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US Patients Are Getting A Lousy Deal  
User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

Excerpts from a Toronto Star article (2003/08/24)
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1061547584545&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

For years, the United States has spent more than twice as much per capita on health care as Canada and other leading industrial countries.

A new report helps shed light on why this is so.

A study published by the New England Journal of Medicine this past week reports that 31 cents of every dollar spent on health care in the United States goes to pay administrative costs.

The report found the U.S. spent a whopping $300 billion, or $1,059 for each American, on the salaries of health plan, hospital and physician-office billing specialists; compensating doctors for time spent handling paperwork instead of seeing patients; and funding marketing campaigns for hospitals and insurance companies.

By comparison, paperwork in Canada's publicly funded health-care system was a relatively lean $307 (U.S.) per person.

Paper-shuffling costs tell only part of the story. The report doesn't include how much of the U.S. health care dollar is handed over as profit to the private-sector companies that dominate the system. Using conservative estimates, profit would take another 10 to 15 cents out of each health-care dollar.

All in all, a lot of money in the system is diverted from spending on actual patient care. And still, 41 million Americans are medically uninsured.

Our friends south of the border are getting a lousy deal.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Another Flame bait post about the US health care system

At least we don't have to wait months to get needed operations or to get schedualed for MRI's because there are only 150 odd machines in country.



OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4633 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

L-188, that's only for minor surgery. When my younger cousin's doctor suspected she had a tumor, she had an MRI within days and when the tumor was discovered she was on the operating table within days.

Stop acting like people are dropping like flies because they can't get urgent help for serious ailments.

Again, if the Canadian system is so bad, why is it ranked way higher than the US system?



Word
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1294 times:

Qb001, give up your fixation with the U.S. Health Care system. It isn't perfect, God knows, but it works just fine for the overwhelming majority of us. Stop beating a dead horse.

User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2597 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

This is funny (not ha-ha, either). A colleague of mine found a suspicious growth on her nose, but couldn't get an appointment with her physician for several months, unless she changed primary physicians.

After she had done so, he recommended a dermatologist....you guessed it, no appointments until November! And she told them it was for suspected skin cancer.

Who says Canadians have to wait longer than us 'merkins?



User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

Last time I checked, the US healthcare system was not off-topic in the non-aviation forum.

My opinions are backed by sources, to which I provide links (this time, an indirect source from the very prestigious New England Journal of Medicine).

I think they might be valuable and appreciated by some a.net members. If you don't fall into this category then, please remember that nobody forces you to read or comment on a thread you don't like.

I believe this is expressed in a civilized manner.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

It's beating a dead horse. We discussed this to death under that last thread, which went well over 100 posts. Was that not enough for you?

We get it-you don't like our health care system. Get over it.


User currently offlineGalaxy5 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2034 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1279 times:

: Alpha 1
From United States
Posted Sun Aug 24 2003 15:23:57
Qb001, give up your fixation with the U.S. Health Care system. It isn't perfect, God knows, but it works just fine for the overwhelming majority of us. Stop beating a dead horse. It's beating a dead horse. We discussed this to death under that last thread, which went well over 100 posts. Was that not enough for you?

We get it-you don't like our health care system. Get over it.


Kind of like Alpha1's infatuation with everything bush.





"damn, I didnt know prince could Ball like that" - Charlie Murphy
User currently offlineL-188 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 29813 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1273 times:

L-188, that's only for minor surgery

Then why does my Grandmother, born and raised in Alberta have relatives that come south for treatments they can't get in a timely manner there?






OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

Kind of like Alpha1's infatuation with everything bush.

As an American, Galaxy5, I have every right to either praise or to critisize MY president, as I see fit, because it affect me. Our honorable friend starting these posts isn't from the U.S.: he doesn't use the U.S. healthcare system, nor does it affect him directly. Apples and oranges, my friend.


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1265 times:

Is there a rule here saying that, say, non-French cannot criticize what's going in France?

It's a forum Alpha, as long as it's done in a civilized manner, we are free to talk about everything we want. You better accept it. And, as I said earlier, you don't have to get into this discussion if you don't feel like it.

And BTW, if there is something you'd like to express about Canada, please feel free to do so and start a thread of your own. As long as it supported and expressed in a civilized manner, I, for one, am not afraid to talk about anything whatsoever about Canada.



