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Compulsory Military Service  
User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Posted (11 years 2 months 5 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

I would like to know what you all think about that? Do u think its ok to draft males while females dont have to do anything?

Regards,
Tom

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLapper From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 1558 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 1076 times:

I agree with national service. I think if we still had it in this country, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. If all young men had to do a minimum of 2 years service, they would learn some discipline and respect.

God, I sound like I'm about 78.


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 1068 times:

And why only males?

Regards,
Tom



User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 4 hours ago) and read 1052 times:

Traditionally, the males went into the army while the females took over their jobs in industry in times of war.
That way the impact on vital industries from the fact that the men were away soldiering was limited.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 969 times:

I think it´s rubbish, when I spent my service in the Swedish navy, many of the guys where hard-core criminals (I´m not one of them). Giving them training
in handling of weapons and how to organize raids wasn´t too clever...


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 942 times:

I think the draft is bullshit, as a matter of principle as well as economically.

Principle: I think it violates human rights to make people use weapons. When there is an alternative to it, like in Germany (we call it "civilian service" and our healthcare system would more or less collapse without it), it still violates every individual's right of free decision.

Economic effect: Well, the government takes hundreds of thousands of young possible workers out of the economy, which is a pretty effective way to weaken economies.

By the way, I respect most soldiers deeply, I just don't like the idea of being forced to join armies of soldiers or orderlies. And I specifically dislike the fact that I'll have to do so this summer.  Sad

Avion, in order to reply to your thread starter: Since I think CMS should be abolished altogether, I don't bother that much if women should be included or not. But since women give birth to children, raise them in most of the cases and care for them when they are old (nurses), I think it would be wrong to include them into CMS systems. Using a pathetic phrase: "They already do enough to keep our society going!"

If there's no draft in your country - be happy!

Regards

[Edited 2003-02-22 17:20:58]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13046 posts, RR: 78
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 3 hours ago) and read 893 times:

No prospect of it returning to the UK, no military requirement (and it was abolished at the height of the cold war too, in the late 50's).
Plus the armed services never liked it, they prefer quality over quantity, while many conscripts served well in Korea, Malaya, Suez to name a few, warfare has got more complex since then.
The experience of Northern Ireland, The Falklands War and the difficult 'peacekeeping' operations in places like the former Yugoslavia also mitigate against it.
For the UK, conscription was unusual, only after the slaughter of 1915 was it brought in, and again in WW2 when the nation faced a real threat to it's survival.
Post war, policing occupied Europe and withdrawing from the colonies required it to be retained.
Even at the height of 'Empire', the army was a small (by European standards) professional force.
As it is today.
In the 1950's it was generally unpopular, my Father was called up, in the army's Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, the furthest he got was West Germany, he learned a trade which stood him in good stead when he was de-mobbed, I suspect he was an exception though, he did not mind it at all, though many of his comrades hated it.
In the 1950's several Royal Navy ships were damaged by disgruntled conscripts.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 885 times:

I believe that compulsory military service. We have it in Switzerland, and I believe that everyone who goes through the experience comes out the better for it. At the age of 18 or 19, being forced to live a life of strict discipline and responsibility for the safety of others is a welcome change from being pampered at home, and entering the "real world" with no idea of what responsibility means. Admitedly, the Swiss Army has gotten a little lax in the past decade, but it is still a welcome wake-up call.

In the Swiss Army, if you show some level of promise and initiative, you can quickly become a non-commissioned officer, and from there an officer. Where else but with military service do you have the opportunity to manage and lead a large number of people, be responsible for their performance and behaviour, etc., all before the age of 20 or 21?

You get out of such service what you put into it. If you tell yourself that you hate it, you will. But if you say, "Hey, I'm here, I have no choice in the matter, I might as well see if I can enjoy it.", you will as well. We frequently laugh at all those guys who tried everything to get themselves kicked out of the army in the first couple of weeks at boot camp.

Aloges,

Principle: I think it violates human rights to make people use weapons. When there is an alternative to it, like in Germany (we call it "civilian service" and our healthcare system would more or less collapse without it), it still violates every individual's right of free decision.

