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2 Missiles Hit Baghdad Market  
User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1475 times:

At least 14 civilians died, with 30 more injured, when 2 missiles hit a busy parade of shops in Baghdad.

Reuters correspondents say they're at least 15 dead, local people say they are up to 45 casualties.

A US official said on a press conference recently that he can not answer any questions on this issue. He btw also said, when asked about the bombing of Iraqi TV stations, that they only attack "military targets", whatever this means.

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1463 times:

About the TV station, that is probably a defendable act, as the Iraqi leadership has been using it to encourage forces around the country - some of which may have no other means of getting news from Baghdad. That may well have military value.

About the market, we still have to find out whether it was a U.S. bomb. I expect it probably was - If the Iraqis had done it themselves for propaganda purposes, I would have expected them to make sure that there were at least 100 or 200 casualties, in order to maximize impact.

Charles


User currently offlineDavid B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1449 times:

This is getting out of hand. First a british aircraft was shot down via "friendly" fire. Second, a missile destroyed a oil refinary in Iran. Third, a missile missed it's target. Fourth, a allied aircraft destroyed a missile defense launcher. Now this?

Mistakes happen but 5 in a week?



Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1441 times:

David B, again, stop being so damn naive. War is hell. In war, civilians die; in war, wrong targets are hit, despite the sophistication of weapons. Out of a few thousand sorties, and a few hundered missile launches, and the vast movement of troops, you say things get "out of hand" for a handfull of errors. Again, you have no concept of what war is.

I haven't heard you say Iraq is getting out of hand by executing POW's, or faking surrenders. This is war, not some football match.

I feel bad for the civilians who died, but in a known combat zone-the city of Iraq, you take your chances being out and about.


User currently offlineVoodoo From Niue, joined Mar 2001, 2072 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1440 times:

Public opinion in the UK, pro-war, peaked over the weekend.
It is now headed downhill again.
The clock has started to tick for Blair.......



` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
User currently offlineErj190 From Portugal, joined Dec 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1427 times:


Yahoooooooo !

15 IRAQI's killed... Yehhhhh

..Sorry... LIBERATED.

Sorry Mr. Rumsfeld. I was taken by the enthusiasm over another great success of the crusade against the dirty Muslims that want to keep all that American oil for themselves...

oops, I mean enthusiasm over the military operations to liberate Iraq from the "regime"


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Very well said Alpha 1.

Erj1900. Thanks for showing that niave-ness in full force.....

[Edited 2003-03-26 15:44:27]

User currently offlineDavid B. From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3148 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

David B, again, stop being so damn naive. War is hell. In war, civilians die; in war, wrong targets are hit, despite the sophistication of weapons. Out of a few thousand sorties, and a few hundered missile launches, and the vast movement of troops, you say things get "out of hand" for a handfull of errors. Again, you have no concept of what war is.



Wrong Alpha1. I do know what war is. My question remains. Innocent people were killed. Now if you wish to put that thought behind you, I don't know what to say. This is not the first time this happend is it?


Well said Erj190.
KROC. Thanks for showing that niave-ness in full force as usual.

[Edited 2003-03-26 15:45:27]


Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

David B. You don't have a clue how war works. If this was 20 years ago, the civilians that would have been killed would be well above the very few the number stands at now. There is no such thing as a war with no civilian casualties......

User currently offlineAmir From Syria, joined Dec 1999, 1254 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 1394 times:

Meanwhile it is confirmed that several dozens of Iraqies were killed in that attack. (even German Stations reported this by now)

So you say this is iraqi propaganda and they make sure that at least 100 to 200 casualties are there.

::::::::

So maybe they wait to see where the US missile is going to hit and then they direct people there to ensure enough deaths!

And bombing a TV station is also a defendable action!

This is so sick! iam impressed by the mentality of some of the A.net crew!

Regards
Amir


User currently offlineJessman From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1506 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1392 times:

In WWII, the last big war, We were happy if the bombers hit the right city. 60 years later we're not happy if the bomb misses by an inch.
Too bad. War happens.


User currently offlineAmir From Syria, joined Dec 1999, 1254 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1372 times:

Jesseman:

what a qualified argument!
so war happens! why not in the US if you are so keen to have one!

Regards
amir


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1369 times:

This is war and its tragic.
Did we really expect this to be a war in which Iraqi children cheered as missiles neatly missed them yet shaved the mustaches off Saddam's republican guardsmen?
No.
As much as I was and am against this war, I hope we finish it off decisively and not turn it into another Vietnam. For us and for them.


