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Democracy In Israel, Future Palestinian Leadership  
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2158 times:

Ok, this isn't meant to start a flame war. Just some points I want to make.

First of all, I want to show you an example of democracy at work in Israel. Israel's parliamentary body consists of 120 seats (the Knesset). Arab Israeli's are represented in the Knesset, and two of the members of the Knesset had some controversy surrounding them. There are two Arab members of the Knesset named Ahmed Tibi and Yohb Kara (not sure about the spelling, I only know it in Hebrew). They have both preached that the only solution to the problems was the end of Israel's existence. Specifically, Ahmed Tibi has gone around to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia preaching the destruction of Israel to their leaders, and showing his support to the groups there.

So how did the government react to this? Through a vote, they expelled the two members from the Knesset. Yet, the Supreme Court in Israel (highest court of the country) ruled that they could not do that, and allowed them back in the Knesset, where they remain today. This is a great example of democracy at work in Israel.

***

Secondly, I want to talk about the future Palestinian leadership. I think the first step towards the solution of the violence will be a new leader for the Palestinians. I don't know who would take his place, but it cannot be somebody who will be supportive of Hamas and Jihad, because these are the groups which are the most destructive to both sides. And then this new leader needs the support of the Arab nations, but not just their blind support, but their support towards a peaceful resolution.

One nation that is showing that it wants an end to this is Egypt. Hoping to influence Israeli elections to get Mitzna into office, they had a conference trying to get Palestinian terrorist groups to stop their attacks. But at least they're trying to get a cease fire, which is a start. Other Arab nations also supported Mitzna, including Syria, Jordan, and the Palestinians.

So this brings me to my last point, what about Ariel Sharon? Right now, I think he is doing a decent job as Israel's leader. Why do I say this, because I dont see anything better coming from Mitzna. While his intentions are good, the Palestinians abuse this and get what they want out of it, through terrorism. This happened with Rabin, it happened with Peres, and it happened with Barak. The only reason the Palestinians want Mitzna is because they know he's not as tough on his stance as Sharon is. Terrorist groups were able to topple Shamir, Peres, and Barak. So is the Palestinian support of Mitzna true, or is it more influenced by Hamas and Jihad? These groups have recently said that they want Sharon still in office! Now my only explanation for this is so that they will have an excuse to continue carrying out their attacks. They are hoping that by their relentless attacks, the Israelis will vote out Sharon from office. And yet, recent elections showed he has strong support.

So this brings me back to my original point, that any change in this matter needs to start with the Palestinians, and the first step is to have a new leader. Of course I don't have the perfect end all solution to the problems in the middle east, but if its done step by step (starting with Palestinian leadership), then maybe peace can one day be achieved.

Any comments?


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29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2133 times:

So this brings me back to my original point, that any change in this matter needs to start with the Palestinians, and the first step is to have a new leader. Of course I don't have the perfect end all solution to the problems in the middle east, but if its done step by step (starting with Palestinian leadership), then maybe peace can one day be achieved.

Palestine had scheduled national elections for new leadership and cabinet representation at the end of January but were prevented from doing so by direct act of Israel, i.e., the closing and cordoning off of borders and checkpoints which put an end to free movement. The Palestinian leadership was also banned by Israel from attending a consultative conference on Palestinian governmental reforms by express invitation of the British prime minister (a very close ally of Israel, by the way) in London. The prime minister was reportedly "miffed".

Many have said that this is overwhelming proof that the government of Israel is NOT interested in a democratic Palestine, which would invariably lead to peaceful relations and a sovereign Palestinian state with internationally recognized borders which would have to be respected, thereby putting an immediate end to Israel's expansion, bulldozing and seizure of Palestinian lands. Furthermore, many have questioned the right of any country to prevent the leadership of a self-governing territory from conducting diplomatic affairs. When questioned on CNN as to why Palestinian officials were denied travel to London, an Israeli government spokesman replied that London had no business engaging terrorists.

These latest moves by Israel remind many of colonial tactics employed during the last few decades to subjugate and deny independence.



