Stretch 8 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2561 posts, RR: 18 Posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1260 times:
An increasing number of heavy thinkers inside and outside of Washington have pointed out recently that U.S. military commitments in the Persian Gulf, Europe, and Asia are at historic highs. Combined with future potential threats around the world, a large burden exists on the current all-volunteer force.
Most EU and other countries have some sort of compulsory military service. I have a hunch that Bush himself will push for it, but only after (or if) he is safely ensconced for a second term in the White House?
How about it? The A.net majority crowd goes camoflague?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
KROC From United States of America, joined May 2000, 19737 posts, RR: 75 Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1241 times:
Not unless there is NO other choice. I do not want to be on the battlefield and put my life in the hands of someone who is pissed off that they are there and not on their couch. It works during a legitiment war time situation, but being drafted just to go take care of other people will not.
"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again"
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1209 times:
Most EU and other countries have some sort of compulsory military service
???????
It seems a little bit stupid stopping future doctors, engineers, politicians, artists etc from doing their degree or working just because the US pisses someone off 5000 miles away.
Mt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6364 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1201 times:
"Most EU and other countries have some sort of compulsory military service"
True.. but they dont get into half as much trouble as the US.. Look at switzerland... War? never! Huge army? You bet!
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1187 times:
"I do not want to be on the battlefield and put my life in the hands of someone who is pissed off that they are there and not on their couch."
Of course.
Its so much easier waving the flag here while hitting the remote.
I am sure that the poor guys serving in Iraq who are being picked off like ducks in a pond are really thrilled to be there and not on their couch.
KROC From United States of America, joined May 2000, 19737 posts, RR: 75 Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1184 times:
It seems a little bit stupid stopping future doctors, engineers, politicians, artists etc from doing their degree or working just because the US pisses someone off 5000 miles away.
True.. but they dont get into half as much trouble as the US
Let's not forget that the U.S.' help/involvement is ASKED FOR much of the time, either by a certain country or by the U.N. The U.S. does not just send off its Soldeirs, Sailors, Marines and Airmen off to foreign lands because a country is pissed at us.
"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again"
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1177 times:
Yeah that's fair enough, but if it forces your country to get every single 18 year old, no matter how much potential they have as a doctor, scientist, whatever, to suit up and go fight overseas, why not say no?! Things are getting desperate if you need every teenager in the army.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1172 times:
"Let's not forget that the U.S.' help/involvement is ASKED FOR much of the time, either by a certain country or by the U.N."
True. Well, sometimes.
But given the fact that we have hundreds of thousands of military personnel in the Middle East alone, with demands for more soldiers in the works, how are we going to sustain this continuing protection of our oil...uhh...vital interests?
The solution: track down the Rah rah rah folks from those FBI file pictures of pro-war rallies, put em in a uniform, and fly them on the first C-5A to Baghdad.
KROC From United States of America, joined May 2000, 19737 posts, RR: 75 Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1157 times:
Yeah that's fair enough, but if it forces your country to get every single 18 year old, no matter how much potential they have as a doctor, scientist, whatever, to suit up and go fight overseas, why not say no?! Things are getting desperate if you need every teenager in the army.
777236ER. Please come correct with an argument. Nothing is forcing every single 18 year old into military service. The U.S. does NOT need every single teenage in the military. Where, or how you came upon that gem is beyond me. Oh, and for the record, the military has doctors, scientists and whatever as well.
True. Well, sometimes.
But given the fact that we have hundreds of thousands of military personnel in the Middle East alone, with demands for more soldiers in the works, how are we going to sustain this continuing protection of our oil...uhh...vital interests?
The solution: track down the Rah rah rah folks from those FBI file pictures of pro-war rallies, put em in a uniform, and fly them on the first C-5A to Baghdad.
