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The Things Ya' Read In The Middle East...  
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1844 times:

More thoughtful American columnists and reporters have told us that there is a period of reflection settling in on the Middle East...here's an example...

http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=74240

At the heart of the Victory over the kind of terrorism that gave us 9/11 is when those whom the terrorists claim to be brethren say "Enough" and stop them. This is an encouraging sign.



57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13229 posts, RR: 77
Reply 1, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Good article, criticism of, but not US or Western bashing for the sake of it, with plenty of well-argued points.
Indeed the West has been the most advanced for over 500 years, but if China had not reverted to isolationism in the early 15th century, the last half millennium's history would have been very different, as China was in many ways the most advanced society then.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

I wonder if this was translated into Arabic.

User currently offlineTbird From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 851 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Greetings:

Very good article but sadly the author represents the minority vs. the majority in the Middle East. The majority of the Middle East has very little education in-turn allowing people to turn into follows. His example of Israel dominating its neighbors with knowledge vs. money is a perfect example of why education is so important to society. If more people were educated or even able to read people like Bin Laden wouldn't exist.

Regards
Tom


User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1822 times:

A very well done piece. You have to admire his courage as well, for saying these things may not make him popular in some circles.

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1818 times:

Tbird,

Many, if not most of OBL's followers are very-well educated. All 19 of his hijackers. His right-hand man is a surgeon. Education is not the problem.


User currently offlineTbird From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 851 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1810 times:

I never said the leaders of these groups were uneducated. Most of the time the leaders of these groups and governments are extremely intelligent people. How do you think they rally the masses? The individuals who follow these people are the uneducated, generally the great masses. A perfect example is the 1000's of Palestinians who marched today in Gaza in support of Saddam Hussein. Those are the masses who are mislead because they don't know any better. So yes education is the problem and will continue to be the problem. Most of the problems in the world today can be linked to a lack of education.

Tom


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Tbird,

I disagree. Many of al-Qaeda's foot soldiers are well-educated Egyptians, Saudis, and Moroccans who are unemployed in their home countries. They often migrate to the West where most of them become radicalized after coming into contact with the 'decadent' west. Look at 9/11 hijackers, most of them were "normal" before coming into contacts with Muslim radicals in Germany. The core of al-Qaeda is pretty well educated.

Do you know what the Palestinians are called in ME? They are often dubbed the "Jews of the Middle East." Ironic. Compared to other groups of Arabs, they have the highest literacy rates and are often the most economically successful. They probably marched for Hussein because he opposes the US. They hate the US because we back their tormentor Israel.

Illiteracy is a big problem but I think most of the geopolitical problems today can be linked to a lack of democracy.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

Do you know what the Palestinians are called in ME? They are often dubbed the "Jews of the Middle East." Ironic. Compared to other groups of Arabs, they have the highest literacy rates and are often the most economically successful.

You bring up a good point En.

If Arabs really want to make the West quake in their shoes, they should try envisioning the economic power that results from a merging of the mind power and intellectual resources of two communities..... Palestinian and Israeli. A peaceful existence and gradual integration of talents and possibilities would create the regions first non-oil based economic powerhouse.

Come to think of it, it wouldn't hurt for the Jews in the region to envision that too.



User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

...If Arabs really want to make the West quake in their shoes, they should try envisioning the economic power that results from a merging of the mind power and intellectual resources of two communities..... Palestinian and Israeli. A peaceful existence and gradual integration of talents and possibilities would create the regions first non-oil based economic powerhouse...

That would mean a united Israel and Palestine which is a political impossibility, given Sharon, Hamas, and the American Evangelical movement that will fight tooth and nail to keep all of Israel under Jewish control to fulfil their own messianic fantasies. The Palestinian diaspora in the Middle East rightfully think rather poorly of the current Israeli regime and just as poorly of the rest of the Arab world. If a viable Palestinian territory were indeed a political possibility, you would see the Palestinian intelligentsia and educated elite returning to Palestine from Jordan, Europe, the UAE, etc in droves. A moderate Palestinian regime established in the West Bank could theoretically exist peacefully with a moderate Israeli government, but for the constant flash points created by the usual bunch of troublemakers listed above.


User currently offlineTbird From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 851 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

N79969 I respect your opinion but coming from an education background I've done to much research and written to many papers that link many sociological problems to the lack of education in society, whether that education being formal schooling or public awareness. Yes Bin Laden's group is well educated and well organized but the people outside the Al Qaeda, the common Joe of the Middle East if you will have not been educated on the ways of the west. Yes the lack of democracy does play a part but you must ask yourself a question. Why aren't these countries democratic and what let them become totalitarian? If you unravel all the layers you'll discover it simply comes down to not knowing any better. When a population is educated they can ask "why". Take Iran for example the population knows what the west has to offer and they’re demonstrating for change. The more you know the better off you are.

