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Saudi Flying School Student Detained  
User currently offlineSleekjet From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2046 posts, RR: 22
Posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030120-407284,00.html


II Cor. 4:17-18
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDesert_dweller From Canada, joined Apr 2002, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

this is just retarded... racisim doesnt exist (BULL$hit)

User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

He broke the law, he went to jail. It's that simple.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1139 times:

this is just retarded... racisim doesnt exist (BULL$hit)


He failed to uphold a mandated obligation so now he's in jail as a result of it..... how exactly is that racism on the USA's behalf???


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1141 times:

He broke the law, he went to jail. It's that simple.

Actually, immigration law does not provide for imprisonment as a penalty for violation. Instead it allows administrative detention with an aim towards deportation.


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

How about this policy:

If you're in the U.S. illegally, if you're pulled over or arrested for ANYTHING, you're automatically deported. No ifs, and, or buts. No trial, just deported (unless of course it's for something serious in which case they should stand trial).



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1119 times:

It's not quite that easy to define what "ILLEGALLY" in the US is. INS has what is called "prosecutorial discretion" to decide which illegal cases to pursue and which to not. Additionally, US policy makes special exceptions for many categories of illegals, most notably Cubans who cannot be deported under any circumstances once they are on US soil.

Additionally, the way the law is currently written, every alien can technically be found to be illegally in the US. A person who enters for "Tourism" technically engages in "Business" when they purchase a coke from a store and can be accordingly deported. A student who stays up all night in the college library is technically illegal for failing to file a "temporary change of residence" form at least 14 days in advance. And so forth.

Zero tolerance is not the answer. A rationally created and enforced immigration policy is. Right now the system is horribly broken and tends to victimize the innocent while letting the illegals slide through the cracks. Unacceptable.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1113 times:

How about this policy:

If you're in the U.S. illegally, if you're pulled over or arrested for ANYTHING, you're automatically deported. No ifs, and, or buts. No trial, just deported (unless of course it's for something serious in which case they should stand trial).


Right on Jhooper! Most Americans (and Canadians) would wholeheartedly support this. Unfortunately, immigration lawyers, special interest groups & other social activists have hijacked the immigration policies of the US (and Canada).

What amazes me is that the US still allows Saudi nationals at its flight schools. Incredible.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

I see your point but I'm not sure that any of the 19 Saudi's (or was it 15 of thre 19 that were Saudi's?) could have been screened out.

It seems reasonable that in light of 9-11 (where 19 US-trained Saudi & Egyptian "pilots" killed 3000 Americans) that all Saudi student pilots be banned from US flight schools for the foreseeable future.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFly_emirates From United Arab Emirates, joined Oct 2000, 1046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1065 times:

well i wouldnt whine about racism here, because i might miss some of the main points.It was all over the news for the last few weeks that if you are from a certain listed countries, and saudi arabia was the first on the list that when you arrive the USA you should report to the INS or whatever organization and register. even thoughthere were some thing about people who got arrested when attempting to register, but it wasn't clear why they were arrested. i would think that they did something against the law, or something that we just dont know about.

As for this student, well if the finger prints really matches, then, well there isn't much some one can do! thats a strong evidence. I feel sorry for him, however, when there is an evidence, then thats it, you are busted!


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1013 times:

I'm not sure that any of the 19 Saudi's (or was it 15 of thre 19 that were Saudi's?) could have been screened out.

They may not have been screened out on entry, but they would immediately have been flagged once they failed to report to classes at the respective schools sponsoring their I-20s, or once they stopped attending the schools. Thats the way the system should have worked anyway before 9/11, but the INS didn't ever bother following up with the school. The way things were set up, the school never knew that they entered and the INS never knew that they didn't report. That is the fault of the administrators of the system. Don't penalize the innocent for the US' inability to enforce their own laws and policies already in place.


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 978 times:

It's not quite that easy to define what "ILLEGALLY" in the US is. INS has what is called "prosecutorial discretion" to decide which illegal cases to pursue and which to not. Additionally, US policy makes special exceptions for many categories of illegals, most notably Cubans who cannot be deported under any circumstances once they are on US soil.

B747-437B,

You make a good point, but I'm really talking about the more black and white cases of people just trampling across the boarder illegally without any legal permission or documentation to be here, and not really the student who goes to the library to study.




Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 973 times:

I'm really talking about the more black and white cases of people just trampling across the boarder illegally without any legal permission or documentation to be here, and not really the student who goes to the library to study.

And that is exactly why a zero tolerance blanket deportation policy like you proposed would be counter productive. Immigration law is fundamentally based upon "intent" which is subjective. It is impossible to evaluate a subjective issue using objective criteria, which is what a zero tolerance policy demands.

By all means, send those who break the law back, but only after determining through proper means that those people did indeed break the law.


User currently offlineThumper From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 958 times:

I would think if they entered the country illegally than they did indeed break the law!

User currently offlineFunny From Greece, joined May 2001, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 941 times:

I believe that there is a bit of racism on behalf of the US against Arabs, after many things. Many people in the USA themselves say that.


