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Germany Hoping For Return Of Strong American Bond  
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/12/international/europe/12BERL.html


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

I think the rest of Europe feels the same way.

Staffan


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1351 times:

I tried to say that in several threads. I'll feel much more comfortable once the Iraq issue is over and we can come back to better relations. Our countries have stood together for more than 50 years and our relationship has survived other issues like the Pershing-missiles in the early 80s.

User currently offlineJanne From Sweden, joined Sep 2001, 379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1345 times:

I don't really understand what this thread is all about but...
The Lockheed Starfighter was sold to the then West Germany in great
numbers. Afterwards it has become known that this was because of
substantial bribes from Lockheed. The Starfighter was never a good
airplane. Many german pilots died in that airplane.
I suspect i'm totally out of line here. I suspect the thread is about the
Iraq crisis.
Hmmm. Why don't the US sell Starfighters to Iraq. That's a method
that is known as "self destruct".



User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1328 times:

Funny how Mr. Fischer is mentioned since his party is so violenty anti American (and creating an environment of mistrust)...and with that the so-called alliance has changed. the alliance that is left is purely cultural and economic, since politically both countries have gone off into different directions. And those different directions will create friction which will inhibit political alliance from being anything more than farcicial. Complaints about Bush aside, conciliatory statements from Schroeder, Fischer and their parliament sound hollow.

[Edited 2003-03-13 00:38:19]

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1318 times:

"We're a democracy, and because we have America to thank for this, my sympathy and solidarity with that country is unshakable," he has said.

It is profoundly regrettable that the same kind of class in this comment by someone with seriously negative issues on the American position cannot be found in my own Capital amongst the collection of hilljacks and neocons puking out their Limbaugh-style statesmanship.

I can say only, this too shall pass. A President this reckless will stumble on more than a few issues between now and Election Day 2004, and, as one of of the few positives to come from this daily disaster known as the Bush Administration, those allied against the right wing are at long last getting pissed off enough to take off the gloves and take a few swings at them.

I'm quite sure in January 2005 a President Kerry or President Dean will return the equilibrium back to where it belongs.... within weeks of sending Bush,Cheney,Rove & Company back to the ranch for good.




User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

HM;


"...Capital amongst the collection of hilljacks and neocons puking out their Limbaugh-style statesmanship...."

As much as Bush is a failure in international circles, you miss the point on two things. Clinton was a failure because he was a doormat who exerted almost no foreign policy except to blow up an aspirin factory and because he never spoke back or tried to take the reigns on anything he was the darling of the newly empowered European Union. Secondly, all this blather about US politics does not explain nor excuse the seething anti-American rhetoric espeoused by the Greens, Shroeder or Fischer (or even Chiraq or Chretien for that matter)--who would have also shown their disdain of Al Bore as well; since these German officials are of their frame of the "down with the US" mind, no matter who would be our president was. The fact that the current German government would try to "reach out" after the rhetoric is viewed as untrustworthy and hollow. It is one thing to disagree with us and that is fine. It is also fine to bitterly disagree, but the lack of statesmanship and decorum on Europe as well as the US is apalling. Secondly, no matter how much Bush is disdained, there is no place for sniping since it will accomplish nothing--and it was Europe, specifically France who fired the first "salvo's" with the Germans "tagging along for the ride" and the ridiculous and tactless "old Europe-ish" commentary is a reply to that sort of blather on the part of the Europeans. Now that the German government fears a backlash of sorts from the US, reconciliation (?) is being attempted. That comes across as disingenous and really appears to be "I'll smile in your face while I stab you in the back". Unfortunately, politically at least the German governmanet playing both sides against the middle will blow up on them and leave a bad taste for quite a while...


