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Alberta Separation  
User currently offlineIamcanadian From Canada, joined May 2001, 734 posts, RR: 1
Posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1140 times:

All you fellow Canadians or curious Americans, post your views on the separation of Alberta. Personally, I think it will be great. We (Alberta) could easily survive on our resources! It would also be cool to start a revolution!  Smile


Shut up and calculate.
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1117 times:

I view Klein (Ralph, not Kevin) as an enemy of Canada. This idiot is trying to promote the separation of Alberta based on what he considered unfair treatment of Alberta by Ottawa.

All this so he can appease the big oil companies he keeps in his back pocket. He has no problem putting oil revenues above national economy issues, the environment or health.

He needs to go and the population of Alberta needs to wake up and realize it.


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1114 times:

You have to protect your own.

Alberta has been treated as a bank by the eastern liberal government in Canada to fund it's failed nationalized programs.

I think Alberta is starting to wake up to this and we are seeing it by these separtist groups forming.

As a voter registered with AIP I hope them the best.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineYXDfan From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1109 times:

Oh please, Ralph is the best to ever happen to this province! Manitoba might even be in a somewhat similar situation if they hadn't gotten rid of Gary Filmon (Good Gary) for that socialist Gary Doer (Bad Gary).

I don't agree with separation one bit, and I don't think that's what Ralph is going for. In talking to him you can clearly understand that, but the headline "Ralph doesn't want to separate" makes for pretty boring headlines and thus the media won't print it.

We do get a raw deal from the federal government, so do most provinces save Ontario and Quebec. We're just stepping up to complain about it. This is no different than the Premiers Council for Health where all Provincial and Territorial leaders have gotten together to keep the pressure on the federal government to live up to their end of the bargain on health care.

Just my 0.02


User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1108 times:

your views on the separation of Alberta

Laughable at best. Look at what talks and acts of separation did to Quebec. Just silly banter from foolish people.


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1106 times:

Well, Alberta is definitely doing very well economically. Was this always the case? In a country, there are obviously weaker states/provinces and it's only fair that some sort of equalization takes place. I'm not supporting everything the Liberals do, they have many faults, but any prudent federal government, no matter where they hail from, should see it that way too. Otherwise, the rest of Canada should stop supporting the eastern provinces and their poor economies. Same thing for the north, let's stop sending money up there too. But in reality, this is a country and as a unified political entity, money will and should be transferred from richer areas to other areas. There should be reason in this of course, and it should not be meant as an equalization process. But that hasn't been the case.

Alberta has done very well in Canada, but can Albertans assure that they would do well as Alberta only? How much trade is done between Alberta and other provinces? Alberta doesn't have a provincial tax, which speaks volumes about their strong economy.

These are just some thoughts from the top of my head, as I haven't really researched this topic much, but I look forward to seeing other replies from better informed a.net users on this matter.



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1097 times:

Alberta should seperate from Canada-to rid them being attached to the feckless, arrogant and "idiotic" Quebecois.

User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1092 times:

Well, Alberta is definitely doing very well economically. Was this always the case?

Yes. The reason is oil. Oil is the overwhelming and underlying reason for Alberta's economic good fortune. That's why Ralph fears Kyoto. And Alberta has done that (for better or worse) as a province of Canada. Why are they afraid to share the good fortune? Someday soon, maybe Manitoba will be the "have" province with our abundant natural resources, algriculture, fresh water and hydro-electric power. Should we just shut Alberta out then?

Alberta should seperate from Canada-to rid them being attached to the feckless, arrogant and "idiotic" Quebecois.

Hmm....I don't remember any large ethnic group in Alberta who crossed the Atlantic and contributed as significantly to the birth of our Nation as the French.

Although I certainly don't agree with the seperatist movement in Quebec, I think they at least have a much more sound basis to be upset with the rest of Canada then Alberta does.






User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1092 times:

Ralph is a fantastic leader. He speaks his mind, which invariably represents the thoughts of his constituents. Alberta has the worst deal in Confederation....every year billions of $ flow out of the province. This has been the case for decades. Realistically, they would join the US rather than separate.

I view Klein (Ralph, not Kevin) as an enemy of Canada.

I view the never-ending impoverished have-not provinces (such as Manitoba where I used to live as a kid) as the enemies of Canada, constantly supported financially by hard working Alberta and Ontario (and soon Saskatchewan which will likely join the have ranks by 2005).

it must be wonderful to live comfortably in an economically challenged city such as Winnipeg whining about Alberta & Ontario, when they pay your bills.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1084 times:

Hmm....I don't remember any large ethnic group in Alberta who crossed the Atlantic and contributed as significantly to the birth of our Nation as the French.

