Qb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2050 posts, RR: 5 Posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 14451 times:
According to the Physicians for a National Health Program (PNHP - http://www.pnhp.org), the number one cause of personnel bankruptcy in the US is the high cost of healthcare.
Here's a few highlights of the article in "Le Devoir" newspaper.
An American national healthcare program should be modeled on the Canadian and British systems
According to Robert LeBow, president of PNHP, the USA is the only developed country where an entire family could end up in the streets if one of its member gets sick
41 millions Americans have no healthcare coverage at all, while many millions have only limited coverage
The Canadian system is not perfect, especially with its waiting lists. But, its infant mortality rate is lower, life expectancy is greater and that, at cost 1/2 what it is in the USA, per capita
In the USA, 26% of the costs of healthcare go into bureaucracy. In Canada, it's only 10%. With this same efficiency, the USA would save $200 billions a year
According to the WHO, the USA have the 37th "best" healthcare in the world, 2 ranks before Cuba
DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 28 Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14404 times:
Thanks, you can keep your national healthcare. I like my private plan and I don't need Howard Dean telling me who my doctor will be or how my healthcare will work.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
ModernArt From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 305 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 14402 times:
America's high cost of medicine is directly related to our litigious nature and an overly bureaucratic government.
No thanks Canada, we (at least I, myself) aren't interested in your "superior" healthcare. BTW, it's really rather hard to compare infant mortality rates between our two nations. Geographically and population-wise - they are too dis-similar.
LOT767-300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 8685 posts, RR: 36 Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14380 times:
Qb001: Now go check what the tax rates are...then we can start debating.
Lindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3039 posts, RR: 17 Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14379 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
Well, it sounds like an excellent idea to me. Why should any American citizen, especially children or seniors be deprived of some basic level of health care? The only trick is to create a national health care system that would work and not cost too much (and therefore it probably shouldn't be modelled on the British system!). I don't really mind the idea of paying a little more in taxes to ease other people's suffering. I have plenty of friends and even family members working lousy jobs that don't offer health benefits.
For those of you who oppose national healthcare, may I ask why? I'm not trying to score political points, but rather that I'm just curious.
It is that any national healthcare plan is bound to be a poorly-run mess?
Is it that you don't want to give up the plan you have now?
Is it that you just oppose big government in general?
Is it that you oppose the higher taxes necessary to pay for nationalized healthcare?
Is it that you don't really give a damn about people without healthcare?
Is it that you distrust anything that smacks of socialism?
Trvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 29 Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14374 times:
While the idea of national healthcare is theoretically tempting, personally I don't think that it could work in the United States. I believe our country is simply too large for a nationalized system. Granted, many large countries, such as Japan (127 million people) Germany (82 million), Great Britain (60 million), France (55 million), Canada (31 Million), and Australia (19 million) have national healthcare. But all of these countries' systems are under immense pressure, and presently Germany and France are considering drastic reductions of their programs, much to the consternation of their citizens.
Now, the United States has 291 million people, more than twice the largest country with national healthcare. If we were to implement a national system, it would put an unacceptable strain on our country's budget, and our economy.
Perhaps a solution, therefore, is to provide limited healthcare for families with a yearly income below a certain amount (25K maybe?). This option, too, is fraught with problems (the middle class wouldn't be too happy about it), but hey, anything could happen.
CoRocks From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1142 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14363 times:
8,000 Doctors want national healthcare...big deal. As of 2000, there were 598,000 doctors in the US. So that's only 1.3% of doctors want National healthcare. Not so good of an argument anymore.
B757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 30 Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14355 times:
The group of 7,782 physicians is led by Marcia Angell, former editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, and former Surgeons General Julius Richmond and David Satcher.
The physicians signing onto the article account for less than 1 percent of the 813,770 physicians in the United States as of 2000, according to the AMA.
So, .95% of doctors in this country call for socialized medicine and suddenly the entire medical establishment is for it.
Personally I'd be wary of trusting any of the doctors dumb enough to sign such a petition. I don't think they have the brains to be practicing medicine.
