DeltaSFO From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2488 posts, RR: 23 Posted (10 years 3 months 1 week ago) and read 954 times:
Palestinian prime minister Abbas resigns
Founder of Hamas injured in Israeli strike
Saturday, September 6, 2003 Posted: 7:18 PM EDT (2318 GMT)
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- In a day that further tattered the beat-up road map to Mideast peace, Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas resigned and Israel wounded the founder of Hamas in a missile strike on Saturday.
Abbas submitted his resignation and that of his government to Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, who later told Palestinian legislators in Ramallah that Abbas and his Cabinet will be operating as a caretaker government.
Although Arafat stopped short of saying he accepted Abbas' resignation in his remarks, some Palestinian legislators told CNN that invoking a caretaker government is tantamount to accepting it.
Palestinian officials, however, are not discounting the possibility that Abbas could eventually maintain his position as prime minister, with Arafat asking Abbas to appoint a new government.
Abbas had offered hope for a U.S.-backed step-by-step peace plan, or the Mideast road map, but said all along that he did not want to be a figurehead prime minister. During his four months in office, he has been in a power struggle with Arafat, particularly over control of Palestinian security forces to rein in militants conducting terror attacks against Israeli civilians.
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (10 years 3 months 1 week ago) and read 942 times:
As long as Arafat is involved, there will be no peace.
Do you seriously think Sharon is trying for peace, what with daily gunship attacks in crowded streets for the sole purpose of killing one terrorist operative when instead the allegedly revered Mossad could simply assassinate him in a cleaner matter instead!?
Both sides are terrorists, be it with tanks or suicide bombers. Until we get some moderates who can get their heads out of their own asses on both sides, the fighting won't stop.
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 36 Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 937 times:
How come Israel gets no credit for not retaliating for the first 4 Hamas bombings this time round, while they also dismantled almost 100 settlements and released hundred of Palestinian prisoners, yet all the Palestinians had to do was not blow anyone up, and try to arrest terrorists.
How many Hamas bombings ? - 5
How many Palestinian terrorists arrested? - 0
It wasn't until the 5th bombing that Israel said, alright enough is enough.
Folks, please remember that the middle east needs an arab conflict, as without Israel to paint as the bad guy, they have no justification for the fact that all the people are starving...even though I fail to see how people in Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Syria etc are starving because of Israel. The Palestinians for right or for wrong, it is easy to understand their issues with Israel as they have an active conflict, but the others dont, and if you go to most of these countries (as I have...) you will find out yourself that the average Joe Shmoe on the street believes that his or her poverty and sufference is because of Israel.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 3, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 927 times:
I'm starting to believe that as long as Arafat is in power or even in the territories, there will never be peace in the region. As long as he remains behind the scenes running this whole gig for the Palestinians, there will never be an end to terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
It is time for the Israeli government to expel Arafat, and the U.S. needs to show its support for such an action.
During this so called "cease fire", 29 people were killed, which includes 23 Israelis, 5 Americans, and a Bulgarian foreign worker. This includes the suicide bombing on a bus full or school children in Jerusalem. During the cease fire, Israel closed down and dismantled dozens of settlements, released scores of prisoners, and completely withdrew from the Gaza Strip and portions of the West Bank. What did they get for it? Dead school children in Jerusalem.
Right now, Hamas gave Israel the green light to do whatever it wants with its latest actions. They have shown that they wouldn't obey a cease fire. They wont be trusted in the future, and Israel wont negotiate with the Palestinians until Hamas disarms or is destroyed. Israel has every right to hunt down every last member of Hamas, just like the U.S. had the right to do it with the Taliban and Al-Qaida.
If Israel has to kill a terrorist to save every Israeli civilian that might be killed by the terrorist, so be it. As for the peace process, its a shame Abbas had to resign, but he never had any true power anyways, as he was constantly wrestling for control with Arafat.
Get rid of Arafat, and then maybe peace will be an option in the future.
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 922 times:
Personally, I see this as another opportunity that was on a plate for the Palestinians to take with the slightest of efforts, and once again they spurned it. The world at large saw it, Arafat will now be exiled and they will try again.
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 5, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 921 times:
Not only did they lose a great chance at improving their view around the world, they completely blew it and turned it in the opposite direction. The world is very slowly and very surely losing sympathy with their cause, especially with their behaviour during the "cease fire".
Its too bad, because all summer I thought that this was the step that was needed to seeing a cemented peace agreement.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 867 times:
Israel has every right to hunt down every last member of Hamas, just like the U.S. had the right to do it with the Taliban and Al-Qaida.
Just curious why this logic holds true for Israel hunting down Palestinian terrorists and for the US hunting down terrorists in Afghanistan, but the US continues to "urge restraint" for India everytime there is a possibility that they may go after Pakistan based terrorists?
