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We Are America  
User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 820 times:

I am completely against the war in Iraq, and war in general unless obviously warranted (e.g. stopping Hitler etc.). I will admit that America over the course of the years has made many poor foreign policy decisions, mainly because of the Cold War. I despise the hardlining conservative government in my country currently, and I thinkt that Bush will send this country to hell in a handbasket if he goes unchecked. His foreign policy is also severely flawed.

All that stated, I must say that I am astonished and extremely upset by the continuing rise of anti-Americanism on these boards, especially after reading Indianguy's post comparing American foriegn policy to colonialism. My blood also boils when I hear people say that it's America's own fault that 9/11 occured along with the Islamic hatred of America.

Yes, our support of Israel is wrong and should not be continued, but that is not the issue of this thread. I will say that the idea of a utopian Jewish state in their ancient homeland is a bit of a far fetched pipe dream, especially when native peoples (the Palestinians) were displaced. However, it is known that Israel has gone far astray from the US. The moving of the capital to Jerusalem is an example.

I don't like to make generalizations, but a majority of Islamic countries around the world are poor. When a nation is poor and living in generally bad conditions, propaganda is easily swallowed. This is how Hitler took control of Germany. This is what Al Qaeda et al has done to the Islamic world, except they direct their hatred toward the west, mainly America, using the Israel/Palestine issue much as Hitler used the shame from the treaty of Versailles to rally up the people.

All over the Islamic world, such things are happening, and America is the enemy. Why? We support Israel, and we are wealthy. I'd love to see America pull our heads out of our asses and cut all ties to Israel and see what Osama would do. He'd probably shit in his pants because then he would have no real reason to hate the US, and no propaganda to use. If he really cared about the Palestinians, he'd be deploying his forces in Israel, not against the US. He'd be in Palestine fighting with the Palestinians.

As for our currently foreign policy, what Indianguy refers to as imperialism, it is only expected. America has always promoted democracy. So in Pakistan, when radical militant Islamic peoples are teaching poor Pakestani children the ways of jihad in the notorious madrases, are we supposed to just sit back? Of course not! We intervene so that the Pakistanis can get a real education in fields such as math, science, and technology so that they can use such knowledge to improve their nation. Europe and America did more harm than good when simply ignoring Hitler and allowing his Hitler Youth et al to breed radicals.

We are America. Unfortunately, we are the target of most of the world's hatred. Why? Those who have always hate those who have little. So before one of you posts something else that's anti-american relating to terrorism etc, think twice. Most who hate my dear country have not even seen it in person; their only knowledge of my country is propaganda learned from fanatics. We have our flaws, but so does every nation. None is perfect. Yes, we have poverty, corrupt politicians, but who doesn't? So before you open your mouth and let the anti-American rhetoric spew like a ruptured pipe, think for a second.

We are America.

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHole_courtney From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 569 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (11 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 804 times:

I think the main issue here, is that the issue is too big to comprehend on an internet message board.

Case in point: Hitler's rise to power. Sure, it's generally understood that Germans were poor and Hitler's message suited them well. Although that does convey fact, does it explain the huge history of German nationalism, even before the time of Bismarck? Do you see debate over whether the coalition forged by Hitler with many conservative parties caused his rise to power? Does anyone ever mention the ailing health of Paul von Hindenburg, which could have led to a sickly decision to make Hitler Chancellor on 30 January 1933? These facts and arguments barely scratch the surface of the Nazi movement, much less explain the events after 1 September 1939.

The point here is that the issue is more than a few paragraphs on a message board. And that's not to say it shouldn't be discussed. Discussion is the root of solidarity, and commonality and peace. What should be understood, then, is that we DON'T know all the answers. Although we have opinions, we DON'T know every side of the story. We certainly would like to believe that because we watch the news or read a newspaper that we're informed, but the truth is we're not. (myself definitely included, I'm not judging.)

To use an analogy, consider the information we do get from mediums other than scholarly sources. It's akin to going to a party and being introduced to 30 different people in a certain period of time. We may meet a lot of people, and say that we remember Bob Smith or Patty Jones, but do we know the history behind these people? No, of course we don't. The same is true for the information we receive. I like to think I know much about Nazi Germany because I read many books on the subject and immerse myself in it. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination (I'm only 20 anyhow) but I like to think I know more than the basics.

None of us here (I'm assuming for the sake of argument) are scholars on Middle Eastern politics, or even American politics for that matter. While it's good that we're discussing these issues, I think we need to make a more conscious effort to learn more about our arguments and to concede when we don't have enough information. Maybe it's a little utopian to think in such a way, but I think I have a legitimate point.

Anyhow,
live forever and stay beautiful,
hole_courtney



"[He] knew everything about literature, except how to enjoy it." - Yossarian, Catch 22
User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 766 times:

I think one of the main problems on this board which lead to many anti-american debates and Boeing versus Airbus wars is a matter of age and language.

As English is the only language being used on this board, the average age of most of the non-american posters whose own language is not English is most probably considerably higher than the average age of the american posters.

I believe that many of the reasons which lead to anti-americanism on a.net, such as arrogancy, are directly or indirectly related to this problem.