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1259 times:

Qb001, this isn't a thread about Canada, is it? I'm not here to exchange brickbats with you over our country of origin. I think you're looking to pick fights over something that really doesn't affect you.

Again, the healthcare system needs improving, but we don't need to go to socialized healthcare, that will do nothing but increase inefficiency, increase waits and increase costs. That's not for us. I don't suppose to have all the answers, and I never will, but I know that I don't agree with your beating this dead horse.


User currently offlineLstc From Canada, joined Jun 2003, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1252 times:

Again, the healthcare system needs improving, but we don't need to go to socialized healthcare, that will do nothing but increase inefficiency, increase waits and increase costs. That's not for us. I don't suppose to have all the answers, and I never will, but I know that I don't agree with your beating this dead horse.

QB001,

You're wasting your time. You're discussing this with people who are sitting in a house/apartment on the computer. These are not the people who suffer from lack of healthcare.

You won't hear from the 40 million that don't have access to healthcare. They are the homeless, the poor and other disadvantaged people who have no hope of ever advancing in the "land o' plenty" to the south of us.

The US has successfully developed a society where select groups of “undesirables” are kept down while other "desirables" wallow in the wealth. In my opinion its one of the most oppressive societies in the world. Its mirrors the cast system used in India except instead of separating blood lines, they distinguish levels primarily by skin color and other physical traits.

Of course the inefficiencies of the VA hospitals have been discussed, without acknowledging that Americans consider veterans not worthy of health care.

By the way, the “waiting list” myth seems to linger on for ever. If you have an urgent need for diagnostic tools, you get it right away. If you need less urgent attention, you wait. I am sick of reading about some guy dying while on a waiting list. Chances are very good that there were other factors that led to the death. And….at least that person had access to the system. I’ve also read about many Americans dying because they were refused by certain hospitals or that they didn’t have insurance. “Access denied”.


User currently offlineDelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1247 times:

The high cost of medical care is balanced by relative abundance of capacity, at least for those who can pay (or have insurance that can pay). I have a good job, a good plan, and have always been satisfied with the medical care that I and my family has received.

By contrast, when I lived in Canada, I had one major surgery when I was in my 20's at the Vancouver General Hospital, for a kidney stone. This was in the late 70's. Since the doc could not schedule me for months, and I needed to have it in weeks, the decision was that I will hang tough until certain symptoms apppeared, at which time I would enter via the emergency room -- which I ultimately did, about 3 or 4 weeks later. After the surgery, I lived in a corridor for a couple of days, after which I was moved into a ward with 25 other patients.

On other occasions, I visited the VGH emergency room for a cracked rib , torn cartilege and other minor problems. Each visit took the better part of a day. More recently, I had occasion to take my father to an emergency room in Toronto (Northwestern Hospital) and again it was similarly overcrowded.

Similar crowding occurs here in the US, too, but that is generally for free service; people who can pay get better treatment. In Canada, everyone seems to get uniformly slow treatment.

So, what's my final opinion? As long as I can pay, the US is better.

Pete


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1241 times:

The link is broken. Reading the italicized material, it seems that some editorial material was mixed with quoted material. That ain't right.

While high administrative costs are a genuine problem for our system, the post goes off the deep end and headlong into this socialist diatribe:

"The report doesn't include how much of the U.S. health care dollar is handed over as profit to the private-sector companies that dominate the system. Using conservative estimates, profit would take another 10 to 15 cents out of each health-care dollar"

This statement (I don't know who wrote it) belies a massive misunderstanding of economics. There is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. Wealth (and profit) are created by the efficient use of resources. The wording "handed over" implies an insidious "hand out" revealing the hard-core socialist bent of the writer. Actually it is payment for services rendered. Of course hand outs (the real kind) are perfectly okay in the minds of such folks so long as they are handed out to legitimate goldbrickers.

If private entitities are earning an above-market-rate of return, the answer is not socialism but more competition. There should be a gold rush into medical insurance business if they are generating 10-15% returns annually...I'm calling a broker first thing tomorrow.

Lstc,

That's right...the only compassion for down and out Americans comes from you self-proclaimed enlightened folk north of the border and from Americans that do not own or have access to computers...