Tom


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1765 times:

Tbird,

And I certainly respect your's. However, I think coming from an education background is precisely why you hold your particular biases. That is why you believe the lack of education is the problem. I mean no disrespect by that. I have my own biases. Academics in any field think that if the world would just adopt their theories, then problems would be solved. Thank God, economists, political scientists, and sociologists are mostly confined to universities where they cannot mess anything up.

Iran is not pro-Western because of better education. They have endured 20+ years of theocratic rule that has brought nothing but economic ruin. They want out of the Revolution.

I certainly have not researched the connection between sociological problems and low education levels. If we were talking about teenage pregnancy, drug abuse, and so on-- I would agree with you. However, I feel confident in saying that the political problems of the Middle East are divorced from the issues of education levels.

"If you unravel all the layers you'll discover it simply comes down to not knowing any better. "

I complete disagree with this. They know better. Bahrain is holding elections already. Kuwait had one but decided to disenfranchise women. Many ME's want democracy but they are ruled by dictators. This is a fundamental political problem that cannot be addressed by sending kids to school.

Another thing worth considering is the number of terrorists and terrorist sympathizers who are US-educated. Hundreds. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind 9/11, went to grad school in North Carolina. The Lackawanna Six were US born. The bottom line is that I am not worried about the illiterate Egyptian date peddler that is angry with us, I am far more worried about the cosmopolitan, well-educated middle class Egyptian who has no hope of finding a job and wants to give some meaning to his life by executing a suicide mission against the USA.

"The more you know the better off you are."

I agree 100%


User currently offlineTbird From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 851 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Well we can go on forever but I'm going away this weekend so I'll make one last point. You stated you’re not worried about the illiterate Egyptian date peddlers who are angry with us. I agree, but if more of those illiterate Egyptian date peddlers could read and write maybe they'd become more sociologically aware of the world and see that supporting dictators, and terrorist groups is morally wrong and just maybe things might just change. Idealistic yes, but it's just a thought. I think in some way the author is trying to tell us something about public awareness and education. So in the end we'll have to agree to disagree  Big grin

BTW I meant no disrespect to the illiterate Egyptian date peddlers, there contribution to the Egyptian economy is greatly appreciated  Acting devilish

Have a great weekend!
Tom


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1751 times:

"Since, therefore this threat for us, is less military and more spiritual or intellectual, we have to be careful about the choice of weapon. The black-and-white simplicities of the Bush administration won't do for us because our concerns and requirements are different.

The demonisation of Iraq fits in with American preconceptions, not ours. The 'axis-of-evil' is an American construct. Who else could have dreamt of it?"

The article makes alot of sense except for this statement and some of the ones that follow.

there are some "black and white" issues--especially when it comes to terrorism and the support/funding/aquiessing to it. There can be no amount of terrorism that is acceptible, no matter what the "beef" is. Terorrism is an ideological problem primarily and amilitary one by consequence. It is ideological because as outwardly beligerent states directly incite the people and moderate states "put up with it" and deceitful states such as Saudi Arabia fund it, knowing what terror is. However, with in the constrains of "pride" as well as radicalism it is something that will not be countered "ideologically" very easily; and if any sort of ideological counter will have to come from within the Muslim community--since "outsiders" are viewed as infidels in radicalised societies and politely ignored as outsiders in moderate societies. However, with recent trends such as the rise of the Taliban-style radicalism, Iranian fundemantalism and Saudi Arabian "acceptance" of this kind of Islamicism, it is doubtful that any moderation of the degree needed to counter terrorism in a meaniful way is forthcoming. And unfortunately with other societal ills within the Islamic world, such as poverty and illiteracy that only butresses the more fundamental frame of mind. And this fundamental frame of mind is not open to any sort of negotiation, let alone moderation. This fundamental movement also has an "evangelical" component as espoused by OBL and others to establish a world wide caliphate. Using terrorism to accomplish these goals will eventually be met with warefare, plain and simple. And though "Axis of Evil" is a broad stroke, it is a truism. Just as Germany, Japan and Italy were an "axis" so are the forces of Al Qiada and Radical Islamicismas are warlike states of North Korea and Iraq. Though varying in degree, they are still a threat as all look to terrorise innocent, democratic states.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

There can be no amount of terrorism that is acceptible, no matter what the "beef" is

Oh, as simple as that? How do you define terrorism?


