Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Russia Tells America To Stick The NMD  
User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 815 times:

I am posting this in response to a few threads lately concerning American president Bush building a NMD.

Now that you have what the Russian's think, do you still think that the NMD is a good idea? i.e. If it does go ahead, America risks alienating it's NATO partners, and 100% guaranteed, sparking a new arms race with Russia, which would probably isolate that country to a huge extent.

America doesn't need to worry about Iran; especially since that country is trying to improve relations with America. North Korea, frankly, does not have the required resources to build these weapons.

The country America really should be worried about is Kiribati; what with their long-range ballistic missiles armed with coconut warheads!

----------
Russia's Military Shoots Down Bush Plan to "Update" ABM Treaty

MOSCOW, Jan 30, 2001 -- (Agence France Presse) Russia's military leadership voiced its opposition Tuesday to a plan mooted by U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney to "update" the 1972 ABM treaty to let Washington build a national missile defense (NMD) system.

"Russia opposes changes to the ABM treaty. Updating the treaty would end up destroying it," news agencies quoted General Valery Manilov, deputy armed forces chief, saying of the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, a cornerstone of arms control for three decades.

The new U.S. administration of President George W. Bush has come out in favor of the controversial NMD system, whose development was put on hold by outgoing president Bill Clinton last September.

Cheney hinted Sunday that the United States could breach the treaty signed with the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War in order to develop a unilateral missile shield against attack by so-called rogue states.

Washington had signed the 1972 treaty with "a country that no longer exists, and must be modified to allow for the (NMD) program," Cheney told Fox News.

"The modification Americans speak of amounts to emasculating the essence of the ABM treaty, and the purpose for which it was signed -- preserving a balance between strategic defensive and offensive weapons," Manilov was quoted as saying by Interfax.

He had suggested an alternative to deploying the unilateral NMD shield, which was the "creation of a non-strategic theater missile defense system with the participation of all interested states."

Russian President Vladimir Putin warned the United States last Friday that NMD deployment would "irreparably damage" global stability.

Efforts in North Korea and Iran to build long-range missiles prompted the United States to go it alone with a nuclear defense system, arguing that it is increasingly liable to attack.

Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov, who underlined last week that the NMD dispute was not "only a Russian-U.S. problem" and adding that Moscow wanted to consult the European Union, held talks here Tuesday with German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping. ((c) 2001 Agence France Presse)

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 722 times:

People seem to forget that under the ABM Treaty, The Soviet Union was allowed to maintain a missile defence system. It was supposed to be restricted to around Moscow, but whether it was or not was debatable. I don't know if it is still operational.

If Russia has the right, why not the U.S.?

Charles


User currently offlineSashA From Russia, joined May 1999, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 709 times:

Isn't it quite obvious that both countries never really halted development and operations of mass-destruction weapons. ABM treaty or whatever may have forced Russia or/and US to cut existing weapons at that time... only to be replaced with NEW, better ones.

I wish the arm race stopped. Although, as long as there';s no real war, who cares what's really hidden in endless Russian forests and America's canyons?



An2/24/28,Yak42,Tu154/134,IL18/62/96,B737/757/767,A310/320/319,F100,BAe146,EMB-145,CRJ,A340-600,B747-400,A-330-300,A-340
User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 695 times:

>to "update" the 1972 ABM treaty

You know what? The AMB treaty is null and void. That country we signed it with- it doesn't exist anymore.

And as far as Russia is concerned, if they don't like that we're going to build it, we say "stick it" to them.

>Russian President Vladimir Putin warned the United States last Friday that NMD deployment would "irreparably damage" global stability.

Putin is a joke. He doesn't really run Russia- the mob runs Russia. He is just a front for the Russian mob. He can't be taken seriously.

>America risks alienating it's NATO partners

Screw NATO. It has outlived its purpose. We need to pull out....


User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 684 times:

Putin a front for the Russian mob? Puhleeze. You obviously are showing a total lack of knowledge here N766AS. Under Putin, the Russian mafia have really had to curtail their activities.