Hillary-Care died in Congress by an overwhelming majority and it is staying dead for the foreseeable future.
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 53 Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 14345 times:
KROC From United States of America, joined May 2000, 19737 posts, RR: 83 Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14333 times:
I haveto pay for my health care 777236ER. I work my ass off so I can have such things. A nice car, money to spend on a good time, pay my bills, have health insurance. Why should I be saddled with paying someone else's insurance bill as well?
"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again"
DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 28 Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14332 times:
45 million people in the US don't have healthcare.
Yes, that is correct. And there are also about 245 million Americans that do have healthcare. I agree with Trvlr's proposition that something needs to be done for impoverished and/or unemployed families that do not have access to healthcare.
Unlike most of the political left in this country, I do not believe that the way to provide healthcare for those who currently lack it is for the federal government to take over the entire healthcare system in our country.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12959 posts, RR: 56 Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14334 times:
I haveto pay for my health care 777236ER. I work my ass off so I can have such things. A nice car, money to spend on a good time, pay my bills, have health insurance. Why should I be saddled with paying someone else's insurance bill as well?
Are you honestly saying a homeless guy should be left to die of cancer simply because he can't afford treatment? Is it right that so many Americans don't have healthcare?
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 53 Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14325 times:
Are you honestly saying a homeless guy should be left to die of cancer simply because he can't afford treatment?
JAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14320 times:
Is it right that the majority opinion prevails? I believe that even you are a fan of democracy and generally speaking, most Americans do not want socialized healthcare. Sorry.
KROC From United States of America, joined May 2000, 19737 posts, RR: 83 Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14321 times:
Life freakin' sucks doesn't it?
I guess you would prefer that hard working people scraping by barely having their own health coverage should be footing the bill for the homeless as well. Tell that to a family where both parents work, and and at least one of the parents work TWO jobs just so they can get by. If they can bust ass to scrape out a living, tell me why they should be paying for Henry Homeless.
"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again"
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12959 posts, RR: 56 Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14319 times:
Yes.
That's HIS problem.
So government isn't there to serve the people? Government is just there to serve the rich?
I guess you would prefer that hard working people scraping by barely having their own health coverage should be footing the bill for the homeless as well. Tell that to a family where both parents work, and and at least one of the parents work TWO jobs just so they can get by. If they can bust ass to scrape out a living, tell me why they should be paying for Henry Homeless.
In the UK everyone gets free healthcoverage. From poor families to Richard Branson to homeless people.
Doesn't the state exist to look after its citizens?
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 53 Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14313 times:
I stand behind my statement and sentiments. The governments sole purpose is to provide law, order, and protection from hostile forces. Nothing else. It shouldn't be there to serve ANYONE INCLUDING the rich.
Schoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 37 Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14311 times:
B757300:
" Personally I'd be wary of trusting any of the doctors dumb enough to sign such a petition. I don't think they have the brains to be practicing medicine."
At least these doctors show they have one important thing all doctors should have: they care about the well-being of other people, patients or not. In this case, 45 million of them.
I really don't understand why such a modern country as the US hasn't got a National Health Care System. In Spain they now have a pretty good system. And if I don't like the doctor I get assigned I just ask for another one! Doctors and surgeons working for the Spanish National Health Care are as competent as non National Health Care doctors.
My father recently had a major (urgent) operation and had to spend 7 days in hospital afterwards. Total costs (I asked): +8,000 Euros; the operation alone was +5,000 Euros. He didn't have to pay a (euro-)cent, all covered by the State. The 'funny' thing is that my uncle who lives in the US had a similar operation a few years ago, only a few months after he retired. He had to pay for the operation and all the other costs himself. Needless to say his plans of 'things-to-do-when-retired' were seriously affected.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
777236ER From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 12959 posts, RR: 56 Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14304 times:
The governments sole purpose is to provide law, order, and protection from hostile forces. Nothing else. It shouldn't be there to serve ANYONE INCLUDING the rich.
Law order and protection?
