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Norad Missle Defense System  
User currently offlineBombstar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 905 times:

Today on the subway in Toronto, i saw an ad paid for by some anti-nuclear activists seeking support to oppose Bush's National Missle Defense system, but what surprised me was that the ad mentioned that the US was seeking Canadian support to help build this type of system under NORAD. Whats your take on this?

by the way, if anyone is interested the website on the ad is at http://www.bombsaway.ca

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 877 times:

Typical extremists... and what is faxing Ottawa going to do?
Its scary, really, that these people actually (appear) to believe this crap they are spewing out.

Go join Amnesty and waste your time on saving political prisoners in the PRC or something....

 Insane


User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 875 times:

1) Faxing Ottawa will give the Canadian government a clear indication that this stupid program does NOT have the support of the Canadian people

2) Typical extremists? Is this what you call extremism?

We are medical students. We are young parents. We are web and graphic designers. We are writers and media workers. We are citizens. Most of all, we're looking for a little peace.

3) You will find that they probably already are members of Amnesty International, as well as the World Wildlife Fund, Greenpeace, and a host of other "extremist" groups.

Good luck to the Canadian people in getting their views heard on this issue, without the outside interference of the American government (and business).

But Canada being Canada, I expect that you guys too will condemn the NMD for the five reasons. http://www.bombsaway.ca/bunker/fivereasons.html

Scotty



User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 870 times:

Oh I knew you were going to cite that bit making them look like the people next door.

So when its Michael Medved, a balanced conservative, he's an extremist, but when it is a true, socialist extremist like this bombs away group, they're not extremists, they're medical students, young parents (I find that part a bit humorus), web and graphic designers, writers and media workers, and citizens, just looking for a little peace.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

 Insane


User currently offlineBombstar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 869 times:

I find it more funny that the US actually believes there is a treat out there that justifies spending $60 billion USD on a system which has failed 2/3 times.

User currently offlineDG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 862 times:

""We are medical students. We are young parents. We are web and graphic designers. We are writers and media workers. We are citizens. Most of all, we're looking for a little peace.""

Yeah, just think, it sure will be peaceful......after a 100 megaton bomb explodes over their trailor park that is.

Then I would have to say, "Well, we could have stopped that missile but..........".

 Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic

-Dustin



User currently offlineDG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 858 times:

I find it funny when people do not know the meaning of the concepts of "testing" and "experimentation".

They will improve the system beyond your dreams...


User currently offlineBombstar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 858 times:

I still dont think that there is a threat that justifies $60 billion dollars, and the risk of souring relations with other countries while sparking another arms race which WILL counter the system by launching hundreds of missles at once.

User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 860 times:

And here are the nominees for the "Best Line in a Comedy routine".

Firstly, we have:

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." -- Spoken by Dark Helmet in Spaceballs

The second nominee is:

"I had a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That may be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners." -- Jeff Stilson

The third nominee is:

"Some women hold up dresses that are so ugly and they always say the same thing: 'This looks much better on.' On what? On fire?" -- Rita Rudner

The fourth nominee is:

"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for the schoolchildren of Texas." -- Texas Gov. James Ferguson, 1917, explaining why he vetoed a bill funding the teaching of foreign languages in Texas schools. (A relative of Bush maybe???)

The fifth nominee is:

"They're multipurpose. Not only do they put the clips on, but they
take them off."
-- Pratt & Whitney spokesperson explaining why the company charged the Air Force nearly $1000 for an ordinary pair of pliers.

The sixth nominee is:

"Why does Sea World have a seafood restaurant? I'm halfway through my fish burger and I realize, Oh my God... I could be eating a slow learner." -- Lynda Montgomery

The seventh nominee is:

"I just broke up with someone and the last thing she said to me was, 'You'll never find anyone like me again!' I'm thinking, 'I should hope not! If I don't want you, why would I want someone like you?'" -- Larry Miller

The eigth nominee is:

"Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother
and child."
-- Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle on Republican family values

The ninth nominee is:

"I've been doing the Fonda workout: the Peter Fonda workout. That's where I wake up, take a hit of acid, smoke a joint, and go to my sister's house and ask her for money." -- Kevin Meaney

The tenth nominee is:

"I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law." -- David Dinkins, New York City Mayor, answering accusations that he failed to pay his taxes. (I think that Reagan used this line in relation to the Iran-Contra affair as well)

The eleventh nominee is:

.........