Russia is no more run by the mob than New York is run by the mob....you know the wog Julianie (however you spell his name), is nothing more than a front for Sicilian mafia.

Also, you might like to show me some proof that Putin is a Russian mob front!! You know I don't go much for groundless rhetoric, unless it is backed up with those things that sometimes get in the way of a good story....I think some people call them the facts.

Your comments on NATO are absolutely typical of what come people think of America. Use all country's for your own purpose, and then desert them when it suits you. This is not a friend....it is a scum-sucking house visitor who has overstayed his welcome, after eating you out of house and home. Is this what you want people to think?


User currently offlinePty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 682 times:

We Americans don't give a rats rear what the rest of the world thinks of our military defense policies, especially your Russian friends who you say "tells America to Stick the NMD"? Ha! Tell me, why should I or my fellow Americans care what your Russian friends think about anything? Don't give me your usual "F*** you!" or "Puhleeze" comic routine. Intelligent debate. Ever hear of it or are you now foaming over your keyboard, just itching to slam down on that letter "F" key so as to launch into another one of your tired "F*** you!" tirades?

User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4781 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 677 times:

We Americans don't give a rats rear what the rest of the world thinks of our military defense policies, especially your Russian friends...

Many Americans of sound mind on this board would tend to disagree with you. Unless your country is planning to move its population to another planet, you have to be expected to abide by global agreements. Otherwise, you are sinking to the level of the so called "rogue nations" you are trying to protect against.

I take N766AS's opinion for granted these days...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 675 times:

I will let one of my Russian "friends" answer this question shall I? It is precisely what I was going to reply, and then whilst surfing I came upon on it.

-------------

Who will persuade U.S.A. to give up NMD?
By Viktor Sokolov

The Americans are stronger than anyone in the world. This fact will not be disputed by anybody, not even by Vladimir Putin. However, despite a flagging economy and weakened armed forces he and the rest of the nation represent the only real national force capable of keeping the United States away from an imprudent decision to break the 1972 ABM Treaty and create a national missile defense system. NATO, G8, the UN Security Council and the European Union are perfectly aware of this. The countries concerned overlap those organizations and infiltrate them in seemingly random order as if in a pack of cards but this particular pack is a system also capable of restraining the new U.S administration from a shortsighted move to upset the balance and plunge the world into a new arms race.

The Americans probably believe Russia today does not have the strength to offer adequate resistance. As for world and European organizations, do the Americans think that the dress rehearsal of aggression in Yugoslavia demonstrated that they as well as Russia can be ignored? If that is how the Americans feel, they are misinterpreting recent history because following the bombing of Yugoslavia efforts made by Russia and those who helped it revealed to the world the patent folly of the Balkan war and how dangerous it is to use force in an attempt to resolve disputes. NATO countries and the Americans themselves realized this but could not afford to admit this in public because otherwise they would have completely lost face. Furthermore, it is not all smooth sailing for the Americans in various parts of the world such as Iraq, Iran and the Middle East. And on top of that, the economy is getting worse. This too serves to undercut their authority.

It is in a bid to restore authority in the eyes of the world public that Clinton came up with the idea of modernizing the AMB Treaty and Bush Jr., needless to say, has embraced it. The Americans always show off their strength by blowing a whistle so loudly that the sound reverberates across the world. The idea of a mighty shield protecting the United States from missiles coming from unstable regimes is designed to play the role of whistle. The new U.S. administration says it has the courage to spit on all and sundry without even noticing that in doing so it testifies to its weakness. America is bluffing! It is absolutely obvious that by launching this ballon d'essai Bush Jr. is trying to intimidate his allies and especially Russia and probe their reaction to his insane idea.

Bush knows that reforms have weakened Russia. But he also knows that in a pinch the people of Russia are capable of uniting to give an adequate response.

Bush will soon be ending his probing exercise. After that he is bound to sit down at the negotiating table. As has been said before, Russia, NATO allies and international organizations, all those designated as the system of international security, will help him draw the right conclusions.



