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Bush And God  
User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

Bush and God

What’s all that about God in GWB’s speeches? He rarely opens his mouth without mentioning God. That would not be much of a problem but now he uses God to justify the war with Iraq.

The terrorists hate the fact that ... we can worship Almighty God the way we see fit. The United States was called to bring God’s gift of liberty to every human being in the world”.

"An angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm."

"Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty have always been at war, and we know that God is not neutral between them."

"We are in a conflict between good and evil, and America will call evil by its name."

"The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity."

"There's power, wonder-working power, in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people"


To simply put it: The problem is not the President’s faith. The problem is that, beside other reasons, he uses God to justify the war. And that is unacceptable.

For further reading see http://www.msnbc.com/news/878520.asp?0cl=cR

Kostas

51 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

It seems that Bush is if not controlled at least heavily supported by christian fundamentalists. His target is to restore a "moral order" in the US. It gives him a good base of voters, and as you can see, it's easier to justify a war (the Good vs the Evil).
In a way, he's acting exactly like muslim fundamentalists (their rethoric is exactly the same).
The danger with all that, is the civilisation shock it could trigger.


User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

The terrorists hate the fact that ... we can worship Almighty God the way we see fit.

Yeah, and Bush hates the fact that ... terrorists can worship Allah the way the see fit.

It works both ways.

Both are fundamentalist and both are as dangerous as the other.

When Bush comes out with the stuff he does, I feel like grabbing him and ramming my fist down his gob.

Why is it that born-again Christians are the ones who give you the shits the most?  Smile


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39887 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1784 times:

Dats be'cuz hez a Gawd ferring Conservative sent out ta' whip da' liberals.  Laugh out loud



Signed Trent Lott



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

Thanks, nice post Ovelix!

He is as dangerous as the Islamitic fundamentalists... both justifie their (criminal) actions by god.

/Frederic


User currently offlineMBMBOS From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1747 times:

I think we can attribute these quotes to smart speech writers who know that this kind of rhetoric has broad appeal in the U.S. Think of it as America's specialized brand of sophistry.

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1724 times:

The terrorists hate the fact that ... we can worship Almighty God the way we see fit.

Well, on that, I agree with him. OBL has said the one demand he has of the U.S. is that we convert to Islam, or there'll be no peace. He calls us "infidels", does he not? That , to me, tells me he has no tolerance for how others-mostly Christians and Jews-worship God.

As for his faith in God, that probably comes from the fact that the President is an alcoholic. He hasn't had a drink in years, but alcohol almost ruined his life when he was a younger man. He turned to faith when he was in deep doo-doo, as it were, and it's been something that, whether anyone of us likes it or not, has been a guide to him for two decades now.

One thing about a more fundamentalist faith that bothers a lot of people-and that includes myself-is that it teaches a very black/white world. I don't mean that in a racial sense, but in the sense of morality. There is a right ,and there is a wrong. There are very few shades of gray. That can be great as a personal compass, and I have no problem with that, but in the world of politics, it can cause some problems, as there are lots of shades of gray in political/military/diplomatic discourse.

And MBMBOS, yes, you can attribute it to speechwriters, but the speechwriters take their cue from President Bush, just as any presidential speechwriter takes their cue from whomever they're writing for.

Again, I fear this will denigrate into an attack on Mr. Bush's faith, and, an attack on faith in general. I hope not, but history on here says that will occur.

By the way, Ovelix, I don't know if it was this week or last week's issue of NEWSWEEK, that ran an article with just the title you put in your thread. I may have to get it to read it.


User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1718 times:

Alpha

The link directs to the Newsweek article.

Kostas

[Edited 2003-03-11 14:32:40]

User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1713 times:

Oh, I'm sorry, Ovelix, I saw "MSNBC" there, and thought it was a separate article. I'm getting the kids ready for school, so I haven't had a chance to go to it.  Smile Thanks!


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1700 times:

I forgot, only atheists liberals are allowed to be President.  Yeah sure


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1690 times:

B757300

Again, you see only what you want to see. Read again the first post. It says

The problem is not President’s faith. The problem is that...he uses God to justify the war.

Hope I answered...

Kostas


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1688 times:

Right, B757300, that's why we've NEVER HAD AN ATHIEST LIBERAL AS PRESIDENT.

