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How The Road To War Was Paved With Lies  
User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

A very interesting article about what exactly brought us to this War on Iraq (in case you have forgotten).

http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=400805&host=3&dir=508


Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

I consider it to be nothing but another anti-war propaganda piece written by a person who has an agenda to push.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1754 times:

Yet there are valid points in the article.

WMDs haven't been found, despite it being the KEY reason we went to war. Will they be found? This isn't a technicality, this is a major issue. IF...IF...the US and UK were lying, there should (but probably won't) be major repercussions.


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1717 times:

777236ER:


What I find interesting about the article is that it says that this whole war has started based upon some very 'shaky' intelligence. Intelligence which has already been proven either untrustfull, incomplete, out of date, forged or completely wrong. The intelligence agencies knew this, yet it were the politicians that used those parts of the intelligence that suited best their arguments.



[Edited 2003-04-29 01:56:23]


Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quote from Abraham Lincoln

January, 1863

"The hen is the wisest of all the animal creation because she never cackles until after the egg has been laid."

Perhaps we are drawing conclusions prematurally, in the hope of validating our own arguments. But for each article extolling proof positive the perpetration of deceit will be others countering just the opposite, persuasivally (sic).

Time will tell.




You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Bush tried to convince the world that he had overwhelming evidence of WMDs. Not a "hunch". Not just a bunch of circumstantial evidence. He berated international leaders that asked for some proof.

In my mind being so sure that a significant amount of WMDs existed in Iraq would mean that once he invaded and secured Iraq, it would be easy to seize them and display them for the world to see.

At this point in time, I see that Bush was either lying or he's an idiot. Either conclusion fits.....


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

At this point in time, I see that Bush was either lying or he's an idiot. Either conclusion fits.....

Actually, a balanced conclusion not blinded by anti-American hatred would yield some additional possibilities:
1. The WMD's are well hidden/disbursed & hence have not been found yet.
2. The WMD's were spirited away to either Syria or Iran.
3. The WMD's have been found but the coalition forces have chosen not to release this info yet.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1603 times:

Interesting, how everyone has his own favorite source of "facts", and then argues that "my facts are better than your facts"

We should all heed Mark Twain's wise observation: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

Claiming that the President lied is, with the information presently at hand, nothing short of libel.

Pete


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

IT'S A MIRACLE.

B757300, actually went a WHOLE THREAD without saying the word "liberal"!

Can the Armageddon be far behind?



User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

"Actually, a balanced conclusion not blinded by anti-American hatred would yield some additional possibilities:"

What you're trying to say may be legitimate and acceptable, but by using the words "anti-American hatred" you prove that you're not that unprejudiced either. Please understand that criticising George Bush and his (foreign) policy does not mean hating America.

"1. The WMD's are well hidden/disbursed & hence have not been found yet."

That's definitely a point, because you can never know. It is also a point that will never be questionable, just like the fact that Bush broke international law when he attacked Iraq.

"2. The WMD's were spirited away to either Syria or Iran."

Why? Why would Saddam haul a load of WMDs to Iran, the country he fought a cruel and long war against? Also, he's a Sunni who oppressed his country's Shii majority - whereas Iran is led by Shii muslims. So why would he send / be allowed to hide those weapons in Iran? (apologies for any misspellings in "Sunni" and "Shii")
As for Syria, I don't think they would hide those WMDs either. If they did, they'd have to be ignorant of what GWB would do with their country - a thing the Syrians certainly don't want to happen.

"3. The WMD's have been found but the coalition forces have chosen not to release this info yet."

Why? In order not to give Bush the evidence he wants? It would also be difficult to hide such findings from all the (embedded) journalists.




Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1541 times:

How about...

4. All WMDs have been previously destroyed in the first Gulf War and the seven years of UN inspections following it.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1534 times:

Claiming that the President lied is, with the information presently at hand, nothing short of libel.

Jesus.

We're really there, aren't we? The wholesale infection of a vast swath of the American population with outright indoctrination has been achieved. BUSH GOOD...MUST NOT INSULT BUSH...ALL WHO DO ARE CRIMINALS.

This is a guy who could open up concentration camps tommorow and select from the population whoever he desired to be sent there, and I'm now convinced 40 to maybe 60 percent of the US population would instantly switch off their own doubt factor and default to his wishes. His vast friendly media spin empire would see to that.

Whatever happens from here on out, historians will say one thing about the Bush Presidency....their corporate-like command of their target customer base has moved from impressive to Goebbels-esque.

We live in dark times.



User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1493 times:

>>>Why? Why would Saddam haul a load of WMDs to Iran, the country he fought a cruel and long war against? Also, he's a Sunni who oppressed his country's Shii majority - whereas Iran is led by Shii muslims. So why would he send / be allowed to hide those weapons in Iran? (apologies for any misspellings in "Sunni" and "Shii")<<<

Saddam did just that in the first Gulf War. He flew and parked much of his air force in Iran out of harms way.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineAloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1484 times:

ROFLMAO, FDXmech!  Big thumbs up Thank you for the laugh!!  Nuts Somewhere on a.net, I even read that the bigger part of the Iraqi AF pilot crowd escaped to Iran - now that's a symbol of "loyalty to death"! Big grin


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineFanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1608 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1490 times:

A few things we've seem to forgotten...