User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 674 times:

>Putin a front for the Russian mob? Puhleeze. You obviously are showing a total lack of knowledge here N766AS.

Oh really? Hmmm... because I have done my research on the fairly new Russian president and he has VERY close ties to the Russian mob- he used to be in the top levels of it! He is a front for the mob- they have ultimate control of the nation.

>Also, you might like to show me some proof that Putin is a Russian mob front!!

I will certainly do that.

>Use all country's for your own purpose, and then desert them when it suits you.

So protecting Europe from the now- non-existant Soviet Untion was all for our purpose? Sure- there was absolutely nothing gained by Europe by being protected from the Soviets by the USA. And now we are deserting them? So, what threat is there to them now?

Absolutely ludicrous. NATO serves absolutely no purpose and the US needs to drop out of it. Period.

>Is this what you want people to think?

I am with Pty here- who cares what the rest of the world thinks? We are who we are, and we aren't like the rest of the world! If the rest of the world doesn't like that, they can stick it. The USA isn't in existance to cater to the rest of humanity.


User currently offlinePty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 667 times:

Sorry, bub, but "Might Makes Right." It's always been that way and always will.

User currently offlineAnzff From Australia, joined May 2000, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 667 times:

>You know what? The AMB treaty is null and void. That country we signed it with- >it doesn't exist anymore.

Ummm - true the USSR is no longer a state, but the Russian Federation is the continuation of the USSR's international legal personality. That is why the Russian Federation holds the USSR's permanent seat in the Security Council that used to belong to the USSR. Don't confuse the processes of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia (that produced inter alia today's Yugoslavia which is a new state and seperate legal personality) with the breakup of the former USSR where the consituent FSRs broke away creating new states (and seperate legal personalities) leaving the Russian FSR (which then became the Russian Federation) as the sole continuation of the USSR's personality.
THEREFORE the ABM treaty is not null and void on the basis of non-existence of a party.

>Screw NATO. It has outlived its purpose. We need to pull out....

Given attitudes like yours, a lot of Europeans would probably be quite happy to see you go!

As for Australia, hopefully the next election will give us a government that will not allow our soil to be used by the US to build the NMD.

Bottom line - if the US wants to ignore the rest of the world and its legal obligations it is quite free to do so...but it must also accept that to do so makes it no better than the many other countries who do the same (like North Korea, Iran, Libya, etc) - so don't lecture the rest of the world!


User currently offlineMx5_boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 669 times:

Pty says:

"""We Americans don't give a rats rear what the rest of the world thinks of our military defense policies, especially your Russian friends...."""

Pty, you are hardly representative of Americans in general, rather your represetative of the "type" of Americans no one likes. You and your other ilk should start a little group where you can meet and rant at each other. Wouldn't that be a hoot? (Dang Pty, did ya brianggg that big ole thunkun chain for meye pickurp..)

Scotty,

It's a little disappointing to read your post, I would have thought those shit heads, bush / cheney would have at least kept their mouths shut for a while. If this is a taste of things to come, it looks like the USA government is going to upset the world apple cart completely and uncessarily. True diplomats indeed. I feel sorry for those Americans who I know will cringe and feel ashamed when those two gits hit the international diplomatic trail...

Cheers,

mb



User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 665 times:

Anzff

You make a very interesting point on our land being used.

How many Americans realise that their whole defence system and space program comes down to a facility which is on Australian soil......can you say P-I-N-E G-A-P? And I bet your arse that Pine Gap will be instrumental in any NMD. This is wrong!

Let me guess, when we as Australians kick your Yankee butts out of our country for disregarding our wishes, does this mean that we will then be bombed to smitherines, and Pine Gap declared the 51st state in the name of the "National Security of the United States" (said in an arrogant tone which one is used in pissy Hollywood movies).


User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 659 times:

Oh yeah, I forgot, N766AS, I am waiting with baited breath for this proof of yours that Putin is the godfather of the Russian mafia.