Just my 2 cents ...



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29802 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 762 times:

That may be right Schoenorama, but one of the big anti-americans on this site, who will be nameless is from Austrailia, and I think that she probably would have learned pretty good english down there.

If only they would stop calling it a barbi.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineSSTjumbo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 750 times:

Just to touch on one issue, I think that Israel is an issue driving Osama to hate America, but if we cut all ties with them, Osama's attitude toward America would not change a bit. I don't know the reason why, but no matter what we do, Osama will always be at war with us as long as our name is known. That's just my opinion though.

Cheers
Mike


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 690 times:

Cba.......His (Bush's) foreign policy is also severely flawed.

Isn't this a rather presumptuous statement for a high school student to make? OK, you don't like Bush, many people feel the same way, but what do you know about foreign policy?

What makes you so sure that Bush wants to lead the US into a war? Have you noticed in the past few months he managed to forge a coalition that had enough clout to make Saddam agree to UN inspections? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, Bush may be smart enough to know that a credible threat of war may avert war?

Mr. Pete





User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 686 times:

I agree with you except for one point in your post. Even if the USA stops supporting Israel, it will not stop the terrorist attacks against us or around the world. Its not just the U.S. that's being attacked, its French, Russians, Australians, Indonesians, Phillipinos, etc.

Last week I posted a part of an article where Al-Qaeda said they would not stop attacking the U.S. until we converted to Islam. So the solution to end terrorism is much more complicated than just saying "Stop Supporting Israel."




NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 660 times:

Isn't this a rather presumptuous statement for a high school student to make?

Pete, presumptuous yes, unless of course you are a teenage member of airliners.net where you are privy to the inner workings and the ins and outs of U.S., Foreign, and World Policy.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 648 times:

CBA,

I read your piece and wish to comment. Though I disagree with some of your political views, I will confine my statements to issues of this board and some of it's participants (without naming names). You said:

"Discussion is the root of solidarity, and commonality and peace"

Perhaps in a perfect world. Discussion will work with an open mind, diplomacy and mutual respect. Unfortunately, these aspects astondingly lacking in many particpants of this board. Prejudice, bordering on seething hatred and discrimination are a major problem, fed by a lack of knowledge, familial/parental/regional preconceptions, arrogance, ethnocentrism and even by leaders of certain countries (Germany and Canada in particular) along with plain old closedmindedness all lead to a gross misconception and hatred of the United States, it's peoples and it's society. As an American citizen, I am appalled that anyone would try to justify 9/11. I invite anyone to come to my city and see the hole in the ground and the pictures of aquaintences I have lost. Nothing justifies this type of violence, and the ones who try to jusitfy it disgust me just as much as those who did it. Advocacy of cowardice and beligerance on this scale can never be justified. The United States is not perfect. We make mistakes, but pride ourselves in democracy and fairness and always try to strive for those goals. I also think we are better at it than many other places and that is an undisputable fact, not arrogance. Discussing and questioning US initiatives is one thing and always open to discussion, however, "flaming", libeling and making baseless accusations not based in fact is assinine and not worth any kind of reply.

And as it appears all the discussions I have seen still have the same participants here still trying to justify or place blame many times over--an indicator of how even in free form discussions on something as neutral as Airliners.net cannot open a closed mind. Aside from justification of 9/11, charges of imperialism, hegemony, arrogance are also directed at the US. This goes beyond an understanding of English, educational background or what country we may be from. What it is is a lack of decency and mutual respect.

I don't claim to be an expert in anything, and I don't think anyone does. We come here to speak our minds and debate. The more mature participants, no matter how divergent in point of view end up having worthwhile discussions comparing and contrasting points of view and offering insights into issues of the day, some of us will cite articles, books or links to substantiate our points of view. Some of us can speak from personal experience (I could speak about cancer, computers, statistics and Northwest since I have experienced all of those and have degrees in Mathemtics and computers). I have had many debates rewarding debates with people who have helped me explore different points of view and gain information if I am incorrect.

Other participants, however, only look to "start a fire" and run. It is one thing to make a post that is factually wrong. It is another to post something that is obviously "flamebait" and that is where the problems start and then it turns into war. That is the caveat of discussion boards and in my opinion if you can refute the post do it without being rude and if it turns messy, ignore it completely or suggest it be deleted.


747-451


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 636 times:

"Isn't this a rather presumptuous statement for a high school student to make?"

Pete, presumptuous yes, unless of course you are a teenage member of airliners.net where you are privy to the inner workings and the ins and outs of U.S., Foreign, and World Policy."

As well as the intimate business affairs of United Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, Boeing, Airbus, Pratt and Whitney, General Electric and Rolls Royce.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 630 times:

Pete, presumptuous yes, unless of course you are a teenage member of airliners.net where you are privy to the inner workings and the ins and outs of U.S., Foreign, and World Policy."

As well as the intimate business affairs of United Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, Boeing, Airbus, Pratt and Whitney, General Electric and Rolls Royce.


Hehehe....Perhaps Mr. Cba is ready to be a Beltway Consultant in Foreign Policy & Airline Management.