What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?
Racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4851 posts, RR: 20 Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 836 times:
Personally, I've stopped to really care about it. There won't be peace if not a miracle happens and the attitudes on both sides change dramatically.
I think all the money the EU & US pump in there is wasted. Wait until they achieve peace on their own or until only one of them is left, and then support them. What's the sense of funding an airport when it get's destroyed 2 months later anyway?
Tbar220 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7011 posts, RR: 27 Reply 16, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 824 times:
Who's the terrorists?
The terrorists are the people who blow up a bus full of school children during a "cease fire". The terrorists are the people who have used over 100 suicide bombers in the last three years to achieve their stated goal of destroying the state of Israel. I'm talking about the groups Hamas and Jihad. It seems pretty obvious to me.
Delta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 819 times:
Is it the people fighting to get an oppresive force out of its cities & land
The formula for peace is quite simple .... Palestinians stop terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, and the IDF withdraws from the occupied territories. It has happened many times before. But if the attacks continue, and the PA makes no effort to even try to stop these attacks, the IDF returns in force. What else can they do?
As far as Sharon not wanting peace, that is really irrelevant. Sharon only came on the scene 2 years ago. What about the prior 53 years? There have been lots of dovish Israeli leaders during that time, but the Arabs have always believed they could defeat Israel and so never had any desire to seek peace. The formula for peace has been on the table from day 1.
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 36 Reply 20, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 787 times:
When BOTH Israel and the Palestinians signed up for the "Road Map" (which they both did), they both (at least on paper) agreed to do certain things in order to acheive peace with each other. Israel was required to dismantle settlements, lift blockades, and release Palestinian prisoners. The Palestinians were required to stop suicide bombings and try and crack down on militants. At this point, BOTH signed up for a deal, that essentially tried to leave past issues in the past, and start building for the future. BOTH parties signed up for this.
- Israel dismantled nearly 100 settlements (facing lots of pressure from settlers etc, but continued doing it).
- Israel released hundreds of Palestinian Prisoners.
- Israel withrew from Gaza, West Bank and numerous other places as required.
The Palestinians did not arrest one militant
Hamas and Fatah launched numerous attacks including 5 suicide bombings.
Israel did NOT retaliate until the 5th bombing, when it became clear to them that Hamas had no intention of honoring the agreed ceasefire.
There is no defense for Hamas, there is no defense for Islamic Jihad, and there is no defence for Arafat's Fatah movement. They conducted all of these without provocation (since the signing of the Road Map)
For the anti-Israel brigade to pipe in now with both are terrorists, and that past things Israel did are the justification for what Hamas is doing, just doesn't stick, as BOTH agreed from the day that they signed the Road Map, that going forward, they would not do these things.
Once again, the Palestinians were offered peace, they were offered a Homeland with Statehood and potential for prosperity, and once again they did not take it. Whether it is the Palestinian people, or the Palestinian leadership that ran this campaign of suicide bombings, they did do it, and once again, the Palestinian people have sadly been led astray by their leadership. I have no idea if it was Abbas or Arafat that was the problem, but you have to wonder why Arafat kept tying the hands of Abbas, and kept him from acheiving any of the things that the Palestinians agreed to do.
The difference for the Palestinians this time around, is that they did it with the whole world watching, and there are already changes being made in how people deal with the Palestinian / Israeli crisis, in that the Palestinians played their hand so to speak, and sadly for the average Palestinian the world has called their bluff.
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (10 years 3 months 6 days ago) and read 772 times:
Boeing4ever's BRIGHT military analysis.......Really VERY interesting.
If the United States of America were to assassinate someone in a crowded area, you can be as sure as hell that we're not gonna send helicopter gunships in unless there was no other choice. The Mossad managed to assassinate all the terrorists responsible for the attacks on the Munich Olympics. All of a sudden they can't stop a terrorist planner in a car WITHIN Israeli/Palestinian territory!? The Mossad should have had plenty of time to set up shop in the Palestinian territories and should be able to do a cleaner job than some some Israeli teen in an Apache.
And I guess the same can also be said concerning Ben Laden and the US.....(?)
No, it can't. We're not going around building a security fence in Afghanistan, and we have every intention of LEAVING the country as a peaceful, functioning democracy when our mission is complete. You also don't see us bulldozing houses. Otherwise, we'll leave Afghanistan as a stable democracy capable of fighting off the Taliban and Al Qaida alone.
Indianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 757 times:
The exit of Abbas need not be the end of the peace process. The onus is now on Israel. It MUST accept Arafat as the true representative of the Palestinian people and negotiate with them. That is the only way out.
Ultimately, it is the Palestinian people who will decide who leads them. Washington or Israel cannot and should not even try to select a representative for the Palestinians, which is what both Washington and its client state Israel are doing.
