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Iraqis Fighting Without Honor  
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

CNN has been airing interviews with frustrated marines who are saying that Iraqis are hiding behind and shooting from civilians, and faking surrender in order to be able to move to new positions to shoot from while protected by the white flag, or to ambush coalition soldiers who come up to accept the surrender.

This is just as low as terrorism, and seeing past behavior, not surprising. A total lack of honor in combat, not to mention a war crime. What's wrong with the Arab world in that these tactics are so readily adopted?

Charles

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8093 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

Hey. Come on. Americans are attacking them in their own country, which has never threatened America. Who is REALLY fighting without honour?


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3564 times:

What do they have to loose? Nothing! This is why I'm still a bit worried when the US will do their 'invasion' in Baghdad.

Who knows what he planns...

For the rest, they see this war as a warcrime. Why would they play it behaved and with honor?

Put you in their position, and try to understand their reactions... (before the usual bashing starts, this does not mean I agree with it).

/Frederic


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

I see, so you are saying that violating the Geneva and Hague Conventions, and all rules of warfare is defendable if you are fighting on your own soil?

Charles


User currently offlineIlyushin96M From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2609 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3549 times:

This is ridiculous, Charles. You actually expect the Iraqi troops to line up like good little soldiers and be shot? They were known for dirty tactics during the Gulf War...to expect them to be any different 12 years later is completely naive.

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

It´s win at any cost, on the Iraqi side, a Iraqi expat told Swedish media that the Baath party
officals seem nervous, using name-calling they never did during the Iran war.


User currently offlineJetService From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4798 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3544 times:

Cedarjet, Sabena, I don't care who was invading my country and why, I wouldn't hide behind one of my own civilians!!!!! I might do other things, but not that!


"Shaddap you!"
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

Conduct of combatants in warfare is completely separate from the political and other rationale behind the war. These conventions do not say that their provisions are only valid if the war meets certain conditions. They apply to all armed conflicts between sovereign nations.

Charles

[Edited 2003-03-24 19:15:53]

User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3532 times:

What's wrong with the Arab world in that these tactics are so readily adopted?

Come on, Charles. Its a two way street here. I mean I agree with you wholeheartedly, but even US Generals after World War II spoke with disgust on the coming technology of warfare...push button bombs, killing an enemy you can't see, no battlefield glory.

That said, the rules of combatants and non coms and the lines blurred among the locals is what destryoed much of our fighting capabilities in VietNam. This morning Tommy Franks spoke of "10 guys with RPGs on top of a building. Do you reduce the building to rubble, knowing it will cause civillian deaths?"

Well. Yeah. The word is 'war'. It's the ugliest of ugly human concepts. Once you've begun it, you either fight one enemy or two. The Iraqis alone. Or the Iraquis and your own morality.

I'd rather fight one.



User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3523 times:

While they might benefit from it at the moment, they won't do it in the long run. They might not be so nicely met if they surrender a second time. Hiding behind civilians is also not very honorable.
To those who think this is ok, would you consider using your mother, sister or children as shields during a war? I certainly wouldn't.

Staffan


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Sorry guys, I had misread Charles his message (I hadn't understood that they use humans as shield).

It's indeed very cruel, and can not be defended.

But is this commonplace? It's of course again very nice of CNN to film this one time, and spread it out on their tv like it happens all the time.

CNN has never been a thrustful source!


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

hiding behind civilains is wrong but its a great trcik because civilains are then killed and the iraqis can praded it and the anti war brigarde will go loopy.


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3488 times:

CNN has never been a thrustful source!

I agree that reporter's claims are often inaccurate. But I heard these reports from the mouths of U.S. Army soldiers and Marines being interviewed on the front lines. They were clearly frustrated - their orders and own sense of honor prevents them from shouting "through" civilians or shooting people under a white flag, and keep getting the feeling that they had been had afterwards.

Charles


User currently offlineErj190 From Portugal, joined Dec 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3472 times:


Hey, American media is very reliable.

SCUDS where fired by Iraq.
(three days later turn out to be a lie)

CHEMICAL WEAPONS factory found
(a total hoax from a US TV station nobody is talking about that anymore because everybody knows it was a lie)

AMERICAN POW's executed
(known to be untrue without one single even tiny evidence)

AMERICANS took over UMM QASR
(known to be not true at least three times - Although this one is not the TV station's fault)

The list can go on.