So the government should have nothing to do with roads? Nothing to do with air travel? Nothing to do with power generation? Nothing to do with disaster relief?
The government exists to serve its citizens, it's not just there to protect you from "hostile forces".
DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 28 Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14306 times:
I can't say I agree with folks like Matt D and KROC.
The inability to conceptualize problems that plague not just individuals but all of society is one of the most tragic things that has evolved from far right conservatism in America.
45 million Americans without healthcare is definitely a problem that EVERY American should worry about.
However, 290 million Americans forced to pay higher taxes and submit to a government health care program is NOT the way to fix the problem.
I'm a conservative, but I'm not a jerk.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
Matt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 53 Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 14302 times:
All of that exists under "order".
He didn't have to pay a (euro-)cent, all covered by the State.
And where do you suppose THAT money came from? 777236ER's ass?
25 EA CO AS: Ask those same 8,000 doctors how they feel about doubling their workload, halving their pay, and then see how many still want nationalized healthcare.
26 JAL777: I find this funny. Most Americans DO NOT WANT socialized healthcare... why should the government do something that the constituency does not want? Mos
27 777236ER: All of that exists under "order". So doesn't the health of citizens exist under "order"? If the government is expected to pay for the maintence of roa
28 KROC: However, 290 million Americans forced to pay higher taxes and submit to a government health care program is NOT the way to fix the problem. I agree wi
29 777236ER: I find this funny. Most Americans DO NOT WANT socialized healthcare... why should the government do something that the constituency does not want? Mos
30 777YYC: It still boggles my mind why anyone would even dream of having a system that bases level of care on level of income. Everyone has the same right to ad
31 Alpha 1: Everyone has the same right to adequate treatment, no ifs ands or buts. It is NOT a right to get free healthcare on the backs of people like me, or ot
32 KROC: But if someone can't afford it, I shouldn't have to pay for it ,either. And for the first time in a long time, me and Alpha 1 see eye to eye on someth
33 Matt D: It still boggles my mind why anyone would even dream of a system that bases level of care on level of income. Everyone has the same right to adequate
34 Scorpio: Are you honestly saying a homeless guy should be left to die of cancer simply because he can't afford treatment? Yes. That's HIS problem. This has to
35 Matt D: It is if they are expecting ME to pay for it. Thank you for your insight and heartfelt opinions.
36 777236ER: Why? So would it be reasonable to use your logic and apply it to-say-housing and cars as well? Healthcare is a fundamental human right. Denying people
37 JAL777: IMHO Exactly! Why force your opinion on others?
38 Scorpio: Exactly! Why force your opinion on others? What? You don't think receiving medical treatment when you are sick is a right? Do you believe that, becaus
39 L-188: Doesn't the state exist to look after its citizens? No it doesn't. Seriously there is a reason why health care in the US is bad. Everybody thinks that