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1355 times:

So you say this is iraqi propaganda and they make sure that at least 100 to 200 casualties are there.

Amir, I did not say that this was an Iraqi propaganda ploy. In fact I specifically said that it was unlikely - the death toll is too low.

The Iraqi leadership has no qualms at sacrificing Iraqi lives if that's what it takes to stay in power. That's a proven fact. The only reason we are having this war is because of this illegitimate dictatorship refusing to step down.

So maybe they wait to see where the US missile is going to hit and then they direct people there to ensure enough deaths!

No need for that. They have plenty of explosives of their own.

And bombing a TV station is also a defendable action!

All it shows is Saddam propaganda and instructions. What use is it to anyone? It's not as if they blew up the Disney Channel.

As others have said, War is Hell. The best way to limit the damage is to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the enemy to continue. That means hurting him.

Charles


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

Erj190, again, you show a terrible naiveness for the whole conflict.

David B. Yeah, innocent people got killed. Show me a war where that hasn't happened, and then you can bitch about it.

And bombing a TV station is also a defendable action!

Amir, yes, bombing the source of Iraqi propoganda IS a defendable action. You try to cripple your enemies ability to communicate, whether on the battlefield or in any other way. Again, this is well within the realm of acceptable targets. As far as I'm concerned, Al Jazeera is a legitimate target, but that won't get hit for political reasons.

Again, the mindless voices who will not even dare condemn the execution of American soldiers, or the public questioning of American POW's on TV get all upset over anything that happens to the other side. And you say we're sick? Take a hike.  Smile


User currently offlineAmir From Syria, joined Dec 1999, 1254 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1339 times:

Charles,
If the TV station is of no use as you say then why bombing it at first place.
and after all leave it to the Iraqis, it's non of the business of the US to bomb this station. Let me bet: the new one will be made in USA.

Once again we have this arguments that Shit happens in war which is true but the next time a bunch of invading soldiers are killed in Iraq (weather assassinated or killed on the battlefield) other rules apply.
What iam trying to say is: when Iraqis are killed then you Pro_war guys start saying that shit happens. When a few Invaders are killed you start arguing about the smallest details like the Geneva convention.

Regards
Amir



User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1335 times:

In the meantime, the news of the first Humanitarian Aide, and the soldiers that are talking with Civilians and distributing much needed water and such. Americans are evil. Obviously we don't care about the civilians.....  Yeah sure

User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

"As far as I'm concerned, Al Jazeera is a legitimate target, but that won't get hit for political reasons."

But we are not at war with Qatar.
And if thats a viable target, then CNN and FoxNews are ready targets too. Aaron Brown is harldy offering a neutral viewpoint.
I don't understand Arabic, but I have read a few translated English transcripts of Al Jazeera news casts and frankly they're really quite interesting.
There is another view point besides the prattle dished out on CNN. We may not like everything that plays out on Al Jazeera, but if anything, Al Jazeera is the one beacon of free speech in a region bereft of it.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Amir, ANY propoganda arm of an enemy is fair game, especially one as "fair and balanced" as Saddam's media. Why is it you are so naive on what goes on in a war? Civilians have ALWAYS died in warfare. Enemy communications have ALWAYS been a legitimate target in warfare. Why this child-like naivete on what war is about.

And it is quite amazing you don't even not how few civilian casualties there have been in this conflict-even Saddam's "fair and balanced" media hasn't been able to lie about it. So what's your problem? You wail when one civilian dies, yet you basically condone the execution of American soldiers. And you want me to take your views seriously?


User currently offlineErj190 From Portugal, joined Dec 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1328 times:


Don't worry Jaysit

From the tactical point of view, there is no possibility of this war turning into a Vietnam.

Not even a new Stalingrad (which, we must not forget was a 300.000 citizens city, very tiny if compared with Baghdad).

As I see it it looks more and more like the fall of Berlin in April 1945.

Yet, in April 1945, The most important German General Gottard Henrici (not to confuse with Heirich Himmler) refused to send the 56th armored Panzer division (the last large German Panzer formation) to fight within Berlin. Also, the 9th Army of General Busse went west to join with the German 12th army of General Wenck, and both armies surrendered to the US forces.

Only the SS forces, the Hitler youth, and the Volksturm (kind of militia) were left to fight the Russians.