But these are the "news" on the american media. The latest editions of American newspapers and TV news, are based on the so-called news that are actually lies.

At the same time we have seen ridiculous images of a US helicopter shot down by Iraqi farmers. Who do the Iraqis want to convince? Maybe they want to convince the farmers.

How can an Helicopter, which is armored and protected be shot down, and show no traces of fire. At least the American propaganda tries to be convincing (although clearly failing) the Iraqis don't even try to be convincing.


shameful


Being part of the "attackers", I must praise again the BBC and even SKY news for their excellent coverage. We can't believe in the Iraqi TV, we must have doubts about Al Jazeera TV and Dubai TV, we must have doubts about CNN, NBC CBS and the likes. The only credible news comes from the BBC and from some European TV stations that can actually show us something unbiased.

In a war, the first victim is truth.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

SCUDS where fired by Iraq. (three days later turn out to be a lie)
***************************
At this point it hasnt been proven untrue

CHEMICAL WEAPONS factory found (a total hoax from a US TV station nobody is talking about that anymore because everybody knows it was a lie)
****************************************
This is still on more or less every worldwide western news broadcast, and is still under investigation

AMERICAN POW's executed (known to be untrue without one single even tiny evidence)
*******************************
Actually they do seem to have been executed

AMERICANS took over UMM QASR (known to be not true at least three times - Although this one is not the TV station's fault)
**********************************
As I am not there, this one I cant comment on, the impression I get is that they thought it was captured, but pockets of resistance emerged,

on the other hand....

Iraq says it shot down loads of planes Iraq says Israel shooting missiles into Iraq Iraq says that they are winning Iraq says they have no chemicals , no weapons etc
For all you chemical naysayers, in 1998, the weapons inspectors knew that Saddam had these weapons, there is no documented proof at all, not one shred to suggest that they were destroyed, but, for arguments sake, let's assume that he just didnt keep records, WHY did he destroy them ? totally unprovoked, no weapons inspectors in the country and no reason at all to destroy them, why did he do it ?

Jeremy


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

The old days of warfare where you sang "God Save the Queen" at sunrise after eating your army ration porridge and then charged at the opponent from the other side of a grassy knoll when the bugle sounded are over, me thinks.



User currently offlineGc From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2003, 356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Someone on Sky News made the point that if the coalition had operated using WW2 tactics of flattening the towns with heavy Armour and bursting thru to Baghdad, it would all be pretty much over. The fact is that the coalition are using militarily weak methods for the sole purpose of minimising civilian lives, the trade off is to costs more time and risks more military casualties on the coalition side.

The plain fact is the Iraqi military aren't quite as concerned with this and are unrestrained. Regardless of the politics, we need to acknowledge that our troops are operating with the utmost integrity and care, even though it puts them in more danger.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3427 times:

That's absolutely right, Gc. The coalition forces are fighting literally with both hands tied behind their back for political reasons (which I agree with, by the way).

Nonetheless, they are now within 50 miles of Baghdad! I just pray that Saddam doesn't try to make it into a Stalingrad building-to-building grind.

Charles


User currently offlineADG From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

the concept of "honour" differs from culture to culture. I think Charles is saying that Iraq isn't fighting in the term of "honour" as he understands it.

However, having a father who was in Vietnam I could name at least another military that does not always "fight with honour" and I do not single that country out specificially. War is hell.

and I join those above who have no doubt that there is footage of American soldiers who appear to have been executed.





ADG


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8093 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3404 times:

"[Geneva Convention does] not say that their provisions are only valid if the war meets certain conditions. They apply to all armed conflicts between sovereign nations."

So will someone please explain Camp X-ray and the treatment of it's guests?



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3384 times:

Look, if we carpet bombed Iraq our credibility would be nil and we would win the battle but lose the war.

In the end it boils down to our superior weapons against their guerilla tactics. And we knew about this going into this war.


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3376 times:

Ridiculous !