Are we talking about the same province that sucks subsidies out of the Canadian government these days? The same province that relies on Alberta and Ontario for sustinance? You can go back to the 16-1700s and claim the French had the biggest influence in the formation of Canada, but after the 1800s western colonization was basically done by any group other than the French. The only difference between the Alberta and Quebec sepratist movement is that the Alberta sepratist movement has a much better chance to succeed.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2742 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1083 times:

I think Ralph is a great leader and stands up for Albertan's and that is what a leader is to do. Alberta won't separate and I certainly hope they don't because they are a nice province and Canada really benefits from them.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1076 times:

I agree Dash8King.....Ralph is just politicking.

You can't blame Alberta for being angry though.

There are growing movements in both Alberta & Ontario to have equalization payments to the 8 poor provinces (such as Manitoba) cut off. This would force those provinces to sink or swim (as AB and ON currently do) for provincial revenues & expenditures.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1063 times:

It does make more sense that Klein is really trying to cut or diminish the transfer payments, and of course you can't blame him. But from a federal point of view, it only makes sense for some provinces to effectively support others. There is of course a limit that should be recognized, otherwise as Neil suggests, they'll just merrily continue to survive on the transfer payments.

In Europe where of cousre you have a whole bunch of different countries, under the European Union the established countries basically transfer cash to the new joining countries to help them reach higher standards, which should in effect help Europe as a whole. Infrastructures are improved in the poor countries, and the economy is effectively boosted from a low level to a higher level. Canada is a country and as such should act like one too. Times change, and it's possible that in some decades Alberta isn't as well as it is now. Maybe our dependence on oil will decline sometime into the future. What else does Alberta have to offer?



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1054 times:

I see that all of a sudden Alberta is carrying the rest of the nation's lazy bums.....

I guess Alberta has never enjoyed transfer payments or federal money of any kind. I guess the fur trade that originated in provinces like Manitoba, which were the basis and foundation of the country don't matter any more.

I guess Winnipeg, which was bigger than Edmonton and Calgary together (which were dusty little crap piles before the oil patch) and it's industrial, agricultural, textile, finance and aerospace industries that predated much of Alberta's own attempts don't matter either.

Some of us in the "have nots" have been exploited pretty good to support among other things, technology to extract oil from the tar sands, and support national parks that bring millions to Alberta every year.

Manitoba has been picked apart by the federal government by such things as relocating Air Canada's headquarters, and denying aerospace contracts in favour of other "have" provinces.

Well all I can say is with your attitude don't look for any tears from Manitoba when the demand for your expensive oil drys up, and all of your farms die off because you depleted the water table by pumping all your fresh water into the ground.

We'll just hang out here with our "easy oil", methanol produced from grain, abundant fresh water and hydro-electric power.

Remember, progress along with luck and success are usually cyclical in nature. You just may find yourself a "have not" some time relatively soon.....So go ahead and separate. It's not like having Alberta as part of Canada makes the gas prices any lower.



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1051 times:

The problem is that poor provinces start to depend on the equalization payments and they have no incentive to restructure. For instance, something like 52% of NF's provincial budget is funded by transfer payments, while in ON and AB its zero. I don't see why my tax dollars should support inefficient govt services in NF.

Otherwise, I generally agree with you Nuno (in principal, theoretically).  Big grin

N



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineScotty From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 1999, 1875 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1042 times:

Ah ha. My deja vu radar picks up the usual "subsidy junkies" and "you are enemies of democracy" arguments which get applied to the Scottish Nationalists here in Scotland, by those seeking furtherance of the UK as an outdated form of nation state. Equally, there is the same "we've got all the oil" stuff back. What a coincidence.

I know sod all about the Alberta Independence party, but if things go the same way as they are going in Scotland, then you can expect to be independent in the next ten years.

Slainthe

ps I Luv Calgary, Banff and the Jasper National Park. Never been to Edmonton. Hinton ROCKS!!

Scotty

 Big thumbs up


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

Scotty, the only thing to see in Edmonton is the Mall.  Sad Can't even see the damned Rockies from there!!!  Big grin


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineMaiznblu_757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 5112 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1027 times:

Hmm....I don't remember any large ethnic group in Alberta who crossed the Atlantic and contributed as significantly to the birth of our Nation as the French.

Thats something to be very proud of!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol. I would tear that part out of the history books and replace it with "Aliens put us here".


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1015 times:

"Hmm....I don't remember any large ethnic group in Alberta who crossed the Atlantic and contributed as significantly to the birth of our Nation as the French."

That was in the past (PS in the US maybe since the days of Lafayette). Today you poor Canadians are smoothered by that...



User currently offlineYXDfan From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1006 times:

Ok, here's a newsflash for the doofus from Manitoba who is looking forward to kicking back with his easy oil, natural resources, etc.

You can't develop any of those industries with a backwards, anti-business, proud-to-be-socialist government like the one led by Manitoba Premier Gary Doer.