#1 Saddam was a cruel leader killing many of his own people for foolish reasons. Are you perfectly willing to let people die for so much as opposing a president? We've found many files, Saddam documented what happens to those that oppose him. There's an entire country living in fear of a ruthless leader that only begins to speak when he's gone. Yes, there are many in Iraq who oppose us, and they have a right to, especially if we stay longer than is necessary. The overwhelming majority, however, are greatful to be released from bondage. Iraq may prove to become a great country again. Why are people so quick to dismiss these Iraqi lives?

#2, While the US would love to take credit for freeing the Iraqi people, we cannot fully take this credit. We had a lot of help from coalition forces. (It's wierd how everyone forgets Tony Blair; it's like they dismiss him as a Bush puppet. I'm sorry, but the UK is its own country. They won't be bullied into something by America.) Almost a bigger factor was an Iraqi military who gave little resistence, and an Iraqi people who welcomed the forces.

#3 If Bush is such a dictator here at home (as implied by Heavymetal) he would foget about Iraq and focus on the short term problems here at home, to be recognized as a great president. If this war was about oil, which it wasn't, we could have prevented the whole conflict by making friends with Saddam. It would have cost the American tax payer a hell of a lot less! Troubling times require great leaders to step up and stand for what is right for humanity, not just stand up for what is right politically. It doesn't matter your religion, but I trust a leader who prays each morning, asking for direction from above, over a leader who gets some head in the oval office from an intern.



"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1798 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1470 times:

#1 Saddam was a cruel leader killing many of his own people for foolish reasons.
***********************

And nobody really cared untill he threatened the flow of oil to the west.



Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1464 times:

#1 Saddam was a cruel leader killing many of his own people for foolish reasons. Are you perfectly willing to let people die for so much as opposing a president? We've found many files, Saddam documented what happens to those that oppose him. There's an entire country living in fear of a ruthless leader that only begins to speak when he's gone. Yes, there are many in Iraq who oppose us, and they have a right to, especially if we stay longer than is necessary. The overwhelming majority, however, are greatful to be released from bondage. Iraq may prove to become a great country again. Why are people so quick to dismiss these Iraqi lives?

#2, While the US would love to take credit for freeing the Iraqi people, we cannot fully take this credit. We had a lot of help from coalition forces. (It's wierd how everyone forgets Tony Blair; it's like they dismiss him as a Bush puppet. I'm sorry, but the UK is its own country. They won't be bullied into something by America.) Almost a bigger factor was an Iraqi military who gave little resistence, and an Iraqi people who welcomed the forces.

#3 If Bush is such a dictator here at home (as implied by Heavymetal) he would foget about Iraq and focus on the short term problems here at home, to be recognized as a great president. If this war was about oil, which it wasn't, we could have prevented the whole conflict by making friends with Saddam. It would have cost the American tax payer a hell of a lot less! Troubling times require great leaders to step up and stand for what is right for humanity, not just stand up for what is right politically. It doesn't matter your religion, but I trust a leader who prays each morning, asking for direction from above, over a leader who gets some head in the oval office from an intern.


Yeah, but Bush went to war because he had WMDs. Not for anything else. WMDs.


User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Right on cue YYZ717! Right after my post!

1. The WMD's are well hidden/disbursed & hence have not been found yet.
2. The WMD's were spirited away to either Syria or Iran.
3. The WMD's have been found but the coalition forces have chosen not to release this info yet.


1. If they were so well hidden, then what overwhelming evidence could the US of had?

2. Spirited away? Are you suggeting that Saddam could have pulled this off under the coalition’s nose?

3. Yah right….

YYZ717, my comments were directed towards George Bush, not the American people. If you insist on continuing this false unsubstantiated accusations of me being Anti-American you will need to provide proof. Until then, I will just consider your insults “flames” and request that they be deleted.


User currently offlineGoingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1452 times:

Not only did he have WMD's...we had proof of it. Of course, we didn't tell the UN inspectors where to find them, and doggone it if they didn't move them.

User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

Christ People! What is this? Be nasty to Bush day?

GWB has been exceptionally brave by standing up for his beliefs and getting rid of this tyrannical dictator.

You talk of truth? Well, history has shown that truth is determined by victory. Legitimacy? That too is conferred by victory. THAT is what matters: Victory on the field.

-Roy


User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1408 times:

I just found this Op-Ed at the NY Times on the same issue.

I believe Mr Krugman addresses some valid points:

" Now it's true that the war removed an evil tyrant. But a democracy's decisions, right or wrong, are supposed to take place with the informed consent of its citizens. That didn't happen this time. And we are a democracy ? aren't we?"

The rest of article is here: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/29/opinion/29KRUG.html?ex=1052620705&ei=1&en=36da50ec4a322149



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1403 times:

YYZ717, my comments were directed towards George Bush, not the American people.

Not according to the way you worded it.

If you insist on continuing this false unsubstantiated accusations of me being Anti-American you will need to provide proof. Until then, I will just consider your insults “flames” and request that they be deleted.

Ya whatever. Best of luck.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAirplay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1398 times:

YYZ717, my comments were directed towards George Bush, not the American people.

Not according to the way you worded it.



Huh???? Nowhere in the entire post does it have the word "American". It has several references to Bush specifically. Talk about your blind hatred....


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