You're so obsessed with liberals, that it's not even funny. Stop trying to "Be Like Rush". I'm surprised you even think of liberals as human beings, with your attitude.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3397 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1678 times:

Thanks, nice post Ovelix!

He is as dangerous as the Islamitic fundamentalists... both justifie their (criminal) actions by god.


Uh huh Frederic. Stop spewing your garbage for once, okay?


User currently offlineGC From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2003, 356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

"Why is it that born-again Christians are the ones who give you the shits the most?  "

Nice, tolerant post there!  Angry

Well, I'm one, I've even worked in professional ministry, but don't tar us all with the same brush (or Bush)

I respect other people's views (even if they contradict my own) and would fight for their right to hold them, but I don't compromise my beliefs and I don't like being stereotyped. I follow Jesus because he talked a lot of sense. I'm a level headed, reasonably normal and creative guy, we're not all televangelists or Ned Flanders! altho' I do know a couple,  Smile


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1662 times:

No Flight152 because this issue really bothers me.

I'm afraid that we are really not far away from the start of the war. Maybe 2-3 weeks or so? If Bush starts the attack later and it turns out to take longer than expected, his soldiers will not be able to bear the very high temperatures over there. So the attack must start now if Bush wants to attack. Not within 1-2 months.

I'm highly concerned because a VETO is probably coming of France and Russia. And if the US attacks without the clearance of the UN, thanks to Bush we will go back to the time of before 1928 where every nation started a war against another nation if there was a conflict. We were lucky that the more left-inspired France and Great-Britain saw in 1927 that the very high economical pressure on Germany was a situation without a solution, which lead to the Pact of Locarno where they decided to go to a situation of peaceful coëxistence. Since than we all made a lot of work to avoid wars in situations like Iraq-America today. What we see now is the fact that Bush and it's administration want to do the job on their own if there comes no agreement of the UN. I hope you understand the consequences if Bush attacks.

This makes me so angry... do Bush and the supporters of the wars really don't see this?

If Bush attacks, EVERY nation will be able to justifie a war if they want to start one which is not the way to go.

/Frederic


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

another thing Flight152:

The United States was called to bring God’s gift of liberty to every human being in the world”.

Have you read and reread this? Do you actually know how scary this is?

/Frederic


User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1650 times:

"He (Bush) is as dangerous as the Islamitic fundamentalists... both justifie their (criminal) actions by god."

Precisely. And how sickenly revolting it is.

While we're at it, can anyone here possibly explain to me the difference between the propaganda filled/one-sided American news media, and propaganda/one sided Russian TASS news agency in the former Soviet Union? Cuz I sure as hell fail to see the difference.



User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

If Bush truly believed in God, he would find a way to avoid war.


Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineOvelix From Greece, joined Aug 1999, 639 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1633 times:

Canadian

The state propaganda is the same. And the media urge to spread the propaganda even when they don't have to. But, to be honest, there is plenty of space for the other side too. There is now freedom of speech which was not the case in the USSR years and in USA in the '50s.

(Read http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/Iraq.Qaeda.link/index.html for more info on this)

Now that the Commies are gone GWB needs another firm step to stand on and declare the almighty USA rule! Saddam (according to GWB) is the current threat and, with no legitimate argument to go to war, Dubya names God as his major ally and puts him in every speech instead of evidence and data.

There is a difference between "God help us" and "God is in our side because we are the good guys here".

Kostas

[Edited 2003-03-11 16:33:13]

User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1632 times:

While we're at it, can anyone here possibly explain to me the difference between the propaganda filled/one-sided American news media, and propaganda/one sided Russian TASS news agency in the former Soviet Union?

Yeah, TASS occasionally told the truth  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Aviatsiya, the good little Socialist you are, you wold believe such horseshit. TASS never once told the truth, as anyone with any common sense would know it. Again, it shows how little you know of the U.S. Keep it up, though, it is amusing.

User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Keep it up, though, it is amusing.

Not nearly half as amusing as watching you nitpick and picking apart people's posts and treating everything as if it is serious.

Get a g-r-i-p


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Avi, if I was amused by it, as I said I was, I'm not taking it that seriously. And believe me, I don't take much you say very seriously.  Laugh out loud

User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1610 times:

I'm with Scotty on this one. Alpha, take a chill pill. It's not fun to debate with you when your only comebacks are "anti-American!" or "communist!".