User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2122 times:

Hepkat,


Palestine had scheduled national elections for new leadership and cabinet representation at the end of January but were prevented from doing so by direct act of Israel

Interesting, so the only reason Arafat is still in power is because Israel is blocking these so called "democratic elections"? Bull. And you know why Israel closed down the West Bank and Gaza just recently? Because Israel was holding elections!! Last time there was a vote in Israel, Palestinian terrorists killed five Israelis at polling booths and disrupted the process. So how do you solve the problem? By doing what Israel did.

Oh, and by the way, do you have some sort of link showing the Palestinians were going to have elections? That would certainly be world news, I sure didn't hear about it.

Next time, why dont you respond to the points I bring up in my post.



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User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

but were prevented from doing so by direct act of Israel, i.e., the closing and cordoning off of borders and checkpoints which put an end to free movement.

If Palestinian terrorists from all the "political" spectrum hadn't assassinated more than 700 Israelis in hundreds of terror attacks all over the country, there wouldn't be Israeli soldiers and checkpoints in the Palestinian towns and roads.

But of course, Israel has NO right to selfdefense; it is illegitimate for the Israelis to try preventing the barbaric terror acts taking place in their busses, restaurants, discos, coffee shops or shopping malls.

Not later than today, the whole Sharon area (it's the center of the country, the coastal plain near Tel Aviv) had to be "closed" by the police because of a terror alert, creating huge traffic jams; actually, it has paralized the center of the country for many hours. Thanks to the presence of the IDF in the territories, 2 suicide bombers have been arrested in a Palestinian taxi trying to reach an Israeli city. Many dozens innocent lives have been saved today; sadly, there is not a 100% success, and some of these evil killers manage to reach the Israeli territory. Once there, it's tremendously difficult to localize them, since everybody is able to walk freely wherever he wants.

Here's an excerpt from today's Haaretz newspaper: (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/260275.html)

Two Islamic Jihad activists on the way to carrying out a suicide bombing were caught Thursday evening near the West Bank city of Nablus. The two were apprehended after IDF soldiers stopped a Palestinian cab with five passengers. The soldiers found an explosive belt in the possession of the men.

The region was placed on high alert earlier in the day following intelligence warnings of a possible terrorist infiltration. However, following the capture of the terrorists, the alert was lowered.

Earlier in the evening IDF troops killed a Hamas activist east of the city of Taibeh, on the Green Line. It is still not clear if the two incidents are connected. Police also closed off the road between the Haroeh and Hefer junction in the West Bank after a suspicious figure was seen in the area.

A unit of reserve soldiers noticed the man, who arose their suspicions. The man didn’t respond to their request to halt, and was subsequently shot. It is still unclear if he is terrorist or an innocent bystander

Border Police officers were scouting the area and had set up roadblocks at the entrance to towns in the area. The search effort was focusing on the area around the village of Taibeh, and there were long traffic jams in the Sharon region as a result of the roadblocks.

Earlier in the afternoon, Border Policemen shot dead a man who stabbed an officer on the Wadi Ara Road, near the Israeli Arab village of Umm al Fahm.

Border Police officers patrolling the region had considered the man to be suspicious-looking and asked him to stop for questioning. The man, an Umm al-Fahm resident, approached the officers and stabbed one of them in the torso, lightly wounding him. Other officers then shot him dead.

Police checked to see if the man was carrying explosive material, but did not find any. Some of his neighbors reported that he was mentally unstable.

Police commissioner Shlomo Aharonisky said that the assailant had also attempted to grab one of the officer's weapons, and that the police reacted appropriately to the apparent threat.





The price to ensure some kind of security in Israel is terribly high, and endless; two Israeli soldiers (19 and 20) were killed last night, during an anti-terror operation.





But of course...it is more fashionable not to mention these F A C T S, to ignore these large-scale terror campaigns, and to simply accuse Israel of willfully preventing a new Arafatian election comedy.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2104 times:

TBar, the Palestinians had scheduled their elections long before the Israeli did theirs. This election was announced several months ago and was to have seen the choosing of a new Palestinian leader. I'm not sure what kind of news you guys are getting in the U.S. at this time, but this was all over the news here in Europe.