I don't know, if the Iraqi leaders will do the same thing (meaning avoid entering Baghdad with heavy forces)

Tanks are not quite helpful in cities, but Baghdad is actually quite similar to Berlin. Very large streets, crossed by a river, with some channels. The similarities are very large. (Baghdad being actually larger than Berlin).

When Baghdad is taken (And there is no doubt about that) it will be the largest city in history to be taken in combat.





User currently offlineDelboy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1322 times:


Some civilians got killed, it's all part of the 'acceptable risk' that's looked at when planning operations. It's exactly the same when an aircraft is designed, they take into account how many would die in a crash scenario and work that out over a number of flight hours/cycles...then call it acceptable risk.

Sadly, some civilians will perish in this conflict and yes, I've no doubt there will be other friendly fire incidents but the main thing is we get rid of that despot, Saddam.


User currently offlineKrushny From Spain, joined Dec 2000, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1317 times:

I believe the Russians took 100,000 dead+injured in the Berlin battle. The Allied will sure not get so many casualties but it's going to be quite nasty if the RG and Saddam decide to fight to the last man.

User currently offlineErj190 From Portugal, joined Dec 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1310 times:


Alpha 1

I would say that again, you are showing your unfortunate and poor capacity to judge.

I would advise you to start some reading, learn some foreign languages, tune on some non Nazi-American-Right Wing-Republican media, try to understand both sides.

Then, maybe, MAYBE, you are capable of addressing me, with some acceptable arguments based on something else than plain hatred, and senseless US-Patriotic crap.

Unlike what you may think, as result of the thoughts inside the small nut that you may have inside your head, and that you claim to be you brain, I AM NOT ANTI-AMERICAN.

But I am Anti Mr. Bush/Hitler/Rumsfeld/Goebbels and the likes.

It is a gang of dangerous people, which I believe in the end, even if they do not face the justice of man, will face a higher court, where there will be no appeal.

I believe that in the end this people will be in a place that will make the Iraqi desert look like Alaska.



User currently offlineAmir From Syria, joined Dec 1999, 1254 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1309 times:

Alpha_1

....al Jazeera is a legitimate target!
you and your president are very similar: do you speak Arabic dear Alpha_1? how can you damn it, and other fellow clever pro war Americans judge about a news station that you don't understand? Let me congratulate you of being the smartest forum member since you can value things in the dark.

If i was mad i would start debating about hitting CNN in Atlanta? by the way Al Jazera was a target for internet attacks during the last two days. It is back to normal operation now.

So Foxnews and CNN are only telling the truth! my goodness, all TV stations are sort of manipulating these days but and after spending hours watching/reading following stations:
- CNN
- Fox
- BBC
- Al Jazeera
- Al Hayat (in London)
- Al Ahram (in Cairo)
- Teshreen (Syria)
- Al Shark Al Awsat
- N-TV (Germany)
- N24.de (Germany)
- Focus.de (Germany)
- Jerusalem Post

I am at least in a better position to conclude for myself and i can tell you that the least biased of al the above is Al Jazeera.

Sometimes I doubt that many forum members here are indicating their true age in their profiles.

Regards
Amir




User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 1303 times:

Amir, don't you understand a little sarcasm?

I for one would not mind CNN going down (I'd let the people out first, except for Ted Turner if he were still there).  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Long live the BBC!