40 EA CO AS: Healthcare is a fundamental human right. No, it's not. Neither is housing, food, water, color TV, etc.
41 Omegous: This whole idea that only high paying jobs provides good, high quality health care is CRAP. I worked at COMPUSA for 3 years..full time...pulling a cra
42 Donder10: I worked at COMPUSA for 3 years..full time...pulling a crappy $7 an hour...they had an excellent MEDICAL INSURANCE that cost me very little. But after
43 Alpha 1: Healthcare is a fundamental human right. It isn't, it never has been, and it never should be a "fundamental" human right. It's desirable, but it's not
44 MD-90: Nowhere in the Bill or Rights does it say that Americans are guaranteed the right to "free" healthcare. You may feel that it's a basic human right, to
45 N79969: One word in that press release blew this idea out of the water right away from an economic viewpoint: "single-payer." I.e. Monopsony. Monopsony create
46 MD-90: Here's a solution: http://www.freecongress.org/commentaries/030813PW.asp The important parts are in bold. Reducing The Number Of Uninsured By Millions
47 Alpha 1: What the bill will do is permit small business owners to form national alliances, Association Health Plans (AHPs), through their trade or business ass
48 N79969: That's quite the book you posted MD-90. I suggest pithy comments next time around. There are two real straightforward fixes that would begin to solve
49 Jcs17: Are you honestly saying a homeless guy should be left to die of cancer simply because he can't afford treatment? Is it right that so many Americans d
50 Scorpio: And many Canadians die of cancer because they are not able to recieve timely care or medical attention for their affliction thanks to nationalized hea
51 Jcs17: The bottom line is that nationalized health care is a bad idea for all involved--those who can afford it as it is today, and those who cannot. The res
52 Alpha 1: The rest of the world disagrees. That doesn't mean they're right, Scorpio. On this one, the U.S. shouldn't just do what the rest of the world does. If
53 N79969: The thing to remember that most European countries with national health care systems have populations smaller than that of New York City and are demog
54 Schoenorama: Matt D: "And where do you suppose THAT money came from? 777236ER's ass?" Honestly, I don't know what 777236ER's ass has got to do with my fathers' ope
55 N79969: "This whole idea that many people have that they don't want Nationalized Health Care because they don't want to pay for someone else's health-care is
56 Qb001: I'm glad this post has sparkled such a debate. And I must say that most of the arguments I've read opposing a national healthcare system are full of b
57 Alpha 1: We SHARE the cost now. Under a nationalized plan, it won't change the fact that a certain amount of people CANNOT PAY FOR ANY OF THAT HEALTH CARE. So,
58 Jamesag96: I don't need to re-hash what I think because as luck would have it I am in complete agreement with Alpha 1 on this one. Add to that the U.S. is too po
59 Scorpio: So, who is that left to? Me, and others that are already insured, and who DO pay at least co-pays for visits and prescriptions and the like. And that'
60 Alpha 1: Question: Which is less 'right'? Letting a poor person with cancer DIE because he cannot afford the cure, or paying for a little piece of his treatmen
61 Scorpio: When it comes to MY family, and MY health that HAS to come first, Scorpio. That was not the question. You're avoiding having to answer the question, i
62 Keesje: I think one of the main things is solidarity. I'm healthy & proud to pay for people you can't pay for basic healthcare themselves. IMO its part of be
63 Qb001: Under a nationalized plan, it won't change the fact that a certain amount of people CANNOT PAY ANY THAT HEALTH CARE. So, who is that left to? Me, and
64 Schoenorama: N79969: "But I do not pay anyone else's insurance premiums." But you'd pay a fixed premium, not taking into consideration the fact that you smoke, tha
65 N79969: Qb001, 1% of U.S. physicians are an insignificant number. That some of those physicans (three?) are prominent does not make that figure significant. Y
66 EA CO AS: The Bible is full of caring about other people True, although I defy you to show me a passage that shows healers being compensated by the State to car
67 Schoenorama: N79969: My father used to be a director of a (large) insurance company, hence my knowlegde of how insurances, either private or national, basically wo
68 Qb001: There are legions of very-well informed physicians, health care economists, and public policy experts that would agree that single-payer systems are n
69 Alpha 1: Besides, your family WOULD be covered. So that argument makes little sense. I'm covered NOW. Under this plan, I would have pay for covering someone wh
70 AC320: Sigh, I'm torn on this issue. I would like to see everyone have access to affordable healthcare, but as someone who hopes to be practicing medicine, I