In June, 2002, the Palestinians announced new elections scheduled for January 20, 2003:

JERICHO, West Bank (CNN) -- The Palestinian Authority announced Wednesday that presidential and legislative elections will be held in January, and a Palestinian official said authority President Yasser Arafat will run for re-election.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/06/26/palestinian.elections/index.html

Then on December 21, 2002, the Israeli government voted to have early elections. In an apparant rebuff of Palestinian efforts, Israeli elections were scheduled for the EXACT same week as the Palestinian's:

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel's parliament voted overwhelmingly Monday to hold early elections, following a rejection of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Middle East peace policies.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9812/21/israel.03/index.html

The Israeli government then closed off all borders and imposed curfews on the Palestinian territory, DESPITE their efforts to hold their national elections which were announced months BEFORE the Israeli's. This in effect stifled all Palestinian efforts since there could be no free movement of Palestinian citizens. The Palestinian election had to be consequently called off:

RAMALLAH, West Bank (CNN) -- The Palestinian general election scheduled for January 20 has been postponed until Israel withdraws from all Palestinian cities and territories, Palestinian cabinet minister Saeb Erakat said Sunday.

Holding the election would be impossible while Israel is imposing curfews and closures in Palestinian areas, Erakat said.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/12/22/palestinian.elections/index.html

So you see TBar, I HAVE answered your questions. My answer was just not what you wanted to hear.



User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2099 times:

Oh, and by the way, do you have some sort of link showing the Palestinians were going to have elections? That would certainly be world news, I sure didn't hear about it.

I'm always appalled whenever I go back to the U.S. over what passes as international news. Suffice it to say, unless you have satellite service, U.S. households are being shamefully kept in the dark with regards to international affairs.

When I questioned friends of mine about world affairs, CURRENT and IMPORTANT world affairs, no one had any idea what I was talking about. I might as well had been talking about Martian affairs. These are intelligent, college grads in good jobs by the way, yet all they could manage to do was chant "Israel good, Arab bad". The U.S. media simply has to do a better job of keeping the American citizenry informed about what's happening beyond their own borders.



User currently offlineTodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

So you see TBar, I HAVE answered your questions. My answer was just not what you wanted to hear.


What I see is that you're continuing to ignore THE reason why the IDF had to re-enter PA zones; this behaviour is called "bad faith", and from the part of a "moderator" it's particularly weird.



I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineAerLingus From China, joined Mar 2000, 2371 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

I apologize, but were the Palestinians not offered a seperate state in 1948?
If they were, was the size deemed not adequate for them?
Is the real sticking point in the issue Jerusalem, since that is where many of the important religious sites are located?



Get your patchouli stink outta my store!
User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1871 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2062 times:

To give peace a chance, Israel has to change its system.
It reminds me of the French 3rd Republic, that failed to prevent the disaster of 1939, and the 4th republic, that collapsed with the Algerian war.
What was the problem? The parliament election was fully proportional. As a result, it was impossible to have a clear majority . Prime ministers had to make coallitions. That's why some goverment lasted for only 24 hours. That's why there was no clear leadership. The government had to deal with all the parties of the coalition.

France started to wakeup when De Gaulle changed the constitution, to give France enough stability.
I don't say that the French system has to be coipied. In fact, I would like to have a combination of our system with the proportional.
It could be something like the winner gets at least 51% of the deputies; the other seats are given to the other parties based on the election result.
Today, in Israel, Sharron would be able to conduct his politics, and not try to make all the parties happy, and, as a result, have everyone unhappy.

Of course, and as a consequence, the small religious parties would still be in the Knesset, but they would loose their influence.
Is it really bad? That's another debate.

Teva



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User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2054 times:

Teva,

Excellent analysis. In this case, I dont think its bad at all if religious parties in the Knesset lose power and influence. The most dangerous political party, Shas, lost six seats, and a relatively new party, Shinui, gained those six seats. We will see what this means.

Today, in a statement to the associated press, Hamas said they were ready to take over leadership from Yassir Arafat. That is a frightening thought, and very bad news. Hamas already is a violent terrorist organization, and the last thing the Palestinians need is for them to be their leadership.



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User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2058 times:

So how did the government react to this? Through a vote, they expelled the two members from the Knesset.

Tbar220,
You should be very careful here about what you are saying because this is NOT what happened. It was the ‘Central Election Committee’ that said (after voting) they can’t run in the next election. They didn’t expel them from the present Knesset and the government has nothing to do with this committee. It is 100% independent.