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

Sorry man. Gotta shoot back a big fat oooooh-kay? That doormat Bill Clinton designed and executed policy that your boy Hopalong is now using as a 'how to' manual these days......I seem to recall a particularly nasty thug called Slobodan who was off-ing way more Muslims than Saddam Hussein presently, a bad man with a worse wife who had his balls cropped by that 'doormat'. And the Balkan 'nation-building' so scoffed at then by the talk radio righties who run things now is precisely what they've signed us up for for, ohhhhh, the next decade, give or take ten years.

And check your timeline. The current European zietgeist agaist war was a mere simmer before Rumsfeld and the GOP House peanut gallery parked a leaking tanker truck on top of the smolder. All this UN nonsense may have actually meant something if Darth Bush & his Stormtroopers had bothered with the world body from the beginning, instead of F-bombing them until November, when some Bush crony had the bright idea they could play off UN weaknesses and toss a grenade in the Security Council, ridding themselves at long last of the threat of black helicopters mapping the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and UN troops executing the cashier at the gun counter of the local Wal Mart.

You used the words "untrustworthy and hollow" to describe the German leadership. You may very well be right. I don't even need to tell you you picked two fantastic words in my world to describe ours. It's not about patriotism or loyalty or whatever. The junior college diplomacy being practiced by your President and his team is losing us allies and assets....and I fear in the end it's going to cost American lives.


User currently offlineThumper From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1272 times:

The hard feelings between France and Germany are just the tip of the iceberg. The French consul in Miami says he is received more and more hate and threatening mail ever day.Germanys leadership ran on a policy of anti-Americanism and won. This feeling has been building for a long time. The Iraq crises just brought it to a head. I am completely against war in Iraq but if the U.S. is going to do it,than do it. Lets get it over with.The U.N. is a dead and useless horse. France and Germany are not our Ally and should be treated as such.At one time we needed Germany,not anymore. France we never needed and I don't think anybody ever did! Its time to go our own way with our true friends and dump France and Germany. Hopefully Bush and company will also be gone soon.

User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1257 times:

Thumper: No and no again!
German government ran on anti-war and, that much is true, on anti-Bush.
Even if you keep ranting and raving this BS about anti-USA over and over again, it doesn't get closer to reality.
Ok, post over, I don't want to repeat myself to much to the same people over end over again!



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineAndreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

And btw: maybe you should read the whole article in NYTimes.
So who are your friends???? Just tell me, I'd love to hear that.

UK...ok, certainly, though this may change a little bit if your government keeps on kicking at everyone who does not bow completely and licks ass!

The countries who signed that stupid letter of intent?????? Well be my guest, as I said read the article again: What are they delivering except some verbal ass-kissing??? Nothing!! What does Germany deliver EXCEPT ass-kissing?? A lot, quite a lot, read it, I don't want to repeat it all over again.

And as for that statement of Mr. Kornblum, the last serious ambassador in Germany, that you have to stick to friends when they need you:
Yes, and we got the message loud and clear when those two towers collapsed and reaction in Germany was as harsh and shocked as it was in any US city. (What some of you don't understand...it didn't matter that these towers once stood in NY, it would be no difference if it had happened in Berlin, Paris or London...our view of the world was changed forever, too.).

So the problem is terrorism, and talking about war against terrorism, we stand by your side like hardly any other country in this world! But we firmly believe that this war against Iraq is the wrong way to go and it will bring even more terrorist acts, and a I believe a friend should tell another when he believes that the other is heading into a completely wrong direction!!! And each time GWB opens his mouth the direction gets wronger!!!

But I guess the US propaganda is much stronger than any messages from Germany, you won't believe us anymore (we hear that most US citizens by now believe that the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqis...unbelievable!!) and I can just hope our next governments do get the situation back under control again.

btw: OBL did much more damage to the West than just killing 3,000 people and two towers, and I hate to see, that his victory is still ongoing!



I know it's only VfB but I like it!
User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 33
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

>>>Funny how Mr. Fischer is mentioned since his party is so violenty anti American (and creating an environment of mistrust)...

