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Is It Islams Turn To Be Hijacked?  
User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Posted (11 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

Early Jews were converted into Judaism by rullers who liked the thought that it was ONE god who gave them their power. In centuries BC, judaism was used for personal gain by tyrants, some killed in the name of Yehovah. You might say it was hijacked...

Constantine used Christianity in the same way that early Jewish monarchs used it: to consolidate power. After the collapse of the Roman Empire, european monarchs used Jesus as an excuse for terrible things, as did the Popes (ie Crusades, burning at the stake...). The Hitler used Christianity as an excuse for evil. One might say it was hijacked...

Today we see Muslim rulers who live in luxury, opress their people who live in povery. This is in the name of Allah. We see some rich (living) Muslims praise the suicide bombers. We see tyrants run their land under strict an opressive laws... killing people in the name of Allah (domestically as executions, and internationally by supporting terrorism).

The only ones who profit from government run relligious extremism is the government...

Can you say Islam was hijacked Is it its turn?

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (11 years 10 months ago) and read 1456 times:

Interesting you mention this.

Some historians say indeed that many if not all religions evolve similarly: and Islam is currently in its 13th century - if you have look at Christianity´s 13th century you´ll notice quite some difference to today´s peace and love emphasizing secular Christian culture.
Daniel Smile


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1447 times:

Interesting observation, and sadly it seems to have quite a bit of truth to it.

User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1444 times:

I've been thinking along similar lines lately. It seems to me that cultures evolve in a linear fashion, where achievements of thought and concept require several centuries to accomplish. We in the Christian west have certainly had our days of fun in the sun, and a revision of those dark days turn up events no worse or better than what is currently being played out by the Muslim culture.

Evolution does not take place overnight. It sometimes unfortunately requires centuries of bloodshed and holocausts to change a national consciousness.


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1437 times:

>>>Hitler used Christianity as an excuse for evil.

That´s not correct, btw: Hitler´s hate for the Jews did not have religious reasons. In fact, he regarded all religions with suspicion, disdain and outright hate because he perceived them as "competition" - i.e. one could either be a Nazi or a Christian but not both. Consequently, many political prisoners were clerics who had, openly or covertly resisted against the Nazi regime.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Excellent observation, Flyboy.

So far we have been considering the monotheistic religions of the west and middle east. Anyone have any ideas how this "linear evolution" compares to the far eastern religions -- Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.?

Pete


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1422 times:

Today we see Muslim rulers who live in luxury, opress their people who live in povery. This is in the name of Allah.

The US has one of the largest gaps between rich and poor in the western world. All in the name of Capitalism.....

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/uspoor.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/inequal/2002/1102denial.htm

The current economic climate in the US leaves the overworked middle class vulnerable to collapse into poverty, not unlike Argentina recently suffered.


User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

Saying that "Muslim" people live in poverty is a bit too wideranging to be anywhere near accurate.

The people in Negara Brunei Darassulam have one of the highest GDP per capita in the world. They are an Islamic Sultanate, but Sultan Bolkiah ensures that his people enjoy the toils of the country's wealth. There is no "opposition" to the rule of the Sultan. The only political party has only 200 members (or even less); probably due to the fact that the people in Brunei enjoy wideranging freedoms already.

Then you have countries like Indonesia, with 200+ million people. Yes, a lot of the people live in poverty, but this is not because of Islam.

And very few people in countries such as Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain live in poverty.

There are plenty of "Christian" nations where people live in abject poverty, especially in Latin America.

Poverty in reality has nothing to do with religion.

And there are also "Christian" nations which also support terrorism and execute their citizens; The "west" supported the terrorist regime of Suharto in Indonesia; the US supported terrorism by supporting UNITA (Angola), Contras (Nicaragua), Duarte (El Salvador).

And much like current events in the world, it has not so much to do with religion, but more to do with politics. The Arab-Israel(Jewish) conflict has not so much to do with religion, but more to do with the land which was taken for the establishment of the "Jewish" state, and the way in which that land was taken.

What "Islam" has to do is figure out where it's place in the world today is, in the sense of a geo-political arena.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1398 times:

Aviatsiya....
Regarding poverty, your comparison using small oil-rich countries is rather deceptive. Look at the mainstream.....Indonesia, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, etc. these contain over 95% of the Muslim world and are incredibly poor by western "Christian" standards. But I agree that poverty has nothing to do with religion.

In the same vein, Airplay is correct that among the western industrial nations the US has the largest gap of rich/poor -- but even the poorest of Americans are better off than the bulk of the people in the nations I noted above. As far as the vulnerability of the middle class to collapsing into poverty -- that's neither very likely, nor unique to the US.

Pete


User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1385 times:

The point I was making was with the leaders of these nations. The Taliban was an excellent example of a government that used islam as an excuse for strict rule. Iran, Saudia Arabia, Lybia, Nigeria (Northern), and Pallesine are clear examples where MUSLIM leaders on a RELLIGIOUS platform have failed their people or exploited them.

