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Upcoming Rugby Internationals  
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1646 times:

This Saturday is the clash between New Zealand and England. Unsurprisingly, the antipodean press have written England off as no-hopers, although they've gone a bit quieter since the England A team crushed the New Zealand Maoris. So, who's going to win that one?

Scotland should have beaten South Africa in the first test, but didn't, Ireland were disappointing against Australia. The build up to the World Cup is on!


She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

I'm picking the All-Blacks. I still am gloating about Ireland over France a couple months ago.


Go big or go home
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Banco, dream on. No crowing in NZ press that I have seen, perhaps you could provide some links.

Let's get things in perspective. Maori's a team that rarely plays together and 27-9 is hardly 'crushed'.

Talk all you like but the bookies put it where it counts, NZ $1.37 - Eng. $2.90 to win. My money on England (not cause I think they will win, just that they aren't as bad as those odds say).

World Cup is NZ $2.20, Eng. $4.75 with Australia, France and S.A. all with lower money than England. Explain that.

This Saturday AB's by plus 10 but i will only get to listen on the radio if I'm lucky.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineAA61hvy From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 13977 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Well it sounds like England's side is real strong, how do they match physically?


Go big or go home
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Bunch of pasty white hoo-ray henries called Julian and Roddy VS. barefoot, post-cannibalism polynesians called Manu and Jo. You be the judge.


" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineNZ767 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 1620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1618 times:

I second that too.......I haven't seen anything in the press that implied England were going to be a walkover, simply because England vs NZ Maoris isn't that big of a deal here.

Having said that though, England thoroughly deserved to win that game.
Even for a new team, NZ Maoris were pathetic and a lot of their inexperience as a side showed.
Hopefully they'll bond together as a team soon.

At the same time, NZ thrashed England in the netball.
Maybe the girls need to teach the guys a few lessons.

As for upcoming AB vs England game?
NZ for sure!!  Smile


User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1611 times:

Netball? I didn't know we even had a team! Big grin

OK, it tends to be more the Australians rather than the Kiwis who dismiss England out of hand, although it does still happen. The example of that is how certain Australian fans keep going on about England being weak because they haven't won in Australia, yet forget that Australia have lost their last threee games against England at Twickenham. Sauce for the goose etc. Still, here's a link you might be interested in, and I'd be interested to hear your views.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/rugbyunion/comment/0,10070,973289,00.html

As for the Maori match, well they have a very strong record, and England did beat them very comfortably, have a look at some of the comments from the players and coach, and that was very much England's second team. They should have won by a much greater margin considering how much possession they had, but one thing we do lack in depth is good backs, in contrast to the forwards who are just a production line at the moment. The game itself isn't that important an indicator for this Saturday, since England won't play in the manner. It was just a good warm up from the perspective that the squad got off to a good start.

I do feel rather more confident about England's ability to beat Australia than New Zealand. This one could go either way, although I've read numerous comments on the message boards which just dismiss England as a side of any ability whatsoever, again more from Aussies than Kiwis. I find that really bizarre. It's fair enough to argue in support of your own side, but three consecutive defeats for the Wallabies should at least make them recognise that the red rose is not completely inept.  Big grin And yet, I do often read the view that England are just a boring powerhouse with no flair whatsoever. I'll freely admit that both the All Blacks and the Wallabies do have better backs than England, but it's been 5 or 6 years since England just relied on forward power and kicks to win. Indeed, when they last beat Australia, it was the Aussie tactic of constantly giving away penalties to prevent England scoring that dictated the nature of the scoreline.

I think Saturday is going to be close.






She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1608 times:

At the moment the 2 top sides in the world are clearly England and New Zealand. England would beat the Aussies no problem, would crush South Africa, and would beat France. Against the All Blacks in the 'cake tin' it will be close though. I go AB by 5 points


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1601 times:

An interesting New Zealand article about the reaction to England:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2537129a6100,00.html



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

Banco that story is from the Sunday News which makes the UK Sun look almost intellectual so make of that what you will.