Hepkat,
Lets not forget the sequence of events in here, ok?
Between 94 to 96 Israel withdrew from the PA cities under suicide attacks in Israeli cities (which killed more than 400 Israelis without any retaliation) and then the PA started the Intifada in 2000. After more than 120 Israelis were murdered on March 2002 Israel re-entered the PA cities (not all of them, Gaza for example) on April 2002.

As YOU said, PA announcement on election came on June 2002 when Israel already was in. From your post one can understand that the PA announce an election and Israel moved in to prevent them. That is, of course, not the truth.

More than that, in your statements to prove your point you said:

Then on December 21, 2002, the Israeli government voted to have early elections. In an apparant rebuff of Palestinian efforts, Israeli elections were scheduled for the EXACT same week as the Palestinian's:

Again not true. What happened was that the Labour party left the government. Sharon had 2 options. To create a narrow extreme right government (which he didn’t want then and doesn’t want now) or to go to the president and tell him that under the present Knesset there is no chance to built a strong government and ask him to declare a new election.
Sharon didn’t want this election, the people of Israel didn’t want them but there was no choice and the president declared an election. Under the Israeli law the election had to take place in no more than 90 days. This is how the date was fixed and it has nothing to do with the PA date. By the way, if you count 90 days back from Jan 28th, you won’t get to December 21, 2002!!!

To prove you point you gave a report from CNN:
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel's parliament voted overwhelmingly Monday to hold early elections, following a rejection of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Middle East peace policies.

Two things. First of all, as I said, the Knesset (Israel parliament) didn’t vote on anything in this matter and secondly I was surprise to learn that my PM is Netanyahu and not Sharon. I checked your link and found out that in a way to prove your point on things that happened in Israel on late 2002, you gave a report from ... 1998!!!

Great work Hepkat, great work.




Long live the B747
User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1871 posts, RR: 16
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2063 times:

Tbar220, thank you very much.
I have the same concern as you regarding Palestinian leadership.
And I will make a link with the first part of my analysis.

Should Israel have got political stability, there would probably have been a solution with Arafat at a time he had some influence. Today, he is too old and sick. Even if some people reading this post will not like it, I maintain it would have been better to find a solution with Arafat. WHY ? Because all the Palestinian are not Muslims. A large group are Christians. Arafat's wife is Christian. If he is replaced by extremist Muslims, this will endup in a fight between Jews and Muslims. And it is not the problem. the problem is to have Paletinians and Israelis living peacefully in their entities(countries?) and doing business.
The point is that Barrak (or his predecessors) has not been able to achieve this result because of the political instability. One the, he had to give a positive sign to the Religious parties, creating anger amongst the Palestinians. Then, the next day, he was giving positive signs to the Palestinians... risking to loose the majority and the power...

Where is a clear and firm politic line? The only result is the escalation of frustration and hate on both sides

Which is completely stupid, because Israelis and Palestinian have more in common than they think. The same origin, if you refer to the Bible. The same sense of hospitality, that you will find all around the Mediterrennean see.

I have been to Tel Aviv 5 times. During those trips, I have been to Bethleem and Jericho too. What I am saying is the result of my observation and my feelings.
Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Hepkat: Who was running against Herr Arafat even if the elections were held?

TNNH


User currently offlineTwaneedsnohelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

answer: Hamas - the same glorious resistance fighters and fathers of palestine and Islam who blow up discos and pizza huts - a group of regular thomas jeffersons.

anyone now want to wager a guess why israel gave about half a second of credibility to this "exercise in democrcy"

of coruse not.

TNNH


User currently offlineTodareisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2038 times:

Great Avi, thanks a lot for this bright answer...




I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2021 times:

What I see is that you're continuing to ignore THE reason why the IDF had to re-enter PA zones;

Alternatively, you are continuing to ignore all other aspects of the discussion.

The issue of entering PA zones is much like the chicken & egg circular argument....



ADG


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

Avi,

Thanks for clarifying this for me. I actually just saw this on a news report saturday afternoon. We get broadcast TV News from Israel every Saturday at noon on one of the local channels here. The program bit was called Ro'im Olam (I would spell it in Hebrew, but don't know how to do it on the post). Since I hadn't heard about this situation with the two members, that was what I got from their mentioning of it. Mostly the program was how the Arabs were reacting to the elections.