Jaysit, you do make good arguments, well accept for the oil bit, as even chronic Bush/GOP hater Alpha 1 agrees its not all about oil but I digress. The current situation in Iraq is called a conflict, which the military prepares for and is prepared for. Personel wise, equipment wise and such (oh, and the U.S. tropps are not "rapidly dwindling" down over there). It's obvious you have never served, because of your lack of actual military planning facts. I served while Mr. Clinton was drastically reducing our military, and no I'm not bashing him, just stating a fact. Under Bill, we were asked to do more and more with less and less. Bush's use of the military is nothing new to any President (former) of the U.S. The only break I give Bush is the fact he has increased pay raises much more than Bill was, and he is increasing again the size of the military. And while that might not sit well with you thinking its just so we can go more countries, its actually just so we can have the appropriate number of military personal to do their job....in war or peace time.
Of course.
Its so much easier waving the flag here while hitting the remote.
I am sure that the poor guys serving in Iraq who are being picked off like ducks in a pond are really thrilled to be there and not on their couch.
Sorry, but "those guys" volunteered to serve, and they knew what they were getting into. And I would suspect for the most part, that for these men and women, that there are worse ways than dying for your country, no matter what so civilian thinks about the reasons they are over their for.
The solution: track down the Rah rah rah folks from those FBI file pictures of pro-war rallies, put em in a uniform, and fly them on the first C-5A to Baghdad.
Yeah, that wouild be easy right? Not like maybe some of these haven't actually already served their country.
"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again"
Stretch 8 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2561 posts, RR: 18 Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1140 times:
A spirited debate, as I expected on this topic. Imagine the same debate on an obstacle course in basic training . . . with a leather-necked drill instructor screaming at you.
Does the male side of the "Britney-Pepsi Generation" need a wake-up call?
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
So, 500,000 troops needed in Iraq, but 140,000 US troops there.
They must be over-extended, you have US troops using captured AK-47s as AFV crews are issued with a only a couple of M-16s, but also pistols, Many AFV crews are having to do infantry work, so they need more than a pistol, hence the AK-47s.
Talking of AFVs, seen those trucks carrying a large squad of troops, very vunerable in a soft skin vehicle, it seems there is nothing between a Bradley (often inappropriate) and a Humvee, at least in the US Army, the USMC have wheeled armoured vehicles I think.
The British Army had this problem in Northern Ireland 30 years ago, but they pulled a load of Saracen armoured vehicles out of storage. Now they are using Saxons in Iraq.
All this points to a massive underestimation of the likely aftermath of war in Iraq, attacks started out as former regime diehards loosing off with AKs and RPGs, now attacks are much more sophisticated, pointing to an influx of terrorists into the chaos of Iraq as it's a good way to hit the US.
You have policy run by a bunch of think tank vets, not combat vets (Bush, Cheney and the rest managed NOT to go to Vietnam funnily enough), hearing what they wanted to hear from a few unrepresentative Iraqi exiles.
Unless you want the situation in Iraq to get worse, a draft may be needed, if only to release regular troops from other duties allowing reinforcement of Iraq by them.
Of course the US could ask others to help, only they've pissed off a lot of nations that usually would provide decent numbers of forces, anyway, why put their troops under a command that seems not to be too good at low-intensity, counter-insurgency operations.
A few token troops from some small nations won't cut it, from what we are seeing the Bush team are starting to realize this, Iraqi oil won't pay for all the reconstruction either, even without further sabotage, so it is going to be tax $
Sad for the poor Iraqi people, if it comes to Bush being re-elected or saving them, well what do you think will be the choice?
But I agree, those who really got off on this war (you know who you are) could use an attitude overhaul by being drafted.
9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 9 Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1125 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW DATABASE EDITOR
Here in Croatia we unfortunately have compulsory military service. As for USofA I do not really care, but forcing people
to go to army is actually a form of slavery, leftover from past.
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
Bobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 7 Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1114 times:
Does the male side of the "Britney-Pepsi Generation" need a wake-up call?
So girls don't have a role to play in your military-political plan?
Two different solutions to the shortage:
1. Try not to annoy so many other countries, or intervene with force before giving diplomacy a fair try; then you'd need less troops on the ground;
2. Try to play nicely with allies, and they would be more willing to contribute towards international commitments.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1109 times:
"And I would suspect for the most part, that for these men and women, that there are worse ways than dying for your country, no matter what so civilian thinks about the reasons they are over their for."