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1739 times:

777236ER:

These are terrorist acts--  Yeah sure

WTC 9/11
Hijacking of Airliners
Bombings (LaBelle, 1986; LGA, 1972)
Genocide
Ethnic Cleansing
Forced conversion to religious orders (re Islam/Nigeria)
Slavery (Sudan)
Use of Chemical agents (Iraq/Kurds 1988; Tokyo 1995)
Destabilization of elected governments (Phillipines/Abu Sayff)

come to mind....

777236ER, don't try to draw some sort of "moral equivelency"  Yeah sure controversy or make some sort oblique parrallel by equating some things with others...it won't work. And no you can't equate military offensive actions against N. Korea or Iraq as "terrorism" since those states committed belicose acts against UN mandates and are using those means to blackmail or try to say that "Abu Sayaff is entitled to territory because they fell that they deserve it" by trying to take over parts of the Sulu archipeligo.

Also don't even try to say that WTC 9/11 is what the result is of our so called "foreign policy" either--mass murder does not wash and that is a view shared universally, period.

-451 in NY







User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

How do you define terrorism?

Dead kids. That's at least a basic starting point. From there ask the people who killed them if that's what they had in mind. If the answer is yes, you've got a terrorist.


User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1837 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1728 times:

The article focuses on the way in which the Arab peoples have been misruled by despotic leaders.

However, in the main, these leaders have been funded and supported by the West for short-term political expediency. Why is it that Saudi Arabia still abuses human rights, and gets away with it?

Small word, three letters.


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

Interesting 747-451, I can see at least four things in that list that the US has participated in. Are we terrorists??


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineSleekjet From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2048 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Mr. "Nuts": I respectfully disagree. While there have instances of horrific wrong-doing in our country, they can be blamed on the imperfections of a few people (with the exception of slavery). The constitution of our land has served us well. The preponderance of good that this country represents is a mountain compared to the molehill of bad. Your "terroristic" suggestion suggests to me a terrible bias, the roots of which indicate a warped understanding of history.


II Cor. 4:17-18
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1715 times:

Like what Nutsy???  Yeah sure But what would I expoect from you anyway?

User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

Bombings (LaBelle, 1986; LGA, 1972)

We bomb lots of places.

Forced conversion to religious orders (re Islam/Nigeria)

Slavery (Sudan)

Use of Chemical agents (Iraq/Kurds 1988; Tokyo 1995)

Destabilization of elected governments (Phillipines/Abu Sayff)


Questions?




Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1712 times:

Small word, three letters.

Save the pontification, your majesty....you're as guilty as we are.

Where were those Jaguars and Tornados for the despot-run Royal Saudi Air Force built.... Togo? What city still ranks as one of the favored fun spots for desert royalty to piss away their millions? And I suppose we're to believe that Rolls Royces and Jaguars and Rovers all run on sunshine, right? Sunshine and daisies.

Before you go handing out the despot support cards to Hopalong & Co., do a little research on some of your dearly departed countrymen like Marcus Samuel, John Cadman, and one Mister Jack Philby, whose good friend Ibn Saud took his advice and allowed British companies to explore for that tiresome black goo bubbling up here and there in the sand.

The U.S.A. may have done it's share of feeding the oil monster, but the UK helped deliver the demon baby to begin with.



User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1708 times:

Cut the crap--the only time we "bomb" is to defend ourselves, gag me with the PC stuff already...

And who have we forced indoctrinated into a religion? (except maybe in Berkeley  Sad )

Yes, and I see all the current slave markets we have; like the one here right in  Yeah sure Time Square  Yeah sure

Use of Chemical Agents, yeah maybe thirty years ago during a brutal guerilla war-not in a subway to kill people going to work.

Destabilization of governments...sure to destabilize despots like SH...and again not in the motive you accuse us of. But then again would we be a better world of there were more Castro's Taliban's, Noriega's etc etc ...  Yeah sure

You entirely miss the point, you seem to be completely unable to discern the difference between terrorist acts committed against innocents as opposed to enforcing UN sanctions, defending our borders and protecting our national interests (which isn't a crime, nor are we alone in doing it--so again, save me the false "piety"; even our beloved Clinton blew up "baby milk factories"  Yeah sure).

Your PC diatribes are kind of trite.



User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (11 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

You are an awfully angry person, 747-451. Please calm down and talk like an adult.

Now it isn't my fault if you can't elaborate on posts. May this be a lesson to you, BE SPECIFIC!