Charles


25 Alpha 1 : Erj, I don't watch Fox more than a few minutes a day. But if you're assertion that U.S. media is "Nazi", then there's no point in discussing anything
26 Post contains images Amir : So you don't give up? even that you don't understand what they say you stamped them. Or is it that you take for granted everything your masters tells
27 Erj190 : Alpha 1 ====== Again, lacking arguments of any sort your last resource is to distort other people's arguments and posts I have said that I consider t
28 Jaysit : "When they've become Saddam's personal tool to prat out American POW's, and show executed American soldiers." Come on, Alpha. Sure Al Jazeera has its
29 Alpha 1 : Amir, I don't need to speak Arabic to understand that everytime OBL has something to say about killing Americans, he turns to Al Jazeera. Unbiased? Fo
30 Erj190 : If I may say. We must not forget something. Al Jazeera, as other TV stations in Iraq, is subject to censorship of the Iraqis. Whenever the BBC broadc
31 Jaysit : "Al Jazeera, as other TV stations in Iraq, is subject to censorship of the Iraqis." Doesn't Al Jazeera only broadcast from Doha? They surely do not ha
32 Amir : Though i have to go now a short reply: once again you show your lack of knowledge about this part of the world. What do you think OBL will go to a non
33 EA CO AS : Alpha 1, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I also think you should stop arguing with these half-wits on here. They won't give up the beliefs they so de
34 Jaysit : "They're wastes of skin, essentially. Best used as a doorstop or a paperweight." Alpha proposes viable arguments. You do nothing of the sort. Al Jazee
35 Erj190 : Al Jazeera is not broadcasting live from Basra. The record their reports, then they are delivered to Iraq officials so that they can be liberated. Ir
36 B757300 : Once someone degrades a conversation by using "KKK", "Nazi", "Fascist", etc then it is best to just ignore them. It is impossible to say anything to t
37 Airplay : Alpha1, American POWs get paraded in front of the media, and I say "so what..what did you expect in a war". You attack me for being so callous. Iraqi
38 KLAX : British soldiers distributing aid today were fired upon by an Iraqi sniper near Basra. -Clovis
39 Artsyman : Second, a missile destroyed a oil refinary in Iran. ************************************** According to all recent broadcasts out of Iran, and officia
40 Jaysit : "It is impossible to say anything to them because their minds are so closed up nothing can get inside." Yep, you should know. Need a missile to crack
41 Gc : BBC and Sky News are reporting that the Pentagon are saying it was a US missile which was aimed at an Iraqi missile silo which was placed only 300 fee
42 Go Canada! : "My question remains. Innocent people were killed. Now if you wish to put that thought behind you, I don't know what to say. " excuse me, david but wh
43 Erj190 : Well, Gc. Were you expecting the Iraqi army to behave according to the US military regulations? Why should the US military regulations be respected? W
44 Amir : Dear Go Canada, so you say that it's the fault of the people to go shopping in war.... and maybe it's the regimes propaganda to send them to their dea
45 Go Canada! : amir, you do not know me yet you have indulged in another attack on me. i am questioning why people went out when an air raid is on, i dont believe th
46 Cfalk : The U.S. says that it still investigating the blast, but so far has not identified any missile of theirs which failed to reach its target today and th
47 Jessman : Jesseman: what a qualified argument! so war happens! why not in the US if you are so keen to have one! Regards It did. Don't you remember 11SEP01? Wit
48 Galaxy5 : Ive got an Idea why dont we take the Advice of others on here and wait and see what the actual information is concerning this incident, right ADG. Let
49 Go Canada! : adg is bound to say galaxy that your making it up as you go along, taking her words out of context and that she never alluded to that. she will say th
50 Erj190 : "... One analyst speculates that the blast may have been caused by an Iraqi anti-aircraft missile which came back down onto the market..." It is one p
51 Post contains links Galaxy5 : The Iraqi's have more than just the SA-7 as a matter of fact they have the SA-2 which has a substancial warhead payload and could do such damage as re
52 Travelin man : Here's an interesting question to think about: How many innocent civilians have been saved from torture and murder in the days since the war has start
53 B757300 : It could have also been an AA shell. The Iraqis have some fairly large AA guns around Baghdad including, I believe, 85mm and 100mm. A 100mm shell will
54 Erj190 : Galaxy 5 I considered that possibility. But I believe that the SA-2 that the Iraqi forces had, have been converted into ballistic missiles. They have
55 B757300 : ERJ, do you know how big 100mm is? It is not some large thing that needs to be moved by a battleship or giant rail car. If you're talking about naval
56 NoUFO : The bombing of a television station to counter propaganda and the disinformation campaign of Baghdad is unacceptable as the station is still a civilia
57 Cfalk : NoUFO, How about the Al Rasheed hotel, one of the main hotels for foreigners in Baghdad? There is a command and control center in the basement. Funny
58 NoUFO : Cfalk To justify such an attack Coalition forces would have to show that the hotel was being used for military purposes and that the attack properly b
59 Gc : Sky News just said that the Iranian News Agency have reported that Saddam's Presidential guard have forcibly stopped Iraqi civilians from evacuating B
60 Zauberfloete : I think it is unlikely that the reports from Iran are true. That the market missile was an iraqi one and on purpose to create outrage is a bit wide st
61 Erj190 : The AA fire we have seen in Baghdad is not consistent with the rate of fire of 100mm guns. 100mm guns are far too old, and in order for then to hit,
62 Gc : "I think it is unlikely that the reports from Iran are true." Why? I don't think that Iran would make public that it wasn't the fault of the coalition
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