The general negativity you mention regard English teams is not limited to just rugby but this is so for a good reason. Others may want to correct me but I always see English teams as almost deluded about their abilites and then grade AAA excuse makers when surprise, surprise they don't win.

If anyone lives permanently in the past it is English sport. Do they seriously think they have a hope in hell of winning the world cup in Rugby, cricket or football. No one else does so we just enjoy the regular reminders of your mediocrity.

PS the Guardian article says England have only beaten the AB'as once outside the UK. That is incorrect, they have NEVER beaten the AB's outside the UK.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

Having lived in both Australia and England, I kind of concur with what Pacificjourney is saying - the Brits do overstate their abilities, but the difference with the current England rugby side is that it is the best English team ever, and we do genuinely have a chance at the World Cup (as long as the boys don't over hype themselves and treat it as a cakewalk). I still think the All Blacks will win the cup - but they will be run close by England. Australia wouldn't have a hope in hell against a full strength England on form - but then the All Blacks are pretty handy at the moment too. But this is one of those rare moments when English sports fans should believe the hype for once. How much they should believe it will be seen after the ALl Blacks match on Saturday. I fancy the AB to nick it but equally England could end up annihilating them. It depends how 'safe' England want to play - but In Ben Cohen, Jonny Wilkinson and Jason Robinson they have 3 of the best attacking players in the world - so it's not all boring.


I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

Check your history books, Pacificjourney. 1973 was when England beat the All Blacks in New Zealand. Not a great record, I agree, but then NZ pre-eminence means that very few sides have beaten them over the years. This England team have an excellent chance, but to suggest that anyone in England believes it will be a cakewalk is some way wide of the mark. Perhaps a belief that it will be a cakewalk for New Zealand is an example of the kind of arrogance of which you are accusing England?  Big grin

As for the Sunday News, I accept your point, I'm not too up on New Zealand newspapers.

As for making excuses, well to be honest I see more of that from the southern hemisphere. When England beat New Zealand at Twickenham it was apparently because New Zealand sent over a weakened side (funny how that excuse doesn't seem to apply to England's "tour from hell" in 1998), or the three successive wins over Australia have all been lucky, due to biased refereeing, cheating, Jonny Wilkinson's boot etc. You have a point with regards to some sports, I would admit, particularly English football, but with rugby I would suggest the boot is rather on the other foot.

I do not for one second believe that England are going to smash New Zealand and Australia, I'm not even convinced they'll win, but they do have a chance as they're a very good team. However, try reading the readers comment pages on the likes of RugbyHeaven, and you'll see numerous Aussies, and (admittedly somewhat fewer) fewer Kiwis predicting 30-40 point wins over England.




She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1585 times:

The only thing I am sure of is that I WON'T see this game so I curse you all with a boring match.

We could go back and forth with who whines the most but ask yourself who has had the MUCH greater need to be making the excuses ... there is your answer.

Oh, and think cricket ... enough said. Listening to the BBC you would think England had won the world cup by beating Zimbabwe (wow, Zimbabwe). Apparently yet another beginning of a new golden age of English sport ???



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1580 times:

How come you won't be watching it Pacificjourney? You're an All Blacks fan aren't you? Aren't they showing it where you are?

As for who is making excuses, well, to answer your question I would say recently it has been Australia and New Zealand! I grant you, England have toured all too rarely down under, but they've had the best of it over here in recent years. Prior to that, we just weren't good enough, end of story. I guess Will Carling was probably guilty of excuse making, but in truth he got a hrd time over that here as well. Objectively speaking, it can only be good for the game that the New Zealand/Australia hegemony is now being challenged by England and France. In reality, England, with their much greater resources should have reached this stage years ago, but anyway, it will be intriguing to see how far they have come. Of course, provided it is close, it will set up the World Cup beautifully

Interesting comment about the BBC and the cricket. Most of the print media have been lamenting the dire display by Zimbabwe and rather than congratulating England have been saying how they would have had to have been truly awful not to despatch them so quickly. Quite true of course, but they can only beat what is in front of them, so I guess they're on a hiding to nothing really. Even so, the South Africa series will be far more interesting.




