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Muslim Woman Sues For Veiled Driver License Photo  
User currently offlineAirworthy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5042 times:

Today a woman in Florida is suing for the right to wear her veil for her Florida driver's license. The woman became Muslim about 5 years ago and needs a car to drive her kids around.

The ACLU says she should be able to wear it due to her religious beliefs.

But where does the seperation of church and state begin? Should Florida make individual laws for each religion? Is the public safety at risk when it will be very easy to steal her license and use it for any other means? Is the public safety at risk when she's driving with the veil on?

Florida should watch out...Amnesty International is watching

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13649 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5026 times:
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The only conceivable problem with this woman's argument is that the need to have a full-face photo actually conforms to INTERNATIONAL standards, not just those of the United States or the State of Florida.

Having your face covered, fully or otherwise, cannot satisfy a condition of a card to be used as identification.




"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineCorocks From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1215 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5014 times:

This is just plain stupid. The purpose of a drivers license is a ID. What good is it if you cannot tell who it is.

User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

Another example of the fine men and women of the ACLU (and similar groups worldwide) and how they pervert justice and law to suit their narrowminded definition of "equal rights".
If I wear a fullface mask because I don't like my face it's not accepted either...



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineEric505 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 592 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

Take off the veil or don't drive.


Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life
User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4990 times:

Florida should watch out...Amnesty International is watching

Seriously, do you really think that the State of Florida really cares what AI thinks? Where was AI all those years Saddam was murdering people by the millions every year?

This whole case is just plain stupid. The whole purpose for a photo on your driver's license is for identification. If you can't see the person in it then the card is worthless. Like others have said, either take off the veil or don't drive.



"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4985 times:

Could someone who knows tell, werether such licence would be allowed in for example United Arab Emirates (or other nearby Arab countries where women are allowed to drive), or are there no photos required for driver IDs at all?

User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4955 times:

I lived in Dubai for nine years and we never had these problems. These people are trying to abuse the freedom given to them in the states (something they do NOT have in their own countries).


Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7961 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4930 times:

Where was AI all those years Saddam was murdering people by the millions every year?

Why don't you just visit http://www.amnesty.org to figure out what they did?
In brief: They informed governments around the globe that Hussein is one of the worse violator of human rights. But you have already said it:
Seriously, do you really think that the State of Florida really cares what AI thinks?
And it is not only Florida ... unfortunately.
Do you know that Bush Sr. jused AI's reports on Iraq to justify the former Gulf war?

And veiled/unveiled driver license photos simply do not fall within amnesty's mandate.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4923 times:

Hi there,
Well, I think this is kinda funny/weird.
How in the world can such a woman travel?
This is enough room for frauds to take place.
This veil thing is sure an extremist or even
perverted form of Islam.
Do they walk into banks like this and thru
airport security and checking in?

Marco, what do you mean their countries?
The lady in question is American, converted
a few years ago.

Regards,

Advanced


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4919 times:

As to AI, they lost all credibility with me a decade ago when they accused the Dutch government of mental torture of prison inmates.
The reason: they only had 20 channels of cable TV (at the time my parents at their house had no cable TV at all because the cable company refused to install it. They had a grand total of 6 channels on a large antenna bolted to the outside wall of the house).



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Yes, Jwenting, and if you'd look to AI report on Lithuania you'd see that police is supposedly tortuing people by putting on gas mask and blocking the breath chanells... I even could designate their source - there was once (maybe a year ago) an article about such a supposed tortue in a tabloid "Vakaro Žinios", which posts many bogus information - it told that major bank will bankrupt, that half of Lithuanian famous people are gays, that WW3 started (after sep 11), etc. It is funny that AI believes such sources. After that, I started not to look that seriously to them anymore when they talks about contitions in Saudi jails for example.

User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 12, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4908 times:

What do women do...
...in Iran?
...in Saudi Arabia?
...in other theocratic Muslim countries where they are allowed to drive?

Do they have to wear their veils for driver's license photos there?

redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineSonic From Lithuania, joined Jan 2000, 1670 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Redngold, this is what I was asking. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive, don't know about the laws elsewhere. Probably there are no pictures on drivers licences at all, just names?

User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7961 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Jwenting,

As to AI, they lost all credibility with me a decade ago when they accused the Dutch government of mental torture of prison inmates.
The reason: they only had 20 channels of cable TV.


I was an ai-member for some 12 or 14 years, I even teached mandatory questions for newbies as well as for "advanced" members but this never came to my attention.
I am really, really having a hard time believing this was an official stance of amnesty international.

AI's mandate bases on international declarations (first and foremostly the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). Granted, declarations provide room for different approaches and interpretations but there is no such thing like AI's very personal stance on human rights.

As those declarations do not say prisoners were entitled for cable TV, you won't find this line in AI's mandate either. Trust me.

I think this is either
- an urban legend or
- a fake ai-group published this hoax.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineFSPilot747 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 3599 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4901 times:

What nonsense. If you wanna drive, take the veil off. If you don't wanna take the veil off (which isn't required anyhow, just culture), then don't drive. Simple, clear cut. How can it be an ID card if the face isn't visible? Hope the state wins this one.


Cheers,
FSP

[Edited 2003-05-29 00:30:44]

User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

This case is actually just trying to create a divide. Here is the situation for some of the other arab nations

Saudi Arabia: Women aren't allowed to drive

Iran: Women wear a traditional Shadour, which does not cover the face.