71 Ralgha: I'm not taking sides on this, but I would like to point out one thing to Alpha 1. According to what other people have said, under the national plan, y
72 Alpha 1: ...as someone who hopes to be practicing medicine, I'd also want to be paid appropriately for my services and the years of education they cost. Sorry,
73 Lstc: Funny how the overwhelming amount of those Americans in this thread are opposed to national universally available healthcare system. Too bad we can't
74 Lstc: Oh yah... P.S. Alpha1, if you actually think that the US doesn't subscribe to "socialized" medicine, then think again. More tax dollars per captia go
75 Alpha 1: I certainly can't understand how any developed nation can ignore the undeniable fact that a healthy population is a productive one. How "healthy" will
76 N79969: Schoenorama, I stated that I agree that I do pay for the health care of others via my premiums. However I do not buy insurance for that reason. I buy
77 N79969: The reason why the US spends so much more on health care relative to other countries is medical inflation caused by an old tax policy and third payer
78 Scorpio: I'm covered NOW. Under this plan, I would have pay for covering someone who I don't even know. Which is exactly what you are doing now. but I should N
79 AC320: Not exactly off the deepend, other costs such as insurance are eating huge chunks of doctors' salaries in the USA. As with any field there is a wide r
80 Qb001: Alpha, What can I say, except that I have the strong feeling that you didn't read? But I'm patient and I don't easily give up. So I'll take another sh
81 NoUFO: I still don't know if it's a good idea to join and I don't even feel bored, well ... Reply #8:Trvlr, Germany does NOT have a National Healthcare compa
82 Qb001: N79969, You did not substantiate any of your claims, you only reiterate rhetoric, such as with this line: Governments are less efficient at providing
83 N79969: Qb001, Try visiting a VA hospital in the US. Compare that to virtually any private facility. Try comparing a DMV to virtually any for-profit service f
84 EA CO AS: It does bother me that over 40 millions Americans, even more maybe, have no decent access to healthcare. What you don't understand is that they DO hav
85 Schoenorama: Alpha1: " Uh, excuse me, but I have life insurance, so my family is protected. Don't tell me I should pay life insurance for someone else now?" You ar
86 CaptainStabbin: I used to work as a healthcare cost analyst in Canada and I know that system pretty well from the inside. What I see here is a lot of hype and myth ab
87 Qb001: CaptainStabbin, It is true that life expectancy is not the tell all statistic, but all studies comparing healthcare systems used that statistic. The W
88 CaptainStabbin: QB001: It's nice to see that you know how you use the bold HTML code to fortify your point since you have difficulty doing so without. I never claimed
89 Scorpio: While we're at it, captain, you might notice that the words Qb001 puts in bold are your words. You might also notice how he always uses bold code for
90 Jaysit: "I have to pay for my health care 777236ER" Well, you probably pay for all of it if you are self-employed. Are you? Otherwise, your employer foots mos
91 N79969: Qb001, You (and 777236ER) are the last people on the planet that should be telling anyone to get off a high horse. You actually believe that you are a
92 CaptainStabbin: Scorpio: Qb001 should be old enough of a man to speak for himself. Nice to know he has a "buddy" looking out for him though. He should thank you for y
93 Scorpio: Qb001 should be old enough of a man to speak for himself. Nice to know he has a "buddy" looking out for him though. He should thank you for your suppo
94 Schoenorama: CaptainStabbin: "Secondly, life expectancy, infant mortality rate, etc. has absolutely nothing to do with everyone being universally covered." It has
96 EA CO AS: I'd say that so far, CaptainStabbin seems to be as close to an "expert" on the differences between the U.S. and Canadian healthcare systems as we've g
97 Scorpio: Read it...what is your point? That Qb001 is not telling anyone to get off their high horse. He's reacting to Captainstabbin, who told him to get off h
98 Qb001: N79969, Scorpio's point is that the call to get off high-horses is not mine. I was quoting CaptainStabbin. It reveals a lot about your willingness to
99 N79969: Qb001, It reveals nothing really. After all you and 236ER have consistently assumed moral superiority and used that as a (specious) basis to support y
100 CaptainStabbin: Scorpio, so you're joining the "mind-reading" game now, are you? :- Why should you care what I say to Qb001? Why such a hasty defense? By the way, I d
101 Lstc: I should NOT have to pay more to cover someone outside my family. Period. That's funny! When you pay insurance premiums, its no different than paying
102 L-188: I love how people claim that poor can't get health coverage. Show me one hospital ER in the US that can leagaly turn somebody away for ability to pay.