Lets take a look at which provinces might be prospering soon:
BRITISH COLUMBIA: Under Gordon Campbell (for all his faults), the province is starting to slowly rebuild from the economic ruin left in the wake of the NDP.

SASKATCHEWAN: Oh look at that... another NDP government on the way out. The Saskatchewan Party, when they win the next election, will preside over a remarkable economic turnaround with their "Plan to Grow Saskatchewan".

QUEBEC: The next election is going to bring some very exciting new economic ideas from both the Quebec Liberal Party and the Action Democratique. Quebec hasn't been doing so well under the left-leaning (quelle surprise) Parti Quebecois.

NEWFOUNDLAND: Hey look at that... left-leaning Liberals packin up and makin way for the soon-to-be-elected Conservative Premier Danny Williams. That'll make for all 4 Atlantic provinces with conservative governments. Watch for them to form strong economic ties and to start fighting for their rights for offshore oil and gas that so right belongs to them and not Ottawa.

There seems to be a trend in economic prosperity... GET RID OF THE LEFT WING GOVERNMENTS. Such a shame that Manitobans will soon become the laughing stock of the country as the lone bastion of socialism in government.

All we need to do now is get rid of Chretien and his tax-evading nemesis Paul Martin...


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 994 times:

YDX, you make interesting points, and let's hope the future in Canada is as positive as you are about the prospects. If it's as you see it, then the issues of transfer payments and some provinces supporting others may in fact be diminished into the future.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 981 times:

Nice to see national unity's gone right out the window

User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 968 times:

Hey at least this thread isn't as bad as the typical "YUL topic" So far this thread is a lot more civil  Smile

I have to say that Alberta is doing a lot to try and diversify its economy, just look to Southern Alberta where in the Pincher Creek area giant wind farms continue to spring up. Although we are still very dependant on oil and gas revenues we are at least making steps to diversify.


User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 965 times:

So Alberta wants to separate because it is a net contributor to other Canadian provinces? In a federation (whether formal such as the US or informal such as the EU), I've never seen an instance where money is spread evenly, and every area receives as much as they put in. Money goes where it is needed. Do you think California receives what it puts into the US coffers? Not really. Does West Virginia get more than it puts in? Quite likely (especially given the budget appropriations process). I'm not seeing any secession talk in the US, though.

But I have to ask: What happens if crude oil goes back down to $10/barrel, and agriculture goes into the shitter (as it does seemingly with regularity), and Alberta needs some assistance? Who do you turn to if you are independent?


User currently offlinePHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 954 times:

747-451 wrote:

"Alberta should seperate from Canada-to rid them being attached to the feckless, arrogant and "idiotic" Quebecois."


How are they all that? Because they are proud of their heritage and are determined to preserve it?

Quebec, with its unique culture, is an asset to the entire North American continent. It's amazing how stupid some people's prejudices are...


