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Disturbing News About Turkey  
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1174 times:

A recent article in the Economist ranks 15 developing nations according to their political and economic stability. Developed by Lehman Brothers and the consulting firm Eurasia Group, the list "tries to measure a country's ability to withstand crises and to avoid generating them."
Ranked from most to least stable, the nations are Hungary, Poland, Mexico, Thailand, South Africa, Brazil, China, Russia, Philippines, Egypt, Argentina, Colombia, Turkey, Venezuela, Indonesia.
My first thoughts on seeing the list was that Hungary and Poland seem to be doing a good job of integrating themselves into the Western world, with their high rankings. I also was surprised that Mexico was doing so well. But then a more disturbing thing became apparent. Turkey is a vitally important nation in today's world, being a bridge between West and East, and also can serve as a role model for the Muslim world, being able to combine freedom and democracy with adherence to Islam. Yet this list shows Turkey doing very poorly as far as political and economic stability is concerned, ranking below Egypt (a far poorer nation), Argentina (beset by financial crises) and Colombia (a nation long on the verge of anarchy). This can't be good news.


"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 1088 times:

this list shows Turkey doing very poorly as far as political and economic stability is concerned

All the more reason for the EU to move VERY slowly on any consideration of Turkish entry to the EU. Clearly, they are no where near ready.

Turkey is a vitally important nation in today's world, being a bridge between West and East

Yes and no. As far as the Western world is considered, Turkey does not figure prominently on the world stage economically or politically. They are a large but marginal country with limited influence and power.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 996 times:

Wow, Turkey in worse shape then Egypt. That's very disheartening.

We really need to Turkey to get its act together PROSA you right. Turkey is a very important bridge between the western world and the Islamic middle east.

Too bad.
TNNH


User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 989 times:

Turkey's low ranking must be as a result of the continued dominance of the military in political life. The country is really run by the council of national security (sic) which must approve all laws and interpret the constitution. 4 of 12 members are military officers. The army also has a habit of stepping in to restore order i.e. no Islamic parties in the government.

It's not as bad as you make out, none of those countries you listed are prone to revolution and have reasonably secure institutions. Your comment about Colombia being close to anarchy is nonsense.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 983 times:

Turkey's low ranking must be as a result of the continued dominance of the military in political life. The country is really run by the council of national security (sic) which must approve all laws and interpret the constitution. 4 of 12 members are military officers. The army also has a habit of stepping in to restore order i.e. no Islamic parties in the government.

Yet Turkey ranks below China and Egypt, two countries that don't bother even pretending to be democracies.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 981 times:

The survey is about stability not democracy, North Korea for example is an extremely stable government.

Stability refers to the soundness of state institutions and the rule of law. It says nothing about the quality of those institutions or laws. Italy is a democracy but until recently it was extremely unstable for almost 50 years.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 974 times:

The survey is about stability not democracy, North Korea for example is an extremely stable government.
Stability refers to the soundness of state institutions and the rule of law. It says nothing about the quality of those institutions or laws. Italy is a democracy but until recently it was extremely unstable for almost 50 years.


You are correct. However, the willingness of Turkey's military to prevent things from getting out of hand should increase the nation's stability. Moreover, the three countries ahead of Turkey on the list - Egypt, Argentina and Colombia - are not stable by any standards. A violent overthrow of the government in any of them would come as no surprise.
My theory, speaking as an American, is that people in the United States, and to a lesser extent in other western nations, desperately want Turkey to remain stable and democratic due to its great geopolitical importance. A military coup or even a civil war in, say, Colombia would not have significant consequences elsewhere and wouldn't raise disturbing questions. A military takeover, or, far worse, an Islamic fundamentalist revolution in Turkey would be a severe blow to everyone's hopes, as it would be all the much harder to reconcile Islam with democracy. We need Turkey, very much.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineWing From Turkey, joined Oct 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 885 times:

Hi,
The unstability of politics is largely because of the huge economic crisis.Country is passing through its worst economical times since it is founded.With nearly 100 billion dollars of debt inside and outside countries.The government is only trying to pay the debts by loaning money from other sources which causes the total debt gets bigger and bigger.In the 1991 Gulf war Turkey was the second loser after Iraq although it was at the winning side. Iraq was the one of the biggest markets of Turkey,addition to that the oil of Iraq largely distributed from Turkish Ports in the eastern maditerenean,this huge portion of income for the economy was cut since 1991 because of embargo.Also since 1991 there was European supported ethnic terror on the southeastern region of the country causing more than 35000 human lives and billions of military spending for more than 20 years.That terror got intense after Gulf war as the Iraq army was forced south leaving a huge uncontrolled terrain,a heaven for the terrorist to be based.Terrorism also effected(actually almost stopped)tourism which was the last and biggest income sources of the economy.
These huge amount of expenditures are combined with bad influences of the politicians and following the Asia markets crisis Turkish economy collapsed.Unemployement reached up to millions.
The people who were living a normal life are now struggling to find money to eat at least dinner at night and thinking that the only reason that normal life is interrupted is because of the western supprted political parties.Although it is a Muslim country Turkey always was different from the rest of the Arab and Muslim countries.Fundementalist Islam was never passed the more than 5% average of all the population which is marginal.Turkey always followed the footsteps of its great founder Mustafa Kemal Atatürk showed the democracy is the best way of governing and religion must not be interracted with the politics.Thats the biggest difference of Turkey other than Arabic Muslim world.But this bridge type politic and geopolitic situation was not liket by no one.Europeans never accepted Turkey as "one of them" as it is a muslim country and doesn't belong to the "club",yet the the rest of the Muslim world is accused Turkey not being "enough Muslim"since Atatürk brought the western rules.The National security counsil may seem "undemocratic"especially the soldiers involving the policy from the outside but its very different when you look from inside.Thas someway that the regime protects itself not against the outsiders but from the insiders.Unfortunate but its true.Army is the biggest insurance of Turkish regime against every kind of extremism.It will be that way until we learn to live democracy as it is supposed to be.
The unstability will not be forever.Hopefully bad economy will not be forever too.But now a possible Iraq operation will not help at all,in addition to that a possible arming of the Kurdish groups for ground operations will cause these groups to dream about having a country inside Iraq and Turkish soil will bring more than unstability since Turkey considers such act as reason for war.
USA is the biggest ally of Turkey for a long time.Unfortunately We depend on US economically and its support for EU membership, US needs Turkey strategically.



Widen your world
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 878 times:
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We must not forget Turkey. It is the only muslim country where people have some sort of freedom as opposed to strict regimes like Saudi Arabia. Turkey is much more pro-western than any other muslim nation, and ofcourse it's a valuable ally for the US.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8197 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 858 times:

There are other Islamic nations which enjoy plenty of freedom for their people, ie Malaysia, Lebanon, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco et al. Maybe even Indonesia, not a stable nation by any stretch but you don't see women covering themselves up like in Saudi Arabia, or barred from work, public office or education. I'm not even sure if women are allowed to drive in Saudi.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 831 times:

A military coup or even a civil war in, say, Colombia would not have significant consequences elsewhere and wouldn't raise disturbing questions. A military takeover, or, far worse, an Islamic fundamentalist revolution in Turkey would be a severe blow to everyone's hopes, as it would be all the much harder to reconcile Islam with democracy. We need Turkey, very much.

Yup! Right on PRosa.

Cedar - Jordan is a great ally of the US in the mideast and a friend of Israel -- but it is not a country known for the progressive freedom for its royal subjects. That said I hold Jordan in high regard and hope that this shortcoming is reversed in the coming years. Jordan has the potential to be a great model for the Arab mideast. And Palestine soon.

TNNH


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 809 times:

Jordan is a great ally of the US in the mideast and a friend of Israel -- but it is not a country known for the progressive freedom for its royal subjects. That said I hold Jordan in high regard and hope that this shortcoming is reversed in the coming years. Jordan has the potential to be a great model for the Arab mideast. And Palestine soon.

Dunno if this is absolute truth, but I've heard that although King Abdullah is very pro-United States, the Jordanian people by and large hate the United States.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 792 times:

I've heard that although King Abdullah is very pro-United States, the Jordanian people by and large hate the United States.