Kroc --- but thats just the crux of the matter. Are those young men who signed up for the military in a show of patriotism (or because they really had no other choice) REALLY dying for the glory of the red/white & Blue? Or are they dying because we're spending our human capital to keep rich Saudi Sheikhs fat and happy on their gold plated commodes even as their own people despise them? In the end it all seems like a farce.
Unfortunately, having a mandatory draft can't address the failures of foreign policy initiatives.
"Under Bill, we were asked to do more and more with less and less."
A philosophy that Bill Cohen was for based on research by the RAND foundation as well as the Pentagon policy wonks. And one that is currently seconded by Rummie. It appears that Bill/Bill/Rand/Pentagon thought that the US would be going in for quick surgical strikes like Ripley in Aliens II with super-duper techno gizmos - and win. Alas, we are having a real life version of Aliens being played out in Iraq.
Getting back to the thread, I think that one year of military training might instill a great deal of citizenship and discipline into our culture, but on a practical level it would be much too expensive and inconvenient to carry out. And think of all the lawsuits. Thats a can of worms that no one wants to open.
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1104 times:
I think that one year of military training might instill a great deal of citizenship and discipline into our culture
What's 'citizenship'? Promotion of love of Big Brother......uh.......the US?
And what do you mean by disicpline? Is brainwashing teenagers to obey orders from higher ranking officials really the way to ensure future generations are free-thinkers?
KROC From United States of America, joined May 2000, 19737 posts, RR: 75 Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1095 times:
I think that one year of military training might instill a great deal of citizenship and discipline into our culture
I'm short on time, but I had to comment on the above line, as 777236ER is absolutely clueless and is getting closer to making Indianguy have credibility.
Bro, military service is great for building love of country and self, and can be a good tool to instill discipline into today's youth. It has nothing to do with brainwashing. Its obvious you have never served either, but would rather criticise what you know nothing about.
Oh and chief, if you have a job and a boss.....you follow orders too. Horrendous "example".
"Never tell anybody outside the family what you're thinking again"
777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1087 times:
777236ER is absolutely clueless and is getting closer to making Indianguy have credibility.
Harsh language, don't you think? Goes against one of the rules you're meant to be inforcing.
Bro, military service is great for building love of country and self, and can be a good tool to instill discipline into today's youth
Shouldn't PARENTS instill values of patriotism and discipline in children? Blanket military service won't solve problems that are caused by breakdown of families in the US (and the UK).
Its obvious you have never served either, but would rather criticise what you know nothing about.
Isn't the primary mission of military training to train people how to kill?
Bobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1085 times:
Instilling discipline in them is just a fringe benefit of sending non-volunteers to some foreign country to be sniped at, yes?
You'd get a lot better value for money with a big recruitment drive and fatter payroll. A huge intake of indifferent/unwilling Britney-Pepsiites is not going to make a good peacekeeping and/or fighting force overnight.
Mt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6364 posts, RR: 7 Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1080 times:
"Oh and chief, if you have a job and a boss.....you follow orders too. Horrendous "example". "
Yes.. but you can quit at any time. You are not forced to be there. Unless its slavery.
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1077 times:
"And what do you mean by disicpline? Is brainwashing teenagers to obey orders from higher ranking officials really the way to ensure future generations are free-thinkers?"
Thats a good point. But we did have a mandatory draft in WWII and Vietnam, and we haven't had a problem churning out generations of free thinkers. Many of whom who did actually serve in combat. Furthermore, I think that it would do much to erode the phony patriotism that we have to endure today in the United States and would also serve to culturally refresh our military institutions (I am sure that many will disagree with this proposition). That having been said, its impractical for a nation of 280 million people with very diverse views on the role of the military in this country.
Aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8394 posts, RR: 47 Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1064 times:
Don't get me started... If you guys really want to fuck up your armed forces and give 18 or so year old males one hell of an unfair treatment, restart the draft. I'm freaking mad at the German politicians who are in favour of the draft, mostly because nobody fucking cares whether it's unfair, anachronistic or a different form of slavery.