103 EA CO AS: EA CO AS: I don’t consider myself an expert – far from it. But I am familiar with the workings of healthcare costs and economics as I worked and d
104 StarAC17: Has anyone on this thread seen the movie John Q. If that movie shows with any accuracy how the heath care system is run in the US it is corrupt and sc
105 PHX-LJU: StarAC17 wrote: "A big issue in Ontario with the National heath care is the wait which is a downside to the system so what if in America if you could
106 Qb001: To all of those who opposed a national healthcare program initiative and have tried to derail this debate in futile arguments, How do you explain that
107 MD-90: Insurance companies are starting to charge people more if they're overweight, because obesity is very clearly show to be horribly detrimental to one's
108 StarAC17: Insurance companies are starting to charge people more if they're overweight, because obesity is very clearly show to be horribly detrimental to one's
109 Alpha 1: You are paying life insurance for somebody else. I'm paying it to protect my family, and other people do the same thing-to protect THEIR family, not s
110 StarAC17: When in doubt, take from the military. So you want to diminish one area of our country-the military-and affect it's ability to defend the U.S., by thr
111 Alpha 1: If I was in charge of the US treasury. I wouldn't do this either. I don't think money is the issue with US healthcare. Then why did you thorugh out th
112 StarAC17: If I was in charge of the US treasury. I wouldn't do this either. I don't think money is the issue with US healthcare. I intended it as a suggestion i
113 Qb001: Nobody answered my questions? I think it pretty much put an end the debate then.
114 Alpha 1: How do you explain that 40 million Americans have no coverage? It's because they don't have jobs that provide health care, and can't afford it on thei
115 Qb001: Fair enough. Then a sub-question is: how do you explain that the US is the only advanced country (say member of OECD) to show such a bad performance,
116 Alpha 1: Fair enough. Then a sub-question is: how do you explain that the US is the only advanced country (say member of OECD) to show such a bad performance,
117 L-188: The other thing to consider is that the US already runs two fully subsidized health care systems. The BIA hospitals and the VA hospitals. Neither syst
118 Alpha 1: Excellent point, L-188. Maybe nationalized health care is for some of you in Canada and Europe. Fine with us, and no hard feelings. But it's not for u
119 N79969: StarAC17, Even in Canada, health care is not free although you may have low deductibles. The costs manifest themselves in other than pecuniary forms.
120 Qb001: You want to drown this debate in an ocean of out-of-touch economic theories. I'm not an economist, but I know that spending 14% of GNP for a healthcar
121 Alpha 1: And the reason is that you get a plasma screen only if you put the money to get it. Then how is health care different? If you don't have the money, wh
122 Qb001: Alpha, Are you tired or something? Read my post, as it clearly explains why health is not a commodity...
123 Ctbarnes: Having worked in health care administration for 10 years before joining the Jesuits, let me clarify a few points: Government is already a major player
124 CaptainStabbin: N79979, The guy can't make some argument without abandoning his snide and condescending tone. He'll never get off his high horse. So, it's best to avo
125 N79969: Qb001, The fact that you may not understand those economic theories does not make them "out-of-touch." Whatever that means. Perhaps the Swedish Royal
126 Qb001: N79969, Yeah, whatever. The day you'll be able to supply ANY kind of FACT to support the idea that the US healthcare system is not the worst of all in
127 N79969: Qb001, The fact is that I will not buy any study that rates Japanese health delivery system better than that of the US. Agreed. I do not know about ot
128 Qb001: CaptainStabbin, The guy can't make some argument without abandoning his snide and condescending tone. Invective only honours its author. - K'ung-fu-tz
130 Qb001: N79969, "Yeah, whatever" is my way of brushing away your "economic theories" as totally useless to support any of your point. And I'm really sorry tha