I think this is accurate. However, Jordan's record on human rights, democracy, freedom of speech & association are very poor.....they only look "reasonable" when in comparison to its neighbours Saudi Arabia, Syria & Iraq.

Let's not kid ourselves.....Jordan is hardly an oasis of freedom & prosperity in the MidEast..




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 789 times:

There are other Islamic nations which enjoy plenty of freedom for their people, ie Malaysia, Lebanon

Get your information right. Lebanon is NOT an Islamic country. The power in the country is split evenly between the Christians and the two sects of Muslims (Shi'ites and Sunni's). The president HAS to be a Christian, while the prime minister HAS to be a sunni Muslim and the head of the parliament HAS to be a shi'ite Muslim. That way the power is evenly shared between all religions.



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 787 times:

Jordan is hardly an oasis of freedom & prosperity in the MidEast..

Hardly. But look at what your comparing Jordan too - by and large the world's most embarrasing collection of failed societies.

the Jordanian people by and large hate the United States.

That's because over 75% of Jordan are Palestinians - and the Palestinians are just a despondent mass of angry bitter people. Can you blame them? In recent history they've faield at every achievement they ever tried to undertake - and now they have no state, no society, no prosperity, and no future. So what do they do? Attempt to destroy their two neighbors: Jordan and Israel.

Considering that - Jordan and the Hashemites should be proud they've made it this far. Although - it is the Jordanian monarch whose family has lost every Muslim holy city it ever ruled - Mecca/Medina to the Saudis and Jerusalem to the Israelis. Sucks for them!

TNNH


User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 785 times:

There are other Islamic nations which enjoy plenty of freedom for their people, ie Malaysia, Lebanon, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco et al.

Malaysia may be a stable country, but it's government has a history of stirring up tensions between Malays and the sizable Chinese population that lives there.


User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 781 times:

Turkey has been declared non-European by some European MP, and not suitable for member ship in EU, also a pro-Islamic party has won the countrys elections in majority for the first time.


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 760 times:

Turkey has been declared non-European by some European MP

Sounds appropriate. Turkey IS non-European.

Europe should be mature enough to say to Turkey that their non-Euro background and Muslim culture make them incompatible with the EU but we would like to be good friends. Nothing wrong with that.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 752 times:

Europe should be mature enough to say to Turkey that their non-Euro background and Muslim culture make them incompatible with the EU but we would like to be good friends. Nothing wrong with that.

That would be the best solution for everyone. Unfortunately, the EU leaders don't have enough intestinal fortitude to come out and actually say "no." Instead, they shilly-shally around, making themselves look like weaklings in the process.



"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 680 times:

Prosa, you are right

A few days ago Valery Giscard d'Estaing, the man who chairs the convention mapping out a strategic vision for the EU, said:

"Turkey is a nation close to Europe and an important country... but it is not a European country," he told the French newspaper Le Monde. "Its capital is not in Europe, 95 percent of its population is outside Europe."

The former French president said the EU should stop at the continent's borders. If not, he said: "I give my opinion: it is the end of the European Union."

I could not agree more...

Interesting thing is that, according to Reuters news agency, Giscard's opinion furiated only Turkey. EU officials silently agreed. In some cases they applaused, just like Corrado Pirzio-Biroli, who is chief of staff to Agriculture Commissioner Franz Fischler: "In my view, Mr Giscard d'Estaing is right and has a sense of history, and it would be devastating if his view was not heeded,"

Kostas





Kostas




User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 685 times:

Wing

since 1991 there was European supported ethnic terror on the southeastern region of the country

Excuse me????? European supported??????????

As you can see here, no European (or else) user bothered to answer you. Maybe because of your looooooong post. Nobody reads so long posts.

But (apart for me being a mazochist who reads long posts) one of the thing that really bothers me is people who are blind to their governments own actions and who accuse conveniently "the Europe" for their "ethnic unease" if I want to be polite enough.

The funny thing is that the biggest supporter of Turkey in their effort to join EU is the USA who continually presses EU to accept Turkey as a member. LOL!!! In 50 years maybe.



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