She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1575 times:

Hurrah ! It seemed that no they don't show that stuff in Japan but I know people and it seems I will be watching it live after all, curse retracted.

3.45 in the afternoon which is difficult work-wise so that nagging flu looks like making a comeback .......

" ... it can only be good for the game that the New Zealand/Australia hegemony is now being challenged by England and France. "

You see this is what I am talking about. Win a game or 2 and you think England actually rate, they don't ! Win,win, win for 10 years or more and then I will be impressed.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1573 times:

Actually - that's wrong Pacificjourney. England rate now because currently they are ranked no 1 in the world and have a very strong team. By your logic, the All Black's could put 15 poodles in their side and still be considered great because of what they have done over the years!

At the end of the day, the Southern Hemisphere superpowers have been reduced to 2 (South Africa are garbage and England stuck 50 points on them a couple of months back) and of the 2 left only the AB's realistically could hope to beat England to the World Cup trophy. That is in the here and now - forget how England fared in the past - on current form they are as good as anyone.



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1572 times:

Ryan you have been reading too many newspapers. Look at what the bookies say and England are way back in the pack, not even close to Australia.

... and yes the AB's do have some laurels they could rest on for a few years yet if they wanted to. Not so England.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineRyanb741 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 3221 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1572 times:

Well, UK bookies make England 2nd favourites after the AB's. Different bookies give different prices depending on who is betting on what. As England are ranked no 1 in the world theoretically they ought to win it - if it was held in England they almost certainly would but in the Aussie climate I think they lose a bit of competitiveness.

Anyway there is not much point you and I saying who is going to do what to who - after the game on Saturday more will be apparent. Maybe the AB's will slaughter England after all. We will soon see.....



I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1567 times:

So let me get this straight, Pacificjourney. Despite England winning their last five games against southern hemisphere opposition, you don't believe that they are "challenging" southern hemisphere hegemony?  Wow! Come off it, of course they are? Are they better than New Zealand and Australia? I don't know really, the games over the next couple of weeks will give us an indication as to how good they are. But your refusal to even countenance the idea that England might have a half decent side is precisely what I am talking about. Southern hemisphere bods seem to just blank out memories of their own defeats and carry on telling everyone that they are the greatest.

I am not foolish enough to believe England's No. 1 rating, it is irrelevant anyway, but this England team are deserving of more respect than anyone down there appears willing to give them. Let me ask you this, in the apparently  Big grin extremely unlikely event that England should turn the All Blacks over on Saturday, what are you going to say? Are you going to come out and say "well, OK,m England are a pretty good side after all" or are you going to make excuses. Or, to take it further, are you saying that there is absolutely no way England will ever beat them? Because it is that kind of attitude that tends to win people up, so I hope I'm mis-reading what you are saying.

As for bookies odds, they do not offer odds based on what they believe the outcome will be, they offer them based on the way people will bet. No surprise in that England are low down the pecking order there, it seems to me that England could defeat the Borg and it's be dismissed.



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlinePacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2734 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1566 times:

Bookies odds initially reflect what the bookies believe will happen so the 'experts' don't see it your way.

You rave about 5 games (at home BTW) but as I said above, be dominant for at least 10 years (like the AB's) and then we might think of being impressed. Till then your just flavour of the week.

I recall we were going to put a bet on the WC, time to put up.



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlineBanco From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 14752 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Oh, indeed, I hadn't forgotten. We've a bit of time yet though and of course this match will be a marvellous warm-up for it, whichever way it goes, unless of course one side annihilates the other, and I can't see that happening either way. Of course, whoever loses will be thirsting for revenge when/if they play each other again, which is what makes it such a riveting prospect.

No, bookies base odds on what people will bet on, not what the outcome will be. Hence in New Zealand, people will noty bet on England, so the odds are longer. Simple as that. It's the same here, in most sports England are strong favourites with the bookies, purely because patriotic money goes on them, they have to seriously outclassed (i.e. England v Australia at cricket) before that is not the case.