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User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1997 times:

My apologies for posting that old news article. I didn't have much time and thought I'd do a quick search on CNN. I should have checked the date.

My original point though still stands. The Palistinians were ready to have a free and fair election, but were prevented from doing so by INTERNAL curfews and border blockades by Israeli forces. I fail to see how the free movement of Palestinian citizens in their own territory poses a security risk to Israel. It seems more likely to me and others that a democratic Palestinian would spoil the plans of the Israeli government.



User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

Forget the date Hepkat, didn’t Netanyahu as a PM ring a bell?  Smile  Smile  Smile

There are many steps you should do before you can do an election. The PA didn’t do anything beyond step one, the declaration about an election, and they could do some other steps even if Israel was inside their cities. They didn’t do anything at all, and why should they?
Arafat doesn’t want an election. The international community pressed, so they said what they said (and you bought it, that was the purpose of it), the pressure stopped and so are the elections plans.

I fail to see how the free movement of Palestinian citizens in their own territory poses a security risk to Israel.

First of all, when the Intifada began there were many incidents where PA opened fire on Israeli cars, killing many people, from PA cars while driving. This is why we put closer on the PA cities.
More than that, a free movement of PA makes their life easier when they want to enter Israel to blow up themselves.
From time to time we have to remove the curfew so the PA can buy things etc and this is about the time that you hear about a suicide attack in Israel. This is exactly what happened a month ago when 2 suicide bombers took advantage of the fact that the curfew in Nablus was remove, entered Israel and murdered 23 people (8 of them were not even Israelis).
Do you REALLY can’t understand it or just don’t want to?




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User currently offlineTodareisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

I fail to see how the free movement of Palestinian citizens in their own territory poses a security risk to Israel.


You "fail to see"...you just don't want to see the most obvious facts; and to have one recent example to "see" what you fail to see...you should simply read the thread "Explosive belt found in mosque"; here's an excerpt:

The militants, who were travelling in a Palestinian cab carrying five passengers, were apprehended Thursday evening by IDF soldiers after the region had been placed earlier on high alert following intelligence warnings of a possible terrorist infiltration. The terrorists were caught at a roadblock near the village of Talusa, north of the West Bank city of Nablus.








I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

Perhaps if the Israelis confined themselves to israel rather than stealing the land that is not theirs and building illegal settlements knowing that the soldiers will protect them and thus annexing the land for further israeli expansion the problem wouldn't be anywhere near as bad.






ADG


User currently offlineTodareisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2804 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1948 times:

Perhaps if ADG would open her eyes...and not willfully "forget" all what's happened over the last decade, she would stop repeating the same terror-condoning arguments...


I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1943 times:

Actually Toda, it's YOU who sees the situation with rose coloured glasses, forgetting ALL Isreal has done to Palestine, preferring and only to remember what Palestine has done to Israel.

You appear to be part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Many others, myself included, can see both countries for what they are.




ADG


User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Way to stay on topics guys. I wish when I started this topic I could ban ADG and Toda....oh well.


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User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1945 times:

Why Tbar? so you could stick with your one sided comments? so lets look at your statement:

So how did the government react to this? Through a vote, they expelled the two members from the Knesset.

Is that the way a democracy handles it's dissenters? Voted in by the people and out by the politicians? That's not democracy.





ADG


25 Tbar220 : ADG, Why dont you take off your shades and read the rest of the statement. If you had noticed, the decision was overturned. In any other country where
26 Tbar220 : As to the accusation of me wanting to hear only one-sided comments, I was hoping perhaps to have some discussion about this. I personally dont think t
27 ADG : In any other country where a member of the parliament preached the countries destruction, went to neighbors to preach this, they wouldn't be allowed t
28 Hepkat : Way to stay on topics guys. I wish when I started this topic I could ban ADG and Toda....oh well. I'm afraid I have to agree with ADG regarding this c
29 Todareisinger : Is that the way a democracy handles it's dissenters? Voted in by the people and out by the politicians? That's not democracy. You're right...teach Isr
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