament hygiene gobblygook, Armageddon, "Rapture"(actually not IN the Bible. On the lips of one helluva lot of 'Bible Believers'...or paranoid delusionists...but not IN the Bible)....all that stuff I gotta tell you, I have my doubts. For all I know we're looking at the Roman era version of a made for tv movie. Ten Commandments? Well, they pass my 'simple' test so I'm fairly certain their a good source of mental nutrients. Jesus? Some pretty cool ideas. Did he come up with em? Not sure. Did he say 'em verbatim? Unknown. Was there even a Jesus? Wasn't there, couldn't tell ya. But my OWN answers to those questions are what forms MY faith. How possibly could I expect anyone else to understand that faith as I see it...much less SIGN ON to that faith?


User currently offlineLeftypilot79 From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 455 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 725 times:

Thanks Heavymetal,

That was very well written. Everything I have witnessed for the "better" has been done under GODs name. Its BS. Period. Jesus didn't go out teaching about tooting your own horn, and making a HUGE DEAL about it. If we look at Jesus teachings, they do fall more along the line of Buddha. I bet they would have been friends. They shared the same simplicity, and love for people. Religion is almost a handicap for people just to follow because they are scared to take a honest look at themselves. Its that something to grab onto. And yes..it does help alot of people. But Faith is the key. Its hard to admit your own mistakes, and face your deepest darkest fears. But...thats what Jesus, and Buddha did, and thats why they were enlightened. The real CHRISTIANS are the ones who let you know they are christian, or who preach to you. NO....the real Christians are the ones who don't say a word about their christianity at all. They go about their day unassuming, and just treat people GOOD. They take the teachings to heart. And when people meet them, they see a good person, enough being around them. If they want to know more about religion they can ask if they are curious. And this doing stuff in GODS name thing. Its just a COP OUT.

aaron



User currently offlineBeefmoney From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1116 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 714 times:

Hey Heavymetal, thank you for you respectful and intelligent response. I respect your views and opinions, and thats why I will leave it at this, and not add anything else.

sooooo, have a nice day Smile
Michael Hawkins


User currently offlineNational_757 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 702 times:

Whoa Heavymetal, first off, before saying anything else, I have never seen someone on this board who I've disagreed with come up with such an intelligent response. And I actually agree with most of your post. I failed before to see the difference between FAITH and Religion. You know, there is this one religious guy by the name of Benny Hinn. I've watched a few of his shows. It's basically acting. He performs "miracles" (which are so phony) and then asks people to give him and his network (TBN) money. That's not right. I have strong faith in god though, but I don't believe giving this fool money will help me one bit.

Leftypilot79:
the real Christians are the ones who don't say a word about their Christianity at all. They go about their day unassuming, and just treat people GOOD. They take the teachings to heart. And when people meet them, they see a good person, enough being around them. If they want to know more about religion they can ask if they are curious

There ya go. I agree with that. That was well written.  Big thumbs up



User currently offlineCtbarnes From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3491 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (11 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 690 times:

All I can say on this subject is to quote the poet Kathleen Norris when someone asked her how she can be a part of a church that displays such hypocracy:

"I am the only hypocrite I need to worry about in the Church."

Charles, SJ



The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
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