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'Old Europe' Presses Ahead With Plans For EU Army  
User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/30/weu30.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/30/ixnewstop.html

What do all you peace loving anti-iraq anti-military europeans have think about this. Are you happy about it or do you feel betrayed by the fact that the EU government is very interested in positioning itself as a new military rival to the US?

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Well be sure to install the right amount of reverse gears in the transportation equipment.

Thanks,
France
----
Please keep the tanks out of our yard.

Thanks,
Belguim and The Netherlands


[Edited 2003-04-30 06:28:42]


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2985 times:

The US needs a worthy rival. I predict this will hasten world peace rather than delay it.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlinePPGMD From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

I seriously doubt that even still they will stand a chance, you have to have money to pay for the high tech equipiment, look at how long the Eurofighter program is taking.


At worst, you screw up and die.
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2979 times:

>>>The US needs a worthy rival. I predict this will hasten world peace rather than delay it.<<<

To do what?









You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

To act as a checkman to keep us from making asses of ourselves.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

Sounds like just a joint Franco-German army ultimately.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

I am all for Europe pulling its own weight in matters of defence. By all means, as Europe has similar economic potential with the U.S., the U.S. should in fact insist that the EU maintain force projection capabilities on par with those of the U.S., so that the U.S. no longer has to subsidize European interests, as it has for 50 years.

Force projection means aircraft carriers, troop transports, pre-positioned equipment, etc. It costs money. Europe generally doesn't like to spend that kind of money.

My big question is how the command-and-control would be handled. What will be the operating language of the military? Will the nationalities of the different commanders become a political issue?

Charles


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2940 times:

My big question is how the command-and-control would be handled. What will be the operating language of the military? Will the nationalities of the different commanders become a political issue?

All valid questions. I think a bigger question is what if Europe cannot develop a unified political stand? How can an army support a non-unanimous decision? Look at the division of Europe over Iraq......that would render a Euro-army impotent from the get-go.





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2937 times:

>>>To act as a checkman to keep us from making asses of ourselves.<<<

Can you be more specific? For instance, what would've been the scenario with Iraq had this EU force been in place?



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

I'm sure France would love an EU Army with a common equipment policy. As long as it was French equipment of course.

There is no way that France would remain in any EU Army if they did not purchase most of their equipment from them.


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2925 times:

Can the kids stop with the France bashing please? I guess there is more to bash about in the US with cowboy Bush, than about Chirac (although I don't like both).

First of all, I think that the Iraq crisis made the way for a new Europe (btw: even now we are not the old europe kauspilot, can you stop your anti-europeanism please?). Everyone faces now that from now, we have to sit around the table for everything, and take a general standpoint following what the majority thinks. What we need is integration.

@Charles: language is indeed a problem... Probably English (what else)?

Not America only has to decide about world affairs what they want, and do what they want, also Europe needs it's voice. And I think this is the first step to a new and better Europe.


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2918 times:

btw: even now we are not the old europe kauspilot, can you stop your anti-europeanism please

Yeah, that's great. Blame me for the title of the article.


User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

I think it's rather funny to see how we first get picked at for not having a proper army, and when we decide to get one, we get picked on for that... True colours shining through?

Staffan


User currently offlineKAUSpilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1958 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2913 times:

I'm not saying it's necessarily good or bad, just want to know what you think about it.

User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2900 times:

Sabena,

The French refuse to even comply with common sense safety rules concerning French and English. Here in Geneva, if you listen to ATC radio, all the airlines use English, except for the French - no matter what the dangers are and in spite of accidents having happened in France itself due to pilots speaking different languages. Given this level of national pride, I don't believe they will accept having to use English for all military communication.

What if the European Armies are structured like the U.S. National Guard - i.e. normally under the authority of the individual states, but if the situation calls for it, it can immediately be placed under Federal authority? This would avoid having a large, fixed EU force. All you would really need is a rapid deployment force.

