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This War Is Taking An Ugly Turn  
User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1889 times:


It has not even been a week that the war on Iraq started and there are already a lot of casualties on the coalition side. There has been 3 helicopter crashes, one Tornado down, several US POWs, one nutcase who throw a grenade to his colleages and several others US soldier killed in action. I can't recall a time in my (short) life where a war has taken so many friendly lives ... I know war is not childplay but this one has a tragic taste to it.

May those who died fighting for other people freedom RIP.
Radarbeam

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

War is ugly - I think Allied commanders expected reasonable losses but expected them mostly in the ground invasion of Baghdad, where I think even hundreds of Allied troops could be killed if Iraqi forces don't capitulate as hoped. Obviously I hope that isn't the case, but the way things are going you never know.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineHomer71 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2254 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

Someone correct me is this is inaccurate, this is what I remember

Gulf War (1991) - About 100-150 allied troops killed, about 30-35 from "friendly fire"



"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

I don't think the war is taking an ugly turn, more living up to its nature. It's not sugar-coated, it's not pleasant, it screws up people, messes with their minds, propert and lives are destroyed. All we can hope for is the the war will somehow contribute to the greater good, that after its over the world can be a better place. Such is the irony of the human experience.

User currently offlineRadarbeam From Canada, joined Mar 2002, 1310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Homer,

I got these numbers from USA today...


The 1991 Gulf War's toll
U.S. troops killed: 79 in action, 54 in non-combat

U.S. troops wounded: 213

U.S. airmen listed as POWs: 9

U.S. troops missing in action: 37

Allied troops killed: 44 in combat

Allied air missions flown: 106,000+

U.S. planes lost in combat: 27

Allied planes lost: 9

Iraqi aircraft destroyed: 141

Iraqi planes that fled to Iran: 137

Iraqi tanks destroyed: 3,080

Estimated Iraqi casualties: More than 85,000 killed and wounded

Iraqi ships sunk, damaged: 73

Iraqi POWs held by allies: 80,000

U.S. troops in Persian Gulf: 537,000+

Estimated cost of Gulf War to allies: $45 billion




User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

I would like to add that in terms of military objectives, the war is proceeding as planned. But there are no illusions that the most difficult phase will be the invasion of Baghdad. It will have to be done district by district - we can't expect to simply waltz in there and grab Saddam


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineEGGD From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 12443 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Weren't there millions of people killed in WWII???

Anyway... I think its quite sad with all the technology and highly trained soldiers that we have so many 'friendly fire' incidents. I was watching the lunchtime news last week and they interviewed a couple of US soldiers. Highly trained they were not, I got the general feeling of 'hi, we're here to kill Iraqi's!!' from alot of them, they didn't have much to say but that... One soldier, 18 years old, when asked if he was scared 'no not really, I trust this gun'. What does that tell you about him???


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

To be fair though EGGD, regular troops aren't noted for their amazing intelligence and comprehension of modern technological achievements - it is more the case of 'press this button and you will be alright'. Rather, they are well trained and drilled to react in combat situations with their training, to demonstrate courage and commitment. Very few combatants probably understand exactly how the technology works.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineHomer71 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2254 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Thanks for the info, Radarbeam

This conflict doesn't seem to be as severe as the first Gulf War (by stats, anyways), although any armed conflict is messy

And there's still Baghdad to deal with...



"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13254 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

What is getting ugly are reports that Republican Guard and other 'loyal' units are donning civilian clothes to fight, and even using civilians as human shields, also faking surrender and taking shots at US/UK personnel when the opportunity arises.


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

Lets see now. Iraqi troops have been pretending to surrender so they could get it close and ambush U.S. troops. Reminds me of WWII in the Pacific when the Japanese regularly used this tactic. The end result was that Japanese troops that were trying to surrender were usually shot before they could get close enough to U.S. troops and inflict casualties.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineCmk10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 513 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1704 times:

What did you expect? A romp in the blasted Garden of Eden? We are winning by infinent amounts, and that is what really counts.
DC-10's Forever



"Traveling light is the only way to fly" - Eric Clapton
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13254 posts, RR: 77
Reply 12, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1658 times:

Reminds me of a notorious incident in the Falklands, when some Argentine officers waved the white flag then shot some British Paratroopers.
The result? Probably of a lot of Argentines really surrendering got killed after this.
(I shudder to think if in that war, they had light modern cameras with night vision as they do now, imagine the reaction of many to images of close in fighting with guns, grenades and bayonets).