With rights comes responsibility to defend those rights. What about your responsibilities, eh? Or should someone else have to bleed for your rights if/when it's required?

Economic effect: Well, the government takes hundreds of thousands of young possible workers out of the economy, which is a pretty effective way to weaken economies.

If the percentage of the population in the military is less than the unemployment rate, that arguement is whitewash. Germany currently has 10% unemployment, so there is hardly a shortage of labor due to the demands of military manpower.

By the way, I respect most soldiers deeply, I just don't like the idea of being forced to join armies of soldiers or orderlies. And I specifically dislike the fact that I'll have to do so this summer.

Well, I'm glad you are going - but remember what I said, you take out what you put into it. You can have a great, rewarding experience serving others and your country, if you take the responsibility with pride.

Charles


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 876 times:

Cfalk:

Why only men? Do women not need this great rewarding experience?

Tom


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 2 hours ago) and read 864 times:

Charles, I certainly can't judge whether being a member of the armed forces is a great experience - I haven't had that experience and will most likely never have it.

But as for responsibility: In modern democracies, everyone is responsible for what he has chosen to be responsible for. This applies to all areas of life, so why should there be an exception for military service? To me, choosing what to do is a fundamental part of democracy, especially if it is about nine to ten months of one's life like in Germany. That time may seem short to someone at the age of 36-45, like you, but I think it's very long.

Again, I have no problem with most of the military itself, since it's the military that defends my freedom. But in a free society, people must be allowed to contribute to that society the way they want to do so - all of the time.

Regards



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 862 times:
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Being shouted at in my face and waking up every day at 6 am day after day is not my idea of "discipline".



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineLapper From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 1558 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 854 times:

OK, you can have women too if you want.

Arsenal, don't you think that the country would avoid a lot of it's problems by having people serve their country? Maybe some sort of "civilian" service too if you didn;t want to do military service?

I also think (a bit off track), that we should crack down on illegal immigrants in the way that Holland has done, and have the same sort of thing as the US, where all new immegrants have to swear allegiance.


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 53
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 850 times:

Right now, there is a bill going through the US House of Representatives, HR 163, that states the following:

"To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes."

"SEC. 2. NATIONAL SERVICE OBLIGATION.

(a) OBLIGATION FOR YOUNG PERSONS- It is the obligation of every citizen of the United States, and every other person residing in the United States, who is between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a period of national service as prescribed in this Act unless exempted under the provisions of this Act.

(b) FORM OF NATIONAL SERVICE- National service under this Act shall be performed either--

(1) as a member of an active or reverse component of the uniformed services; or

(2) in a civilian capacity that, as determined by the President, promotes the national defense, including national or community service and homeland security."

Those are just a few excerpts from it...as of 1/7/2003 it is in the House Armed Services committee for discussion...

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 1 hour ago) and read 847 times:

I hope, for the sake of all young Americans, that this bill will not pass. Otherwise: "Briiiiing 'em home! Bring our brothers home!" Who came up with this?


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months ago) and read 831 times:

I belive that there should be some form of compulsory service, not just military service. I think that the US should bring back some of the service programs of the New Deal era, like the Civilian Conservation Corps and the Works Progress Administration. I think a 2 year stint as either a member of the military, or as a National Parks Service or U.S. Forest Service Ranger, or some sort of service position that would help train those without direction in their lives, or allow those to serve their country in the best way they can.

User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 824 times:
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National service does have it's merits, teaching discipline, respect and punctuality etc. But what good does it really do? A soldier is a trained killer, and as far i'm concerned, that's what you'll turn people into with compulsary military service.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 808 times:

There are no merits to national service and i'm against it. You cannot force people into a combat situation, you only need to look at the Returned Servicemans Syndrome to see the proof you need.






ADG


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 800 times:

Well, this is a touchy subject, obviously. Personally, I feel that if we resort to military conscription, that it SHOULD be across both gender lines. If women want equal rights (translated as equal pay and equal power), then why not give them just what they asked for?

I find it so ironic that as blatantly sexist as a "Male Only" draft is, that they aren't saying anything.

I guess that Sexual Discrimination is ok as long as it puts you at some kind of advantage.