Egypt: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

United Arab Emirates: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

Oman: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

Kuwait: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

Qatar: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

Bahrain: Women do not cover their face in I.D. pictures

Jordan: Women can drive if their faces are covered but do not cover their face in I.D. pictures


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7961 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Sonic,

(...) if you'd look to AI report on Lithuania you'd see that police is supposedly tortuing people by putting on gas mask and blocking the breath chanells... I even could designate their source - there was once (maybe a year ago) an article about such a supposed tortue in a tabloid "Vakaro Zinios", which posts many bogus information (...) It is funny that AI believes such sources.

Amnesty merely cited an European Committee rather than confirming the information:

The report of the first visit of the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) to Lithuania in February 2000 was made public in October 2001. (...) The report disclosed the following findings:
Alleged torture and ill-treatment -
police detention facilities and prisons
The CPT stated that, in comparison with past years, it appeared that there had been a marked improvement in the treatment of detainees by police in Lithuania. The CPT considered that, previously, instances of ill-treatment were more frequent and their severity greater, and included electro-shock torture, beatings on the soles of the feets and the insertion of needles under the nails. However, the CPT still found that ''... a significant proportion of the persons interviewed alleged that they had been ill-treated while in police custody''.(21) The alleged ill-treatment consisted mainly of slaps, punches, kicks and blows and mostly occurred before, during and after interrogation. Disturbingly, the CPT noted that ''[i]n certain cases, the ill-treatment alleged - e.g. partial suffocation by placing a rubber gas mask over the person's face and severe beating - could be qualified as torture.''(22) (...) It considered that the number and consistency of the allegations lent them credibility.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR010022002?open&of=ENG-LTU



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Jordan: Women can drive if their faces are covered

That's not true. Women do not have to cover their face to drive. It's a matter of choice, there is no rule that forces women to cover their face anywhere.



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

That's not true. Women do not have to cover their face to drive. It's a matter of choice, there is no rule that forces women to cover their face anywhere.
*****************

I was saying that they can drive with their faces covered, or uncovered, the point being that if they want them covered, it is ok to drive that way


User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11153 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4880 times:

I was saying that they can drive with their faces covered, or uncovered, the point being that if they want them covered, it is ok to drive that way

My apologies, I misunderstood.

The only country in the Middle East where women are forced to cover their face anywhere (whether driving or just in a public area such as in a restaurant) is Saudi Arabia.

In all other Arab countries, it's optional.

Regards



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4874 times:

Easy problem to solve, dont issue her a drivers license, driving is a priviledge not a right.


"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4864 times:

I say we send the ACLU the little digest of license photo rules that our friend Artsyman posted, and see whether they continue to pursue this matter.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineMarco From United Arab Emirates, joined Jul 2000, 4169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4859 times:

Marco, what do you mean their countries?
The lady in question is American, converted
a few years ago.


By this I mean Islamic countries (particularly Saudi Arabia where women can't even drive). On the other hand, other tolerant Islamic societies (particularly the UAE) require women to show their faces in order to obtain their ID. This is a question of security, and should not be compromised for any religion.



Proud to be an Assyrian!
User currently offlineAirAfrique From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 5 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

The catholic nuns are not allowed to wear veil on the head when taken photo ID.

I will not admit a law in a democratic country like the U.S. modified for any religion.
If she does not want to leave in US. She can freely go to live in Saudia Arabia.



25 Gocaps16 : You know, I've seen this happen on the road driving in DC. This lady, a muslim was driving her car by herself wearing a viel covering her whole face.
26 Artsyman : Marco, what do you mean their countries? The lady in question is American, converted a few years ago. *************** Yes, but her and her legal team
27 Post contains images MxCtrlr : Redngold, What do women do... ...in Iran? ...in Saudi Arabia? ...in other theocratic Muslim countries where they are allowed to drive? Do they have to
28 Kolobokman : Are women in US alowed to cover their hair for a picture? Becuse they are in Russia.
29 EA CO AS : Are women in US alowed to cover their hair for a picture? Becuse they are in Russia. But when someone's hair is covered, you can still see their face
30 Alpha 1 : Working the CLE-LGW flight a lot, I've noticed that even the most covered-up Arab woman has a Passport ID with their face showing. It's for obvious re
31 Airlinelover : This happened some years back as well.. This was an email that has gone around for a long time, about the other instance... IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS,
32 Alpha 1 : I agree with most of the sentiment in that, Chris, but my worry isn't how it's applied to a woman trying to get a drivers' license. I think we've take
33 L-188 : I hope this lady loses her case. The story is that when she originally went to get her Florida license the clerk screwed up and didn't make her take o
34 Flyboy36y : IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the t
35 Flyboy36y : By the way, I think this woman is crazy. She has no right to wear the veil....
36 Jwenting : This is some of the most disgusting stuff I have ever read. America is a nation of immigrants. We are anation of diversity. The notions that imingrant
37 N312RC : No it doesn't. Immigrants SHOULD adapt. If none did there would be no "US society" or "US culture" but only collection of individuals. IF something in
38 747-451 : Immigrants should adapt, at least in public when dealing with other US Citizens of other nationalities. Socieity can only conduct it's "Business" with
39 Post contains images NWA742 : I hope she loses. This idiot obviously thinks that driving is some kind of right for her, and not a privilege. And she further pushes it by acting lik
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