I think a rapid deployment force would consist of, under the full authority of the EU, 1 paratroop division, specialized light infantry tailor-made for being dropped into hot-spots on short notice, and as a heavier unit, although a bit slower to deploy, would be a unit similar to the American armored cavalry regiments, which are a very well balanced, hard hitting mixture of armor, infantry, and airborne capability (the downside to the cavalry regiments is that they lack much of the logistical tail - they depend on other units for support for sustained operations).

With 2 such units, the EU can have a very hard-hitting force of 15-20,000 or so men - pretty much all you really need on very short notice. These units could be rotated - i.e. one year, both units would be "on loan" from Great Britain, Italy the following year, then France, and so on. This would allow each unit to train together and be familiar with each others tactics, cultural issues etc which unavoidably will be a factor in creating an effective and cohesive fighting force, even in the very first years of the RDF.

Charles


User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

An EU army without the British military is like NATO without the US. Pointless.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

The French refuse to even comply with common sense safety rules concerning French and English. Here in Geneva, if you listen to ATC radio, all the airlines use English, except for the French

Ok Charles, I also don't like this, but the same happens in Spain! Also Iberia pilots talk Spanish to ATC over there.

Why do you actually blame the arrogance of France, while America is actually far more arrogant?

/Frederic


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Kauspilot, to come back at your introduction:

What do all you peace loving anti-iraq anti-military europeans have think about this. Are you happy about it or do you feel betrayed by the fact that the EU government is very interested in positioning itself as a new military rival to the US?

In the first sentence, I feel a lot of hatred towards the anti-war 'scum' over here.

1) peace loving: what do you have against peace?
2) anti-iraq: that's you. We are anti-Saddam, not anti the rest of the country.
3) anti-military: depends in which context. Wars were needed to maintain status quo until 1923. Now we have something called 'collective security'.
4) 'Europe will become military 'RIVAL' to the US': maybe you see, since you like what cowboy bush says so much, everything black and white (like 'you're with us or against us' for example), but here you are again wrong. It's not about becoming a rival of the US. Do YOU feel betrayed maybe because some scum old europe thing would developpe a european military unit? May only America have a good developped military unit?

United States population is about 4-5% of world population, it's time you guys realize that the world does not only turn around America, but also around other countries/states/whatever. Bush his unilateral attack on Iraq was low, very low, and if you want to see a better world, with a better relationship between europe-america, dump the bastard in 2004 and give the chance to a new start.

/Frederic


User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

The French are entitled by ICAO to use French.

Lets reverse the question. Imagine that not English but French were the official ATC language. Would Americans always speak French? I do not think so!

Just stop the France-bashing al right?



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Very true Peter, but those guys are so used that everyone has to adapt himself to the US...

And still they don't know why all those people are becoming anti-american (let's make clear: not me included).

/Frederic


User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

I know they are allowed to do it, but that does not mean that it is a good idea. Also, Geneva is not in their country - they speak French simply because they know that the controller will know how to speak it, but both (necessarily) also speak English, and there are a lot more pilots operating around here who speak english and no French than the other way round. I don't care if they speak Swahili, but they should pick a single language and stick to it.

Charles


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2808 times:

KAUS Pilot, you sound baffled.

With a man like George W. Bush in the White House, I'd be beefing up my defenses too.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2799 times:

Jcs17, for being a little kid, you sure think you know what the world is about. Fact is, son, you're getting all your one-liners, I imagine, from Mommy and Daddy, and any redneck friends you associate with.

I think France deserved just criticism for their actions, but enough is enough. This is a long-time friend an ally of the U.S., and this infantile behavior by the administration, by Congress and by others is getting to the point of absurdity.

With all those people making ânes of themselves, do we really need to listen to a teenage kid who knows shit about the world, trying to act clever? I don't think so.

Jcs, maybe you should just stick to things that you know about, like being a good little redneck.

My wife and I are going on a trip to celebrate our anniversary this weekend. I think I'll get us a bottle of wine when we're on our trip, and I think I'll try to make sure it's French.

