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Shroeder Feckless Flip Flop  
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

PM Shroeder addressed the German assembly announcing the Saddam hussien must be removed from power. Imagine that...a change of opiinion. However, he did not say how to do it. Sure, now that SH is about to be removed, aftert the work is being undertaken without German assistance...

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

747-451, this is because he wants to get a part of Iraq (not litterally), because now there is a congress on Iraqi future in Belgium. I doubt he changed his opinion, but realpolitik and actual opinion of politician can differ. Only dictators do whatever they like, democratically elected representatives must try to make it better for country.

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2736 times:

Chris, would you mind to provide a source?


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2726 times:

Considering how a large number of American troops in Iraq are usually based in Germany, implications of German cowardise or even (God forbid) being like the French would be a bit harsh.

Still, it's the first time in a while people have WANTED German to go to war.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Well, it is interesting how all of a sudden he wants SH out, without dirtying his hands. Looks real bad. Secondly, there is also a group of Iraqi expatrites here, in the US, that will be installed by the coalition to act as a temporary government (60 Minutes II, CBSTV, 04/02/2003). France and Germany should not get any preference in Iraq, since they took no risk and supported SH.

User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

747-451: LINK, please! And in the first place, he's our chancellor, not a prime minister.

A note aside: Who was that man in that picture, shaking Saddam's hand? I think he looked similar to Donald Rumsfeld, so what about "flip flop"?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

So you're saying the war is about about preferences in post-war Iraq now, not about liberating the Iraqi people?

User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Chris, would you mind to provide a source?

CNN, CNBC


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2680 times:

A note aside: Who was that man in that picture, shaking Saddam's hand? I think he looked similar to Donald Rumsfeld, so what about "flip flop"?

Hmmm...the pciture was from before Iraq became a real problem that was fed and nurtured by Germany and France. (Osirac, Totla Fina Elf, Dassault etc...)


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

So you're saying the war is about about preferences in post-war Iraq now, not about liberating the Iraqi people?

No but since the coalition did the job, those who aren't part of it shoud have no preference. Talking in circles again 777? yawn...  Insane especially since the UK is the other major factor in this affair...







User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2678 times:

Opinions change all the time. A few months ago, this war was to be launched to prevent Saddam from attacking America and the west with WMD. Most wanted to get him off power, but all of a sudden there was such a hurry to get rid of him that these countries didn't get the time to agree on how to do it.
Now, nobody is mentioning WMD, just a few missiles, and how terribly the Iraqis have been treated (much thanks to the west), and bitching about who is going to get the best deals on oil and rebuilding the country once Saddam is gone.

See, it goes both ways.


User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

"Hmmm...the pciture was from before Iraq became a real problem that was fed and nurtured by Germany and France. (Osirac, Totla Fina Elf, Dassault etc...)"

When did Iraq become a real problem? Was it before or after Saddam was gassing Kurds in the 80's while nothing was done by the west, other than feeding him with weapons to use on Iran?



User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

No but since the coalition did the job, those who aren't part of it shoud have no preference

So it's a coincidental, but fortunate side effect, that there are numerous business opportunities for US and UK firms?


User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

"Hmmm...the pciture was from before Iraq became a real problem that was fed and nurtured by Germany and France. (Osirac, Totla Fina Elf, Dassault etc...)"

Ah, now I realise. We made/make all the mistakes, and you did/do all the good things "to the Iraqi people". I won't bug you anymore with my stupid liberal preference for looking at both sides of the medal.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

Staffan:

"When did Iraq become a real problem? Was it before or after Saddam was gassing Kurds in the 80's while nothing was done by the west, other than feeding him with weapons to use on Iran?"

Yes, that also incluides inactivity by the UN (including Sweden for that matter) and also after the great enrichment of Iraq by European concerns...
 Insane

"So it's a coincidental, but fortunate side effect, that there are numerous business opportunities for US and UK firms?"

Is that a problem  Insane ? And that goes for all "coalition" concerns, since France and Germany have already preferentially mined sufficent profit out of Iraq during SH's period...



User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

I'm not blaming anyone, just stating that the blame isn't one single nations and that this urge "to help" isn't always from the heart, rather from own interests.

I read somewhere that there were indeed several UN proposals to interfere with Iraq in the 80's but they were all vetoed, same as today.
So, following some peoples way of thinking, I guess certain nations were supporting terrorism then, although it was not international.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

"rather from own interests"

Every country has interests and motives. As far as UN resolutions, there have been several, 678,687 and 1441 come to mind that were not enforced.

"I guess certain nations were supporting terrorism then, although it was not international."

Yes it was international and to varying degrees and intentional (to protect those so called "interests" like France and to a degree Germany)

"I'm not blaming anyone"

apparenty you are...and justly so, since Saddam is a whole lot of people's problem, the US, Germany France, Belgium and a slew of others.


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 17, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2629 times:

He simply said that now the war has started, and he now wishes for a fast coalition victory. Believe it or not, we don't like Saddam either, we just thought that a war now was the wrong solution.



[Edited 2003-04-03 20:54:28]

User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

"Believe or not, we don't like Saddam either, we just thought that a war now was the wrong solution."

Racko,
Unfortnately, to some open minded people, that means you support terrorism...

Staffan


User currently offlineClipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

It seems interesting that Herr Schroeder and Herr Fischer are both now saying the same thing. Why? Why now? Why all of a sudden is this being said and reported on? Why? Why?

Is it perhaps that they see that the end is near and the want to be aligned more towards the United States and the coalition? Sounds to me like the ultimate spin.

They say that in the world, timing is everything.

I guess it is.