25 AC320 : Well the government goes too far in preserving the "French culture" to the point of oppressing it upon others, and harming the province. However, its
26 Yyz717 : Money goes where it is needed. Do you think California receives what it puts into the US coffers? Not really. Does West Virginia get more than it puts
27 Airplay : VonRichtofen has it bang on... Agriculture is our #1 export, not oil as everybody seems to believe I drove through Alberta last summer. I've never see
28 Post contains images 777YYC : You're out of your mind, right?
29 VonRichtofen : Airplay I was born in YWG and most of my family is still there. I visit almost every year and I'm sorry but Yyz717 is right. Just because you saw some
30 Dash8King : Ralph Klein is one of the few leaders that remembers that it is the tax payers that employ him through out his whole term and doesn't just remember it
31 Yyz717 : That's proof that you've never been to Manitoba. You should get out more.... Like VonRichtofen, I lived in YWG as a little kid and still visit YWG. YW
32 Post contains links Airplay : I like to present facts to back up my statements they are contested. If you don't beleive me, ask StatsCan. I can't post the huge links because they w
33 Wjv04 : Hey airplay, Being a son of a alberta rancher, i have a question for ya... What did these sick cattle look like from the highway, the same as healty o
34 Post contains links Airplay : Wjv04 I actually visited a farm while I was there. Many farmers were hurredly selling cattle because they were starving. Many had the tell-tale emanci
35 Arrow : Maybe this is a stupid question -- but by what measure is agriculture the number one industry in Alberta? Oil and natural gas (particularly natural ga
36 Yyz717 : Quebec's economy is coming back up.... No, it's not. It has higher than average unemployment, lower than average PCI, growing equalization payment/sup
37 VonRichtofen : "Alberta likes world war in the middle east and domestic unrest in South America." "I bet you Albertans just love George Bush..." Another typical jeal
38 FLYYUL : Quebec led the country in Job creation for the last 3 years.. Quebec now falls within the unemployment/welfare of the Canadian average. For the record
39 Dash8King : I am a money-loving fool but I think Dubya is a moron. I wouldn't even want to share my bed with his drug addict daughters.
40 KAUSpilot : How they hell does a thread about Alberta seperating from Canada revert to Bush bashing? Just can't get America out of your head or something?
41 Dash8King : Haha, that is funny how does a thread about Beautiful Alberta end up in Bush bashing? Guess we just can't over the question of how the hell could you
42 Yyz717 : As best put by many Quebecker federalists, the real separatists in Canada are the English Canadian people, who make a point of not making quebec feel
43 Post contains images Jcs17 : I am a money-loving fool but I think Dubya is a moron. I wouldn't even want to share my bed with his drug addict daughters. Yeah, theyre about to slee
44 Dash8King : Jcs17 If you didn't hit puberty until after 15 then I feel sorry you. How about you show your age and respond without using age as a defense.
45 Dash8King : At least our PM knows that Africa is not a Country and that Nigeria is not a continent.
46 FLYYUL : yes its all a conspiracy.... The IATA and ICAO are based in Montreal because the federal govt is breathing down their backs.... good job Neil.. Care t
47 Captaingomes : And the rivalry continues! Mark, I must admit that the separatists are in Quebec, and not in the rest of Canada. I think the true problem with Quebec
48 Boeing757/767 : As someone who lives in the US and is considering moving to Canada to escape the arrogant policies of the Bush government, I implore Alberta and Quebe
49 FLYYUL : As a Quebecker, who lives in Quebec, and deals with Francophone people on a daily basis. I can assure you, that half the battle/half the insecurity is
50 Post contains images SKYSERVICE_330 : "Guess I just cant get over the question of how Canadians could elect a far-left, America-hating PM, that has single-handedly destroyed the value of t
51 Captaingomes : I think the Canadian dollar is at a realistic level, as the Canadian economy cannot be compared to the American economy. Yes, it would be nice to see
52 Post contains images Dash8King : Clinton and Chretien got along fairly well at least that is how the press portrayed it when they show shots of them golfing together and stuff. Bush a
53 Post contains images Captaingomes : Dash8King, Jcs claims in the SUV thread that he is well endowed, so he must have hit puberty too, unless he's well endowed for a pre-pubescent. And by
54 Dash8King : Yeah, theyre about to sleep with a 13-15 year old that still hasnt hit puberty I'm sure they would sleep with me if they were deprived of alcohol or d
55 Dash8King : I was wrong about Piggy bush she seems to have a nice body but her face is an exact replica of Dubya's.
56 KAUSpilot : It's actually pretty reassuring that Dash8King is under 15 years of age. I guess it's okay to be a moron when you're still a little kid.
57 Captaingomes : I'll disagree with you KAUSpilot. He's the only person on my RU list in that age category, and that's because he shows maturity and knowledge that def
58 Travelin man : I find it interesting that there seems to be so much animosity between provinces in Canada. Underneath the whole "I am Canadian" motto seems to be a l
59 Canadi>nBoy : Yyz717 wrote: "This Canadian welcomes all American input on Canadian issues. I also take issue with a teenage Canadian boy calling the American Presid
60 Dash8King : Thanks Captain, I could post my Learners on here but that doesn't prove much because anyone can doctor it and put new numbers in. At least I am honest
61 Dash8King : BTW I don't think our Educational system would be much better then that of the United States or at least here in the NWT I mean anyone can pass HS her
62 FLYYUL : Well said Canadianboy.... Mark[Edited 2003-02-27 23:25:59]
63 Post contains images FLYYUL : Travelin man, Canadians are still very nice people, but they are a divided people. They create bias's of eachother.. a.) Franco's think the Anglo's wa
64 Yyz717 : Canadian boy, give it a rest. This is a discussion forum. Agree to disagree. Your personal attacks are getting boring.
65 Post contains images 747-451 : "I can assure you, that half the battle/half the insecurity is caused by the unwillingness of English Canadians to view Quebec as distinct." more like
66 Yyz717 : Let me tell you, people on the Montreal board and Montreal aviation constantly read Neil's comments. None of them ever bother to reply or post, and im
67 Post contains images Airplay : Ok, so what's the problem? Why are you still a have not province? How many times do I have to say this: OIL. That's the difference. Why was a crap-pil
68 FLYYUL : Right back at you Neil.. "Well, let's rehash some of Mark's comments recently: 1. There is a conspiracy by all Canadian airlines to underserve YUL on
69 Canadi>nBoy : "Canadian boy, give it a rest. This is a discussion forum. Agree to disagree. Your personal attacks are getting boring." First off, it's "Canadi>nBoy"
70 Yyz717 : However, I suppose I am "personally attacking" you, and I shall refrain from doing so in the future. Thanks. I appreciate it. We're all different. I'm
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