Stuff it...let's just give Dusty the trophy right here and right now.

So Dusty, which nation is going to all of a sudden turn and attack Canada? Greenland? Iceland? Swaziland? Lesotho? Or maybe Kiribati.

That's it......it has gotta be Kiribati.

Like I mentioned before the I-Kiribati are developing coconut-tipped warheads, which will be used in an offensive against the "sovereign power of the United States of America" (sorry, watched Clear and Present Danger last night). So maybe they are planning an attack on Canada as well huh?

 Insane



User currently offlineDG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 850 times:

Ahhh Pissie Brissie...did you wet your pants? You sure seem awful cantankerous....


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 844 times:

HELLO? Since when are people expressing opinions EXTREMIST? Are they threatening to bomb American military installations in Canada? Please....its called democracy - a concept that our two stars here understand only selectivley. These folks are genuinely concerned for themselves and society as a whole.

This was interesting too...

Go join Amnesty and waste your time on saving political prisoners in the PRC or something....

I thought this is from a person who is very concerned regarding the human rights record in China. Hmmm.....

Maybe Canada should join forces with Russia, China and North Korea to build a missle defence of their own to protect against the great rogue nation to our south  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 843 times:

The Missle defense sysrtem is a joke.

1 It doesn't work. The technology we have is not capable of an acceptable kill ratio.

2 What are we defending against? Another countries ICBM attack. The only country with the capability to launch a formidable ICBM attack against us, Russia and it's satelite countries, no longer pose a threat. Any first strike capability would be so massive it would be futile to defend North American cities against such a massive attack.

Each city is targeted with many MIRVS (multiple Independant Reentry Vehicles. All it takes is one to destroy an entire city. Some of these multi megaton weapons known as "city busters" would surely find their targets.

3 The realistic nuclear threat is from a small device or a number of small devices delivered in the back of a truck or boat.

4 The next real threat is from bilogical agents such as Anthrax, and even the protein Ricin which can be easilly made and disbursed over any city. I can order the Plague or Anthrax from any Bio warehouse in the country delivered to my door ready to culture. It happened already. A guy in the midwest US was caught buying the plague in cultured form from a bio warehouse who ship these cultures for reasearch purposes.

The missle defense system is feeding time for the national defense contractors.

The best defense we have against an attack is the massive retalitory response of ICBM's on route to a target rich environment in the attacking country.

Our Ohio class boomers wait silently in the depths of the oceans for such an incident. The attacking country would be wiped off the face of the earth before the initial strike lands on US soil.

Since the demise of the soviet Union our subs roam the ocean at will. One nuclear submarine has the potential to wipe every major city off the face of the earth.

The missle defense system is a joke. And so is a reduction of our nuclear arsenal from 7000 to 2,500 warheads Bush is proposing.

Bush is not heading in the direction I would like in his first 100 days.

JET


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 839 times:

3) You will find that they probably already are members of Amnesty International, as well as the World Wildlife Fund, Greenpeace, and a host of other "extremist" groups.


Brissie those are extremist groups. Actually I shouldn't say that. But there primary job is that of making money. Not trying to change the world. Why try and fix something when your money comes from protesting it? There is a fable about a Goose and eggs about that one.

"I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law." -- David Dinkins, New York City Mayor, answering accusations that he failed to pay his taxes. (I think that Reagan used this line in relation to the Iran-Contra affair as well)

I think Billy actually was the one that stole that line from Dinkins. Dinkins was post Reagan, Reagan could come up with his own lines.

JETPILOT.....I will agree with you that the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction did work when there was a clear enemy with clear agendas. But we no longer have the Soviet Union to keep some of the small countries in check.