Do you think the Iraqis will shoot and then stand on the road shouting: "Come on it's your turn, shoot on me".
Wake up Charles, that's called a war, that's not a video game or some duel. A WAR !!! The soldiers are trying to stay alive, that means to kill other soldiers before they get killed.
If you don't want to face that, you don't go to war.


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3375 times:

About the "good old times" of war (good times and war in one sentence don't fit):

During WW1, on a Christmas eve, British soldiers played football against German soldiers. After the match, they went back to their trenches and continued to fight against each others.



User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3365 times:

I think Charles is fully awake and alert. His outrage is justified.

If they are using civilians as shields, that is outside of the rules. And yes, even in war as chaotic as it is, you still don't use an infant or woman as a shield to save yourself. Think about it.

That they are dressing civilians is not surprising but still exposes the very people the Iraqi military is actually supposed to protect to danger. These 'soldiers' are not protecting their country or their countrymen but their own lives. You really cannot say they are defending their country, can you?

It's not like these guys are dressing like civilians and then slithering away to escape detection.


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3324 times:

I propose the US and UK refrain from using their airforces and stop aerial bombardments to make this a 'more equal' war.

Common' Charles, the US has broken numerous international treaties and conventions (including the Geneva Convention) over the past decades and now all of a sudden you want the Iraqi military, whose material is at least 12 years old and who have been attacked by the US/UK over these past 12 years continuously, you want them to defend themselves from the illegal invasion of their country in a fair way. It's ridiculous.