"You Can't Beat The Experience"
User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

747-451,

Why all the blame on France and Germany? It takes two to agree to something, and when none of them want to compromise, it's boths fault.

Staffan


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

Clipperhawaii, find me one statement from anytime where either Schröder or Fischer said that they want Saddam to stay in power. Just one!

User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2614 times:

There are actually three factors on which the countrie's foreign politics depends. Those are:
1.Opinion of the people (in the country)
2.Opinion of leader(s) (of the country)
3.Strategic importance and opinions of other countries
In a democratic country the first one ussually matters more than second, while under monarchy or dictatorship second has more influence than the first (although some democratically elected leaders later starts doing what he wants and some dictators actually cares about people or just does what they wants because they fears revolution). The third factor matters under all governments. Democratic government won't do everything what people wants if because of such decition stability would suffer (this is especially true in third world countries, where "simple" people ussually has very simple opinion of the world and only the educated, who ussually are politicians, knows what the world truly is; that means India won't nuke Pakistan even if people would want that and France won't declare war on USA even if people would want this), while dictatorship also won't do everything what dictator wants (certain dictators could want to conquer the world, but they won't declare wars on every country for this reason). Main reason why I posted this was the following: there is no such factor as "honour", etc. Although if people would want some war "for honour", or leaders would want it, such thing might happen, but as third factor of three mentioned before is the most important (without it any of the first two could do nothing), there could be actually no such thing as "decition to help someone", unless it helps the country otherwise.


User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

"Why all the blame on France and Germany? It takes two to agree to something, and when none of them want to compromise, it's boths fault"

Because out of the huge number of countries, they have been the most callous and most hypocritical--especially, since they have vast interests in Iraq which they need to protect--other countries, including the US have dirtied themselves by doing business with SH, those two, especially France withit's unilateralist threats of veto (and no compromise on that either) make them preety much blameworthy. As far as comrpomise, we have had 12 years of "compromise", "negotiation" and "inpsection, with NO result - and now that the end is near for SH, Germany comes across with a tacitly transparent statement for a quick end to war and removal of SH.


User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

What about Russia, and the rest of the countries in the world who also supported the same stance?

Staffan


25 Post contains links NoUFO : Here is one more link .. uh wait, Schröder didn't like Hussein back in May 2002 already: http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/WH/wh-bush-052302.htm
26 Aloges : Well, the war changed things in Iraq, in the UN, and changed the facts. Didn't it? 747-451, what would you do when your lawsuit begins? Change attitud
27 747-451 : Staffan, As I said, there are several parties to be blamed. The behavior of the Russians is to be almost expected between LukOil, the GPS jammers and
28 NoUFO : 747-451, I have to go back to work, but:... However, Shroeder, the greens and especially Fischer disgust me with their Anti US rhetoric- Fischer's ant
29 747-451 : The fact is that she said it; quite appalling. The Greens and Schroeder and Fischer still disgust me. "Mrs. Rice and one Senator said, Germany (world'
30 CX747 : This War is about ridding the world of a madman and making it a safer and better place for all of us. That being said, lets not wear any rose colored
31 Aloges : Chris, I know you're a person one can talk to. But why are you so mad at Schröder, Fischer and Germany in general? And why do you think " the "nazi",
32 Aloges : "If your GIs didn't spill any blood then you don't deserve any of the economic windfall." Oh please. If I replace "economic windfall" with "oil", you
33 NoUFO : The fact is that she said it; quite appalling. Fact is that she's no longer part of the government after she reportedly said it. The Greens and Schroe
34 747-451 : Mainly because of his anti west and anti US (supposedly) past and his loose affiliations with terorist groups in the 70's. (re: Fisher)
35 NoUFO : In 1977, Fischer turned away from "revolutionary" politics. Later he called this his "loss of illusions"; he was "terribly wrong", he said. I consider
36 Post contains images 747-451 : I think it speaks for our societies that we can leave one individuals past behind, forgive and even delegate responsibilities Now if only and idiot li
37 CX747 : Colin Powell met yesterday with certain members from the E.U. and U.N. He basically stated that the E.U. and U.N. will not be in charge. The countries
38 Staffan : Who is going to pay for the refugees that will flood Europe, as they have done after every war?
39 Post contains images 747-451 : "Who is going to pay for the refugees that will flood Europe, as they have done after every war? " Totalfina, Dassault etc etc etc....
40 Staffan : 747-451, whatever floats your boat... Anyone else?
41 747-451 : Aloges: I am seething at some of the commentary from the German Parliament, not becase of their dissention. I am not necessarily for this war either a
42 Staffan : "I do not understand how a country or actually the government of Germany, can stand by idlely while a dictator such as Hussein "runs wild" since Germa
43 CX747 : We still have NO evidence of WMDs? Are you smoking crack? Seriously, I guess the last 12 years and all the chemicals etc that have been found are just
44 9V-SVE : We still have NO evidence of WMDs? Are you smoking crack? Seriously, I guess the last 12 years and all the chemicals etc that have been found are just
45 Post contains images 747-451 : Staffan: "Secondly, if the "war on terror" (which I believe this campaing belongs to), is about freeing people from oppressing regimes, when is China
46 Staffan : "What do you suggest a world war? really! Sure right all at once There is more to setting priorities than being simplistic..." People find it stange t
47 Racko : "Colin Powell met yesterday with certain members from the E.U. and U.N. He basically stated that the E.U. and U.N. will not be in charge. The countrie
48 CX747 : The EU has said that the U.N. should be in charge because that allows the E.U. to have a large say in what goes on in post-war Iraq. Also, this fight
49 Post contains images 747-451 : "People find it stange that Iraq was chosen, since the whole issues more and more seems to be the oppression of the Iraqi people... Just an observatio
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