**********************
Note to Canadians:

How about you guys cut back on dispensing health policy advice and concentrate hard on sending down more Molson Golden and more Pamela Lee our way. Keep the medical system.


User currently offlineJcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 3 days ago) and read 1239 times:

Canada has a better healthcare system than America? Please. According to which organization? The Center For Waiting Three Months For Surgery? Or would it be the Socialist Party? I dont hear of any Americans hoping to head to Montreal or Toronto for their major surgeries, in fact, its the exact opposite.

America has the best healthcare system in the world because it is privatized. I will gladly pay for my healthcare because it is prompt, efficient, and for the most part doctor's care about their patients. No bureaucrat is making decisions about your health and your condition. And yes, I would much rather have my HMO make decisions about my health than someone in the government. If I get in a car accident and my life is on the line, its no longer about money, just let me see the best hospital with the best doctors.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlineCaptainStabbin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1229 times:

LSTC and Qb001 are so obsessed with the notion that they are more enlightened than everyone else because they happen to live Canada where their ideology reigns supreme. That doesn’t make anyone better, in my opinion, but they seem to think it does. I don’t know, obviously they are “perfect” individuals, completely devoid of fault. :- Yeah right.

As for LTSC’s notion that you won’t hear from “uninsured” individuals because they’re all “poor”, I was uninsured for a brief time and I’m far from being poor. After I lost my last job, I chose to forgo the COBRA benefits for a few months because I didn’t really see the point of paying that much money. I opted to wait and search for a better and more affordable plan. It was my decision to remain uninsured for a brief time. But according to our Canadian “experts” on American society, it doesn’t happen.

N79969:

You’re right about those two. They seem to be almost gleeful with their smug boasts of superiority. Hardly compassionate; really as malicious as the people they think they’re better than. It would be funny because their views are so asinine, but it's somewhat scary that they honestly think this way. They obviously have little knowledge of the word “oppressed” and what it means. Now, I don’t know these two and I probably wouldn’t want to, but if they’ve done a fair bit of overseas traveling, then they’d know what the true definition of “oppressed”. Go visit Asia or Latin America – complete eye openers of societies.


User currently offlineCaptainStabbin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

And anyone who takes the "Red" Star seriously needs to get their head examined.

[Edited 2003-08-24 18:34:55]

User currently offlineCaptainStabbin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1222 times:

Again, if the Canadian system is so bad, why is it ranked way higher than the US system?

It's ranked 30th; the US is ranked 37th according to the WHO. Neither one is ranked that high and the Canadian system is not WAAAAAY higher. Both systems are in serious need of repair, in my opinion, and I don't think that either method will work in both countries.

As for waiting lists, my friend's grandfather in Vancouver went to Seattle to have his hip replaced because he didn't want to be on the waiting list for months. My uncle, who is a doctor at St. Michaels in Toronto, also had some surgery done in the US because he didn't want to be on the waiting list. And he's a doctor in Canada! That says a lot about the confidence he has in the system. They're not the only examples I know of personally.

Point is, anyone who thinks that the waiting list problem is a "myth" is in a mental state bordering fantasy. If it wasn't a problem, why is their so much debate over fixing the system in Canada?

[Edited 2003-08-24 18:46:53]

User currently offlineSchoenorama From Spain, joined Apr 2001, 2440 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Jcs17:

"America has the best healthcare system in the world because it is privatized."

You obviously missed the other discussion on this topic. Because US healthcare is privatized, the US Infant Mortality Rate is higher than countries such as Taiwan, Greece, Czech Republic and even Slovenia.

"I will gladly pay for my healthcare..."

....and you don't mind a company is making a profit out of your healthcare? You don't mind a company raising your health-care premium as you get older and/or become more of a burden to your healthcare company? You don't mind your healthcare-company cancelling your healthcare-insurance because you've presented to many claims? You don't mind your healthcare-provider not paying your $ 5,000,- hospital-bill claiming your health-insurance doesn't cover plastic-surgery? You don't mind having no healthcare at all because you simply cannot afford it any longer, either because you have no income or the premiums have increased too much?

Healthcare should be available and affordable for everybody, regardless their age, income or health-condition. With privatized health-care, run by profit-based companies, this is simply impossible in todays US.



Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
User currently offlineCaptainStabbin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1214 times:

You obviously missed the other discussion on this topic. Because US healthcare is privatized, the US Infant Mortality Rate is higher than countries such as Taiwan, Greece, Czech Republic and even Slovenia.

Well, Saudi, the UAE and Oman have excellent public, universal healthcare systems, but they have fairly high infant mortaliy rates. And yes, I know you said cultural differences last time. Maybe they play a bigger role that the nature of healthcare spending?


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1206 times:

Note to N79969,

The link is not broken. But because it's a very long link, the a.net text editor cuts it so that it fits in the screen, adding a (br) command, where the "(" and ")" are really "<" and ">". Look for it in the address bar and remove it; the link will work just fine.

The portion I cut basically says that the US healthcare system is not an example for Canada to follow. Read it by yourself if you don't trust me. Unlike many people here, at least I supply sources to support my facts.

Also, for those interested, the WHO ranks Canada 30th, the US 37th and Cuba 39th...



Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineLstc From Canada, joined Jun 2003, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

Personally, I really don't care if the US adopts an universally accessible health care system. But I do notice when frustration causes some to lash out. Can't handle the truth eh Captain?

If our health care is so bad, why do we live longer? Why do we have fewer infant deaths? The answer is that among the rich in the US, health is generally good...better than good. Best in the world. But among the poor, its bad. Close to the worst in the world when it comes to access. Somewhere in the middle is the average we come to see in statistics. That paired with a ridiculous firearm policy and violence...but heck that's another post. But maybe its not! If I was poor I might just be pushed to a life of crime...



User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1201 times:

There is nothing inherently incompatible about for profit enterprises providing health care. Profit is treated as a bad word. Profits are good for society. Profits are only generated when resources are used efficiently. The profit motive causes people to devise the best products in the most efficient manner.

To understand health care, you have detach all the hysterics and hyperbole that surround the issue. In terms of resources, it is just like any other service in most regards and health care can be made more efficient and can be improved in terms of quality. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Naturally there are special ethical and moral considerations that are attendant to the delivery of health care. However that does not translate into a prescription for socialization of medicine.

Something else that seems lost on people is that some Americans can afford health insurance and simply elect not to buy it.

Don't some wealthy Canadians go to Cuba for some of that 39th-worldwide-quality health care that is available on demand with hard currency?

[Edited 2003-08-24 19:36:49]

User currently offlineCaptainStabbin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1194 times:

Frustration? Naaah...you give yourself too much credit. No need to, really. There’s nothing to lash out at, just an honest observation. But tell me, if you really don't care what the US adopts or what happens here, then why bother commenting on it?

And you tell me, if the Canadian system was so good, then why are there so many Canadians going south of the border to have their operations done in the US? Truth is that the system is not handling their needs. Who cares if they're rich and can afford treatment in the US. Does that make them less Canadian?

[Edited 2003-08-24 19:53:58]