Pete  Smile


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 624 times:

First of all, I do have a good knowledge of the foreign policy of the United States over the past century, though mainly after WWII during the Cold War where we adopted a policy that essentially dictated that an enemy of the Russians was our friend. I heavily disagree with such a policy, as it lead us to make deals with none other than Osama himself.

"Pete, presumptuous yes, unless of course you are a teenage member of airliners.net where you are privy to the inner workings and the ins and outs of U.S., Foreign, and World Policy."

"As well as the intimate business affairs of United Airlines, Lufthansa, KLM, JAL, Boeing, Airbus, Pratt and Whitney, General Electric and Rolls Royce."

"Hehehe....Perhaps Mr. Cba is ready to be a Beltway Consultant in Foreign Policy & Airline Management."


I resent such comments. First of all, I have never in my history on these boards (over 2 years) tried to be an armchair CEO. And yes, I do know enough about foriegn affairs and politics to say that I do disagree with our current foreign policy. I read the news, I keep up with things.

"I agree with you except for one point in your post. Even if the USA stops supporting Israel, it will not stop the terrorist attacks against us or around the world. Its not just the U.S. that's being attacked, its French, Russians, Australians, Indonesians, Phillipinos, etc."

If you read my post carefully, you will see that I stated that Osama just uses Israel as an excuse to hate the USA and a form of propaganda to use against the West.

Now, continuing to the intended point of my post which seems to be overlooked. Though the USA has made her mistakes, I am thoroughly disgusted with the amount of anti-Americanism. It seems that people are just looking for a reason to jump aboard the 'I Hate America' bandwagon.


User currently offlineB747forlife From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 392 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 618 times:

I believe the Bush Administration's foreign policy is great. Hussein has proved himself to be a horrible person, who is looking out only for himself, and most assuredly has or is trying to get (even with the UN SC resolution) WMD. Just look back at the reason for the Gulf War, he attacked the Kuwaiti with biological weapons, and his own people. He is an absolute dictator, and as most people know, authoritarian governments do not work.

On to Israel, perhaps we have supported them a bit more than nescessary, but they are fully justified in occupying Palestine. Palestine has shown time after time that they cannot and do not wish to be trusted. So, perhaps Israel was just created in their land, they should not resort to such disgusting acts of violence as suicide bombing. Israel has a right to protect herself as a sovereign nation.

No, if we were to cut all defense ties with Israel, Osama would not leave us alone. He hates us because we promote freedom, free will, free thinking, women's rights, and general moral good throughout the world. We are powerful, we are rich, and what's more we know it. That is the reason Osama hates us, not because of Israel. Israel may be an extra factor in him targeting us, but the main reason is: we are a free country, which is obviously full of infidels.

I've said it before. If you hate America. Hate it, that is fine with me. You don't need to come here and enjoy the freedom we have. Or enjoy the beautiful scenery, or whatever. You can hate us, but don't tell us every damn day. Its all about the jealousy. People are jealous of all the things we have accomplished. And you know what? I'm damn proud of us.

God bless America!!

-Nick


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 593 times:

First of all, I do have a good knowledge of the foreign policy of the United States over the past century, though mainly after WWII during the Cold War where we adopted a policy that essentially dictated that an enemy of the Russians was our friend. I heavily disagree with such a policy, as it lead us to make deals with none other than Osama himself.

You know what the Government let's out. You many havea "good knowledge", but you do not know the behind the scenes stuff, where more or less, everything happens. You don't know much more than anyone else with an interest in policy.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 570 times:

"I resent such comments. First of all, I have never in my history on these boards (over 2 years) tried to be an armchair CEO. And yes, I do know enough about foriegn affairs and politics to say that I do disagree with our current foreign policy. I read the news, I keep up with things.'


My comment about "Armchair Airliine CEO's" was not to be directed at you, but to several "other" members of this board who also consider themselves "Armchair Prime Ministers", "Armchair Generals" and of course, "Armchair God's".

Actaully alot of us know alot about foreign affairs since alot of us read, watch news and listen to commentary. Some of us have been around longer  Yeah sure to have experienced personally the outcomes of foreign policy as well.

"Now, continuing to the intended point of my post which seems to be overlooked. Though the USA has made her mistakes, I am thoroughly disgusted with the amount of anti-Americanism. It seems that people are just looking for a reason to jump aboard the 'I Hate America' bandwagon."

This is already a "given". A.net is also an international forum and people with all kinds of viewpoints are supposedly welcome to particpate and say their piece as long as it meets the "user guidelines" amongst them:

" Although Airliners.net does not and cannot review all messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at Airliners.net reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever"

We all understand that moderators can't read every post; however, when ovious "flame" is posted and the moderators are aware, they should pull the objectionable material quickly instead of becoming another instrument to spread disinformation. (I can think of one thread posted that was an "obvious" flame and the moderator, after being told twice that many statemets were out of line more or less said that the thread was no worse a flame than many others. Well, 2 wrongs don't make a right now do they??)


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (11 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 564 times:

The image of Bush has a gun spinning cowboy has been dashed by his calm and consistent stance on Iraq.Sometimes American foreign policy has bit them in the ass but they won't make the same mistakes again

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