User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

The subesequent fake surrender effect, i.e. no longer believed genuine, is possibly what was intended by whatever group did it.
Now Iraqi regulars will `have' to fight rather than surrender because they will think/know that they will be shot if they surrender.



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineDaedaeg From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 659 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

War aint pretty people!!! My heart goes out to all those fallen soldiers and POWs.


Everyday you're alive is a good day.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

War isn't pretty.

Our poor boys. I know they're professional soldiers and that they are paid to fight wars. I know that Iraqi casualties are probably heavy, but at times like this I can be parochial in my concern. This is what American TV is not showing - our poor dead slaughtered soldiers. They deserved better - from our politicians who should have - and could have - avoided this war, and who should have had the patience to seek other alternatives to this carnage.

http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-23-23.htm


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1570 times:
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You ain't seen nothing yet, wait till the coalition reaches Baghdad, it's here that the bloodshed will take place. *scary*




In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineTWAL1011 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1550 times:

Let me express my sincere regret and sadness over the loss of those two British airmen. Seeing that (apparent) footage brought back terrible memories from 2/1. I am extremely grateful to have Britian as an ally. I'm so sorry this happened.

A truly saddened TWAL1011.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16908 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1539 times:

People got too used to Kosovo and Afghanistan style "clean" victories, the first Gulf War was more severe.

However this one (unfortunately) has the potential to get ugly.

The first Gulf War was started with a week or two of massive aerial bombardment, this war was started with a quick strike then ground warfare.

I think after the POW incidents and Sunday's heavy fighting the gloves are going to come off the air campaign, meaning massive B-52 carpet bombing outside Baghdad in the North and to the South of Baghdad. Followed by low level strikes mostly by RAF Tornados , USAF A-10s, F-15Es.

Also more dramatic B-2 2,000 lb JDAM strikes on Baghdad, nightly.

UK/US Marine Aircraft like the Harriers and F-18s are going to be flying close air support missions in the South, plowing the road to Baghdad.

US/UK and Australian forces have hit heavy resistance but are still plowing foward, they are less than 100 miles from Baghdad and will probably be at Bagdad's doorstep by Tuesday.

That's where the US Army's Mechanized divisions are heading , it's been the US and UK Marines so far in the heavy battles in the South. The US Army's heavy mechanized divisions have been racing through the Western Desert , they are by passing the Southern Iraqi units and are heading straight for Baghdad.

That's where they will engage the Iraqi Republican Guard, the US and Royal Marines should get there by middle of next week to Flank the Republican Guard and squeeze them into the US Army's M1-A1s path.

Also the 101st Airborne Division still is in Kuwait, they are definitely going to be in the fight soon. Most likely Air dropped in Northern Iraqi via one of those Western Iraqi Airfields the allies have already seized.

Hopefully as the Allies approach Baghdad those talks with the Republican Guard units about surrendering will happen before the battle begins.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1537 times:

Cmk10, actually I've heard it said that the Garden of Eden probably was somewhere in Iraq, between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. It sort of could be a romp in the Garden.

However, you're definately right about this being no cakewalk.


User currently online727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6637 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1533 times:

Ummm...so it's only ugly if ALLIED troops are killed???? Was Hiroshima ugly?
Dude....it was UGLY from the first shot!!



I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1510 times:

Yep. This has been ugly from the start. But you have to consider the "faces" of the war.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/europe/images/18-blair-p18035-10-pm-web-398h.jpg


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1502 times:

One of the reasons for the unexpectedly high coalition casualties is the effort expended to save civilians. It is nice to see, though, that the military leadership is calling the shots, not the White House. This assures that adjustments to strategy can be implemented quickly and effectively.

Airplay, your comment is disgusting.

727Lover, we are talking about Iraq, year 2003.

Pete


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1495 times:

One of the reasons for the unexpectedly high coalition casualties is the effort expended to save civilians.

Delta, your comments are ridiculous. You're saying that the incidence of friendly fire and coalition casualties increases with the amount of care the aggressors take in protecting the innocent. Where is the logic in that? This sort of thing is a sign of what most people know already. The US military is not the superior force when it comes to ground attack. They've proven this in several military conflicts.