131 Qb001: CaptainStabbin, You guessed that all by yourself? Gee, did you study rocket science?
132 CaptainStabbin: No, smartguy. But I can tell it wasn't your major either. But hey, if obscure quotes from long-dead philosophers are needed to boost your ego, all the
133 Matt D: Boy, this fell apart fast. I stand along with the attitude, and I imagine that Alpha1, KROC, and others will stand behind me and say that all other th
134 N79969: Qb001, No apologies. Debateable, single metric conclusions from various surveys do not constitute irrefutable "facts." Like I said, everything I refer
135 CaptainStabbin: Qb001: And might I suggest you drop your sneer. Maybe you could be taken a bit more seriously without your condescending tone. And you shouldn't talk
136 N202PA: I think Qb101 should either address N79969's economic points or just move on and save the grandstanding.
137 Schoenorama: CaptainStabbin : The point I was trying to make is that, IMO, Life Expectancy and Infant Mortality Rates do reflect the quality of health, either be i
138 Matt D: one of the reasons the US has a considerable Infant Mortality Rate (for a rich and modern country) is because many poor and low-class parents don't ta
139 Indianguy: Healthcare? Talk about priorities man! The Empire needs warships and cruise missiles in order to protect the Homeland (PS: and now other imperial conq
140 Qb001: CaptainStabbin, Me sneering? You know what, you're right (BTW, I think it's probably the only thing you've been right about in this thread). So, my si
141 N79969: Qb001, The link below is testimony describing the harmful effects of monopsony on health care. In the study, they describe how Aetna developed monopso
142 Qb001: N79969, First, thank you for submitting this study. Very interesting indeed. First excerpt that caught my attention was this: Insurance premium increa
143 N79969: Qb001, Health care is not fully privatized in this country nor is it close to being so. This has been pointed out to you multiple times. This is clear
144 Qb001: N79969, You're right on one thing. I shouldn't have written "fully privatized healthcare". Instead, I should have written something like "To me, this
145 Superfly: I've read some of the arguments above and few raised valid points. I can't believe many of you can't distinguish the difference between expensive home
146 AC320: you may not care if doctors make good money, but a good deal of doctors themselves seem to care quite a bit. Afterall, they have loans, insane insuran
147 Superfly: AC320: a good deal of doctors themselves seem to care quite a bit. That's true. Now if we could just keep the phamacutical sales reps (legal dope push
148 DeltaSFO: Owning your private BBJ is a luxury and if you can afford it, that's fine. Heath care should not be in the same catagory as a BBJ, expensive car, mans
149 N79969: Qb001, The US has government-run health care facilities and they are disasters. Again the sheer size and diversity of the USA make comparisons to othe
150 EA CO AS: Healthcare? Talk about priorities man! The Empire needs warships and cruise missiles in order to protect the Homeland (PS: and now other imperial conq
151 Qb001: N79969, I don't dispute the fact that the US is a diversified society, but you certainly tend to underestimate the diversity in other countries. In Ca
152 N79969: Qb001, Under your suggestion (which is highly speculative to be generous), you do not get around the single-payer problem. In fact, you would create 5
153 Qb001: N79969, I don't know why you keep using offending commentaries such as telling me to quit the snide condescenion. I fail to see how this sort of tacti
154 N79969: Qb001, The reason I say that is CaptainStabbin, while brutal, is spot on. One of your links is dead. Canada's population is far smaller than that of t
155 Qb001: The link is not dead. Had you fully read my post, which I more and more believe you do not do, you would have picked the lines where I explain how to
156 N79969: Qb001, I tried the statcan link again and I get an error....I'll try later. I didn't realize my point had a philosophical dimension or intend that. I
157 Qb001: Well, at first I wanted to edit the post to add the word "epistemological", but I thought it could be interpreted as snide condescension... So I switc
158 Superfly: DeltaSFO: There are many people who have jobs and still don't have health insurance. These tend to be low paying jobs and they certainly can't afford
159 Koad: I am very happy with the system that we have in Germany. I pay less than 14 % of my income for a full coverage for my wife, the 2 kids and me. It is n
160 Superfly: Koad: That's cool. The United States can learn a lot from Germany.
161 Koad: So do we, probably just will take it`s time.
162 EA CO AS: I am very happy with the system that we have in Germany. I pay less than 14 % of my income for a full coverage for my wife, the 2 kids and me. It is n