Arafat has remained the leader of the Palestinian people for so many decades because the Palestinian people want him there. The churlish behavior displayed by Israel’s current leadership of refusing to acknowledge Arafat’s position is a sign of a certain insecurity. The systematic Tarnishing of Arafat’s name and reputation as a “terrorist” by the US-Israel axis is seen in much of the democratic world for what it really is: the ‘normal’ blackening of personalities that accompanies all imperialist campaigns.
I ask why Arafat should be excluded from talks. Why is Israel seeking to push aside Arafat? Either it wants to create an un-surmountable roadblock in the peace process by making demands that the Palestinians cannot meet and thus refuse to make further concessions, or it wants to deal a blow to the Palestinian freedom struggle and continue its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. Same thing in the end!
Arafat’s alleged History is being trotted out as a reason for setting him aside. But ironically, a closer examination of the Israeli leadership, in particular the master criminal Ariel Sharon, would show that the Palestinians can make a equal if not stronger case to call for a dismissal of Ariel Sharon as a precondition to further talks.
Lets take a look at Ariel Sharons past. I am quoting excerpts from a number of books on Israel’s history that I picked up from the local British Council Library.
The name of Ariel Sharon first comes out in an incident in a village called Qibya way back in 1953, where his platoon and he himself won decorations for the “heroic” task of burning down over 45 houses and butchering over 69 innocent civilians, half of them women and children. Even a brief glance at the tiny paragraph listing out the Qibya massacre is enough to send shivers down anybody’s spine as it amply describes the bestiality of the man who is today Israel’s Prime Minister. Looking at this particular incident, it wouldn’t be inappropriate to label Sharon as the “Butcher of Qibya”.
His name appears again in another essay called “Our Gods Cried”: a horrifying account of the mass murders in the Palestinian refugee camps in Sabra and Shatila masterminded personally by, guess who: Ariel Sharon!!
The latest abomination in a long list of his unforgivable crimes against humanity is the state sponsored mass murder of innocents, including women and newborn babies in the occupied Palestinian town of Jenin just last year.
Of course, apologists will bring forward a long list of Arafat’s ‘crimes’ as well, but that’s not my point. Both sides have behaved badly. And if the peace process has to be taken forward, then both sides have to unconditionally agree to come to the discussion table. The Palestinians must adopt a non-violent freedom struggle and give up terrorism. The American remote control over Israel is part of the problem, and hence America must be set aside if a solution has to be found. So Israel on its part must cut the apron strings tying it to America.
In any case America has been carrying out classic “Balance of Power” politics to ensure its influence in all regions of importance, and not just in the middle-east. Israel is part of American strategy in the Middle-East. Al the tax benefits given to Jewish charities operating in the US and the subsidizing of Israel is payment for a role that Israel has been playing to perfection since 1948. So resolving the issue completely is not in American interest. Nor is it in their interest to ensure victory of any one party. Hence the latest round of antics scripted to perfection by the US State Department: trying to appear neutral and all that, when it is clear as hell that they are not! Both Israel and Palestinian leaders have to curry favour with Washington. The sizable Jewish lobby in the US ensures that it will always be an unequal battle. Hence Israeli actions of demolitions is merely “Slum Clearance”, while any reactions from Palestinian freedom fighters is “terrorism”.
To solve the West-Asian problem, one has to go to the core. What is the source of this “problem”? A struggle of the kind that Palestinians have been relentlessly waging for the past half century would not have been sustained if the core issue had not been a denial of justice. It is for this reason that even the wholesale backing of Israel by the Americans has not managed to cow down the Palestinian people. So lets get this straight: There can be no peace without justice. And yet, it is precisely this:JUSTICE, that has ben singularly lacking in all the previous American attempts to force a solution down arab throats, whether it was Madrid, Washington, Oslo or Wye River. And does the latest “Roadmap” scripted by the tarnstalantic axis-of-evil of Bush-Blair do anything to resolve this core issue? Nopes. For all the verbal semantics, the Roadmap fails to address the core issue, and at the end of the road, the Palestine as proposed by Bush is lacking in all the attributes of a nation state. AT most it can be another version of Panchayati Raj as sen in Nepal (Village level self governance).
Hence even the roadmap wont solve the problems, because it does not address the core issue or indeed ANY of the issues affecting the Palestinians. What they are being offered is a moth-eaten Palestine, and warning: take it or leave it, because Israel has powerful allies! Not very helpful.
The only solution to the vexed West Asian problem is the one proposed by Jawaharlal Nehru: establish a federal DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR state on the Indian model with autonomous Jewish and Arab units each with local self government looking after all aspects of governance except defense and foreign affairs which could be administered by the federal government chosen from BOTH units on the British Westminster model as it is done in India.