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Abortion: A Womans Choice?  
User currently offlineMx5_boy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1146 times:

Abortion.

That big word that strikes fear into the religious and conservative alike. Whilst I know this has been discussed on this forum before, I don't believe it has been done from a woman's prospective. Why? Why should men dictate what women do to their bodies? Is it not a woman's choice? YES, it is a woman's choice, it's her body by right and she does not wish to follow through with a full term pregnancy the I believe it's her right to make the choice to abort is she so wishes to do so.

The procedure and surgery is unpleasant, so is the so called ethical and moral reasons why. BUT, it is not up to a man to decide whether or not a woman does this. This is my question, is it a woman's choice or not?

We don't need to hear from the religious zealot minority's on this issue, they will claim conservatism and the "death penalty" in one sentence, and add for a desert, "right to life". Hypocrites, and male at that.

Let a woman chose her destiny. Many see no reason with killing for war, children, adults and even pregnant women. What is the problem with women choosing their fate?

Cheers,

mb

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAussiemite From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1016 times:

This is a very difficult topic, theres always going to be a difference of opinion. Personally I don't beleive in abortion, I could never have a girlfriend/wife go ahead with it.

User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (13 years 10 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1011 times:

Just for the record: I'm pro-choice. Other than that I will keep out of this discussion. The christian hate debate is monopolising on my time.  Big grin

User currently offlineN312RC From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (13 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 1009 times:

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no......

Pure and simple, it is MURDER.

Why cant you people see that? You are taking the life of a living, breathing, thinking human being! That is just plane wrong, and should be illegal.



N/A
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 1005 times:

I am pro-chioce, and I will leave it at that.

User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (13 years 10 months 4 days ago) and read 1005 times:

LOL: Breathing, Thinking!

It's just a few cells - probably not even enough to have sensory reactions.

According to your list, the death penalty is a thousand times more wrong - as those people are really breathing, living and thinking. Yet I am a supporter of that, too. (But only for serious crimes like rape and murder - not for corruption and espionage as some people demanded a few days ago in the FBI agent spy forum)


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 6, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1004 times:

This is no doubt one of the most hottly debated topics of all time.

When I was younger, I bought into all of this NRA and NOW rhetoric about a "womans choice".

Now, I find myself wondering.

Now don't get me wrong, I think to a certain extent, it's a valid argument.

But I only think that all of this hoopla regarding "right to choose over my body" is only a facade for a much deeper issue, which sort of ties in to some of the things I said in my "Hating Christians" topic.

Abortion, IMHO is nothing more than an advanced form of birth control.

You see, although the pro-choicers love to scream about a womans right to choose, that's not the real issue.

Because that decision does and always has existed, and it all boils down to personal choice and responsibility.

Of course, I am referring to:

SEX!!!

That's right. That's the real issue here. Everybody wants to have their sex.
And a (unwanted) pregnancy could be a consequence to that sex.

So what do they do? Stop the sex? Take better precautions?

No, they kill the baby.

What better way to skirt responsibility for your actions?

And please spare me the sob stories about rape and incest, because those collectively comprise fewer than 1% of them. (I should also comment parenthetcially that 98% of all murders in this country are abortions).

So you see, the 'womans right to choose' has always been present. It's just a matter of WHEN that decision gets made.

It's also interesting to note that motherhood is by INSTINCT one of the most powerful forces to protect.
The desire and will for a mother to care for and protect her baby is a biological force.
Just try and do any harm to a baby, and see what what most mothers will do. And you thought disgruntled Postal workers were dangerous.

When a society can convince a mother to execute her child in the face of the most powerful force to protect, that society has a very powerful impact indeed. It is a stunning success of Black Magic in this country. (This also applies to women who do not have abortions, and go on to abandon, neglect, or abuse their offspring)


User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 989 times:

MattD, are you finally seeing the point about how immoral a society is that disrespects single mothers and calls their children "bastards"? I know, things are improving, but I'm sure there's still far too many idiots out there.

Also: a condom has an 89% rate of protection, a pill 98%. So what happens to the other 11% / 2% respectively. Unwanted pregnancy is one possible outcome - hence abortion is the last measure. And hence it has my fullhearted support.


User currently offlineTupolev154B2 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1332 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 981 times:

I am pro-choice. I see no reason for men or the government to be telling women what they can or cannot do with their bodies. Before any of you right-wing zealots jump on me and scream "BLOODY MURDERER!" at me, let me tell you that I, like everyone else think abortion is wrong. Since it is a woman's personal business, however it is her business and only her business. Yes Matt D, Iagree with your point that responsibility in having sex is the most responsible way of not having an unwanted child, but please back up your claim that abortion is "an advanced way of birth control." Does that include rape? N312RC, what do you think about the death penalty then? Is not that the same thing? I believe that it is so even though I support it in cases of crimes that involve extreme brutality and the taking of human lives, for example the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City and the murder of the Dartmouth professors if other circumstances of the murder are proven to be true.