[Edited 2003-04-30 15:42:25]

User currently offlineEg777er From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 1836 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2773 times:

Alpha 1, may I recommend a good (1995 perhaps?) Chateauneuf-de-Pape?

Had a very decent bottle last night in fact. Great stuff!


25 Post contains images Charleslp : An E.U. Army sounds like an okay idea, but you must also consider what makes the Army effective. For example, if you want an effective Navy, then you
26 Thumper : I think its a great idea.I have been saying all along the U.S. should get out of the U.N. and N.A.T.O. Think of all the money we would save to take ca
27 Aloges : Thumper, sounds good to me - but remember, if the US quit NATO, Germany, France, the UK etc. wouldn't be allies of the US any longer. As for quitting
28 Post contains images 747-451 : Sabena.... "Very true Peter, but those guys are so used that everyone has to adapt himself to the US..." Hmmmm....talk about arrogance yawn..... *****
29 Scorpio : how active they lobbied against the US, and decided to also use "unilateralism" in threatening to use their UNSC veto powers no matter what. Oh, you m
30 Post contains images Gc : "Lets reverse the question. Imagine that not English but French were the official ATC language. Would Americans always speak French? I do not think so
31 PHX-LJU : 747-451 wrote: "However, what distinguishes France from the others who did not support this "war" is how active they lobbied against the US, and decid
32 Post contains images 747-451 : Oh, you mean like Dubya wanted to attack, NO MATTER WHAT OR WHO? THAT kind of unilateralism, 747-451? No, Scorpio, I'm saying France is in the same bo
33 Scorpio : No, Scorpio, I'm saying France is in the same boat and guilty of the same thing--typical French hypocrisy; who does the same thing the US does. Ah, so
34 Post contains images 747-451 : "Ah, so it's OK when the US does it, but NOT when someone else does the same in response? Got it." Oh, excuse me? where did I say it was okay? Because
35 Scorpio : Oh, excuse me? where did I say it was okay? Because I didn't. What I am saying is that France practices hypocrisy with ease, like the US does. So why
36 Sabena 690 : I think its a great idea.I have been saying all along the U.S. should get out of the U.N. and N.A.T.O. Think of all the money we would save to take ca
37 Schoenorama : 747-451: "And the infantile behavior of Chirac (Along with Germany and Russia)to cover his extensive dealings with Iraq; ones which are of a such grea
38 STT757 : This "EU Army" is really just symbolic, it has no strength. 60,000 French, German , Belgium and Luxemburg troops. In comparison the US Army National G
39 Post contains images Clipperhawaii : France HAS NOT been enriching themselves during the sanctions-period, nor has any other country. That's up for debate in many quarters. Prove they hav
40 PHX-LJU : 747-451 wrote: "But the French went out of their way to oppose us, to a much greater degree than Germany or Canada for instance." Well, Canada and Ger
41 STT757 : Actually most European Nations did support the US, it's only Germany, France and Belgium (and Russia)that were opposed. Spain, Italy, the UK, Poland,
42 Jcs17 : Jcs17, for being a little kid, you sure think you know what the world is about. Fact is, son, you're getting all your one-liners, I imagine, from Momm
43 PHX-LJU : STT757 wrote: "Actually most European Nations did support the US, it's only Germany, France and Belgium (and Russia)that were opposed." Well, you coul
44 747-451 : PHX; Anyway, if you blame the French for going out of the way to oppose the war, couldn't you say that the Bush administration went out of its way to
45 Post contains images PHX-LJU : 747-451 wrote: "Not necessarily, because of UN Resolution 1441." But the Bush administration only went to the Security Council when they had the suppo
46 Travelin man : Does anyone here really think that Europe will fund a fighting Army that will rival what the United States has? Choices have been made: (Most of) Euro
47 PHX-LJU : Travelin man wrote: "Does anyone here really think that Europe will fund a fighting Army that will rival what the United States has? Choices have been
48 Arsenal@LHR : I've said it many times in this forum and i'll say it again, Europe (EU) is desperate to balance the power against the US "hyperpower". The bureacrats