They go in with incredible arrogance and high expections that the enemy will just roll over and die.

They excel in the high tech high altitude stuff but need overwhelming tactical advantage to win a ground war. The four recent friendly fire Canadian casualties in Afghanistan really exposed a great lack of discipline that increases the frequency of these incidents.

So..be disgusted if you want but give your head a shake...





User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1486 times:

The US military is not the superior force when it comes to ground attack. They've proven this in several military conflicts.

SAY WHAT?? You're joking, right, Airplay. What were YOU watching during the First Gulf War, when it too 100 HOURS of ground action to end the conflict? What do you call a ground force, that in less than 3 days in theater, is a days march from the main objective? Inferior?

And you have the nerve to post on these fourms about the U.S. military? ROTFLMAO. Oh, you're killing me Airplay!  Laugh out loud


25 David B. : I think he means a street fight a la Somalia.
26 Artsyman : Last night when I was watching the ground battle live in CNN (surreal I know), they spent about 3 hours with a tank shooting a building until the Iraq
27 Airplay : Alpha1, Yes. They had a great ground fight...AFTER several weeks of bombing to "soften up" the enemy. Don't you remember all the reluctance and incert
28 Indianguy : May those who died fighting for other people freedom RIP. RIP, allright? but leave out the "fighting for other peoples freedom" bit. We all know what
29 JetService : Indianguy, there's no need to respond to you as your words are almost verbatim as the Iraqi Communications Minister. That speaks for itself.
30 Post contains images TWAL1011 : Like the doctor said when Roy was born, "This thing could get ugly".
31 Indianguy : there's no need to respond to you as your words are almost verbatim as the Iraqi Communications Minister. That speaks for itself. Right now, The IRaq
32 N79969 : Roy, You are a sick person. Get help.
33 NormalSpeed : En, Don't worry about Roy. Facts are a strange thing to him. He's not to be payed attention to. 'Speed
34 Artsyman : These are mercenaries who have gone in to loot and plunder without international approval ******************************** and these are facts ? looti
35 Indianguy : have you been watching AL Jazzeera again ? Nope. But even that would be better than the trash shown on CNN? What was that bit about tariq Aziz being
36 Amir : Hi Artsyman: you mentioned Al Jazeera. I do presume that you speak arabic and you can give your personal opinion about this station? Rgds Amir
37 Indianguy : @Amir:No he cant. He' just another of those KKK brand ultra-rightwing extremists who frequent this board. Hurling abuse at Europeans, Indians, Arabs a
38 L-188 : And what are you Roy? An ignorant prick from the third world, who choses to blame his problems and those of his country on others, who on this site ha
39 GDB : While I agree that many far right types have posted nonsense, Indianguy is no better. In fact his logic is the same as that Bhose character in the 194
40 ADG : One of the reasons for the unexpectedly high coalition casualties is the effort expended to save civilians. It is nice to see, though, that the milita
41 Indianguy : I will ignore L-188's hysterical behaviour. Terrorism? Depends on how you define it. Are American "Special Operations Groups" setting off bomb explosi
42 L-188 : Iraqi SOG's You aren't thinking about those terrorists that hold in so high esteem Roy.
43 Indianguy : American SOG's setting off bombs in downtown Baghdad are "soldiers" fighting for freedom. Iraqi SOG's setting off bombs in Umm let says New York or Lo
44 L-188 : Oh ADG. What he means by that is that there are reports that Iraqi Special Republican guard are wearing civilian garb to move into firing positions to
45 L-188 : Roy, Do you consider a terrorist working for Saddam a Iraqi SOG???
46 ADG : L-188, What is reported in the media and what occurs in the middle east are 2 distincly different things. There is no "no fire" order and your militar
47 Atenara : War is War! although it seems as though its not working right for the Americans, but The U.S. is the only remaining superpower in the world in terms
48 Amir : Dear Atenara, sorry i can't resist it: your words sound exactly like Saddam's words trying to cheer-up his people. Regards Amir
49 L-188 : ADG.... There isn't a general "until fired upon" order. Don't twist what I said. But they are prohibited from firing on civilians. So you have these R
50 Atenara : Yo Amir, What, all i'm saying is that the U.S. is gonna kick some @ss! cuz there all pumped up!
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