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A British View: "old Europe Vs. New America?"  
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Posted (11 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1501 times:

Article in the "New York Observer", written by the former editor in chief of the London Observer:

http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage6.asp

What do you think?

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1497 times:

I find it a good article. Maybe I don't agree with everything he's saying, but it does give you something to think about.


Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 1486 times:

But this complex task cannot be undertaken if we divide the world into the Manichean simplicities of George W. Bush: Those who are not for America must necessarily be against America.

I wonder if, in the meantime, the President understands that allies should always be allies of their own free will.

NoUFO



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 1484 times:

>>>I wonder if, in the meantime, the President understands that allies should always be allies of their own free will.<<<

Do you mean President Bush or President Chirac?




You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 1479 times:

FDXmech: hehe ... good one, you scored.
Let's say both, Chirac and Bush.

NoUFO



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 1475 times:

NoUFO, I couldn't resist.  Smile


You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1457 times:

Try the NY Times, to view the full two page article requires a "FREE" registration.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/19/international/europe/19CHIR.html

"BRUSSELS, Feb. 18 — "New Europe" barked back at "old Europe" today, deepening the continental rift over Iraq after President Jacques Chirac of France told Central and Eastern European countries to keep their views on Iraq to themselves or risk losing their chance to join the European Union.

"We thought we were preparing for war with Saddam Hussein and not Jacques Chirac," said Alexandr Vondra, deputy foreign minister of the Czech Republic, one of the European Union applicants that have drawn French ire by openly supporting the United States and Britain in the Iraqi crisis. Mr. Vondra said his country and its immediate neighbors "definitely cannot remain silent," as Mr. Chirac advised on Monday.

The French president, in an unusually emotional outburst in Brussels after the European Union meeting on Monday about Iraq, derided the Central and Eastern European countries that have signed letters expressing their support for the American policy on Iraq for being "badly brought up," and having missed "an opportunity to keep quiet."



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1396 times:

Another interesting article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,899911,00.html




Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1387 times:

"I wonder if, in the meantime, the President understands that allies should always be allies of their own free will"

I'll rember that with the next "Chrysler-Daimler" dealership I pass or the next box of LU cookies I see in the supermarket...  Yeah sure Sure we're good enough to "buy and sell" but not viewed with (or even tolerated) with a shred of respectfullness "buy" our allie$.... Yeah sure


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

747-451,

it's actually DaimlerChrysler - not the other way around.  Smile I have to admit, I liked Daimler-Benz better, though. Who cares for Chrysler cars?
Having that said, it was a nice move from Daimler's management to care for our American friends at the Detroit facilities who may have worked hard, but in vain.

NoUFO



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

NoUfo,

For 40 years my family has owned Chrysler products, but the '87 New yorker I know own will be the last, since under Daimler's control, the cars are more like the listless, boring and generic products produced in Old europe, and quite unlike the dymanic, daring and sensational cars under the Chrysler Corporation. Yes our German friends sought out and bought a "cash cow" in Jeep, since Mercedes is not the marque it used to be  Smile.

(PS Chrysler's workers never worked in "vain", they produced some of the most unique cars ever produced here from the SuperBird and Cuda of the 70's , domination in NASCAR, the invention of the practical and saleable MiniVan (as opposed to the horrible under powered things such as the HiAce, MicroBus etal), scientific research (such as the Turbine Car program of the 60's), truly affordable vehicles for the masses (K Car, Valiant etc) and during the Iacocca administration, brought the company a cohesive product line and astounding success and profitablity--better than Ford, GM and Mercedes...What is Mercedes distinction anyway? the C111 and a few staff cars perhaps  Smile?)


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7917 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1353 times:

The Mercedes distinction? From a British point of view (to partially come back to the original topic  Big thumbs up) it's probably quality. Compared to American macho toboggans it's understatement and decent luxury (and probably quality again). Compared to other German cars it's mostly the bigger price tag which is maybe made of better cardbox.

I'm sorry to hear your are not pleased with the outcome of the Chrysler takeover. Hopefully, Airbus does better when they buy Boeing.  Smile

NoUFO



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1343 times:

"The Mercedes distinction? From a British point of view (to partially come back to the original topic ) it's probably quality"--

Yes, Lexus and Infiniti make wonderful luxury cars that beat "European" brands in reliability, pinache, value and quality--who needs "heritage" anyway especially with all those staff cars from the past... Smile

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if Boeing is sold to Airbus, of course with all those subsidies (and profits from all the business deals in Iraq) they could afford to buy GE as well...

PS my Macho Toboggan will beat your wimpy little box at the trafficlight and more importantly, in the crash test any day....



User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1336 times:

Excellent article.

The Bush Administration was and is right to remember the crime visited upon us on September 11th, 2001 as the only justification needed for hunting down those who pose the biggest threats to America and, if possible, bringing them to face the glare of our justice system or, if not , terminating them on the spot with extreme prejudice.

What 9/11 does not excuse is the establishment of a pent up post-Cold War frat boy idealogical kegger. Donald Rumsfeld reminds me of a pro quarterback heading up a Superbowl team who decides to ignore the game and do color commentary on it before it's over. If you want a chair on Crossfire, Rummy, do us a favor ....take your F-bombs to CNN and leave the real bombs to the pros.

The reigning morals in the Bush Administration is..."We're very conservative, we don't care if you disagree with us, you'll just have to deal with us, tough sh*t." This article is a reminder that the rest of the world is ready to respond "Ok. ....Tough sh*t back."


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1334 times:

"What 9/11 does not excuse is the establishment of a pent up post-Cold War frat boy idealogical kegger. Donald Rumsfeld reminds me of a pro quarterback heading up a Superbowl team who decides to ignore the game and do color commentary on it before it's over. If you want a chair on Crossfire, Rummy, do us a favor ....take your F-bombs to CNN and leave the real bombs to the pros."

As opposed to the Carter/Clintonesque "the world is a peaceful village" mediocrity of do nothingness despite the warnings from allies such as france and enemies such as Sudan...Right eave the real bombs to Mike Farrell, Phil Donahue, Flush Limpballs, Sean Hannity and Janet Waco Reno....



User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1325 times:

OOOOOh-kay.

And that had........what? to do with anything?



User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

You brought up morals and righteousness....so as much of a bust Bush is, it appears that the past (dem) admins are really NO better.

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

But I wasn't talking about the past Democratic Administration.....or was I? Lemme check. Nope. Nuthin about the Dems.

My post was about the Bushies. I don't particularly care for the Bushies. Apparently you don't either. Ya didn't much like the Clintonistas either. That's fine, I hear ya. I slept a little more secure with Slick & Little Willie in charge, ..... that's just me.

But lumping together Sean Hannity and Mike Farrell as the same enemy is kind of a bizzarre mental copout.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1300 times:

No lumping them together is lumping together all those who have absolutely no clue. (Farrell, typical pie in the sky Utopian Socialist self hating American, Hannity, right wing reactionary neanderthal bible thumping jingoistic American)

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