I've always thought that the reason we drafted young males was because they were the most physically fit. That may be true. But there's more to it:

They are snotty and in need of some discipline. I think that's the real reason so many of todays kids are opposed to this war. Not because they are opposed to war per se, but they don't want to give up their sheltered, spoiled, dot-com way of life that they are so used to. To them, the thought of 1) getting yelled at at 5AM and 2) actually having to DO something (besides hassling people online) is a terrifying thought.

Besides, if we tried to draft anyone over age 35, those people would write nasty letters to their congressmen threatening to recall them.

I think that another reason this "war" has hit a resonant note with todays generation is that there is finally something in their life to give it meaning and siginificance, and to define their era. This goes way beyond whatever music and TV sitcoms are popular (musicians, movies and TV shows come and go, but Major Historical events like these will always be part of our collective phsyche): My grandparents dealt with the Great Depression and World War II. My parents dealt with Vietnam and the whole Hawk/Dove issue, along with almost weekly assasinations.

My generations greatest moments were the invention of the CD and the three minute Gulf War I. Whoop-de-doo.

And, up until now, todays generation was even more wimpy than mine: Political Correctness,The Internet, and N-Stink.

Personally, I beleive that secretly, deep down inside, everyone who is between ages 17-25 today is THRILLED that this is going on.



User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 789 times:

"They are snotty and in need of some discipline. I think that's the real reason so many of todays kids are opposed to this war. Not because they are opposed to war per se, but they don't want to give up their sheltered, spoiled, dot-com way of life that they are so used to. To them, the thought of 1) getting yelled at at 5AM and 2) actually having to DO something (besides hassling people online) is a terrifying thought."

Matt D, you's inna genralyzin? Seriously, "todays kids" will learn that they have to do something pretty fast - otherwise, they will not succeed in their jobs. Also, yelling at people is something I've been told not to do, and I'm sure a lot of US kids has also been told not to do it. So why should we appreciate it once we turn 18 and are put into rotten barracks? Well, I'm directly affected by the draft... And it'll take 10 months of my youth. If I hadn't objected serving in the armed forces, that would be nine months, but anyway... I do already know that I'll have to work for the money I hope to earn some day, I don't have to be told by a priggish arrogant training officer. And I'll be extremely happy if that work turns out to be stressful, exhausting and demanding - in other words: long range airline pilot. Requires a bit of discipline, doesn't it?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 48
Reply 19, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 784 times:

Ok...I did take some liberties and make some generalizations, granted.

But, with that in mind, I would like to rebut your reply:

will learn that they have to do something pretty fast - otherwise, they will not succeed in their jobs.

I am seeing this already. They show up 10 minutes late. They leave 15 minutes early. They take 4 sick days a month. I get e-mails all the time from people of this age brackett. Their grammar is sloppy, their work ethics (or rather the lack of it) usually piss off us folks that have been here awhile. They never admit their mistakes (which are a part of learning), and seldom pay attention in meetings and almost never have anything to contribute to it. And don't EVEN get me started on what I see in the restaurants and supermarkets.


Also, yelling at people is something I've been told not to do

In a perfect world, I would agree with you. But have you ever heard the phrase "Cruel to be kind"?

There have been countless times, both when I was in school and since, where I screwed something up, or did something I shouldn't have. I resented it at the time, but looking back, I'm glad my superiors (parents, teachers, bosses) did it because I learned from my mistakes and never repeated them.

Well, I'm directly affected by the draft... And it'll take 10 months of my youth. If I hadn't objected serving in the armed forces, that would be nine months

That's called living in the US. We all know that the real reason for this war is oil. As long as electricity, cars, and plastics are a part of your life, you have no argument.

I do already know that I'll have to work for the money I hope to earn some day

If you sincerely believe this, then you are heads and shoulders above your peers, maturity wise. Three thumbs up to you.

I don't have to be told by a priggish arrogant training officer.

Of course NOBODY likes this, but it is something that you can apply to your whole life, not just your stint in The Service (assuming you serve). case in point: When I was in High School, I was on the Swimming Team. Our coach was just like that: demanding, loud, in-your-face, and arrogant. At the time, we resented him for it.