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
25 ADG : The Australian Broadcasting Commission just broadcast the following statement: "The American Government is in Shock and Awe that the Iraqis are using
26 L-188 : And what tactics are those ADG??? I don't recall our guys dressing as civilians. I don't recall our guys using civilians as human shields. Is it sweep
27 Jaysit : I'm not sure how Americans could have dressed as Vietnamese civilians. Especially back in the Vietnam era. Unless the Aussies were referring to using
28 Airplay : I think many are missing the very important point that Iraq hasn't declared war on anyone. Threrefore, the Americans are being treated just like any u
29 Alpha 1 : Let them fight with dishonor, as far as I'm concerned. It will only disgrace their leader, their nation, their race and their faith. And, in the end,
30 L-188 : I think that next week after my vacation I will bring up where the generals screwed up, after the situation has stablized.
31 Airplay : Saddam's Iraq will lose, and some of those repsonsible for things like the execution of those soldiers, will face punishment. Ask the families of thos
32 Alpha 1 : Airplay, this isn't about how the war started; it's about the brutal execution of American soldiers. Obviously that doesn't bother you one iota. It bo
33 Airplay : Alpha1, I see that you're starting to have trouble controlling your rage. I understand why. This whole thing must be confusing and frustrating for you
34 Thumper : Schoenorama: Common' Charles, the US has broken numerous international treaties and conventions (including the Geneva Convention) over the past decade
35 Alpha 1 : Airplay, no rage here, really. Despite the fact I did not want this war to start, I'm behind our troops, and am confident they'll be victorious. I jus
36 Jaysit : Aren't you guys confusing the issues here? Its one thing to engage in guerilla warfare in the defense of your country (however reprehensible its regim
37 ADG : I don't recall our guys dressing as civilians. I notice your age bracket puts you younger than me and as I was born when my father was in Vietnam I th
38 ADG : By the way, is there really *honour* in killing others? ADG
39 Artsyman : I have been thinking for the last day or so, that if the Iraqi forces continue to mix with the general civilian population in the major cities, then i
40 Indianguy : Its guerilla warfare charles. Plain and Simple. The Iraqi's are fighting a force that has overwhelming technical superiority. The only way for them to
41 Cfalk : Cedarjet, So will someone please explain Camp X-ray and the treatment of it's guests? As people have been saying for over a year, they are not POWs. T
42 L-188 : For once Roy says something I agree with. It is guerilla warfare. Plain and Simple. Now I need to go outside and check on the alignment of the planets
43 Artsyman : Wake up Charles, that's called a war, that's not a video game or some duel. A WAR !!! The soldiers are trying to stay alive, that means to kill other
44 Cfalk : Indianguy, Why do you call the coalition soldiers "mercenaries"? Please explain. mer·ce·nar·ies 1. One who serves or works merely for monetary gain
45 Indianguy : Would you be so understanding and accepting if the US troops decide the same thing and start carpet bombing Basra and Bagdad. If the only way to win
46 Cfalk : I doubt if carpet bombing is going to work though. It didnt work in Vietnam, and it wont work here! Correction: The carpet bombing in Vietnam was main
47 Alpha 1 : I notice your age bracket puts you younger than me and as I was born when my father was in Vietnam I think I can suggest quite categorically that you
48 Krushny : Hey, American media is very reliable. SCUDS where fired by Iraq. (three days later turn out to be a lie) CHEMICAL WEAPONS factory found (a total hoax
49 Krushny : SCUDS where fired by Iraq. (three days later turn out to be a lie) *************************** At this point it hasnt been proven untrue Great. Guilt
50 Schoenorama : Thumper: "Charles you are absolutely right if you look at the ones disagreeing with you they are all American haters whither they are from Spain,Canad
51 Alpha 1 : American friends, if I were you I would be very worried about the quality of your democracy, a free press which reports accurately what's going on is
52 Amir : Hi, sorry but i have to say this: to all who are debating in details about the Iraqis and the Geneva conventions and the way they resist the US & UK f
53 Cfalk : That is a very cheap excuse! If the US is so convinced these are all Al Qaida terrorists and the Geneva Convention is not applicable on them, why did
54 Schoenorama : Alpha1: "Well for someone with a supposed knowledge of the U.S., and someone with family here, you don't know that the U.S. people are not "ruled", we
55 Artsyman : SCUDS where fired by Iraq. (three days later turn out to be a lie) *************************** At this point it hasnt been proven untrue Great. Guilty
56 ADG : Well, ADG, I AM old enough to remember, and I do not recall EVER seeing our forces fighting in civilian duds, or pretending to surrender, or holding h
57 Indianguy : No explaination needed from him, Charles. It's very calculated, just like everything he types on here. He'd be a very good PR guy for a Dictator like
58 Glenn : What is honour anyway. WW2 the V2s were a cowardly weapon. Today the cruise Missiles are considered OK. in Vietnam, Defoliants such as Agent Orange we
59 Post contains images Cfalk : WW2 the V2s were a cowardly weapon. Today the cruise Missiles are considered OK. Cruise missiles are very precise. Accuracy is measured in feet. V-2s
60 Post contains images Glenn : That's why they hit Iran 3 times with Cruise Missiles Doesn't matter how much they new about the effects, it was still a chemical weapon of mass Tree
61 Alpha 1 : Indianguy, I am no longer going to answer anything you say. I cannot do it quite the way I wanted, because of decisions not in my control, but I will
62 Artsyman : That's why they hit Iran 3 times with Cruise Missiles ********************************* Irans official statement on this is that it was actually Iraqi
63 Glenn : Regardless of that fact (which I hadn't heard) Cruis missiles do miss their intended targets. The Americans even admit that. Iran don't wanna upset Am
64 Go Canada! : "The Iraqi people are fighting for their independence and pride." and they have pride under saddams regime do they? how can u have pride when u see yo
65 Post contains images ADG : and they have pride under saddams regime do they? Well you have pride under Bush's regime ... but seriously, you can't say whether they do or not .. s
66 Yyz717 : Well you have pride under Bush's regime ... but seriously, you can't say whether they do or not .. seems to me that some feel that they do and others
67 Indianguy : Neil:The Iraqi's can elect ANYONE right? Anyone except Saddam or Tariq or...! The Iraqi's can elect anyone from a list of people handed over by the Am
68 Wirraway : ADG As a Vietnam vet who did 2 tours there with the Australian Army, I can assure you at no time did I see or HEAR of American troops operating in civ
69 MD-90 : Thanks for your contribution, Wirraway. It's good to hear from someone who was actually there. I personally can't imagine any actual US soldier dressi
70 Indianguy : @Wirraway: You would only hear of it if you had been told. Looking at The way the American Propaganda machine has been working now in this conflict it
71 N79969 : Roy, So you are saying that US troops are wearing civilian garb in Iraq and using human shields? I guess you would know from your extensive time on-sc
72 N79969 : ADG, My Lai was not covered up contrary to your ridiculous innuendo. Your second hand knowledge is no better than Alpha 1 or anyone elses. Although it
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