Recently, I was watching a documentary. In it the cheif of a firm that supports the famillies of suicide bombers was interviewed. He was wearing a silk shirt and gold watch. His feet were up on the desk. He said that they were 75% donation run (I can only guess where the other 25% came from) and that this was the LEAST he could do for those who died for Allah. Yeah, sitting with his feet up on the table in a (and it was) luxurious office it strully a sacrifice for your "brothers".

That´s not correct, btw: Hitler´s hate for the Jews did not have religious reasons. In fact, he regarded all religions with suspicion, disdain and outright hate because he perceived them as "competition" - i.e. one could either be a Nazi or a Christian but not both. Consequently, many political prisoners were clerics who had, openly or covertly resisted against the Nazi regime.

Regardless of wha he THOUGHT, he still used CHRISTIANITY as an excuse. An Aryan was not supposed to b an athiest. He knew that he could manipulate German-Christias into rallying behind him if he gave them an enemy. Most people who use a relligion against another are not truly faithfull to either.


Saying that "Muslim" people live in poverty is a bit too wideranging to be anywhere near accurate.


Aviatsiya,

You are correct. I am not brash enough to believe that every Islamic regime is corrupt, but I think that a dispraportionate number of them are, using islam for personal gain and as tools of opression.

I'd liken this to a corrupt (early) Roman Catholic church. 1200-1600 the were largley a political entity. In the 13 and 1400's they had the Inquisition. Weatly buisness men destroyed and enslaved entire civilizations in the Americas (Cortez...) under the guize of God. But it was not for God, it was for money. Does this mean each and evreyone in middle ages abused christianity, no. But a lot of important people did.

I would argue that the Israeli-Palestenian confict is relligious.

Israel says that this is their JEWISH state.
The palesenians think they go straight to Allah for attacking it. They think Allah gave them the land and it was stolen. But I think that they would have had it back by now if their leader was not who he is.











User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1370 times:

The US has one of the largest gaps between rich and poor in the western world. All in the name of Capitalism.....

Here we go again, Airplay. What does this have to do with Islam? Can you stick to the topic for a change and for once leave your US-bashing out?

The current economic climate in the US leaves the overworked middle class vulnerable to collapse into poverty, not unlike Argentina recently suffered.

I'm sure you'd LOVE this to happen.  Yeah sure And guess which country would be the first to suffer the residal consequences?

But anyways, seems like Canada is following the same route. Much you too have too look forward to, eh?


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1362 times:

I'm sure you'd LOVE this to happen. And guess which country would be the first to suffer the residal consequences?

Ummm....Mexico? I've seen news shows that have middle class Americans state that many are just one big hospital bill away from poverty.

Rai,

As much as you'd like to discount all my posts as cheap "US-bashing" they are not. I am trying to illustrate that there are many different cultures in the world, and before we start bashing THEM for their different ways, maybe we should look at ourselves (Canada included). In this case however I think you'd be better off in Canada as a "poor" person than you would be in the US.









User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1360 times:

Ummm....Mexico? I've seen news shows that have middle class Americans state that many are just one big hospital bill away from poverty.

I was thinking about another country.

As much as you'd like to discount all my posts as cheap "US-bashing" they are not. I am trying to illustrate that there are many different cultures in the world, and before we start bashing THEM for their different ways, maybe we should look at ourselves (Canada included).

Then do so. It certainly doesn't come out that way.

In this case however I think you'd be better off in Canada as a "poor" person than you would be in the US.

I'd agree with you there...but who wants to be poor?






User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1333 times:

I am trying to illustrate that there are many different cultures in the world, and before we start bashing THEM for their different ways, maybe we should look at ourselves (Canada included).

I am bashing governments and inividuals, not cultures. I have bashed my own government in the past (see my profile). Now can I bas others?  Big grin


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1328 times:

Flyboy,

I am bashing governments and inividuals, not cultures.

You really need to read your original post. It doesn't mention any "individuals" Unless there is only one guy named "John Islam" or "Mike Jew" or "Joe Muslim".....



User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1327 times:

Actually it's not very well known but hitler did not use Christianity as an excuse. In fact, like someone already mentioned, he regarded Christianity with great suspicion. In fact, He sent several priests to one of his death camps.

Having said that, there were times when he had to pay lip service to a country which was considered "Christian". But it was nothing more than that. Hitler, IMO, was more obsessed with "purifying" the German race, than anything religious.



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1327 times:

Aviatsiya,

And very few people in countries such as Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain live in poverty

Saudi Arabia?

A good deal of Saudi Arabians are POOR bedouins living in the deserts, roaming around, jobless and often not in very good conditions.

You're thinking of the thousands of wealthy members of the royal family and their associates (big families such as the bin laden family). Don't confuse the two. Saudi, despite its oil reserves, has a huge poor population as well as problems with illiteracy....

And you can't compare tiny oil rich countries with large countries in latin America. The populations of the Gulf countries you mentioned are very small.