Oh, and if you ever get to hear the name "Franz Müntefering", he's the only guy in this world i really want to kick in the butt. He said something like "My heart is so set on the draft...!" (correct term?) GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!
And yes, I'm currently, at this moment, a conscript doing "civilian service", which basically means saving our rotten social system from collapsing for ridiculous pay; although even those 8 € per day (round about) are too much for some...
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
Goingboeing From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4875 posts, RR: 19 Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1035 times:
Yeah that's fair enough, but if it forces your country to get every single 18 year old, no matter how much potential they have as a doctor, scientist, whatever, to suit up and go fight overseas, why not say no?! Things are getting desperate if you need every teenager in the army.
The USA sent a lot of future doctor's, scientists, etc. over to Europe and the Pacific during WWII, and they sent a lot over to a little place called "Vietnam" back in the 60's and 70's. Not many of the really wanted to be there. But I think that too many of these 16-20 year old "patriots" who are gung ho for kicking that Iraqi ass might have a change of heart when THEIR number is pulled in the draft lottery. And IMHO, the draft WILL be coming back to support our "peace" efforts in the middle east.
25 Jcs17: And yes, I'm currently, at this moment, a conscript doing "civilian service", which basically means saving our rotten social system from collapsing f
26 Jaysit: "Jaysit, actually you and your military-loathing leftists are in a very small minority. Despite what you think, the majority of Democrats and Republic
27 Aloges: "Nothing better having to work off the economic failures of socialism, eh?" Smarty, this has to do with a lot more things than socialism. It's not lik
28 Jhooper: In my view, mandatory military service goes against the principle of freedom, which supposedly people are in the service to defend in the first place.
29 KROC: Harsh language, don't you think? Goes against one of the rules you're meant to be inforcing. What was harsh about it? The truthfulness of it? I mean t
30 Alpha 1: As with many other things, I can see going both ways. I don't necessarily want a draft, because the volunteer forces have served the U.S. well. You ha
31 Superfly: My earlier post was deleted but that's OK. I may have hurt someone's feelings but my point has been made by a few members above. Here is an interestin
32 Jaysit: Service in the military does not necessarily create armies of robotrons as some would have us believe. Case in point: The ex-legal counsel at the Huma
33 DeltaSFO: I won't even bother commenting on Charlie Rangel's proposal other than to say that I had a great deal of respect for him and I was very disappointed t
34 KROC: And, any comment about our current occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania aside, it's obvious that the military, with committments in two continuing conflicts
35 Superfly: DeltaSFO: I won't even bother commenting on Charlie Rangel's proposal other than to say that I had a great deal of respect for him and I was very disa
36 DeltaSFO: 'fly... I never said they did start with him. Segregation in the military was awful. Forcing anybody into the Vietnam War, regardless of the color of
37 Superfly: DeltaSFO: Charlie Rangel isn't playing any racial politics, he is speaking out the concerns of people in his district.
38 Jaysit: "How many execs at Halliburton had children on the front lines in Iraq this year?" None. "We can blame the prior occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. fo
39 777236ER: What was harsh about it? The truthfulness of it? I mean this coming from someone who cannot go more than 3 posts without an F-bomb is crying about rul
40 KROC: Swearing's against the rules? You do it just as much as me, KROC. You're a moderator - if you use harsh language the mods can hardly expect non-av to
41 777236ER: Also, I noticed how you left out how my comparison was "harsh". What's "harsh" is pretty much subjective...and is probably a battle I wouldn't win aga
42 KROC: You'd love it, would you KROC? Careful, you're giving Indianguy credibility here I'm not against the military killing to protect my country, I didn't
43 AIR757200: We already have Selective Service here in the U.S. Didn't all of you when you turned 18 sign your Selective Service cards (U.S. Citizens)? I did- I go
44 L-188: I didn't sign a selective service card. Didn't have too, enlisted instead
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