Clipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 13 Posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1548 times:
At the invitation of Mr. Putin, Herr Schroeder and Monsieur Chirac are to meet in St. Petersburg this weekend.
Chirac said Putin had invited him and Schroeder "to discuss all aspects of the situation" in Iraq. The visit will also be "an occasion to discuss postwar Iraq," Chirac says.
Kofi Anan was also invited but declined as he will meet later with EU members.
After Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair met, perhaps these three feel behind the "power curve" and need to regroup in their role as to define what post-war Iraq will look like.
Or perhaps it is just as simple as realizing that they perhaps should have joined this coalition considering it's success and coming to the conclusion that it's damage control time.
PHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1461 times:
Clipperhawaii wrote:
"Or perhaps it is just as simple as realizing that they perhaps should have joined this coalition..."
Well, Schroeder and particularly Chirac are enjoying record poll numbers right now, while some pro-war politicians on the continent -- notably Aznar and Berlusconi -- are really struggling. I don't think that Chirac, Schroeder, and Putin are losing any sleep over their decision which was (and still is) very popular in Europe, where most people -- in most cases the overwhelming majority -- consider this war dangerous, unnecessary, and likely to lead to instability down the road. Even potential economic consequences don't change that.
As far as the "they didn't join the war, so they shouldn't be involved economically" attitude one hears from some people... well, that will just reinforce many Europeans' view that Bush's decision to go to war was motivated, in large part, by financial interests.
Clipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 13 Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1461 times:
PHX-LJU, I agree that these three are beholden to no one other than their own population and votes. They certainly feel they made the right choice. Their choice was certainly theirs.
In the end, it is still political and it will come around to voters whims in the future. After all, George Bush after the Gulf War had astronomical poll numbers. Potential economic consequences are, and should be a concern. I doubt though, that in the end that these countries will be "punished". That would certainly be inapropriate.
Coalition blood was spilled (the dirty work) and to have these countries come in and reap equal gains in credit to restoring democracy and gaining bussiness relationships would also be inapropriate.
Perhaps not being involved now and in the future may be they way to save face. If there is any face to save.
Glenn From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1444 times:
Coalition blood was spilled (the dirty work) and to have these countries come in and reap equal gains in credit to restoring democracy and gaining bussiness relationships would also be inapropriate.
so what's really at stake here, the Iraqi poeple, In which case, teh more help they get the better, or the American economy. After all, the best way to prop a struggling economy, is to start a war. But surely, the Mercans wouldn't be so vindictive as to blast a country into submission (yeah yeah, I know, it's done for liberation) and then make them wait for repair while they sort out who is going to reap the profits. Is this what it's really all about.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1441 times:
As PHX put it, the assumptions of Clipper are dead wrong, not that he will accept that, but there is another thing that bothers me in connection with this meeting:
One might get the impression, that Chirac and Schroeder are preparing to set up some sort of "Core EU", that will be the Europe for Russia to talk to (and probably China, too). That and Chirac's rather undiplomatic statements to the new members on that letter to Bush will be well fit to create exactly that impression. And that would be the worst possible way for the EU to carry on.
It would have been much more rewarding to include all leaders of current EU member states in such a meeting just to give a sign to Washington, too. Instead the sign given now is probably the one the US government just loves to receive.
Clipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 13 Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1433 times:
Interesting take on the meeting Andreas. You assume wrongly that I wont consider my own conclusions wrong. I have been wrong before and I freely admidt it. Though it does not happen to often!
Maybe that "core" EU thing you mention is that "old Europe" thing mentioned before.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1429 times:
The old Europe thing is nonsense and was nothing but another political strike of the US hawk group who would just love to see the EU split up, as that would be the split of a large competitor into two smaller ones.
I'm afraid this meeting is some sort of a revenge directed at the other members, or it may at least be interpreted as such. This would be a completely wrong signal that would need a lot of mending afterwards, time that is urgently needed to solve other EU problems, which will then be delayed and delayed and delayed....
This is one of the first big mistakes (besides some of his personal rhethorics during election time) Schroeder is about to make in this whole affair (in all other affairs concerning Germany he commits nothing else but mistakes, which is of much more concern to me right now, but doesn't belong here).
Cfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1423 times:
This is only the beginning. The process of transforming Iraq from a tin-pot dictatorship into a decent example of Middle Eastern democracy has not even begun. It will take 5-10 years just to set up the basics. They will have to write a new constitution, elect a government, and then begin the long difficult process of making it work. A lot of basic elements have been destroyed in the looting and destruction that has gone on - birth records, for example. Or tax records. All these are essential and will have to be reconstituted.
In 50 years, new history books will be written. What they will say depends on how well this experiment works. If Iraq becomes a fine example of democracy and prosperity, in a part of the world which knows little of either, the history books of 2053 will describe Bush and Blair as visionaries, and Chirac and Schroeder will be described at the same level as Neville Chaimberlain, or worse.
CPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5747 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1414 times:
That democracy, that the US is hell-bent on creating, is going to have a very difficult time, with the neighbours surrounding them (of course, that is unless the US decides to 'democratize' them too) and the 3 ethnical groups inside Iraq.
Remember, the Kurds will press very hard to get their own country, and think they'll be able to get the US to play along since they helped them in OIL (Operation Iraqi Liberation). If they manage to do that, then the Shiiti (or what ever they're called) muslims in the south are going to rebel in favor of their own country as well, and then the shit hits the fan.
.. oh, and the only split that has occured in EU, was when the 7 heads of states signed that piece of paper, before the EU was able to issue a statement.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1400 times:
What is needed is a headline that says "Bush, Blair, Chriac, Schroeder and Putin to meet".
That's what needs to happen, and soon. I just wonder if all of them are going to act like little kids who skirmished on a playground, and when the teacher asks them to make up, they stand, with backs turned, and hands folded across their chests, with scowls on their faces.
They all need to grow up and get past this, for the sake of everyone.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
As far as Blair and Schroeder are concerned, there won't be much of a problem, both are close friends and the EU summit a few weeks ago did indicate that they still get along pretty well. Unfortunately the same summit indicated pretty clearly that Chirac and Blair do have a severe problem with each other...even for publicity's sake there was not even one pic of restored friendship.
Now as far as Bush is concerned...No way I'm afraid, it will be Colin Powell who'll have to do the work, and here again a small advantage for Germany as Powell and Fischer get along pretty well with each other.
Still it is the EU, that is, the EU as a whole, who needs to get its act together, before they even think about the other side of the Atlantic ocean.
Racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, RR: 21 Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
Alpha 1, I agree wholeheartly. They need to get their act together and come to a solution together instead of meeting on their own and blaming the other side.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1370 times:
Andreas, Powell is one of the few decent guys Bush has around him, but he does not carry the weight of the Presidency on his shoulders. No, I have to disagree with you. Powell can lay some groundwork, but in the long run, either the President acts like a grown man, and starts at least giving a forum to the concerns of his erstwhile allies, or he will continue, through his own arrogance, isolate the U.S. from it's own friends.
NoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7798 posts, RR: 13 Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1367 times:
I have been wrong before and I freely admidt it. Though it does not happen to often!
What exactly does not happen to often?
As for the meeting I have a weird feeling. Apart from this whole Iraq issue, Putin wants closer ties to the EU, so it is a good idea to meet with EU's two main protagonists. France government can do whatever comes to its mind, as France's relationship to UK/U.S. has more or less always been uncomfortable.
Schr?der, however, has to navigate much more carefully. Before August 2002, Germany has always had good relationships with the U.S. (to the uneasiness of F.'s government) and France (to the uneasiness of the U.S. administration).
The population of Russia and Israel suffered most under the Nazi regime, so care must be taken here as well.
Sitting between all chairs, Schr?der should not focus to much on France and Russia. I agree with Alpha_1; it is sort of a "Big 5" conference we need.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 16, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1368 times:
I don't think there is too much of a chance that Bush and Chirac/Schroeder will ever get along well, so the work between both parties will have to be done by Powell from the US side, sort of a second-best working solution...the governments per se won't get closer to each other anymore, so I guess the voters will have to do this on both sides of the Atlantic. Unfortunately this goes as well for Tony Blair, who might be the man to do the dirty work between EU and the US, as he is already beginning to do right now.
btw: Bush is not the only problem for Schroeder and Chirac, there's Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, who probably doesn't even know where Germany is, and of course Ashcroft, though the latter didn't play a relevant role in this whole political mess.
NoUFO: I agree, but I can't see it, and I see another priority: That the EU gets its act together, and not France/Germany/Belgium alone, that would be a rather stupid way to proceed, because otherwise Bush would have a big advantage: He'd know that he doesn't deal with the EU, but only with 3 members, giving him the chance to present, what so many here on this Forum desperately want to see: Schroeder and Chirac come back to be good boys again. And that would be the worst thing to do, helping Bush to get re-elected, which would only stretch the current situation by another 4 years.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1362 times:
I don't think there is too much of a chance that Bush and Chirac/Schroeder will ever get along well
It's not a matter of them being buddies, Andreas. Do you get along with everyone you HAVE to work with? Probably not, and neither do I, nor does anyone else, but when a job needs to be done, most of us, I imagine, can put aside, at least somewhat, our personal grips, and get the job done. These guys need to do that, and soon. Or they're not very good leaders.
btw: Bush is not the only problem for Schroeder and Chirac, there's Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, who probably doesn't even know where Germany is
You're overdoing the "dumb American" routine, by saying such things, Andreas. You know that's not true of these people, so don't pretend it is, to continue to foster a negative stereotype.