>>>Germanys leadership ran on a policy of anti-Americanism and won.

Gee, two experts on German policy here.

RE the first comment: you´re referring to the 80s. That was 20 years ago. The Greens have noticed that, you didn´t.

And the second comment: Andreas summed it up pretty well, it was an anti-war stance, not anti-American. The three other factors which ensured the incumbent´s re-election:
- the flooding which shifted attention from the economy;
- the opposition´s inability to pick a suitable candidate for the Chancellor´s office;
- the liberal party´s inaction against their anti-semite co-leader.

That last point proved that it´s impossible to win elections in Germany by stirring anti-semite sentiments; you don´t really believe that in such an environment anti-Americanism could possibly yield better results, do you?

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 1218 times:

if the us goes back to treating the uk like a 2nd class country and focusing on germany and france again then its got another thing coming.


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1189 times:

HM;

"The current European zietgeist agaist war was a mere simmer before Rumsfeld and the GOP House peanut gallery parked a leaking tanker truck on top of the smolder"

Quite frankly, I disagree. Fischer has been radicalised since the 70's as have the Greens and has been anti-US for a loooong time, even before the Pershing powered anti-Regan political movements of the 80's. Shroeder capitalized on this as well by fawning and currying favor to the Greens to win (an almost American political strategy).

As far as Milosovic, it was partially a NATO action, with the US action at their behest. The ethnic cleansing was well along before Clinton (and Bush 1) before him) and the UN (which never approved of Clinton's insurgencies into these matters--so Clinton acted with hegemony as well, perhaps  Yeah sure) or Nato acted. As far as "nation building" the blather of the radio righties, it is interesting how the extreme left are so ready to accuse if we would have walked away and not propsed a post war plan; so like the German parliament, the "lefties" are also playing two sides against the middle and engaging in their own form or "righteous hypocrisy".

As far as bushy and rumy and "grenade tossing"--the UN has been impotent for a long time, a hot bed of Anti-US, racist and double standard laden cesspool, lorded over by another anti-US syncophant, Kofi Anon. (example- the lack of UN action to stop Mugabe from criminally nationalizing white owned farms, even using "ethnic cleansing" to do it...). And with this impotence, the UN would have had a crisis "anyway", since there are many other world affiars other than Iraq which would bring the US and others to logerhaeds.

Even though the present German government is steeped in rhetoric, I really see no healing of any political relationships until they or both the US and Germany have fundamental changes in their leadership. The mistrust will last for a while, but I don't see too many ramifications cuturally or socially between the two of us, because, pacificism aside, the two countries are much more alike than they would admit and have way to many ties other than politics to really really, sully any realtionships. Even though the relationship between Germany and the US has fndamentally changed, here has been too much history between the US and Germany, good and bad that binds us together and we recognize it and apparently they do to; unlike the French. But as far as Fischer and Shroeder, they made their feelings as clear as Mme. Ducros did.

Though Bush and the rhetoric factory are foul and vile at times, at least I have found that they waver less and stick to their policies more than many others, whether it be compared to Germany, France or even the vile, disgusting Pelosi/Daschle/Clinton axis of obstructionism and hypocrisy  Yeah sure.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1151 times:

Go Canada!: if the us goes back to treating the uk like a 2nd class country and focusing on germany and france again then its got another thing coming.

You see, that is an excellent illustration of the different objectives our respective governments have at this moment: Yours appears to fight for the post of favourite lapdog, ours attempts to be a good friend who will even tell you when you´re wrong.

I must say I´ll rather keep ours.  Big thumbs up




747-451: Quite frankly, I disagree. Fischer has been radicalised since the 70's as have the Greens and has been anti-US for a loooong time, even before the Pershing powered anti-Regan political movements of the 80's. Shroeder capitalized on this as well by fawning and currying favor to the Greens to win (an almost American political strategy).