User currently offlineFunny From Greece, joined May 2001, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 926 times:

Yyz717

Your a damn racist man. A man can be Iraqi, Saudi, Iranian or whatever, and still go to any flight school of their choice. Your comments go absoloutly against the international spirit of this forum and this entire airliners.net website. How do you think a saudi would feel if he saw that, what you wrote. Think through what you write next time. You have turned this into a racially oriented argument, and as previously stated, it goes against the international spirit of this website.

Jason


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 922 times:

I would think if they entered the country illegally than they did indeed break the law!

Its very easy to say "entered the country illegally", but how do you determine that? There are open and shut cases such as undocumented Mexicans who swim across, etc... but the cases of a Saudi flying school student is not quite that clear.

As I mentioned before, the key to US Immigration law is "intent". If you have "intent" to engage in activities outside the scope of your initial permission for entry, you are in violation of the law. Unfortunately, it is very hard to determine someone else's "intent". Business, Tourism, Education and Work often overlap creating grey areas. Under a zero tolerance policy, a college student on a class field trip to Washington DC could be deported because he is a "student" while the field trip is "tourism". A software programmer in Silicon Valley could be deported because he was reading a Java training manual and thus "studying" instead of "working". Heck, the INS has actually deported people in the past because they entered for "business" but went to "tourist" attractions during their trip.

Situations like this are why "due process", "prosecutorial discretion" and "judicial review" were created. It ensures that the innocent are not persecuted beyond reasonable inconvenience, but also ensures that the guilty are identified beyond reasonable doubt. A rigid system with no room for interpretation not only hurts the innocent, but also creates big gaping holes for the guilty to exploit.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 913 times:

Very well put -437B.

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 892 times:

...If you're in the U.S. illegally, if you're pulled over or arrested for ANYTHING, you're automatically deported. No ifs, and, or buts. No trial, just deported (unless of course it's for something serious in which case they should stand trial)...

Illegal status is a shifting one. For instance, a foreign worker may be out of status temporarily (and, thus, in a veritable legal twilight zone) because of administrative shenanigans, delays at the INS, unforeseen delays in obtaining relevant documents caused by circumstances either within or outside the control of the alien, etc. For instance, a foreign student may have used up her F-1 practical training visa and could be waiting for either her H-I workers visa or her green card, and during this time may be out of status. These are all precarious situations in which tens of thousands of innocent people (and their families and employers) find themselves in, year after year. Tossing someone in the clink for having their car booted during such a period defies any form of equitable justice.


User currently offlineFly_emirates From United Arab Emirates, joined Oct 2000, 1046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 852 times:

well, there are some people who are unaware of somethings. like jaysit mentioned, the shifting of status, i wasn't aware about it taking this long time.
i don't think there were any racial comments placed by any one on this forum, even though some were relatively strong.. but when reading them again and again, i can see that they had a point. Now, having said that, there is only one exception. YYZ717 had the absolutely racist pointless comment. i really didn't want to mention his comments, but YYZ717, isn't you the guy who was complaining that its unfair that the United Arab Emirates does not grant indians citizen ship? oh let me see... its fair that the USA don't let saudi's get into flying school, while its unfair that the UAE don't grant citizen ship for indians or other foreigners! how interesting. I understand that bunch of 19 crappy people who were said to be saudi's have caused the death of 3000 people, however this doesn't mean that all middleastern people are terrorists

As i said in my previous post, this guy wasn't arrested out of the blue, the article mentioned that his finger prints have matched the ones that were in the Data base, thats why he was arrested. Stick to the facts yyz717


User currently offlineLamyl_hhlco From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 825 times:

By the way of some people think , let me summarize:

-So Muslims or Arabs should be banned from the United states.
-They are not allowed to be pilot or studying aviation
-They all criminals
-They all terrorists
-They should stay in their country

In that case, Arabs airlines should never use American Airliners, they should return back all their Douglas and Boeings and replace them by Airbus.
They should not allow any Americans into Arab countries ,nor for business or tourism.
The Americans oil company should return back to the US or else where.
Egypt should not allow any Americans in any tourist's sites like the pyramids and not allowed to study the Egyptian civilization.

In that case ladies and gentlemen, we all have to stop talking to each other , and just avoid each other . No racial mixture, no traveling, no business no nothing. Live by your own ,I live by mine . Produce your own oil, I produce mine. Don't sell it to any other countries , only just between whites and whites,red neck to red neck and black to black.

man you guys are getting so immature and so scared to anything around you.
If a Muslim make a mistake, it does not represent the whole community, get that??? A juish can be even best friend with a Palestinian ,despite what's happening.
Every case is different.



User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 822 times:

poor kid.

but, he should know the US is on edge right now regarding Saudis and flying schools. He should have been more responsible and checked in with the INS. How hard is that?

he'll serve his time and if he is a threat be deported. otherwise he'll be released and go back to flying school. hopefully this time he'll be more careful adhering to our country's immigration laws.


User currently offlineFly_emirates From United Arab Emirates, joined Oct 2000, 1046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 814 times:

i guess TWAneedsno help is right this time, the kid could have checked in with the INS. However, the finger prints match and him not checking in on time , might be the reason that lead to his arrest when combined  Smile

User currently offlineLamyl_hhlco From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 811 times:

that could be a mistake from him indeed

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