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Airplay...

Constantine, Hitler, Tyrants, Muslim RULERS... tha'ts tarhering individuals and govenments, not relligions or cultures/


User currently offlineBarfBag From India, joined Mar 2001, 2229 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1282 times:

So far we have been considering the monotheistic religions of the west and middle east. Anyone have any ideas how this "linear evolution" compares to the far eastern religions -- Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.?

First, neither Hinduism nor Buddhism are far-eastern, but originate in India. Neither are proselytizing religions, and have no history of wars to gain converts or impose their beliefs. Further, they are inclusive and have no emphasized distinction of being a believer/heathen or momin/kafir. Rather, they emphasize a way of life, a system of values and ethics, which are upto the individual himself to follow, and not directed by any authority.

There is no central religious symbol like Abraham/Jesus/Mohammad, though Buddhism was founded by the Indian prince Siddhartha Gautama, aka the Buddha (The Enlightened One) around 600 B.C.; Hinduism dates from earlier than 2500 B.C. Both these religions gained followers through the appeal of their belief system, as they do now. As a result, neither of these religions were hijacked by those trying to use it to further or justify their own agenda, and have no 'dark ages' but merely a continuous evolution to fit within changing social mores.



India, cricket junior and senior world champions
User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6858 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1266 times:

Talking about Hitler...
I couldn't stop laughing seeing a Nazi propaganda film on Christmas....
An Anti-Semitic party making a film to celebrate the birth of a Jew... just shows how hypocritical they were ! LOL

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1260 times:

Airplay,

Come down off your 'Ode to Lenin' soapbox long enough to do some simple math....

Ted Turner - $1 billion donated to the UN
George Soros - Over a billion donated to population control
Bill Gates - $20 billion and counting towards 3rd World AIDS prevention and health programs...

Last time I checked, it was capitalism that allowed that money to become a reality....

I live not far from one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the world and as sure as the sun comes up I don't doubt there are some pretty dubious snakes living there. So should I go full blown socialista because of it?

Paraphrasing Churchill, capitalism is the absolute worst form of economics...except for all the others.

Islam has not been hijacked.....Islamic extremism is an arrogant opposite reaction to absolute rule, an arrogant action. Interestingly, in all the place the poster mentioned, capitalism in proper balance has never been allowed to thrive....


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

"Here we go again, Airplay. What does this have to do with Islam? Can you stick to the topic for a change and for once leave your US-bashing out?
"

Actually rai what Airplay was saying is that Capitalism has become a religion in the US so things can be done in it's name as well. Flyboy36y ended with:

"the only ones who profit from government run religious extremism is the government..."

Which would mean that it can apply to all religions as well as cultures of people that treat it as one, science included. Besides just because the title includes Islam doesn't mean it should be limited to it, (you're not the topic starter anyway), flyboy36y brought up an observation about Hitler and Christianity, can you explain to me what that has to with Islam?

Or is branding US-bashers easier you?



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineRai From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

Actually rai what Airplay was saying is that Capitalism has become a religion in the US so things can be done in it's name as well.

Lephron: I didn't see it that way and I think a lot of people would agree with me. Why are you standing up for this guy anyways? What gives? Besides, can you name one Western country where Capitalism isn't a "religion"?  Insane

P.S. those addresses you gave me don't work! I guess they've left the school by now.


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1221 times:

From my point of view it seemed like Capitalism is more intense here than anywhere else: Enron, nuff said. Besides, can you name one other country where a situation like Enron occurs as often so that it is common knowledge that Capitalism isn't a "religion" everywhere?  Insane

"Why are you standing up for this guy anyways? What gives? "

Just because you didn't see it that way (fine) and you thought a lot of people would agree with you doesn't mean that is the case. I wonder if I should bother pointing out that you assumed that I stood up for him by the way you interpreted my response (and maybe your emotional character, i.e. whatever you were reacting from, at the time), which was not the intent of my response. Next time be aware of the distinction between the two, K?

P.S. Regarding those addresses, we have recently got our new directory up and running, maybe those were last year's addy’s, care to re-email their names? I'll see what I can do.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (11 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

"As far as the vulnerability of the middle class to collapsing into poverty -- that's neither very likely, nor unique to the US. "

Oh, really? come to NYC where the unemployment level is so high, companies are laying off, jobs are scarce, companies moving away and there is no unemployment safety net. These are not people with mansions in the Hamptons, thses are people where the parents work have a kid or two, they have an old car and barely make the bills, not out of largese buit because of taxation and high costs of living, -the middle class who actually pay the taxes. When one of these middle class bread winner looses their job they are ruined and there fore fall out of the middle class and enter poverty. The same can be said for many other cities and states because the economy is in a recession. (PS-don't use unemployment benefit statistics as your gage because people aren't counted when their benefits are exhausted and it is not a realizeable goal for any family to save enough money to subsist through a long period of unemployment, regardless of what Rush says...)


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