How is that reconcilable with the fact that the Schröder/Fischer government put its existence on the line for a military campaign in a) Kosovo and again for b) Afghanistan after 9-11?

I´ll tell you: It isn´t. And your statement above is so utterly laughable for anybody who has even superficially followed german politics through the past decades that it tells a lot about your complete ignorance about Germany and its current government.

Even in his "wild days" Fischer was far from the lunatic fringe of the time. Within the green party he had always been one of the most explicit exponents of the "realo" wing, which finally triumphed over the more radical elements when the greens joined the coalition with Schröder´s social democrats for the federal government. As foreign minister, he has never used inflammatory language and has never proposed any extremist positions. If anything, he´s an "extreme constructivist", if there is such a thing. Wink/being sarcastic

Your statement could hardly be any farther away from reality... Big grin



747-451: so like the German parliament, the "lefties" are also playing two sides against the middle and engaging in their own form or "righteous hypocrisy".

Can you please explain this gibberish to some extent? I don´t even know what you´re talking about...


747-451: As far as bushy and rumy and "grenade tossing"--the UN has been impotent for a long time, a hot bed of Anti-US, racist and double standard laden cesspool, lorded over by another anti-US syncophant, Kofi Anon.

I´m happy that the internet connection to your parallel universe appears to be relatively stable, right now, so I´ll answer before the wormhole collapses again. Big grin

"The UN" is the assembly of nations of this planet. And the USA have had a pretty strong standing in it as long as it hadn´t yet alienated the rest of the world - notably in the Security Council, where US governments were one of the major blocking forces for very many initiatives, including some you´re decrying here.  Wink/being sarcastic

And Khofi Annan "another anti-US syncophant"? Yeah, and the vegetarian Mahatma Gandhi used to have little babies for breakfast, right?  Insane


747-451: Even though the present German government is steeped in rhetoric, I really see no healing of any political relationships until they or both the US and Germany have fundamental changes in their leadership.

When you´re actually trying to look at the sources (just try this: http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/en/index_html), you may find that it´s a pretty one-sided affair; The seethingly contemptuous rethoric we´ve witnessed from the Washington side has not been mirrored over here (even though it won´t be forgotten). The tone in german foreign politics is very measured, almost clinical. But I´m open for evidence to the contrary. Good luck.  Wink/being sarcastic


747-451: Though Bush and the rhetoric factory are foul and vile at times, at least I have found that they waver less and stick to their policies more than many others, whether it be compared to Germany, France or even the vile, disgusting Pelosi/Daschle/Clinton axis of obstructionism and hypocrisy

You´ll find that the german government has been very, very consistent and stable in its foreign policy. It was Bush´s mistake to believe they could be bullied "back in line", and the outraged shrieks that followed when he discovered his mistake give testimony to his miscalculation.

If there´s anything I´m a little proud of with my country, it´s that it has continued to stand up for what it thinks is right.  Big thumbs up


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1135 times:

So, Klaus, Germany is standing up for what it believes is right, but the UK government is simply acting as America's lapdog because it happens to agree with them. Far be it for any other government than your own to ever act with the same high minded principles?  Insane


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1126 times:

Banco: So, Klaus, Germany is standing up for what it believes is right, but the UK government is simply acting as America's lapdog because it happens to agree with them.

The way Go Canada! presented the case, there can´t be much doubt about it, don´t you think? Big grin


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16866 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1118 times:

France (Chirac) and Germany's position on European Countries that support disarming Iraq , "Shut up".

Wow if France and Germany are right, God let us be Wrong!..

With friends like France and Germany, who needs Iran and Iraq.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1113 times:

STT757: France (Chirac) and Germany's position on European Countries that support disarming Iraq , "Shut up".

France and Germany support disarming Iraq. Chirac´s - inappropriate - comments were aimed at the countries whose governments support the Bush position of invading Iraq.