25 Lstc : Nope, If a Canadian can afford it, and seeks world class care, more power to him/her. As long as they don't stop paying their taxes. Tell me, how many
26 JAL777 : I have no responsibility to meet the needs and desires of the poor. Sorry.
27 Post contains links CaptainStabbin : Tell me, how many poor Canadians do you see heading south of the border? None I bet.... Now, I have no idea about Cedric Knight's or Bernice Schuster'
28 Scorpio : After following these discussions for some time now, I believe I can come to this conclusion about the differences in opinion: -In Europe, and most ot
29 B747forlife : It seems some people here have missed the point that no hospital can deny urgent care based on the ability to pay in the US. If your appendix is about
30 Schoenorama : CaptainStabbin: " Well, Saudi, the UAE and Oman have excellent public, universal healthcare systems, but they have fairly high infant mortaliy rates.
31 N79969 : Note to all pontificators, please distinguish between health care and health insurance. There is a big difference. Carry on... Scorpio, Universal cove
32 Scorpio : Universal coverage in Europe cannot be characterized as compassionate because it is provided by using compulsion of law. The system was put into place
33 Post contains links N79969 : Scorpio, "It's called solidarity, and a very large majority of the people here support it. You can't opt out of not paying your taxes, can you? Same t
34 Lstc : I have no responsibility to meet the needs and desires of the poor. Sorry. Typical American response. Is it right or wrong? Complex issue that can't b
35 Yyz717 : Typical American response. Is it right or wrong? Complex issue that can't be summed in a single sentence, but it is typical. What a ridiculous stateme
36 CaptainStabbin : It's also a generalization, YYZ717. And who is usually guilty of blaming others for that?
37 JAL777 : Maybe you should go back and reread what I wrote. I said I had no RESPONSIBILITY to meet their needs and especially for their desires. Doesn't mean I
38 Post contains images Lstc : Racism and socialism???? Hate and arrogance? Explain it to me YYZ. Might I add that your response is a typical Toronto response.....blame it all on so
39 Post contains images Yyz717 : Nice one LSTC. In one thread you've stereotyped all Americans and Torontonians.....gee whiz that's about 300M people altogether. It must be amazing to
40 Delta-flyer : If a Canadian can afford it, and seeks world class care, more power to him/her. Interesting .... so the US health care is so bad it is "world class"?
41 N79969 : Let's make another distinction in discussion in addition to health care v. health insurance. I suggest that people differentiate between civic respons
42 Post contains images Lstc : Interesting .... so the US health care is so bad it is "world class"? The issue was never whether or not the US had excellent facilities, personnel or
43 PHX-LJU : Schoenorama wrote: "Because US healthcare is privatized, the US Infant Mortality Rate is higher than countries such as Taiwan, Greece, Czech Republic
44 Delta-flyer : The US spends more money per capita on the health care system than Canada, but access is limited. I just explained in my previous posts that access is
45 Post contains images Lstc : Everyone gets medical service, but people with money get better service. Ohhhhhh...so the US healthcare system is the same as Canada's then... I've se
46 Qb001 : Hey Lstc, What can you do? The OECD says Canada enjoys a better healthcare system, so does the WHO. The outcomes are better (better life expectancy, l
47 Yyz717 : I just explained in my previous posts that access is NOT limited, regardless of what you or anyone says. Everyone gets medical service, but people wi
48 N79969 : "I've argued my fair share, with substantiated facts, but some keep arguing back with totally disconnected, esoteric, unsubstantiated theories, and so
49 CaptainStabbin : By Qb001's logic then, because the WHO has ranked Ireland's healthcare system higher than the US's and Canada's they should have a better "better outc
50 Lstc : I wonder YYZ... You mentioned that you are currently unemployed. If you got sick today, what would you do? Of course you've got some money, otherwise
51 Yyz717 : You mentioned that you are currently unemployed. If you got sick today, what would you do? Of course you've got some money, otherwise you wouldn't be
52 Lstc : Okee-Dokee YYZ717/Marco. But you didn't answer the question. What would you do if you got sick? Would you refuse health care in Canada?
53 CaptainStabbin : Question should be: if you got sick, would you refuse healthcare anywhere?
54 Post contains images Yyz717 : What would you do if you got sick? Would you refuse health care in Canada? Would anyone? Having said that, if I had a life threatening illness, I woul
55 CaptainStabbin : OT: Why doesn't the green "eye-roll" smilie roll it's eyes? Anyone else experiencing the same thing?
56 Marco : But you didn't answer the question. What would you do if you got sick? Would you refuse health care in Canada? Health care in Canada is crap anyway. T
57 Delta-flyer : ? The OECD says Canada enjoys a better healthcare system, so does the WHO Well, if they say so, it must be so. In my case, it is not so at all - I am
58 Post contains links Qb001 : Delta-flyer, There use to be a good PDF document here. Right now, it does not work. I don't know if it's temporary or permanent. Too bad, cause it was
59 Post contains images JAL777 : Please do us a favour and move to the US and get your unemployed ass off our medicare coverage. But that's what I thought it was there for... for the
60 Marco : But that's what I thought it was there for... for the unemployed and poor while they get back on their feet Unfortunately that attitude (bitterness) i
61 Delta-flyer : Qb001 ... thanks for the links. Unfortunately, after about 10 minutes of studying them, I found a serious discrepancy in the two reports: The Maine re
62 Qb001 : The higher cost of medical care in the US represents the fact that those who pay are getting really good service, while those who can't may get just a
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