Just hope it comes before I turn blue and black out though.


User currently offlinePty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 663 times:

Well, as a matter of fact we have been meeting as of last Jan. 20th, in Washington, D.C. Anything else?

User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 656 times:

Pty

You may have been meeting since Jan 20th, but do not for one moment think that the people who were on the "winning" side are representative of all Americans. Hell, they do not have a mandate to even wipe their arses after going to the crapper, let alone a mandate to build an NMD.


User currently offlinePty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 656 times:

Well, we agree on one thing: Hollyweird does make what you call "pissy movies."

User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 653 times:

Oh, don't flatter yourself. I never said he was the "godfather" of the Russian mafia.

I actually had a paragraph quoted from a news source, copied and all ready to go, but I stupidly copied something over it. Give me a bit of time to find it again...


User currently offlineBombstar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 652 times:

Seriously I dont see the point of a NMD, it just wouldn't work, technically and pollitically. There is currently no threat to the United States, or any other nation for that matter. And starting the NMD project would just create more tension in the world, and possibily start another cold war from the nuclear arms race. Nuclear weapons are very dangerous and kill a lot of people as well as destroying our planet. I personally think that arrogant americans such as Pty and N766AS just dont see the reality of the mass destrusion of a nuclear bomb. The world should stop using them. America has to learn that it can not keep intervening in international situations. So far the Bush administration is pissing me off, first cutting fund to abortion then starting the NMD. Bush probably doesn't even know why america needs one! What the hell is North Korea going to do to them?
America should be more worried about bombs that are smuggled inside the border as opposed to launched by missiles (ever seen the movie The Peacemaker?). Nukes can be made small enough to be carried by a terrorist, and it can be more easily sliped through america's borders then launched by missles.


User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 645 times:

N766AS

Try looking at

http://www.themoscowtimes.ru
http://eng.strana.ru
http://www.russiajournal.com
http://www.russiatoday.com
http://www.pravda.ru
http://www.interfax.ru
http://www.lenta.ru
http://www.subscribe.ru
http://allnews.ru
http://www.gazeta.ru
http://www.itar-tass.com
http://www.rbcnews.ru
http://www.skrin.ru

I am sure you will be able to find what you are looking for on one of these Russian news sites.


User currently offlinePty From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 647 times:

You pathetic hypocrite! "Nuclear weapons are very dangerous and kill a lot of people" and in the same breath "So far the Bush administration is pissing me off, first cutting fund to abortion." Go play in the street, you sick mutt.

User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 642 times:

Brissie, is that a try at sarcasm? Or are you serious? Because I doubt a mob-controlled nation's own media would report about it.

User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 637 times:

Sarcasm? I don't think so.

You obviously have no idea how the Russian people live these days, what laws they live under, and just how free the press is.

Even Pravda, the old Soviet mouthpiece, is often scathing of Putin when it is warranted.

So please, go and look at the sites for yourself.

I can even provide you with sites which will stream Moscow TV direct to your computer, for free, and you will be able to see how free they are.

To have some proof of this, just cast your mind back a couple of months, and remember the horrendous disaster which was they Kursk.

The media absolutely blasted the government and the military.....something that was unheard of in Soviet times. The TV stations were showing pictures of family members who lost loved ones on the sub, taking their anger out on military chiefs. Again something which in the old Soviet Union would have caused you to be deported to a gulag in Siberia for a term of "treatment".

So don't underestimate the will and pride of the Russian people when it comes to their new found freedoms. Remember, America is not the only country in the world which has a free media.

Take a look for yourself, like I said!


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4781 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 641 times:

I am forced to scold our wacky rad-right couple:

N766AS...we're still waiting. Stop taking pot shots at Brissie till you come up with the dirt.

Pty: Abortion has nothing to do with the debate. Bombstar mentioned that he was also opposed to G. Bush's reduction in funding. He never said he gains pleasure from abortions. I don't think there are any pro-choicers that do.