Sorry for the nit-picking; But a few thousand casualties more or less do matter to some people...  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1109 times:

Klaus,

I know enough about the current German government and thevitriolic statements made during your elections; so the "nazi" comments are quite indicitive of the attitude that prevails. The fact that that kind of rhetoric exists is telling of the attitude towards our government-not the fact that they have a fundamental disagreement on policy, but the anger and the disgust with who our president and leaders are-and that is a complete lack of statesmanship. Kosovo was not a political risk, nor was Afghanistan, nor are either of any financial consequence to Germany. "

"You´ll find that the german government has been very, very consistent and stable in its foreign policy...." yes it has in it's dealing$ with Iraq  Yeah sure...


"If there´s anything I´m a little proud of with my country, it´s that it has continued to stand up for what it thinks is right."

So ami I  Yeah sure




User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1100 times:

747-451: I know enough about the current German government and thevitriolic statements made during your elections; so the "nazi" comments are quite indicitive of the attitude that prevails.

Apparently, you don´t.

The notorious comment by the (therefore) former minister Däubler-Gmelin about diverting attention away from domestic problems through development of foreign crises as "we´ve known since Adolf nazi" were one thing.

Another politician back then compared Bush to a roman emperor.

Then... nothing, until another politician criticized the imperial attitude of the Bush administration a short while ago.

The rest of the discussions was just that - a discussion about the issues, accompanied by occasional mild abuse among the fighting german parties.

I agree, that´s really just as bad as the mega-gallons of filth we´ve had to listen to from the western shore of the Atlantic.

Or can your profound knowledge of the german political scene contribute additional details? Apart from the three incidents above - all instantly rebuffed by higher-ranking politicians - I can´t seem to find any.

So please, contribute with more "vitriolic statements" - you must know hundreds of them in order to even come close to a counter-weight to the US abuse. Come on!


747-451: The fact that that kind of rhetoric exists is telling of the attitude towards our government-not the fact that they have a fundamental disagreement on policy, but the anger and the disgust with who our president and leaders are-and that is a complete lack of statesmanship.

Nobody here really cares "who your leaders are". How they conduct themselves is something that does indeed matter, however!


747-451: Kosovo was not a political risk, nor was Afghanistan, nor are either of any financial consequence to Germany.

Sigh; Ignorance all around. The green party was close to a rebellion when the decision for the first "out of area"-deployments was up for a vote in the Bundestag. Schröder combined this decision with a vote of confidence and thus put his own job and the existence of the coalition on the line. Fischer faced vigorous protests in the green party and was even physically attacked once by one of the remaining green "fundamentalists".

With the Afghanistan campaign, there were again intense discussions and considerable risks involved for the coalition. Again, the final decision was in favour of the use of military force.

Come on, give it up. You´ve got no clue about german politics. Your bluff has failed miserably.


Klaus: If there´s anything I´m a little proud of with my country, it´s that it has continued to stand up for what it thinks is right.

747-451: So ami I

Illegally invading a much smaller and weaker country just out of a diffuse fear of a threat that cannot be substantiated by all the combined might of all your intelligence services?

I´m not sure if that´s something that will still elicit pride when the dust will have settled... At least it´s not something I would be proud of.


User currently offlineThumper From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1093 times:

Lets cut all the crap. If France and Germany want more sanctions let them have it! Lets get the hell out of the U.N. and N.A.T.O. Let Iraq do whatever it wants. When they become a big enough threat the U.S. should stay out of it. Why should Americans risk there lives whenever France and Germany think the time is right. The U.N. sucks,why should America put up 85% of the troops and money. Let the great military power of France and Germany handle it. I myself am tired of listening to Saddams greatest ally and friend Chirac and his B.S. Let Saddam use him. When he gets strong enough Iraq will kick France's butt.

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1076 times:

Yeah, and while you´re at it, disband the police and the courts. Who needs law and order anyway.

Every man for himself! May the biggest bully win!  Nuts


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