FACT: The U.S. can and has in the past deployed a missle defense system, It is allowed under the ABM treaty. Both the Soviets and US where limited to one site. The Soviets put theirs around Moscow and we deployed one in Grafton ND. We drew ours down after a couple of years. If you go up there you can still see this huge concrete radar housing sticking out of the plains. The ABM only requires that if we build a new one it has to be located on this site. That is the part of the treaty that the US wants to change. Because while Grafton ND is perfect for over the pole shots on the continental US it is in a lousy place for shots from India, Pakistan, China, North Korea. By moving it to Alaska they are trying to improve their chances for interception from those locations. The flip side is that interception of polar shots from russia would be next to impossible since you would then be in a "tail chase" situation.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 838 times:

Organisations such as Amnesty, Greenpeace, World Wildlife Fund, San Frontieres Medicin, Community Aid Abroad, etc would rather not exist, and if they had their way they would rather be put out of business.

Their main purpose is not to raise money.

Their main purpose is to fight against injustices and governmental idiocy which threaten to kill the planet.

Raising money is only natural for these organisations, because I don't see the American government giving Greenpeace money so that Greenpeace can lobby against American nuclear weapons, and I don't see China giving Amnesty money so that Amnesty can investigate and report on human rights abuses in China.

Instead of putting them in this light, L-188, why not put them in a balanced light, and describe what these organisations are actually about.

On the other hand, if they are all extremist organisations, then Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Anglicans, etc, are all extremist as well....seeing as their primary function is to raise money.

Report things in the right light, like I said, and you will become a more balanced person in my eyes.....or do I have to catch you out like I have with N766AS and DG_Pilot?



User currently offlineBrissie_lions From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 837 times:

Hey guys and gals

Where do you all stand on this issue?

Are you as close to America like Bush is hoping?

Or you a more independent country and able to make up your own mind with meddling from outside?

Don't forget.....if you say "No" to the NMD, you will be joining an elite grouping of country's which also do not agree with this NMD.

(To see this grouping....get a map of the world.....and colour in the country to your south in red.....then look at that map and all those other country's which aren't in red......they are the ones who also oppose it).

Don't worry....in the end your voices will be heard Big grin


User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29791 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 833 times:

Balanced light???? hehehehe

Believe it or not I am pretty open minded but don't for a second belive that I have to buy onto your view of the world . I could say the exact same thing about several of your opinions and sources. I won't at this point but I could.



Then we had those canadian loggers who blockaded the boat down in B.C. with log booms and refused to release it untill they got paid for their lost of income from their activites.

Or them trying to go up the Nushagak river during a 12 hour opening and attempting to do it under sail. Tried to claim that they had the right of way since they where under sail. If you have a 12 hour period to make a good chunk of your income you are not going to pull your nets up for those yarbirds. They ended up having to start their diesel(ohhh no) and go up the channel under power.

Oh them hiding out in a bay for about a week because of weather in the Bering Sea. Then protesting the size of the boats in the fishing fleet. Geez you don't suppose that they have those large fishing boats because they have to handle the weather. Remember some fishing seasons have to be timed for certain periods of the year. For example the Opilio(Snow) crab season is a winter fishery. And it is the most dangerous single opeing in the world. A perfect storm has nothing on a Febuary Bering Sea crab fishery.

Sorry my opinion on Greenpeace(whom I am the most familiar with) was set when the boat "Rainbow Warrier" Docked in Homer, Ak where I used to live. When all of the granola crunchers got done with their tours they left and about 100 yard off then end of the dock dumped the tanks to their heads(Navel def) right there. This broke several regs about the proper disposal of sewage within the harbor. They claimed that their sewage was specially processed on the boat and wasn't a hazard. I guess they truely believe that their shit doesn't stink.

You would not belive my respect for the french government and their dealings with this groups. And I am not just talking about that little incident down in New Zealand.

Does anybody have the address for the video of that Greenpeace or Save the Whales boat getting raided by either the French or the Norwegians. I understand it is great footage. The law enforcement people bypassing hatches by using little 4 1/2 inch Makita saws to cut through bulkheads.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineDG_pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 856 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 830 times:

Ohh Brissie...waa waa waaa waa.