User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (13 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 632 times:

>You obviously have no idea how the Russian people live these days, what laws they live under, and just how free the press is.

I was under the impression that "free press" wasn't exactly promoted there... I will certainly check the publications...

>Stop taking pot shots at Brissie

POT SHOTS?! I was merely trying to figure out if he was being sarcastic or not! Seriously...


I still stand by the fact (and I have found sources, but none you would take seriously) that Putin is a puppet for the Russian mob.


25 Brissie_lions : You can stand by the fact all you like. You have made a comment, yet you have as yet still not shown us the "facts". I think it is a case of you comme
26 N766AS : Well, don't hold your breath... JAG is on, so you'll have to wait until tomorrow for my reply. Good evening from the greatest nation on God's green Ea
27 Post contains images CPDC10-30 : N766AS, did you know that David James Elliot (Harm) is not only Canadian but is alma mater of my school (Ryerson University)! I aggree with you on tha
28 Brissie_lions : W-h-a-t-e-v-e-r I would have thought you would have these facts at the ready (like you have said you have on, now, 2, yes, 2, occasions). But I think
29 DG_pilot : Russia is just being a little cranky because they know they cannot 'afford' to try to keep up with the U.S. as far as NMD goes. So if everyone else di
30 Pty : I would like to think that the laws on rape there in Australia include the death penalty. Who cares what nationality they are? Guilty? Hang 'em.
31 DG_pilot : Adding on to my previous post, I think Reagan knew that the Soviets could not afford to keep up with us, and the way to break them was to make them sp
32 IndianGuy : Brissie Darling: u of all people should know better than to enter into arguments with N7666As and their ilk! I learnt my lesson, when will you learn p
33 Crjmech : I dunno. I'm really starting to think that an NMD system would be unfeasible for several reasons. The costs of said system are considerable and may no
34 SashA : N766AS: Putin a puppet of Russian mob? You might also would like to know that your city mayor maybe under Russian mob too... Never underestimate the R
35 FDXmech : How's Russia doing nowadays? Is the economy and the general outlook improving in your opinion? Speaking of Russia, my niece who's graduating college
36 Post contains images SashA : yeah, the economy now is somewhat better than for many years before. However, still fragile. Give it 2-5 years, maybe it'll become more stable... Oh,
37 Post contains images Brissie_lions : Back to topic (but still waiting to hear from N766AS). Russia can afford to combat any NMD which America implements. From www.strana.ru The Russian ex
38 P&M : Would NMD give the people in the US protection ? Not prooven. Would NMD cost the people in the US Billions of tax money ? Yes. Would the people in the
39 Woody : A NMD system is bogus. The only reason that Bush wants it built is because the corporations who gave him huge sums of money for his campaign want it b
40 L-188 : I dunno....There was a reason why the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction was known as MAD. The abm treaty does allow a missle system to be built
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Maryland Court Tells Gays To Get The Votes posted Wed Sep 19 2007 01:54:35 by RJdxer
Court Tells Babs Where To Stick Her Lawsuit posted Thu Dec 4 2003 22:34:54 by L-188
Why Does America Want To Rule The World? posted Thu Oct 3 2002 21:35:14 by Caravelle
So Who's Going To Win The French Open? posted Wed Jun 3 2009 06:54:57 by Timlin88
Court Seeks Witness To Stick Head In Toilet posted Mon Apr 13 2009 10:28:21 by PROSA
Israel - Obama To Stop The Money? posted Sun Feb 15 2009 06:50:35 by NAV20
Obama "Unlikely" To Widen The Afghan War posted Sat Jan 31 2009 17:37:53 by StasisLAX
For Those That Blame Like To Blame The Media. posted Sat Jan 17 2009 11:51:35 by Mirrodie
Who Is Going To Get The New BB Storm? posted Wed Nov 19 2008 16:21:30 by ADXMatt
Iceland To Introduce The Euro As Legal Tender? posted Mon Nov 3 2008 08:09:19 by Slz396