Dear moderators: No.
25 Eg777er : Heavymetal..........that's why I said the 'West', if you read my post correctly. Unlike some members of this forum, I have never said that the UK or E
26 777236ER : You entirely miss the point, you seem to be completely unable to discern the difference between terrorist acts committed against innocents as opposed
27 MD-90 : Are the Europeans who settled in America terrorists? Everybody, you knew it'd happen someday. He's gone off the deep end and probably won't be returni
28 MD-90 : By the way, thanks for posting that article, Heavymetal. It is excellent.
29 Alessandro : GDB, if didn´t exist, everyone would be rich! Seriously, Asia is making rapid progress, but Europe and North America will still be the places where m
30 Twaneedsnohelp : after reading that article all I can say is "WOW" its about friggin time, at least one Arab got a clue. Hope this guy isn't shot or jailed. tnnh
31 747-451 : Nuts: I'm hardly angry, you aren't worth it. My posts are specific...it is your fault if you cant extrapolate... or investigate on your own.
32 747-451 : "You entirely miss the point, you seem to be completely unable to discern the difference between terrorist acts committed against innocents as opposed
33 Heavymetal : Eg777er I owe you a huge apology. Your three letters were "O-I-L". I got all defensive and thought they were "U-S-A" Part of the reason was I was fres
34 Ovelix : 747-451 These are terrorist acts 1. WTC 9/11 2. Hijacking of Airliners 3. Bombings (LaBelle, 1986; LGA, 1972) 4. Genocide 5. Ethnic Cleansing 6. Force
35 Donder10 : China embassy in Belgrade And that was an accident.Do you seriously think the US would intentionally do something like that to China today?
36 Alessandro : Donder10, not an accident, a mistake because someone couldn´t read the map. Ovelix, what have the US done to Greece and Brazil?
37 KLAX : Like to see you do a better job Alessandro, next time we'll send the Swedish Air Force in to fix problems that part of the world. -Clovis
38 Alessandro : We always like to sit on the side and let others do the dirty work. Rather clever I say, last time Swedish air force was involved in serious fighting
39 Rai : Ovelix, what have the US done to Greece and Brazil? Being of Greek decent, I can try to answer that, Alessandro. First off, Greeks are bitter that the
40 Rai : Oh yeah...one more thing, Greeks are upset because of the Serbian bombing. It hurt their economy.
41 Ovelix : And you totally forget that USA orchestrated and helped the military coup in 1967 which overthrew the elected government. The VP himself visited Greec
42 Alessandro : So envy is the same thing as hurting someone, so if I envy you, you´ve hurt me? I think US/Nato has done a lot good for Greece/Turkey, without that t
43 Alessandro : So you´ve any proof that US was part of the military coup in Greece or is it just something "everyone" should know?
44 Ovelix : If the VP visit and the public praise of the regime is not enough for you what about the official Clinton apology in 1999 during his own visit? News a
45 Alessandro : I don´t follow Greece that much, not that interested. Some left wing Greeks seeked asylume here in Sweden during the 1970ies and in my point of view
46 Ovelix : I think US/Nato has done a lot good for Greece/Turkey, without that there would have been several wars between the two.. USA and NATO sponsored and he
47 Alessandro : The Yugoslav telephone buy, was the response to Rai and his claim that the Nato bombings of Yugoslavia hurt the Greek economy.
48 Twaneedsnohelp : Rai said Greece and Israel co-operate militarily? Is that so? Don't they mind Israel has such a strong relationship with Turkey? TNNH
49 Ovelix : TNNH Contrary to what some people believe, Greece is wise enough to make bussiness with Israel too. It's amazing that this part of our foreign policy
50 Alessandro : Sure Greeks and Cyprus do biz with Israel, as for joint military exercise, sure, Greece is a Nato member and Israel has lots of know how especially wi
51 Twaneedsnohelp : gotcha thanks
52 Ovelix : Returinng back in topic here are my thoughts: The problem in the ME is about democracy. Corrupted, autocratic regimes with a mix of theocracy and petr
53 Bravo45 : Pretty ordinary stuff. I mean to say almost all that is said is right and nothing (except the small things that one would disagree as one does in ever
54 Twaneedsnohelp : Pretty ordinary stuff. I mean to say almost all that is said is right and nothing .... said here is new Are you kidding??? This article is revolutiona
55 Bravo45 : This article is revolutionary. It's one of the first times EVER, I've seen an Arab writing for an Arabic paper not blame Israel or Jewish media tycoon
56 Bravo45 : With all that said, the writter DOESNOT mean that Israel is innocent of everything. He has indirectly said that we cannot blame others while we are on
57 Mandala499 : TNNH ! Nice to see you alive ! I agree, the obsession in the Muslim world about IvsP has taken emphasis away from economic progress... leading to more
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