49 Travelin man : A Euro army is not for peace-keeping or humanitarian purposes, it's there to act as a counter balance against US military power. The thing is, Europe
50 PHX-LJU : Arsenal@LHR wrote: "Instead of uniting Europe and the US, it will distance itself more, or even star a new, 21st century cold war, with two new power
51 Post contains links Schoenorama : Clipper: "That's up for debate in many quarters. Prove they have not." Prove they have! This rumour has been on this board a lot lately, yet I still h
52 Arsenal@LHR : The US has in the past complained about the lack of defence spending in Euro countries (except the UK) This also has a bearing on the incentive for a
53 STT757 : "4-Nation Plan for Defense of Europe By ELAINE SCIOLINO BRUSSELS, April 29 — Their goals may have been laudable, but their timing could not have bee
54 Post contains images Charleslp : From what I know, the U.S. spends $300 BILLION DOLLARS a year on defense spending. As far as I know that is more than all the members of the E.U combi
55 Post contains links and images 747-451 : Schonerama: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30408 http://www.dfat.gov.au/media/transcripts/2003/030211_abcradio_am_prog.html
56 Klaus : A few points: 1): The US deficit is already soundly snapping at the heels of the US economy. The dollar is on its way down, the deficit is skyrocketin
57 Prebennorholm : 'Old Europe' Presses Ahead With Plans For EU Army What is "old" Europe? And what is "new" Europe. From what I have learned it's only France and German
58 Post contains images Bobrayner : I'd imagine they'd make a lot more progress on the uncontroversial issues first; more coordinated sourcing, shared standards, joint exercises, things
59 STT757 : "Europe´s current position of economic strength" ?.. Where do you come up with the idea that Europe is economically stronger than the US?.. Last time
60 STT757 : "U.S.-Europe Discord Rocks the Shared Economic Boat By JOHN TAGLIABUE PARIS, April 27 — Louis Vuitton of France sells its handbags there and Antinor
61 STT757 : "The United States can run up deficits, they argue, because the promise of growth holds out the prospect that they will be paid off within a reasonabl
62 747-451 : PHX: "There's no doubt that Chirac has made a number of arrogant statements. However, why should we "deal differently" with France now? ' Because, his
63 PHX-LJU : 747-451 wrote: "Because, historically, France more than any other country, gone out of their way to block/hinder etc US efforts in may world arenas (w
64 FDXmech : >>>Secondly, although the Governments of Spain and Italy supported the US, the population of these countries did not. In Spain, 90% of the people were
65 Sabena 690 : For the 1000th time, we are NOT against the removal of Saddam, we are against HOW it happened.
66 FDXmech : >>>For the 1000th time, we are NOT against the removal of Saddam, we are against HOW it happened.
67 Post contains links and images 747-451 : PHX: "disagree with your premise. Sure, France is known for being independent when it comes to foreign policy and it has disagreed with the US on some
68 PHX-LJU : 747-451 wrote: "However, don't loose fact that Iraq is "everyones" problem and the French, as well as other European objections are questionable... I
69 Post contains images 747-451 : "France is a democracy and has every right -- moral or otherwise -- to condemn an international military intervention it disagrees with," Moral or oth
70 PHX-LJU : 747-451 wrote: "Moral or otherwise?? That may be fine, but that "immoral" feature strips them of judging us; something that they have done." If you're
71 Charleslp : I'm curious. Does Europe have more experience dealing with terrorism than the U.S. does?
72 PHX-LJU : Charleslp wrote: "Does Europe have more experience dealing with terrorism than the U.S. does?" Well, as a whole, Europe has experienced more terrorist
73 Post contains images 747-451 : PHX: "have argued that this is not really about those poor Iraqis and that Bush has plenty of ulterior motives for starting the war. " And the French
74 PHX-LJU : 747-451, I'm tired and have stated most of our arguments before, so I'll be brief: "And the French have ulterior motives for maintaining the horrible
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