User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 981 times:

Comparing the death penalty to abortion is like comparing the avionics of a DC-3 versus an A340.

By executing a criminal, that person is being punished as per the law allows, which there is nothing illegal or immoral about. If a person has commited an offense that warrants the death penalty, that person is an abomination to society, and no amount of counseling or "rehab" will ever work.

Plus it's a lot more cost effective to drive in the needle as opposed to feeding, caring for, and housing an inmate for the rest of his/her life, which can be anywhere from a few years to several decades.

By executing an unborn baby, what offense is that baby guilty of, other than being an inconvenience?

Even though there is death in both scenarios, I cannot think of two more dissimilar sets of circumstances.

The convicted felon made a premeditated and conscious choice to do what they did to land in death row.

In the case of abortion, the only one guilty is the woman who took a risk and is unwilling or unable to live with the consequences.

Sorry, but no one is entitled to a free ride.


User currently offlineN863DA From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 48 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 971 times:

Matt, I respect every single word of your opinion... but my confusion now comes from your above statement.

You say that the woman has no right to 'cleanse' her body of another's life - that of an unborn child. You also state, in the same post, that there is a good reason for the death penalty - amongst other things for the economic savings reaped from the lack of a requirement for food, water and shelter.

However, as is written in the bible, one has no right to take the life of another - and this includes 'society' (in the form of the State) taking the life of a felon. This, in theory, makes the 'By executing a criminal, that person is being punished as per the law allows, which there is nothing illegal or immoral about.' statement innaccurate. It may perhaps not be Illegal to take the life of another in the form of the Death Penalty, but it certainly is immoral if you follow the Bible to the letter. That, I feel, is a certainty.

'By executing an unborn baby, what offense is that baby guilty of, other than being an inconvenience?' Well, from a strict Economics point of view, the same as you said above could be said of a child... the one time expense of having an abortion, (which is not even an issue in certain countries with Nationalized Healthcare) is a lot less than year on year of diapers, food, clothing, housing, love - all the regular things.

The above is not an attack of any type, just an inquiry. Personally I feel that I have no right to dictate the outcome as it's not my place to do so - I am male, and it's something that concerns a woman. If it were my kid, I would have a serious problem with any form of abortion - but I would still have no right to choose if that's what is required and requested.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8195 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 967 times:

Of course it's a woman's choice. Certainly not something that can be decided by a stranger, least of all with a religious agenda. This is one area where Americans have a lot to learn.

"No one gets a free ride"? "In the case of abortion, the only one guilty is the woman who took a risk and is unwilling or unable to live with the consequences"? Matt D, I agree they should bring back reel-to-reel but some of your other opinions are not based in reality.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 967 times:

The reason why I am pro-choice, is not because I agree with killing unborn babies, but in many cases, where a woman gets an abortion, its because the kid is unwanted, there is no family for the baby, or financially the mother will not be able to support the baby. These are just a few of many. Now, you can argue and say adoption is the best thing, but there are so many children out there as it is, that need to be adopted, but I do think this is a viable option. Now, if a child is going to be born into a family where it was not wanted, will not be loved, will live in poverty, ect, I think that that child is better off not being born. I understand people shouldn't be having sex, if they can't be responsible, but that will probably never happen, so options like abortion are here, and as long as its the woman having the child, it should be her decision, coupled with the fathers.....

Just my 2 cents...


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 13, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 964 times:

This is what I don't understand:

If these women do not want kids, or cannot afford them, why do they keep getting themselves knocked up?

This is the point that most pro choicers love to gloss over.
The choice IS there:

Do you or do you not wish to get pregnant? Nothing has taken away a womans right to make that choice.

Unless, of course it's as I suspect as I spelled out above:

They want to have their "freedoms" without any accountability or implications.

"If you can't pay, don't play".

Why is that such a difficult concept to come to grips with?


User currently offlineSEVEN_FIFTY7 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 957 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 953 times:

<<"If you can't pay, don't play". >>


Well, I think it's okay to "play", but why aren't more females using condoms nowadays, ESPECIALLY if they don't want kids? (Birth control pills do not always work). Not to mention (and more importantly) that they represent the fastest growing segment of HIV infection, and yet they still don't make their partners throw that raincoat on. It doesn't make sense to me.



User currently offlineN766AS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 946 times:

>Also: a condom has an 89% rate of protection, a pill 98%. So what happens to the other 11% / 2% respectively

OK... lets think. What is the 100% effective type of birth control?