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

"Dubya names God as his major ally and puts him in every speech instead of evidence and data."

Exactly.

"There is now freedom of speech which was not the case in the USSR years and in USA in the '50s."

On the surface, this may appear to be the case with both countries, but I have yet to be convinced Moscow and Washington do not have their respective fingers in the Journalistic pie, per se.




25 Post contains images Alpha 1 : We're Nuts, I called him a Socialist, not a Communist, and, as Avi said, there is a difference. ;-D And I'm plenty chilled. I live in the arctic, also
26 Dc10guy : Boeing 757/767 , Your exactly right , G W should ask himself... WWJD ???
27 Hartsfieldboy : It's not his faith that makes him mention God all the time. Bush knows very well how to trick people into following him. I think the main reason for B
28 XFSUgimpLB41X : Incorrect, Hartsfieldboy- If you have a true and deeply felt faith in God, it will be shown in your words and actions.
29 Ovelix : XFSUgimpLB41X Let me put it simple again: A leader may serve his people in the name of God but he shouldn't ask them to follow him in the name of God.
30 Jj : And just one thing we discussed today at our religion time at school: Do you think that you can create the peace by a war? War can only leave hate aft
31 Mx5_boy : Guys, What is thoroughly disturbing is what sort of narrow minded people would all this rubbish spewing out of Bush's mouth appeal to? As the rest of
32 Ilyushin96M : Some EXCELLENT points made in this threat. Good job, guys. I was wondering when someone would see this. I had a discussion about Bush and his supposed
33 Mx5_boy : Il96M, You have hit the proverbial nail right on the head. These right wing fundamentalists beleive every word of it, while the rest of us shake our h
34 Hartsfieldboy : War can only leave hate after it ends...... just food for thought While I still am undecided (seriously) about going to war or not. That statement is
35 MD-90 : War only leaves hate after it ends? Tell that to the Albanians. Tell it to the citizens of East Germany in 1989. Or the Poles. In fact, why don't you
36 Ovelix : War only leaves hate after it ends? Tell that to the Albanians The Albanians formed a paramilitary rebel army (UCK) and demanded secession from Yugosl
37 ADG : I know enough about god to know that Bush will never meet him. ADG
38 Hartsfieldboy : American companies building and american banks financing with loans. Not exactly charity. So? Who said that it had to be charity? It was the fault of
39 Sleekjet : Agree with MD-90. Thank God we have a Christian in the White House. I wonder if White House maintenance crews have cleared out the, uh, mess left by h
40 Jj : BTW, I also know what a war is. I lost uncles in Malvinas FYI. MD 90: I had no idea there was a war in East Germany in 1989... perhaps it was some....
41 Ovelix : Hartsfieldboy It was the fault of the Germans that the war started, they should've repayed to cleanup Go read some history. That's exactly what let Ge
42 777236ER : You'd (those of us from Western Europe and the US and Australia) probably have brown skin right now if it weren't for them and the language of this fo
43 Sabena 690 : That's exactly what let Germany right to WWII. They were forced to repay the cleanup of WWI. Untill 1927-1928 with the Pact of Locarno where GB and US
44 MD-90 : Spare me the historical lesson. You are obviously confused here and you need to go 2500 years back. The Persians invaded Greece. Spartans and Thespian
45 Jj : There is a difference between war and cold blooded murder. Clearly he thinks that Iraq is a threat to the US and to the peace of the world. Otherwise
46 MD-90 : Oh really? We're just going to go in and murder every Iraqi we can find, right? Give me a break. We're going to mass murder Iraqis in cold blood. HAH.
47 LOT767-300ER : WOW, where do I begin? Some of us need help...and fast.
48 PHX-LJU : MD-90 wrote: "And finally, there probably is something that makes him want to act this fast. I don't know what it is, but none of us have access to th
49 Strickerje : Thank God there is a Christian in the White House. Does that mean you wouldn't trust a President who isn't Christian? To me, the President's race, rel
50 Jj : Md 90 I agree, there would be no inspectors now had not Bush pushed for it. Sure. But at this point he's leaving Iraq with no other option than war. B
51 Schoenorama : To MD90: "If it wasn't for Bush's hard line stance there would be NO inspectors in Iraq right now." In fact, if Bush Sr, back in April, 1991, would n
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