I'm not "raving" about five games, far from it. This match will be extremely difficult for England, and I really think it could go either way. Nor do I believe that England beating Australia, New Zealand and South Africa in turn last autumn makes them the best side in the world. All I'm saying is that it is some evidence that they're not completely hopelsss, and times have changed a little from the regular poundings they used to get from all the Tri-Nations teams.

They're not a "great" team by any means. As you say, they'll have to deliver over an extended period and win a World Cup, but there does seem to be an attitude about that England are in reality useless, merely because they've always been useless - which is a little harsh anyway, but certainly they've been less good than your lot!  Big grin



She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
User currently offlineSaintsman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2002, 2065 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1558 times:

On the subject of Rugby, I came across this:

IRB Rugby World Cup 2003

Following complaints made to the IRB about the All Blacks being motivated
by performing the 'Haka' before their games, other nations were asked to
suggest pre-match rituals of their own.

The IRB Rugby World Cup 2003 Organising Committee has now agreed to the
following displays:

A. The England team will chat about the weather and where they are going
on holiday after the tournament, wave hankies in the air and
attach bells to their ankles before moaning about how they invented the
game, and gave it to the world, and how it's not fair that everyone can
beat them now. Failing that they will see what the Americans are doing and join
in.

B. The Scotland team will chant "You lookin' at me Jimmy?" before smashing
an Irn Bru bottle over their opponents heads.

C. The Ireland team will split into two, with the Southern half performing
a Riverdance, while the Northerners march the Traditional route from their
dressing room to the pitch, via their opponents dressing room.

D. Unfortunately the Committee were unable to accept the Welsh suggestion
following representations from the RSPCA.

E. Argentina will unexpectedly invade a small part of opposition territory,
claim it as their own "Las In-Goals-Areas" and then be forcibly removed by
the England team.

F. Two members of the South African team will claim to be more important
than the other 13 whom they will coral between the posts whilst they claim
the rest of the pitch for themselves.

G. The Americans will not attend until almost full time. In future years
they will amend the records to show that they were in fact the most
important team in the tournament and Hollywood will make a film called
'Saving No.8 Lyle'.

H. Five of the Canadian team will sing La Marsaillaise and hold the rest of
the team to ransom.

I. The Italian team will arrive in red penis-substituting cars, sexually
harass the female stewards and then run away.

J. The Spanish will sneak into the other half of the pitch, mow it and then
claim that it was all in line with European "grass quotas". They will then
curl up under the posts and have a kip until half time, when their appeal
for compensation against the UK Government will be heard.

K. The Japanese will attempt to strengthen their team by offering good
salaries to the key opposition players (over 35) and then run around the
pitch at high speed in a highly efficient manner before buying the ground
(with a subsidy from the UK Government).

L. The French will declare they have new scientific evidence that the
opposition are in fact all mad. They will then park lorries across the
half-way line, let sheep loose in the opposition half (much to the delight
of Wales!) and burn the officials. However the French may not attend the
World Cup at all as it involves the deployment of Frenchmen for violent
physical activity in another part of the world.

M. The Australians will have a barbie before negotiating lucrative singing
and TV contracts in the UK. They will then invite all their mates to come
and live with them in Shepherds Bush.


User currently offlineTrident3 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 1013 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 1546 times:

The Hakka and what it really means:

Ringa pakia
(Slap my hands against your thighs)
Uma tiraha
(Puff out your chest)
Turi whatia
(Bend over and touch your toes)
Hope whai ake
(Let Mr winkie follow)
Waewae takahia kia kino
(Stamp the feet as hard as you can)
Ka mate! Ka mate!
(It is heaven!, It is heaven!)
Ka ora! Ka ora!
(Don't be shy!)
Ka mate! Ka mate!
(Touch my bum)
Ka ora! Ka ora!
(We are the cheeky girls)
Tenei Te Tangata Puhuruhuru
(We are the cheeky girls)
Nana i tiki mai whakawhiti te ra
(Touch my bum)
Upane, Upane
(This is life)
Upane, Kaupane
(Up to the top)
Whiti te ra
(Touch my bum!)



"We are the warrior race-Tough men in the toughest sport." Brian Noble, Head Coach, Great Britain Rugby League.
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