163 Koad: 6300 is already 14 % per year that you get..... Go find a better paid job.
164 JAL777: $45,000 a year is a pretty well paid job.
165 EA CO AS: Sorry that my meager income doesn't meet your expectations. Let's say I was paid $100,000 per year, then. That would mean my cost for healthcare (unde
166 Koad: Still like our system because it also took care of me when I only made less than 1000,oo € per month.
167 N79969: Koad, What did your employer contribute to the system? Most of Europe's chronic unemployment problem is tied to excessive burdens on employers. I woul
168 Alpha 1: Still like our system because it also took care of me when I only made less than 1000,oo € per month. Government as a healthcare provider, pacifier,
169 Schoenorama: EA CO AS: If Koad would get fired, he, his wife and their 2 kids would still have health coverage, even though he has no income. I doubt it 'your' sys
170 EA CO AS: If Koad would get fired, he, his wife and their 2 kids would still have health coverage, even though he has no income. If Koad would get fired, he'd h
171 Alpha 1: If Koad would get fired, he, his wife and their 2 kids would still have health coverage, even though he has no income. I doubt it 'your' system has su
172 Schoenorama: Alpha 1: "I call it a handout, where others are paying for you." It works exactly the same way as your private health care, Alpha 1, although you prob
173 N79969: Schoenorama, What do you estimate the total monthly cost of your insurance is? Although you pay 29 Euros per month out-of-pocket, I would guess that y
174 B757300: I find it amazing that people say they can't find affordable health insurance. I pay $99 per month (100% out of pocket) for insurance that covers ever
175 Alpha 1: Problem is, B757300, you're willing to pay $500 out of pocket if need be. That gives you a better rate than those who want to pay nothing ,or very lit
176 StarAC17: Ok I think this has gotten out of hand and I can now see pros and cons to both private heathcare systems and national ones. For the people on this thr
177 Qb001: N79969, Just to give you an idea. I estimate that I pay around $140/month. Employers pay the same thing, for a total of $280/month. It covers all medi
178 Koad: Alpha1: Having a national Healthcare System like ours is also a matter of hygiene. I actually find the thought that so many citizens in the US have no
179 Sophiemaltese: I find it amazing that people say they can't find affordable health insurance. I pay $99 per month (100% out of pocket) for insurance that covers ever
180 L-188: Completely stepping past all the rhetoric that has been put up so far. I still would say that evoking Canada's system is a bad idea. I have just seen
181 VonRichtofen: "it will be AT LEAST $350.00/month." Are you serious? Holy crap!! Here in Alberta I pay $164 CDN for three months coverage. It even covers chiropracti
182 Qb001: L-188, You are right: running a system that has to cover 100% of the citizens is quite a challenge. Personally, I strongly believe that it's better to
183 Sebolino: 45 million people in the US don't have healthcare I think it's unbelievable for the richest country in the world. And most of Americans find it normal
184 4holer: OK, If you feel better about yourselves declaring your moral and logical superiority (as you see it) to everything "US", then hey, knock yourselves ou
185 JetService: Some points for all you high & mighty know-it-alls living under 'free' (LOL) healthcare. Point 1: You can find an entry level job that pays $6.00/hr.
186 StarAC17: Yes its true that people that have no benefits or can't pay don't receive the best or most aggressive treatments for their illnesses and must wait lon
187 JetService: Star, I understand it is a very small percentage of physicians and certainty its not surprising, because there are so many. I don't agree with them an
188 Sophiemaltese: It's not that I am unwilling to pay for health care, I just want to be able to afford it. It is ridiculous that a person at McDonald's can get health
189 L-188: Ron Jeremy can't afford health care insurance???? Your freind should have used Superglue, it was developed to hold battle wounds together in Nam until
190 Sophiemaltese: maybe some good scotch tape would have worked.... actually, he had it bandaged up really well...AND STILL KEPT WORKING...and it didn't heal. I didn't
191 L-188: Well then maybe he did. But your freind might be an example of what I feel is wrong with the health care system. I have gone to the ER twice in the pa
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