I think Matt D has hit this one on the head. The pro-choicers just want "freedom" without any attached responsiblility, accountibility, or implications.


User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 940 times:

N766AS - are you implying no premarital sex as a solution? If you are, maybe your view of the world is outdated and has been outdated for the past 40 years.

User currently offlineRaddog2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 937 times:

Spare us your tired old personal responsibility schtick. Since when has banning abortion gotten people to stop having sex? When abortion was illegal, all that happened was that women were forced into back alleys and died from botched procedures. Perhaps you don't care if women die to teach them a lesson, just like you don't care if infants starve to teach their parents a lesson. But then don't dare call yourselves "pro-life". And since when has it been the government's job to tell people whether to have sex or not? Perhaps you would like people to get a government application approved every time they want to have sex? It always irritates me that the "small government" people are perfectly willing to have the government intrude into people's bedrooms whether it be to ban homosexuality or abortions or whatever.

And frankly, as a future physician, I am appalled by some of the idiotic positions some "pro-life" people take. These people are totally unwilling to permit abortions EVEN when 1.) the fetuses have defects that will cause them to die within days of birth and 2.) carrying these fetuses to term might kill the mother. And this isn't even counting those people who go around advocating the murder of physicians who perform abortion procedures. The government should never tell physicians how to best practice medicine, and neither should political extremists. The decision is for the woman and her physician to make. Not Matt D or N766AS, unless it's your child and your body.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 18, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 934 times:

No one is telling anyone when or whether or not to have sex!!!
Go out and make like a rabbit all you want.
I really don't care.

All I said is that if you do choose to do that, then be ready to live with the consequences.

Nothing more, nothing less.


User currently offlineRaddog2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 920 times:

Well, let me ask you this. What gives you the right or the authority to declare what the consequences are? Do you fancy yourself some sort of judge, jury, and executioner rolled into one -- and that you have the power to declare that failed contraception is punishable by a ruptured uterus? Who are you to dictate what options women should have?

User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 919 times:

"All I said is that if you do choose to do that, then be ready to live with the consequences.

Nothing more, nothing less. "

Except, Matt, to some degree you want to establish what those consequences will be.

I think your rhetoric is reasonable up to a point, but please be honest about it.


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 21, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 916 times:

Rhetoric nothing, I'm telling you with all the subtlety of a slap in the face with a piece of pipe that that is what I am saying.

User currently offlineMbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 911 times:

...and nobody is buying it.

You're right about your lack of subtlety though!


User currently offlineMatt D From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 9502 posts, RR: 47
Reply 23, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 908 times:

....and why would you buy into it?

To do that would be an admission of guilt and actually be willing to take some responsibility for yourselves, not to mention actually having to make some tough choices and and perhaps even think ahead before doing something that maybe...just maybe....you have no business doing.

I would never expect that from a Liberal.



User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 24, posted (13 years 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 904 times:

I havent read through any of the posts... but i honestly dont see how a developing human life is a woman's choice. It is a moral choice... one of whether or not that child is going to live or not. My best friend just recently found out he has an unborn brother that was aborted 2 years before he was born.. how devastating was that....