Having said that, those you mentioned may not be liked by Schroeder and Chirac, but they're only advisors to Bush. And just as Bush may not like some of Schroeder's or Chriac's advisors, in the long run, they are only secondary to the two Chiefs of State. In the long run, the background people don't matter as much as the leaders themselves.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 34 Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1358 times:
Just look at you and me: It just doesn't work, so let's leave it at that. You can't prove your opinion, because that is exactly what it is, and I can't prove mine, though I don't hide the fact, that it is nothing but an opinion, under pompous arrogance.
Alpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1371 times:
Just look at you and me: It just doesn't work, so let's leave it at that.
That may be, but if we were colleagues, no matter what our personal opinions, we could work together and get a task done that needed to get done-at least most people who claim to be adults can do that.
That's what these leaders need to do-put aside personal feelings, and get the job done for the people of their respective nations.
Erj190 From Portugal, joined Dec 2000, 397 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1320 times:
The fact is, I think nothing will ever be like it was.
I unfortunately don't think the American "New-right" can in fact accept concessions from the US. And it's the US that has to make concessions, if they want Europe to look at America with the same eyes.
The fact is that most people in Europe not counting Germans and French, looked at the position of both Chiraq and Schroeder as THE European position.
This is just going to make European countries understand the need of having a proper and credible Armed force.
It's going to be difficult. Even yesterday I was watching a French TV channel saying that the French tank Leclerc could be the first victim, if the core of this European army was to make an option for the LEOPARD tank.
One of the first decisions is that some European armies are considering to group their purchasing programs, to reduce the unit costs. Europe spends around 80% of what American spends in weapons, but the strength of Europe is around 10% of America's.
The French are seriously considering to purchase the new Aircraft carrier design of the British, meaning that France will be using British built carriers. At the same time, that means that the British will be using RAFALLE aircraft for their two future carriers. The Germans are preparing to buy RAFALLE aircraft to operate them out of the French nuclear carrier "DeGaulle".
The Italian and the Spanish, are traditional allies of the French and/or the Germans, Aznar will probably fall victim of this historically weird position of Spain, Berlusconi will probably follow, and their countries will probably join this efforts.
It would be better if the US could give a different image of themselves, but until the Hawks completely control the administration, I really don't know.
Clipperhawaii From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2033 posts, RR: 13 Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1312 times:
Buy American!
Battle tried, battle tested. Why settle for anything less? Maybe that's the topic of these three?
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16276 posts, RR: 52 Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1283 times:
"The French are seriously considering to purchase the new Aircraft carrier design"
Yeah but the French still rely on US expertise for their Naval Aviation programs, they come here to Lakehurst Naval Enginering Station here in New Jersey.
Lakehurst engineers also go to the French when they need help.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16276 posts, RR: 52 Reply 24, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1280 times:
Lakehurst Naval Enginering Station is known as the place where the Hindenburg crashed.
It's also where most aircraft carrier technology has been developed, everything from landing lights to flight deck fire fighting vehicles.
25 Klaus: Just to get back to the political arena for a minute: Blair is indeed in communication with Chirac and with Putin as well as with Schröder right now;
26 Thumper: I can see Bush ,Schroeder, and Putin getting together in the near future but I doubt the thief of Paris would ever be included. The U.S.,G.B. Germany
27 Indianguy: Historically, Germany and Russia have BOTH benefitted when they worked together, and BOTH lost when they worked against each other. That is why i beli
28 N79969: Roy, I guess you have never heard of the Ribbentrop-Malotov pact. That did not work out all that well for the Russians. About 20 million of them were
29 Erj190: "...But I fear that this Shroeder is no Bismarck!..." I hope he is not. Remember that the problems between the French/Germans and the USA started whe
31 Racko: "So, we really do not need new Bismarks. They were in the origin of devastating wars in Europe." I'd say the contrary, Bismarck's union policy prevent
32 QANTASFOREVER: Here is the cold hard truth. Reasons for war: - Pre war: WMD - During/post war: Liberty Doves support a war to liberate, but not a war to get rid of s
33 STT757: ERJ-190, once again your way off base. The US-French/German relationship got bad because of Schroeder campaigning against US Foreign policy to get ele
34 JeffM: Do those three really think anyone really cares what they say? Jeff
35 Racko: These unworthy anti-americans should just shut up, and their unworthy ugly countries with 'em. 'nuff said. God bless America !!1
36 STT757: "shut up", for now on that should be in quotations, with credit going to Chirac.
37 PHX-LJU: JeffM wrote: "Do those three really think anyone really cares what they say?" While you may not care, much of the world does (including more than 285
38 JeffM: I didn't say they did not have a right to their opinion Mr. Name Withheld. I was just asking if there was anyone that takes what they say seriously. A
39 Klaus: JeffM: I didn't say they did not have a right to their opinion Mr. Name Withheld. I was just asking if there was anyone that takes what they say serio
40 PHX-LJU: JeffM wrote: "I was just asking if there was anyone that takes what they say seriously. After all, 285 million people is a relatively miniscule number
41 JeffM: You really think people outside their countries care about their opinions? I just don't see it. I just don't see any influence from those guys anywher
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