But you know what? We went on to win our League Championship three years in a row. I learned self discipline, the importance of finishing a job that I started, and punctuality. Not to mention that at the time, I was in the best physical shape in my life.

To this day, I admire and respect the values that Coach Mount instilled in me. It went way deeper than having to jump in a pool at 5AM and swimming 300 laps. I would do it again.

in other words: long range airline pilot. Requires a bit of discipline, doesn't it?

I'm not a long-range pilot, so I cannot answer that.










User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 781 times:

I did it and it was a life changing experience.

I went to the army for 18 months at the age of 21. In Greece we still have compulsory service with no alternative. (You don't want to serve=you go to jail. But that's another story).

I learned how to live with others. I learned how to distinguish various types of people. I learned the direct connection between acts and results. I felt ready to defend my country if attacked. I learned how to drive a truck. I visited many military airport and Mirage2000's made low passes 50ft above my head and I loved it.

I lived in a small tent with another soldier for 25 days on the mountain. You learn what it is to leave your life in the hands of another man. You learn how difficult life can be. All the shouting and running and yelling has a reason. To make you tougher, to make you grow, to make you a soldier. After all, it's the army.

You learn WHAT WAR REALLY IS. I was in the island of Lemnos, overlooking the turkish (formerly greek) island of Imvros and I was thinking WHAT IF a conflict occured. Damn! You don't want it to happen but then again you KNOW HOW to fight with a riffle or TOW, how to throw a grenade and how to stay alive.

Above all, military service made me a full grown man. And a better man too. In 18 months I learned so much that I couldn't have learned in years of civilian life. Before I went I thought it was wasting of time. I don't believe it now.

Kostas


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 771 times:

Matt D and Kostas, I'd like to take the rare chance to disagree with both of you... Laugh out loud It is a rare chance, isn't it?

I think many people don't need the army to learn what discipline is. Matt has provided a very good example of how it can be learnt in other places, like sports teams. Furthermore, many young people would be able to learn what discipline and responsibility are if it was possible to teach it at school - not in special classes, but in all classes. Nowadays, parents are willing to defend everything their children do, "Don't you say my baby did something wrong!?!?" If they were told where the limits are, there would be a lot less problems.

As for living with other people: you can also learn that in school. At least in my school, which I admit is a lovely place to be pupil at. My school is not only a place where you (try to) learn the thing you need to pass tests, but it is also a place where you live with other people - even if it's only about sharing a table in the classroom.

"If you sincerely believe this, then you are heads and shoulders above your peers, maturity wise. Three thumbs up to you." Trying to corrupt me, eh?  Big grin

Seriously, and fearing to sound arrogant: I think I might well be. But most of my peers have never had to provide electric power to a group they were travelling with, staying in a remote house in the Austrian Alps. Me and two to three other folks had to get down to the tiny hydroelectric every second day, empty its reservoir, climb in the son-of-a-bitch, clean the turbine inlets and get it working again as fast as possible. Also, most of my peers have not been encouraged by their parents to go on student exchange for a year like I have been. It was a great time, no question, but did get weird and tough, too. And no help from mommy or daddy available.

Stopping the self-censing; what I want to say is that I don't see the need for compulsory military service for the sake of discipline. If schools get more demanding and parents stop their "don't bother my baby or I'll sue you"-trips, those "babies" will turn into men and will be more reliable without cutting in people's basic freedoms.

Regards,
aloges



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 696 times:

This bill, like the majority of bills that are introduced into the congress, will not pass. Congressman Stark and others are using this as a political tactic to dissuade collegues from voting for war with Iraq.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (11 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 694 times:

Aloges

If schools get more demanding and parents stop their "don't bother my baby or I'll sue you"-trips

Do you really believe this will ever happen??  Smile

those "babies" will turn into men and will be more reliable without cutting in people's basic freedoms

You have to understand that the primary purpose of military service is to get an idea of what war is, learn how to bear arms and learn how to defend your country instead of waiting from others to do it. Cutting people's freedoms is what I used to see it myself too before I joined the army. I didn't enjoy it, I wanted to leave all the time and it was relieving when I was released. But it has to be this way otherwise it would be just a youth camping.

Kostas


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