Just because we are looking into building a system that involves enough money to buy your country (ha ha) and that will protect us from threats your part of the world doesn't experience, you should tell us what to do?? C'mon get a life, your opinion specifically means absolutely nothing to us and our ideas.

What is in it for you? Why are so concerned? You don't have anything to lose.

-Dustin


User currently offlineNicolaki From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 826 times:

I personally don't give a damn about what america wants to do with it's money. They want to spend 60 billions $ on some rocket that don't even work to please the people that still live in the cold war state of mind. BUt don't drag other countries in you phantasm. As a Canadian, I really hope we'll stand up to our southern neighbor and say "Sorry guys, but you don't have our approuval for that, built it yourself"

Nicolas


User currently offlineCarioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 809 times:

What is wrong with wanting to protect yourself.



User currently offlineIndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 804 times:

I dont see anything wrong with the NMD! America has every right to protect itself from "enemies".

Ofcourse the rest of the world has no such right to acquire weapons for self-protection! When the rest of the world chooses to acquire such weapons, these very same people talk of non-proliferation!



User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 798 times:

But I think the rest of the world knows were not going to nuke anyone on a first strike. Although we are the only country in the world who ever used the bomb in a time if war.

I think it's safe to say we would only uses nukes in retaliation for another weapon of mass destruction.

JET



User currently offlineFDXmech From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3251 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 798 times:

I'm no authority on the subject but I assumed the prime purpose of such a system would be to shield the U.S./allies from a potential accidental/unauthorized launch of missile(s), not a massive attack. I'm not sure of the current command/control status in the former USSR but I imagine it has degraded somewhat since the end of the cold war with their financial difficulties.

In the scenario of an accidental launch of a missile, I would think the capability of destroying said missile before it caused massive loss of life would avert an escalation to full scale war.

60 billion would be well worth the cost in this situation, my wife and children deserve no less.



You're only as good as your last departure.
User currently offlineTbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7013 posts, RR: 26
Reply 22, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 792 times:

JETPILOT,

"One nuclear submarine has the potential to wipe every major city off the face of the earth...." ....and to sink a Japanese fishing boat and kill nine students.  Sad

Sorry, I was kinda upset when I heard about that.

Tzvika



NO URLS in signature
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 23, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 791 times:

I agree with JETPILOT. I don't think the United States would ever nuke someone on the first strike, unless it was a mistake.

BTW Tzvika: Stay online b/c I was going to email you.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineFlyBoeing From United States of America, joined May 2000, 866 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (13 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 780 times:

First off, $60 billion would be spent over ten or so years. That's not that expensive for the U.S military and could be achieved by a decent cost-cutter. I would hope that Bush gets a good one.

Second off, you CAN defend against terrorist strikes and it only costs a few billion for a country to get a defensive system in place. The US is already making overtures to turn the National Guard into the homeland defense force that it needs. Bioterrorism is a great risk.

It remains that there is only one threat that cannot be countered: ICBMs. There exists technology that can destroy cities with no counter attack. Deterrence works but it is morally inferior, I think, to defense. Deterrence works by holding citizens hostage to nuclear immolation; defense works by holding no one hostage.

And ya know what? Bush is doing exactly what I wanted him to do: cutting our offensive nuclear weapons arsenal and hopefully redirecting funds to defensive systems. Here's what he ought to do:

1) Get rid of every single land-based missile that the US operates. That's a couple billion in annual unnecesary expense. And in a first strike the missiles are vulnerable anyway. Rely on submarines.

2) Most of the tactical nuclear weapons architecture should be removed. Who needs air dropped weapons when you can just pop a nuclear Tomahawk at the enemy?

3) Accelerate the NMD, do it in high secrecy, and then flash deploy it. Every non-allied nation with nuclear missiles will hate us for doing it and we'd have to do it fast.


Second, I don't think we need to bother other countries for their missile tracking radars. The United States has already launched prototypes for the Space Based Laser system which uses six satellites and 18 relay satellites to destroy missiles as they lift off. Also we have the Brilliant Pebble killersat system that can destroy the missile in midcourse.Apparently the only sensor upgrade is to buy new DSP satellites (the kind that detected Scud launches) No biggie.



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