Chicks dig winglets.
25 Raddog2 : Why is it that certain individuals perpetually avoid the meat of the argument? Matt D -- repeating your assertions and calling people "liberals" doesn
26 Doomfox : If you can't trust a woman with a choice, how can you trust her with a baby?
27 Post contains images KLM747 : I think it's the woman's choice. KLM747
28 Matt D : First of all, it's interesting to note that you mentioned apple pie. After seeing the movie in which said apple pie was the subject of a sexual encoun
29 Raddog2 : Your faith and beliefs are your business. Whether they're wrong or not is a moot point. What I object to is your using your faith and beliefs to presu
30 AgnusBymaster : I really can't see how an immature fetus is able to comprehend that it's being killed. It has no life experience, and if it's brain hasn't developed y
31 Matt D : Being as frank and candid as possible, I would not in the least object (or even care for that matter) if these folks you so warmly mention were in fac
32 Matt D : Women feeling guilt or viewing abortion as a "last resort"? That's the funniest damn thing I've ever heard besides politicall correctness. I've known
33 Raddog2 : So in other words, you agree. In this particular example, PETA's faith and beliefs are "farfetched" and wrong and therefore they should not be allowed
34 AgnusBymaster : Abortion is something that is a personal decision. There are only two people it can effect...the mother and the child. Therefore, it is not up to othe
35 Mx5_boy : Raddog, You have made my respected users list, I need not present any arguments as you have taken the words collectively out of my mouth. Try as MattD
36 AgnusBymaster : We do not need any more unneeded children in this world. Abortion is not the way to solve this problem, but I the last thing we need are unwanted chil
37 Matt D : The solution to that problem is as unlikely to happen as it is obvious. Need I say more?
38 We're Nuts : I wanted to post this earlier, but I was disconnected and didn't have time to get back on: You would rather this child suffer? My personal opinion is
39 Post contains images L-1011-500 : I am pro-life. I always have been. And I always will be. However, I was watching the TV one day, and I saw a surgery being performed which was radical
40 KROC : We're Nuts, yet another agreement. Scary, scary In-Deed.
41 An-225 : Well, I am pro-choice. Noone can tell a woman what to do - she is going to be judged by god, if it exists (I highly doubt that). And if you are agains
42 N-156F : Allow me to make my viewpoints clear: 1. Abortion is a woman's choice. I personally believe there are better alternatives (in some cases), but nobody
43 Ikarus : Someone made a funny comparison, of animals and abortion, claiming that it is not natural to abort, as dogs don't do it. Whoever it was: It is very na
44 Post contains images DeltaRNOmd-80 : I agree with Matt D (what a surprise ) If these girls that are going out and getting pregnant lack the responsibility to know the consequences of havi
45 Accord : I say don't form an opinion until you have been there and had to help someone make this decision. Everyone on this forum seems to be speaking in a "t
46 Post contains images Superfly : I read this post extensively. Let me ask the conservatives or so called conservatives; do you believe that sex/love making or what ever you want to ca
47 Post contains images VirginLover : OK, how many are you are women? I'm pro choice, but I don't believe that someone should have an abortion because they "made a mistake". If the child p
48 CPDC10-30 : I probably wouldn't be here if my mother didn't have an abortion since my parents only were to have two children. The fetus before me had very serious
49 Superfly : These right-wingers want to make everything a woman does there business! ...Afterall, they want to be able to pull woman around by there hair back to
50 Accord : Hi Virginlover how was your trip? I am still waiting to hear facts not opinions. Accord
51 DeltaRNOmd-80 : Accord- I am afraid you are not going to get some real life experience facts because 1) this is an aviation website, filled with mostly males and a so
52 Windsong : I think abortion is the womans choice. MX5, you will notice though, that the majority of young girls are keeping their babies, and collecting the welf
53 VirginA340 : I would like to hear from the female members on this forum. I personally rhink it's a woman's choice not the government, an over zealous anti abortion
54 Nicolaki : DeltaRNOmd-80: Let's just analize a part of your text here, can we? Pay special attention to the part in bold. If these girls that are going out and g
55 RealHigh : DeltaRNOmd-80, dosen't stand at risk of getting a woman pregnant. What woman would want to be bothered with such an ignorant-narrow minded kid in the
56 An-225 : "Because life of an unborn child is sacred. So once they're born you can beat them, starve them, when they grow up send them off to war with some star
57 DeltaRNOmd-80 : Nikolaki, the woman should say no or make the guy put a condom on, but they have no responsibility if they dont make the guy do that. RealHigh- Actual
58 Nicolaki : deltaRNOmd-80: You're such a narrow-viewed redneck, at least that is what your attitude shows. You think women are the only ones to blame there but le
59 Matt D : DeltaRNOmd-80: I agree with you wholeheartedly, although the rape/incest scenarios are questionable at best, and would merit some case-by-case scrutin
60 CPDC10-30 : make the guy put a condom on, but they have no responsibility if they dont make the guy do that. Last time I checked, it was the man who has the equi
61 Post contains images Nicolaki : That was last time you checked ... hehe Just kiding CP. How was France?
62 Ikarus : "Continuing to beat a dead horse" - so you are admitting that his arguments are dead (i.e. without substance)? How nice of you. I never thought I'd se
63 Matt D : I did not say that the argument is dead. What I was referring to was the double standard of the Left that they refuse to acknowledge. And so I admitte
64 An-225 : How is it a double standard on the left? Here's where I am making a point. If there's really a God (which I highly doubt), he will judge a woman and e
65 Windsong : Ouch!!
66 DeltaRNOmd-80 : Ultimately, whos decision is it to have sex? Its the womans, it is her decision to open her legs to the man. Thats what they call "pussy power". The w
67 FP_v2 : I agree, abortion is very wrong. A woman that undergoes the procedure is always a stinky slut that knew the risks and failed to consider them. I dont
68 Post contains images DeltaRNOmd-80 : wow, FP_v2 actually said something intelligent!
69 Post contains images CPDC10-30 : Nikolaki, I would say thay I hope you never reproduce, but the way you swing, I dont have to worry about that... Listen, don't be bad mouthing my bud
70 Archie Bunker : Queens, New York
71 An-225 : I had my point. And if you don't want to have sex - cut off your dick, I already said it.
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